what happen scott?

[Grande]

where did my post about G-mans petition go?

[Steel Shootin']

I was going to send you a PM, but got busy. It is evidently an issue that is of considerable controvery in the dive industry. Taking threads down leave a bad taste in my mouth, so it's almost never done, but I wanted to find out more about the issue before it pissed off a lot of people. Of course, taking threads down pisses people off, too, so it's a no win situation for me.

[Grande]

its no big deal. i certainly am not pissed, but i am not sure i understand. As someone else who replied to the original thread stated, they would like to hear the different viewpoints of others, as would I. And as i stated in the thread i have no problem with LDS's and choose to support them over the less expensive internet retailers when financialy able. I think the only people who are gonna get mad are the manufacturers. I doubt any of them are members, except of course Spear One, who I doubt forces LDS's to sell his product at a certain price or drop their dealership. Even if he did I would like to hear his opinion and reasoning behind it. Actaully, i would like to hear it anyway since i am sure he knows more about it than me. I would like to think its possible to discuss these type of things on spearboard without getting everyone al fired up, at least as long as G-man doesnt show up:eek: :cool:

[kitefisherman]

I'm sure it's not easy for Scott to make these calls. This is a bit more dicey than your average camel toe.

Yet I tend to side with Grande on this one. Why do the manufacturers sell to certain of the internet retailers and allow them to continue to sell their products at a price lower than the mainstream U.S. distributors? Is it because these products are being funneled through Europe? Is it because European Union's laws won't tolerate price fixing? Is it because the U.S. Attorney General won't (or can't) prosecute the manufacturers for some sort of antitrust or other trade violations? I don't know the answers to any of these questions. It just seems to me that the market (supply and demand) should be allowed to determine the price of goods - isn't that the American way? I really feel for us as the consumers and for the local dive shops who apparently are not allowed to compete with the lower prices. Perhaps the retailers can explore the possibility of joining in a class action suit against the manufacturers who apparently have placed them in such a disadvantageous economic position. Perhaps it is time for the manufacturers to explain or defend their policies. All I know is that the situation isn't a secret nor is silence going to make it go away. If we don't ask questions, I doubt we will ever get answers. The LDSs might not be able afford to press the issue for fear that they might lose their lines. Perhaps the best thing we can do in this instance is for us as the consumers to press the issue on behalf of ourselves and the LDSs. Maybe there is a good explanation for the way things are; if so, there would be a lot less controversy if that explanation were made public.

Sorry for making your job harder Scott. I have purposely avoided making this post libelous. I understand that you might face some sort of liability if it were. But, I don't think that you will lose any sponsors on this one. The consumers and the LDSs are on the same side, and I doubt that you expect the major manufacturers to become sponsors. I would like to be able to buy a regulator or computer without making a choice between getting the best price and expressing well deserved gratitude to my LDS. I'd like to be able to do both at the same time.

I know that this is controversial. I have said my peace. Edit away if you must. I will understand although I may not agree.

[Steel Shootin']

Hey Guys, you're free to state your opinions. I'm just going to state that spearboard is not taking a position on this issue. I have always tried to help the local dive shops in anyway I can on this site (name a single other forum on the web with a FREE area for dive shops to list items). Hell, even the forums with free areas for individual members have changed policies to try to profit. I've established a "Friends of Spearboard" area for people to send me their links to post (no charge, of course), and I've encouraged people to use their logos as avatars, and welcome them putting their links in their signatures.

This dive industry is a tough business with a lot of competition coming at them from every angle, and I don't want spearboard to be yet another thorn in their side. So, I'm just going to remain neutral on this, personally. You guys are always free to speak your mind, however.

[blue gun]

Being a cave diver I have run into this many times. If you run deep with the cavers you will find diver-x who will sell you
scuba-z brand equipment from the back of his trailer for a much discounted price. diver-x doesn't give a shit about city LDS bullshit. I mentioned this to diver-y 'who owned a shop in the city' he said, he couldn't compete with diver-x prices because of high overhead in the city. Two years go by and I notice diver-y starting to sell scuba-z brand equipment almost as low as
diver-x. "WOW" I say, things are looking up for diver-y, but then
scuba-z brands asshole rep. found out that diver-y is selling scuba-z too cheap and now diver-y can't sell scuba-z brand equipment anymore.


