Have your political/social/religious beliefs ever changed?

[aussie]

After listening/debating with your fellows on this board or other places has your outlook ever changed or altered and if so how?

All to often is seems as thought we believe what we do ne'er to of adopted a different outlook.

I'd love to hear if you have on any topic and if so what was it.

[Marcus]

My religious principles were solidified MANY years ago. Until someone can provide proof of any divine being. I'll just stay agnostic, thank you very much. I'll certainly defend another one's right to believe what they want though.

Politically, yes. I used to be like some of you. I blindly accepted what the MSM said w/o ever giving it another thought. I once thought Soros was a good decent man. I was corrected on that. I thought Al Gore was the best person for President and voted for him. Upon trying to defend my asinine positions, I was forced to research my position. Upon doing so my knowledge improved, my ideas changed, and I began to foment solid principles.
Their is a need for more political talk, not less, especially amongst your peers. If you do not have a forum for political discourse, you are relegated to the confines of the MSM madness. In which there is no discussion or choices but the ones the gov't wants you to have. Our present societal and economic decay is the result.
People need to learn to socially discuss political and religious subjects, respectfully, as it were many years ago...before we had a tell-a-vision telling us what to think, making one slothful when it comes to understanding what your own principles are.
Nothing could be more important NOW than EVER.

[FISHKILL]

I would like to think my "growth" is common to a lot of people as they get older - at 18 thought the world was a wonderful place and that everyone deserved everything they wanted, peace and love, rainbows, save the whales, that anyone with enough money to own a business was rich and should help everyone else. I'd say 45% percent leaning to the left.

At 25, after a few years as a Marine and a few more of working and paying taxes, started to see the world a little differently, realizing that most people in this world would take everything from you that they could possibly get away with if you let 'em, not to believe everything you learned in college or heard on TV, and maybe that the government didn't have my best interest heart. I'd say 10% leaning to the right.

At 40, after working my a$$ off, having kids, running my own business and actually taking the time to question what goes on around me, I have adopted the following attitudes: I'm tired of working to feed those that won't work and those who expect more and more for working less an less, if at all; that "from each according to his ability and to each according to his need" is a verbalization of pure evil; and that most of the government's function is to preserve itself and make more government. Leave me alone and get your hand out of my pocket. I'd say about 75% to the right with a lot of libertarian thrown in.

Maybe others have had different life experiences that have led their "growth" in different directions.

[Hank49]

Ocean_314 has had a big influence on me. Now I always look at hard data, throw out the computer models and am positive that liberals are going to sneak up and burn my house down some night. They'll even travel all the way to Belize to do it.

[J707]

My (lack of) religious beliefs went from considering myself an agnostic to considering myself an atheist...due mainly to a lot of thought on the matter and realizing that agnosticism is essentially just a waffle. I've never personally been able to believe in gods or demons or angels or fairies or Santa.

My social "beliefs" have changed over time as I've met new and different types of people with different backgrounds and grew up. They haven't changed much though; I was raised with a fairly libertarian ethic by my parents and I tend to lean that way today.

My political beliefs used to be conservative-leaning-libertarian. Over the past 3 or 4 years I've come to the conclusion that political "beliefs" are stupid. Politics is a constantly changing dialogue of ideas for society against a constantly changing backdrop of current events and precedents, so having really rigid beliefs and political dogmas is sort of silly. A lot of contrasting political ideologies have great ideas and I think the idea that one is perfect is dangerously naive. The most successful societies in history have had the most flexible political philosophies- the most disastrous had the most rigid.

[Marcus]

The most successful societies in history have had the most flexible political philosophies- the most disastrous had the most rigid.

Care to back up that statement?

[Alashaman]

On major Moral issues like Abortion... I can't think of any reason why they would change. Of course I am on the Pro Life side... so until I really see a reason for killing babies.. I think I good where I am at...

On political issues I have no idea how my parents vote... I started as a republican... then switch and voted for a few democrats... then got my act together and became a libertarian :) When the Republicans and Democrats stop failing... i'll consider moving back

[jackpine savage]

I once voted for Ronald Reagan so I could get into the pants of a girl I knew in college. The sex was just as good as with some real liberal girls I knew but afterwards she always wanted to talk while the girls I was used to wanted to go out and hit the bars afterwards.

[aussie]

i once voted for ronald reagan so i could get into the pants of a girl i knew in college. The sex was just as good as with some real liberal girls i knew but afterwards she always wanted to talk while the girls i was used to wanted to go out and hit the bars afterwards.

lmao

[100days-a-year]

My viewpoint hasn't changed but on specific issues people have provided compelling evidence that has swayed my position.

Religious wise I have my beliefs and really DGAF about yours except to harass the rabid of either end;).

[aussie]

...on specific issues people have provided compelling evidence that has swayed my position.

Such as?

[ocean_314]

I was a die hard liberal in the 70's when liberal meant freedom from big government and big religion.

I am still that die hard liberal, its just the word liberal now means its not my fault i deserve all the free stuff i can get. Screw those evil businessmen, steal all their money! I need it and its not fair that they have more then i do.