Please state the value of X Y and Z.

This story doest not express the opinion of scubaboard and is probably bullshit anyway.





:confused:

[slipknot]

WOW! You need to get back to work:confused:

[dive4food]

The great american free market system called price fixing. Gotta love it.

[fernandezh]

To Scott,

1. Freedom of Speech. One of the things that I love about this message board is that there is little or censorship or people's ideas regardless of what is considered "the norm". This isn't always the case though. On a Freediver forum site, in the off-topics section, I once expressed my personal opinion as to why I think we spend too much money on the Space Program. I expressed it in a logical and professional manner. Would you believe I almost got kicked off the board because my ideas did not "conform" to what everybody else on the board thought? This is what I like about Spearboard, that everybody here is allowed to express their own opinions and beliefs (as long as it is not offensive i.e. racially motivated comments). This is freedom of speech at its finest and I am sure I speak for the rest of the guys when I say that we appreciate it.

2. LDS's vs. Websites. IMHO, America's economic system is a form of entrepreneurial Darwinism or the Business System's Survival of the Fittest. It is because of this entrepreneurial Darwinism that has our economy as the strongest in the world. Those businesses who are able to exploit sound business practices and find their niche in a sector of business are the ones who succeed. 20 years ago LDS's stood to make a profit, there was less competition and one shop didn't have much more of an advantage over the other. Presently, the market has too many dive shops for any one of them in an area to flourish because of the competition. Furthermore, there are the Websites who have lower overhead costs, are able to push more products to a broader area (the rest of the world) and therefore able to sell more products at a cheaper price. The consumer is going to buy products where they feel they are going to get the best deal. Some consumers would rather purchase their dive gear at a higher price at a LDS because of a sense of loyalty. But most consumers who buy their dive gear at a web or auction site do so because of the lower prices.
True, the LDS's don't seem to have a chance unless they change their business practices to give themselves the same or better advantage as the web-based dive shops. The costs of opening, maintaining, and advertising an e-commerce site is very low. Start-up is less than $1,000 if you have a web-consultant do it for you. Dive trips can also be advertised in the same manner. I just don't know why there isn't more initiative on the LDS's part to expand their customer base. There are currently less than 10 online dive shops that I know of. If current trends continue the way they are, the flow of dive consumer dollars will go in the direction of where they can get the best deals for their dollars. Entrepeneurial Darwinism. If we petition to support businesses that can't survive just because they can't find their niche, then we are reverting to a state-supported economy: COMMUNISM. All commie bastards must die. . . (sorry about that).
I love my LDS and the guys who run it, but my loyalty has its limits when I can buy my dive computer for $356 online as compared to the same dive computer for $975 at my LDS. I have a mouth to feed and a spearfishing habit to support. My .02 cents worth. Any opinions?


Hector Fernandez

[Steel Shootin']

Rest assured that spearboard will continue to be a place where you can speak your mind. I took down the first thread in an effort to get a handle on some concerns. That was a poor choice on my part. I apologize to Grande for that decision.

The ability to speak one's mind is in large part why spearboard was started. Many of us felt "gagged" on other public forums. Some people have asked me why I don't use the censor function built into this board to filter profanity. Again, it's because I want people to express themselves in their own words, and I don't like any form of censorship. If it got out of hand, I'd have to deal with it. So far, it hasn't.

As spearboard grows, there will be times I have to censor or delete posts for nudity, racial slurs, personal threats, slander, etc., ----but it won't ever again be for someone expressing his viewpoint on an issue.

Scott

[kitefisherman]

First, let me say that I agree with you - on both points.

The problem that the LDSs face isn't a matter of not having the efficiencies of ecommerce. The problem (as I understand it) is that the LDS's distributorship agreements with the manufacturers prohibits the LDS from selling products below a certain price, and these restrictions are enforced by the manufacturers. If violated, the LDS may lose its distribution privileges.