Today i vote against big government which is in place now and in the process of taking away all of our freedoms.

The Democratic party has come " a long ways baby"

[ocean_314]

Ocean_314 has had a big influence on me. Now I always look at hard data, throw out the computer models and am positive that liberals are going to sneak up and burn my house down some night. They'll even travel all the way to Belize to do it.

WOW someone taught you basic science !!!!!!!! Congratulations!!!!

[Fernando8884]

Care to back up that statement?

x2, it can't be backed up

[Ethan kills]

x2, it can't be backed up

prove him wrong then.

[yeskaa]

i used to be religious once, but now im better

[toptuna]

i used to be religious once, but now im better

What about when you were in the closet them you came out. lol

[Fernando8884]

prove him wrong then.

Egyptian empire 3150 bce-30 bce 3130 years

Mayan civilization 2000bce-900ad 2900 years

Byzantine empire 1000 years

Roman empire 1100 years plus

Chinese empire 250 bce to present:eek: although some believe it ended in the late 1300's withe the end of imperial china

All had strict political/religious policies and were the most successful. Hopefully we can add the USA to this list.

[100days-a-year]

aussie,just recently Marcus had shown links to some of Rick Perry's lapses into behavior not consistant with my views of the constitution.Not the first time someone has done that.Then again read my sig lines

[Hank49]

WOW someone taught you basic science !!!!!!!! Congratulations!!!!

I do "science" for a living my friend. I was joking. I figure you're not always "firing on all cylinders" but you have a good heart. :D

[Marcus]

Egyptian empire 3150 bce-30 bce 3130 years

Mayan civilization 2000bce-900ad 2900 years

Byzantine empire 1000 years

Roman empire 1100 years plus

Chinese empire 250 bce to present:eek: although some believe it ended in the late 1300's withe the end of imperial china

All had strict political/religious policies and were the most successful. Hopefully we can add the USA to this list.

Good post, Fernando. I knew you had it in you. :D

[ocean_314]

I do "science" for a living my friend. I was joking. I figure you're not always "firing on all cylinders" but you have a good heart. :D

LMAO and you believe in global warming????????? What kind of science do you do? Government funded?

[ocean_314]

I do "science" for a living my friend. I was joking. I figure you're not always "firing on all cylinders" but you have a good heart. :D

We do cutting edge mortality research for private industry. Right now i am doing the marketing to defeat a computer model built by the competition as they try to hold onto their clients. Its a war i fully plan to win.

The computers have been a blessing and a curse to the world of science. My wife can crunch 12 million records in an hour. Yet anyone can build a computer model and create scam science that looks believable.

And the curse of IBM buying SPSS......

[yeskaa]

What about when you were in the closet them you came out. lol

Marcus Bachmann`s clinic fixed me

[Griswold]

I generally stay away from political discussions, but I heard something on NPR a couple weeks ago that changed the way I look at an important topic.

The show as about the fall of the Berlin Wall. In a nut shell, they stated that everyone thought that since they were all Germans those on the east and west sides of the wall would quickly become one people again.

Well, funny thing, apparently it's not that easy. Many of those who grew up on the east side of the wall have had a hard time learning how to "be free". They have trouble learning how to function in a society where things are not handed to you. One of the guests on the show thought that it would take another generation for the "Easties" to really fit in again.

Here are my thoughts on it. I think everyone will agree that as a group Germans are a pretty hard working, capable lot. Thus, we don't have any race non-sense to deal with on this one, and even they were badly affected by "being taken care of". I think that any social program MUST look at the impact on personal motivation or it is likely to do more harm than good.

We all know that you can take the biggest, baddest, tiger in the jungle and render him incapable of even feeding himself with a few years in captivity being given free meals. I think that the Berlin wall experiment shows that people are the same.

When I was 19, I was in college living on very little scholarship money, my girlfriend was pregnant and we didn't have any have medical insurance. I went down to see if there were any programs that would help. I told the very nice social aid worker that I met about our situation, and further told them that I planned to get a job, that we were getting married soon, and that my my soon-to-be wife owned a trailer. I was told that they had a couple programs that could help, but that we needed to not get married, not get a job, and put the trailer in someone else's name to qualify. I thanked them and left.

I got a job, got married, and we struggled through. 25 years later, we have 3 grown kids, I am in the position to put them through college and grad school, own a boat, camp, house, etc. and am my own boss. Somehow I don't think I would have ended up here had I taken the advice of the well meaning social aid worker.

[Hank49]

LMAO and you believe in global warming????????? What kind of science do you do? Government funded?

Careful now....you're staring to misfire. Don't accelerate too hard.

[Bill McIntyre]

I was trying to stay out of this one, but I want to comment on Chad's mention of Germany.

My daughter is married to a German and has lived there for 11 years. Early in their marriage, they moved to Dresden (in the former East) to set up a business, partly because labor and real estate were cheap, and I think there were some government tax incentives. What they encountered was pretty much what Chad heard on NPR. The people didn't have much of a work ethic, and it was hard to train them. They had been brought up in a society where "they pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work" was the norm.

Now they live near Dusseldorf, in the West, and its certainly a more prosperous area.

But before we go overboard using this as an example of how people work so much harder when not taken care of, keep in mind that Germany has a social safety net that makes Americans from the hard right scream "Socialism" at the top of their lungs, and it doesn't seem to keep them from being pretty productive. The situation behind the iron curtain was an extreme case. Not only were basic needs pretty much guaranteed, but people weren't really rewarded for hard work, so why bother?

German's have free basic medical care for instance, and free universities. That doesn't keep my German son-in-law from busting his ass to make a lot of money so he can afford a big house as well as a medical insurance policy that provides gold plated medical care. But if the worst happened, he knows that his wife and kids will still get basic care.

One more example- during the recent recession, German industry didn't lay off people like American industry did. They kept everyone on at reduced hours so that the pain was shared more equally. But now that demand has recovered, they are able to ramp back up to full speed much more quickly because the trained work force is already in place. They don't have to hire people who have been out of work for a year and try to retrain them.

So what I'm saying is that while West Germany was very different from East Germany, all of Germany still has differences from the US that would cause Tea Party types to throw up, and the society works pretty well.

[aussie]

In Australia if you wanted to sit on your arse and get given a free education and free healthcare or just do nothing but take hand-outs for the rest of your life you could and some people may bitch and complain but no one can stop you.

Our unemployment rate has hovered around 5% for years and no one I mean no one I know has ever labeled Aussies as a lazy bunch of people. They work damn hard and they do it because it gives them a sense of self worth, pride and a quality of life.

This rubbish people talk about, working to pay taxes for the lazy is such an insignificant % it's laughable it gets mentioned.

If you've never lived in another country, seen how they live, experienced their culture I don't care where you get your news from or what books you read. You just can't speak with authority.

The quality of life in these so called "socialized" countries exceed that of the US, so does their education and their healthcare. And I'm talking over the last 25 years not while one particular country is going through some form of recession (as in the US or Europe at the present).

I thought I knew everything, then I moved to Europe and realized that my way was by know means the only way or the best way. Then I moved to the US and the same thing happened again.

I'm not half as well read or intelligent as some of you but some of the things I read on this board baffle me.

[Marcus]

The tea party isn't just about people bitching about entitlement programs. It's much more than that. It's about the endless unconstitutional meaningless wars. It's about the corrupt gov't throwing gobs of money at bankers while we suffer. It's about the corrupt gov't sending all of our jobs overseas. It's about the encroaching police state...etc.
We wouldn't be having a discussion about entitlement programs IF we had jobs, if we weren't teetering on bankruptcy, if we weren't wasting gobs of money destroying wealth by bombing the shit out of all these countries.
That's what the Ron Paul camp thinks anyhow. Of course you'll have the MSM trying to frame an entire movement to be about people bitching about entitlements only. They'll do anything to discredit the movement because it is a threat to the status quo that has made them rich.
Divide and conquer is the name of their game...don't be a tool for the establishment.

[ocean_314]

In Australia if you wanted to sit on your arse and get given a free education and free healthcare or just do nothing but take hand-outs for the rest of your life you could and some people may bitch and complain but no one can stop you.

Our unemployment rate has hovered around 5% for years and no one I mean no one I know has ever labeled Aussies as a lazy bunch of people. They work damn hard and they do it because it gives them a sense of self worth, pride and a quality of life.

This rubbish people talk about, working to pay taxes for the lazy is such an insignificant % it's laughable it gets mentioned.

If you've never lived in another country, seen how they live, experienced their culture I don't care where you get your news from or what books you read. You just can't speak with authority.

The quality of life in these so called "socialized" countries exceed that of the US, so does their education and their healthcare. And I'm talking over the last 25 years not while one particular country is going through some form of recession (as in the US or Europe at the present).

I thought I knew everything, then I moved to Europe and realized that my way was by know means the only way or the best way. Then I moved to the US and the same thing happened again.

I'm not half as well read or intelligent as some of you but some of the things I read on this board baffle me.

Australia is a very different country then the US or even Europe. First and foremost they completely control immigration. No one is allowed in unless they bring a business or are highly skilled and valuable to society.

These people and the people of Australia have a very strong work ethic that is not polluted by people flooding into the country and going on welfare.

Australia also don’t have an affirmative action program that tells large groups of the population that you are a victim and your life is not your fault. This creates the welfare mentality. And the problem with the welfare mentality is that its very contagious and will infect large segments of the population.

A properly controlled island is necessary for the Australian way of life.

[surf_dude]

I feel as if my religious & political beliefs have changed considerably over time. The majority of my change resulted from civil discussions & debates with others who thought differently than I. So when I argue/debate I do not do so for the sake of arguing rather, when I engage in debate or conversation I am very intentional about seeing if their model of "how-things-fit-together" is more accurate and truer than mine (and if so, I need to do some serious reevaluating)...

sometimes we have too much at stake if we find ourselves to be wrong... thus debate turns into an emotionally charged argumentation where either party is repeating his/her views louder and louder not really giving much weight to 1) what the other person is saying, 2) how/why do the believe what they believe

[J707]

Care to back up that statement?