The low cost ecommerce websites are "pirates" of a sort. It is my understanding that they get around the price contols by obtaining goods intended for the European market (where there apparently no price controls) and selling them via the internet to U.S. consumers. That is why the manufacturers' U.S. divisions will not honor warranty claims on products intended for other than the U.S. market. That is also why some of the online retailers have FAQs stating that they will arrange for warranty service if it is denied in the U.S. Apparently, you may have to send your equipment back to Europe for warranty service and/or if you do not want to pay for parts on annual inspections.

It's not that the LDSs aren't willing to compete. It's that they aren't allowed to. The price controls may have been attractive to the LDSs at the time they entered into their agreements, but now they are biting them in the ass.

[dothanfrogman]

Got that right Scott. Nothing like the rarity of a man admitting he was wrong. No trolling just joshing.

[joens]

I mean with moderating everything .Having to go over dothan's bikini section with a fine tooth comb for things that go over the line .then this .no matter what he does someone is going to complain. I agree that the issue at hand can be a sensitive one being as we have people on the board from all areas of the dive industry,Manufacturers ,dive shops,instructors/divemasters and joe divers.I think taking a time out to think the whole through might have been a good idea.But then I don't know much.
Joens

[kitefisherman]

You have a hard job to do, and you do it well. You will never be able to make everyone happy. You always do your best, and I respect you for it.

Thanks for all your hard work and for designing a board that is so organized, user friendly and able to be accessed for information in so many ways (searches, etc.). I have only had experience with one other board at Yahoo, and yours is light years ahead IMO.

[subdude]

Cumbaya my lord .... cumbayahhhhhhh ....


subdude

[joens]

O lord cumbay ya.

[richhermes]

All in all, everyone here has really been pretty cool. We've only had two trolls that I can think of. Everyone gets along and debate are encouraged and never get into a big flame session. I guess when you have a looser set of "rules" than some of the bigger corporate forums, it's easier to police.
I mean come on, I've had posts unexplainably poofed at one particular corporate fishing forum and the forum admin could not tell me why or who did it. And there was nothing wrong with the post. (Unless bashing G-fishy is a bad thing??!!)

I am happy Scott created this forum. I never thought it would fly, but hell, this place is getting huge. I have learned more in the few months this forum has been up, that it makes this forum invaluable. The networking alone is kickass!

[joens]

In the couple weeks I have been reading this board I have learned more than I have from any other source. You guys know your stuff .
Joens

[Steel Shootin']

Thanks for the comments.

Rich, thanks for not sharing the part about "this will never fly" with me. :D Actually, when I put it up, I figured it would just be a couple of dozen of us rejects from FS over here, but it's caught on with a wider aspect of the spearing community, and has helped my spearing considerably. And, like you said, the networkng is great on this board. I've met and speared with at least 15 guys.

[junior]

This is a great little hole in the wall:p. And I mean that in the best possible way. I've learned a hell of a lot in the last month just reading all the stuff people write about. It has certainly helped me to pass the time I've had on the couch with a broken ankle and now with this cold ass water. Back to opinions in cyberspace...caution is the word because it is too easy to piss someone off if they cannot see your body language and facial expressions when you may try to joke around. I personally think it's kinda pussy to piss off someone who can't do anything but tap out their frustration on a keyboard as opposed to on your face, but that's me. As far as LDSs, they have to do more than sell air fills to stay in business. Air fills are basically a loss for the most part. What dive shop is gonna stick around if all they do is fill tanks and dust their overpriced merchandise? I don't claim to know the solution and I don't like wasting my cash, but how do you keep the convenience of air fills, tank inspections, gear repair and other assorted dive nic-nacs without buying things that really keep them in business? It sounds like some, not all, of the equipment reps are strangling the local dive shops at the diving public's expense. Inhale:D. Alright, I'm done. I think.

[richhermes]

I felt the same as you Scott. I'm glad we were both proven wrong! Maybe "wouldn't fly" is a bit too strong.;)