Name a society that has ever enjoyed a greater average standard of living for all its people than the post-war US and Europe. Name a society that has ever been more powerful economically and militarily than the United States.

Egyptian empire 3150 bce-30 bce 3130 years

Wait...do you measure "success" by longevity alone? Or do you also measure it by the advancement of civil rights, average standards of living, life expectancy, education/literacy, health, economic growth, and power?

Mayan civilization 2000bce-900ad 2900 years

Byzantine empire 1000 years

Roman empire 1100 years plus

Chinese empire 250 bce to present:eek: although some believe it ended in the late 1300's withe the end of imperial china

Youre naming societies which were often brutal monarchies where people didn't live past 30 and most of the population lived in slavery.

The "Chinese empire" is not modern-day China.

All had strict political/religious policies and were the most successful. Hopefully we can add the USA to this list.

Luckily we don't. Which is why America's flexible and open-ended type of secular government has been called a "great experiment," why it has been the most successful, wealthiest, most powerful and influential country the world has ever seen, and why other governments since its founding have taken notice and rejected autocracy, monarchy and theocracy in favor of religious freedom and democracy and/or republican government.

[aussie]

Australia is a very different country then the US or even Europe. First and foremost they completely control immigration. No one is allowed in unless they bring a business or are highly skilled and valuable to society.

These people and the people of Australia have a very strong work ethic that is not polluted by people flooding into the country and going on welfare.

A properly controlled island is necessary for the Australian way of life.

Some interesting points you raised although from where I live in Los Angeles it appears as though it's the migrants who are doing all the hard work and jobs that no else wants to do.

They're also getting paid below minimum wage which seems to be very handy for business owners. From my limited perspective it feels like you want your cake and to eat it too.

Let's not forget this country was founded on a century or two of slavery. That free labor helped make this great country what it is today. We can't exactly go blaming them now for the social problems inherent within their race?

And Australia's immigration program changes readily. For most of the last century they brought in unskilled labor to do all the "hard" work. See below as case in point.

The Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Power Act 1949[6]

The plan was to divert the waters of the Snowy Mountains Region to provide increased electricity generating capacity and to provide irrigation water for the dry west.

The Scheme took 25 years to build, from 1949 to 1974,[9] at the cost (at that time) of A$820 million; a dollar value equivalent in 1999 and 2004 to A$6 billion.[10][11] It employed people from over 30 countries in its construction, providing valuable employment for a large number of recently arrived immigrants, and was important in Australia's post-war economic and social development. Seventy percent of all the workers were migrants.[12]

[Fernando8884]

Not just longevity but most if not all the qualities you mentioned above at that period in time. Thanks for backing me up.

[J707]

Not just longevity but most if not all the qualities you mentioned above at that period in time. Thanks for backing me up.

I didn't. I'm still waiting for you to explain what great strides were made in civil rights, average standards of living, life expectancy, education/literacy, health, economic growth, and power between the bronze age and the middle ages by the empires you mentioned.

Youre talking about thousand year periods (or greater) where, due mainly to rigid political and religious ideologies, mankind really didnt go anywhere. These empires became the biggest baddest bully on their block for huge stretches of time but never became aware of an entire other hemisphere of the planet and still remained brutal serfdoms where people died in their 30s and drilled holes in each others skulls if they had epilepsy. The level of "success" of a society by modern standards turns mostly on the welfare of its people. Rigid autocracies, dictatorships, theocracies and monarchies have largely gone the way of the dodo over the past hundred years because the majority of the civilized world recognizes them as morally repugnant and suppressive of true growth, innovation, and social progress.

[Bill McIntyre]

Some interesting points you raised although from where I live in Los Angeles it appears as though it's the migrants who are doing all the hard work and jobs that no else wants to do.

They're also getting paid below minimum wage which seems to be very handy for business owners. From my limited perspective it feels like you want your cake and to eat it too.

Let's not forget this country was founded on a century or two of slavery. That free labor helped make this great country what it is today. We can't exactly go blaming them now for the social problems inherent within their race?

And Australia's immigration program changes readily. For most of the last century they brought in unskilled labor to do all the "hard" work. See below as case in point.

The Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Power Act 1949[6]

The plan was to divert the waters of the Snowy Mountains Region to provide increased electricity generating capacity and to provide irrigation water for the dry west.

The Scheme took 25 years to build, from 1949 to 1974,[9] at the cost (at that time) of A$820 million; a dollar value equivalent in 1999 and 2004 to A$6 billion.[10][11] It employed people from over 30 countries in its construction, providing valuable employment for a large number of recently arrived immigrants, and was important in Australia's post-war economic and social development. Seventy percent of all the workers were migrants.[12]

Dammit, don't be confusing ocean with facts. You might cause him to question some of his beliefs.

Well no, actually he won't. There are certain things he just knows, and no amount of facts will get in the way.

[Marcus]

Luckily we don't. Which is why America's flexible and open-ended type of secular government has been called a "great experiment," why it has been the most successful, wealthiest, most powerful and influential country the world has ever seen, and why other governments since its founding have taken notice and rejected autocracy, monarchy and theocracy in favor of religious freedom and democracy and/or republican government.


J707....uhm, take a look around. It appears that this great experiment is fixing to come to a grinding halt. IMO, because we got away from the founding rules/protocol. Due to the change that you seem to be saying is good, we have become an empty vessel of a nation. Our time is done. America won't recover from the rapid changes away from the founders intent anytime soon. We are toast.
Maybe you haven't seen the price of gold or the value of the dollar lately? Doooooode....

[Alexrom1207]

Egyptian empire 3150 bce-30 bce 3130 years

Mayan civilization 2000bce-900ad 2900 years

Byzantine empire 1000 years

Roman empire 1100 years plus

Chinese empire 250 bce to present:eek: although some believe it ended in the late 1300's withe the end of imperial china

All had strict political/religious policies and were the most successful. Hopefully we can add the USA to this list.

Alexander the Great's empire and the Roman Empire grew in strength and power primarily due to the fact that they allowed the local political circles to keep their identities/gods/local governments etc...

Rome also had a rather free pagan religious identity until around 313...and the decline started shortly after that (in the western empire anyway).

[Alexrom1207]

After listening/debating with your fellows on this board or other places has your outlook ever changed or altered and if so how?

All to often is seems as thought we believe what we do ne'er to of adopted a different outlook.

I'd love to hear if you have on any topic and if so what was it.

First of all, great thread.

Second of all, to answer the question. My views are constantly changing because every problem is unique, and therefore requires a unique solution.

I grew up a Republican, became a libertarian during college, and have now given up on political identities all together. I call myself a moderate because that's the closest "tag" I could identify with, but what that really means for me is that I'm willing to consider all solutions to all problems....whether they're socialist solutions or libertarian ones. If a political identity existed that encompassed my beliefs, it would probably be called something like "solution-based or problem-centric politics"

My current school of thought, I came to after discussing/debating politics for years. I finally realized something --most people don't really argue about the best solutions to problems. They argue about the problem...and spend most of their time trying to redefine the problem in such a way as to make their pre-chosen solution fit best. Next time you hear a political debate, or read a political post on this site...look for this. It'll shock you just how often you recognize people doing it.

But anyway, on my personal beliefs changing. On the esoteric side, every time someone make a good argument for something...my beliefs change. I may only agree with 2% of what they say...but I will incorporate that 2% into my beliefs. Many people here, even people that I always argue against, have changed/shaped my viewpoints. And on the empirical side, every time I experience something, the "reality" which I gauge an argument/solution against, changes. I used to have a certain opinion of illegals, but then I represented several at a free legal clinic I worked at. It changed the way I viewed illegals. But I've also seen illegals in the criminal context...and that's changed my viewpoints as well.

IMPO, the worst thing anyone can do is to adopt a mindset such as "government is the problem" or "government is the solution" or "we should just do what the founders thought was good back in 1792." The way I see it, if your beliefs aren't constantly changing, you're doing something wrong. That's not to say that you should constantly change your ideals (like John Kerry or John McCain, but I don't see beliefs and ideals as being the same things.

[aussie]

First of all, great thread.

Second of all, to answer the question. My views are constantly changing because every problem is unique, and therefore requires a unique solution.

...on my personal beliefs changing. On the esoteric side, every time someone make a good argument for something...my beliefs change. I may only agree with 2% of what they say...but I will incorporate that 2% into my beliefs. Many people here, even people that I always argue against, have changed/shaped my viewpoints. And on the empirical side, every time I experience something, the "reality" which I gauge an argument/solution against, changes.

...IMPO, the worst thing anyone can do is to adopt a mindset such as "government is the problem" or "government is the solution" or "we should just do what the founders thought was good back in 1792." The way I see it, if your beliefs aren't constantly changing, you're doing something wrong. That's not to say that you should constantly change your ideals

Well said sir. And thanks for your contribution. I think my views have somewhat changed since reading your retort.

[jadairiii]

Short answer is yes. My political views have gone from very conservative to more libertarian in a sense.

As I have aged and studied the Bible and associated works I have become more "religious" but in that growth I have also become much more open and forgiving of others views and lifestyles based entirely on my faith in Christ. At least that is the way I view his teachings. But I have grown to discount the majority of the Old Testament which IMO conflicts with the teachings of Christ.

That's why I find amusing when "Christians" quote the Old Testament as justification for whatever they are "selling". Do they really buy the part about angels coming to earth, having sex with women and producing an offspring of giants? But I am cool with that if you do......

I am also a firm believer in Occam's razor!

John

[ocean_314]

Alexander the Great's empire and the Roman Empire grew in strength and power primarily due to the fact that they allowed the local political circles to keep their identities/gods/local governments etc...

Rome also had a rather free pagan religious identity until around 313...and the decline started shortly after that (in the western empire anyway).

Dont forget roads, people wanted to be under Roman rule so they could get their tecnology.

[ocean_314]

Some interesting points you raised although from where I live in Los Angeles it appears as though it's the migrants who are doing all the hard work and jobs that no else wants to do.

They're also getting paid below minimum wage which seems to be very handy for business owners. From my limited perspective it feels like you want your cake and to eat it too.

Let's not forget this country was founded on a century or two of slavery. That free labor helped make this great country what it is today. We can't exactly go blaming them now for the social problems inherent within their race?

And Australia's immigration program changes readily. For most of the last century they brought in unskilled labor to do all the "hard" work. See below as case in point.

The Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Power Act 1949[6]

The plan was to divert the waters of the Snowy Mountains Region to provide increased electricity generating capacity and to provide irrigation water for the dry west.

The Scheme took 25 years to build, from 1949 to 1974,[9] at the cost (at that time) of A$820 million; a dollar value equivalent in 1999 and 2004 to A$6 billion.[10][11] It employed people from over 30 countries in its construction, providing valuable employment for a large number of recently arrived immigrants, and was important in Australia's post-war economic and social development. Seventy percent of all the workers were migrants.[12]

Australia brings in the skilled or unskilled labor as they need it and always have.

Australia has always strictly controlled immigration.

Slavery was part of this country but Affirmative Action has keep these people enslaved for the last 50 years. The master may have changed but they are still enslaved.

While the illegal immigrants do come to work, there are just as many if not more that come for the free ride of welfare and free medical care at the ER.

I was at the grocery store the other day and was held up at the checkout when a Mexican woman with three kids was using WIC coupons. These coupons take forever to use. When she was finally done i checked out. When i went to my truck in the parking lot she was getting into a brand new 50k SUV.

This is the problem; everyone rips off the system in the US. From welfare cheats to cops faking a disability a week before they retire at 50. Free medical care at the ER, why buy health insurance.

Everyone is ripping off the system and our country is paying a heavy price.

Half of the people in this country expect and demand free something from the goverment.

[ocean_314]

Dammit, don't be confusing ocean with facts. You might cause him to question some of his beliefs.

Well no, actually he won't. There are certain things he just knows, and no amount of facts will get in the way.

God Bill you sound so much like the typical left winger..all bullshit but no details.

When you criticize me please embrace details of where and how i am wrong.

[chuam]

God Bill you sound so much like the typical left winger..all bullshit but no details.

When you criticize me please embrace details of where and how i am wrong.

We do that all the time. You just ignore our responses to you and spout off something else that is complete crap.

[ocean_314]

We do that all the time. You just ignore our responses to you and spout off something else that is complete crap.

Chuam now you are sounding like Bill. Details please.

[chuam]

Chuam now you are sounding like Bill. Details please.

Go do a search of any of your posts and you will see people refuting your posts time and time again.

You can never back them up.

Here's an easy one:

You were wrong about photosynthesis.

You have zero credibility on this site as you have spouted off so many falsehoods and can't back up any of your crap. You seem to think it's just Bill but you will find pretty much everyone in this forum thinks you are wrong.

You have become part of the spearboard lexicon. There is a reason for that.

"Don't pull an ocean", Don't be an ocean." etc.

[J707]

J707....uhm, take a look around. It appears that this great experiment is fixing to come to a grinding halt. IMO, because we got away from the founding rules/protocol. Due to the change that you seem to be saying is good, we have become an empty vessel of a nation. Our time is done. America won't recover from the rapid changes away from the founders intent anytime soon. We are toast.
Maybe you haven't seen the price of gold or the value of the dollar lately? Doooooode....

Yes I know how valuable gold is and how the value of the dollar has depreciated. But since I don't consider Ron Paul a messiah or consider his every policy stance gospel, nor tout Austrian economic theory as infallible holy writ, I'm not sure what that is supposed to tell me. That America is altogether "toast?" We're doomed?

Regardless of what the predictable conservative reactionary backlash of today would have you believe, America has been in far tougher times than we are in now. We're facing a serious economic crisis, yes. But the country is not "doomed" and even if it was, there is really no reason to believe that reverting back to bare-bones Jeffersonian government would be our panacea.

I'm confused about what you mean when you speak of "the founders' intent," as if the founders were all of one mind, or as if their ideas were completely infallible, or as if their revolutionary ideas about republican government at the time are entirely sufficient on their own for governing a 21st century world superpower with 300 million citizens leveraged to its neck in a global economy. They aren't.

Second of all, to answer the question. My views are constantly changing because every problem is unique, and therefore requires a unique solution.

I grew up a Republican, became a libertarian during college, and have now given up on political identities all together. I call myself a moderate because that's the closest "tag" I could identify with, but what that really means for me is that I'm willing to consider all solutions to all problems....whether they're socialist solutions or libertarian ones. If a political identity existed that encompassed my beliefs, it would probably be called something like "solution-based or problem-centric politics"

My current school of thought, I came to after discussing/debating politics for years. I finally realized something --most people don't really argue about the best solutions to problems. They argue about the problem...and spend most of their time trying to redefine the problem in such a way as to make their pre-chosen solution fit best. Next time you hear a political debate, or read a political post on this site...look for this. It'll shock you just how often you recognize people doing it.

But anyway, on my personal beliefs changing. On the esoteric side, every time someone make a good argument for something...my beliefs change. I may only agree with 2% of what they say...but I will incorporate that 2% into my beliefs. Many people here, even people that I always argue against, have changed/shaped my viewpoints. And on the empirical side, every time I experience something, the "reality" which I gauge an argument/solution against, changes. I used to have a certain opinion of illegals, but then I represented several at a free legal clinic I worked at. It changed the way I viewed illegals. But I've also seen illegals in the criminal context...and that's changed my viewpoints as well.

IMPO, the worst thing anyone can do is to adopt a mindset such as "government is the problem" or "government is the solution" or "we should just do what the founders thought was good back in 1792." The way I see it, if your beliefs aren't constantly changing, you're doing something wrong. That's not to say that you should constantly change your ideals (like John Kerry or John McCain, but I don't see beliefs and ideals as being the same things.

:toast:

[Marcus]

Yes I know how valuable gold is and how the value of the dollar has depreciated. But since I don't consider Ron Paul a messiah or consider his every policy stance gospel, nor tout Austrian economic theory as infallible holy writ, I'm not sure what that is supposed to tell me. That America is altogether "toast?" We're doomed?

Regardless of what the predictable conservative reactionary backlash of today would have you believe, America has been in far tougher times than we are in now. We're facing a serious economic crisis, yes. But the country is not "doomed"

You seem to dismiss our dire predicament. I don't know if you just don't understand it or what, but you need only to research Argentina's collapse in order to see what we're in for. The dollar is a faith backed currency. Faith is lost, so goes the value. We're not giving our creditors any reason to have any faith in our ability to repay. All this empire building isn't helping matters either. Our wealth has been robbed by the central bankers and war mongers. They won't allow an audit of Ft. Knox so I suspect there isn't anything there. We're broke and we don't produce anything except death and destruction.

and even if it was, there is really no reason to believe that reverting back to bare-bones Jeffersonian government would be our panacea.

Didn't imply it would.

I'm confused about what you mean when you speak of "the founders' intent," as if the founders were all of one mind, or as if their ideas were completely infallible, or as if their revolutionary ideas about republican government at the time are entirely sufficient on their own for governing a 21st century world superpower with 300 million citizens leveraged to its neck in a global economy. They aren't.

It seems you think we've outgrown the constitution. IMO, the changes we've made has led to our demise. Central bankers, unconstitutional undeclared wars, over reaching fed gov't, entitlement programs, etc...
I don't see any reason why we still can't follow the constitution.

[aussie]

RERAIL:

A gentle reminder folks that the impetus of this thread was to see if and how your ideological beliefs have changed and what insights brought about the change. Save you're I'm right your wrong statements for other threads on the P/R forum.

:)

[5869]

After listening/debating with your fellows on this board or other places has your outlook ever changed or altered and if so how?


No. Hell no!

Most of the stuff on here is so damn shallow and the players are more interested in bashing one another over the head with bull shit they heard on talk shows. That is not a conducive way to have an open minded discussion. It breeds defensiveness and contempt.

Have your political/social/religious beliefs ever changed?

Yes. I have changed both religious and social beliefs which invariably change your political beliefs. In some cases I still have arrived at the same political position though I have abandoned some or most of the beliefs that originally supported the initial position.

These changes often come from true open mindedness, not the kind of open mindedness that many closed minded people preach. For me it takes a lot of research to support new ideas, because those who preach a particular position usually have an agenda to support. I need unbiased information, and that is very hard to come by so it requires my own research and introspection.

[North Star]

I would have to say that while some of the change in my beliefs was the result of talking to people, the vast majority of the changes I have gone through were the result of reading books - first and foremost, the Bible, and then, books on theology and history.

Books allow for a non emotional interaction with ideas that provides time for thoughtful reflection and evaluation, something that that is often impossible when debating verbally with other people.

Discussion has it's place and I enjoy it, but reading books has changed my beliefs to come more in harmony with reality more than any other factor I can think of.

[ocean_314]

It seems you think we've outgrown the constitution. IMO, the changes we've made has led to our demise. Central bankers, unconstitutional undeclared wars, over reaching fed gov't, entitlement programs, etc...
I don't see any reason why we still can't follow the constitution.

I agree, but the sad thing is that you and the country has not seen anything yet.

In November the 200,000 pages of new federal regulations come out written by the two hard core left wing big government socialists/communists Barmy Franks and Chirrs Dodd.

These regulations under the Financial Regulatory reform law that was passed when the Democrats had complete power will completely screw over every surviving private business in this country.

If you think business are fleeing to China and Mexico now just wait its going to be a stampede.

What is coming is the worst nightmare of every freedom loving American and would even shock George Orwell.

[aussie]

I agree, but the sad thing is that you and the country has not seen anything yet.

In November the 200,000 pages of new federal regulations come out written by the two hard core left wing big government socialists/communists Barmy Franks and Chirrs Dodd.

These regulations under the Financial Regulatory reform law that was passed when the Democrats had complete power will completely screw over every surviving private business in this country.

If you think business are fleeing to China and Mexico now just wait its going to be a stampede.

What is coming is the worst nightmare of every freedom loving American and would even shock George Orwell.

I have absolutely no financial background and very limited education when it comes to economic policy. But here's my understanding and please correct me if you feel I'm wrong.

Australia: Strong govt' regulation on banks: largest four Australian banks have AA ranking along with only approx 20 other banks in the world.

No banking/mortgage collapse no govt. bailout required. no recession.

America: Very little regulation on banks/wall street. banks take advantage have free reign.

banking collapse, stock market in free fall, housing market collapse. people homeless.

How is having a firmer grip on the private sector a bad thing.

NB: I've just derailed my own thread...

[Marcus]

I have absolutely no financial background and very limited education when it comes to economic policy. But here's my understanding and please correct me if you feel I'm wrong.

Australia: Strong govt' regulation on banks: largest four Australian banks have AA ranking along with only approx 20 other banks in the world.

No banking/mortgage collapse no govt. bailout required. no recession.

America: Very little regulation on banks/wall street. banks take advantage have free reign.

banking collapse, stock market in free fall, housing market collapse. people homeless.

How is having a firmer grip on the private sector a bad thing.

NB: I've just derailed my own thread...

:)

Austrailia has a commodity backed currency which keeps the corrupt from screwing with the system. You see, our fiat currency has opened the door for crooks which have infiltrated and spread like disease throughout our gov't. They are the ones responsible for the deregulation which was a catalyst for the housing boom/collapse. The vermin get in and breed.

[Bill McIntyre]

Commodity currency
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A commodity currency is a name given to currencies of countries which depend heavily on the export of certain raw materials for income. These countries are typically developing countries, eg. countries like Burundi, Tanzania, Papua New Guinea; but also include developed countries like Canada and Australia.

You see, our fiat currency has opened the door for crooks which have infiltrated and spread like disease throughout our gov't.

That is a constant theme for Marcus, but its a fringe view, and he has never made it clear why the fiat currency has opened the door for crooks.

[Captain1World]

They won't allow an audit of Ft. Knox so I suspect there isn't anything there.

LOL , Thats a new low.

If the gold in FK was sold off the gold market would have collapsed.... Instead it is doing great.

How idiotic

[Marcus]

That is a constant theme for Marcus, but its a fringe view, and he has never made it clear why the fiat currency has opened the door for crooks.

I've made it crystal clear. It's just that you've got your head so far up Keynes ass, you can't hear me. :D Fringe view my ass...it's common sense.
Allowing for the control of the money supply invites corruption. If you can control the economic conditions, you can control the presidency, spheres of influence, large businesses, etc...

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws"
~Mayer Amschel Rothchilds


LOL , Thats a new low.

If the gold in FK was sold off the gold market would have collapsed.... Instead it is doing great.

How idiotic

Captain1cellbrain, prove me wrong. Show me documentation that says how much gold is in FK. You can't. You really think that we would have all these debt problems if could just sell the gold off?
*note to self, stop talking to this idiot. He's nothing more than a troll.*

[ocean_314]

I have absolutely no financial background and very limited education when it comes to economic policy. But here's my understanding and please correct me if you feel I'm wrong.

Australia: Strong govt' regulation on banks: largest four Australian banks have AA ranking along with only approx 20 other banks in the world.

No banking/mortgage collapse no govt. bailout required. no recession.

America: Very little regulation on banks/wall street. banks take advantage have free reign.

banking collapse, stock market in free fall, housing market collapse. people homeless.

How is having a firmer grip on the private sector a bad thing.

NB: I've just derailed my own thread...


Australia doesn’t have the American Democratic party and the American corrupt media that is also part of the Democratic party.

Clinton, like Obama is doing now chose what federal laws to enforce or not to enforce simply by telling his attorney general what federal laws to enforce or not to enforce.

This led to all the bubbles that have redistributing all the wealth in this country to Wall Street. Clinton dot com bubble drained all the person funds and sent that money to wall street.

Clintons forcing the banks to lend to minorities regardless of if they qualified for a mortgage, using the affirmative action laws to force banks to give x amount loans to minorities based on the percentage of the population in that banks lending area.

For example if Detroit is 60% black then the banks had to lend 60% of all home loans to blacks..if not Clinton government would come down on the bank.

This of course led to the subprime crisis and the economy that we have now.

Only in America are the general public so enslaved to the TV. Only in America do people blindly believe whatever that TV tells them...Obama being president is the perfect example of the enslavement of America by the TV.

Its the goverment behind everything that has happened in the economic collaspe of this country.

America has not begun to feel the impact of what Obama is doing to this country. Just wait, today will be remmembered as the good times.

[Bill McIntyre]

Translation- ocean went out of business during the Clinton administration, blamed Clinton, and has never recovered. While many other businessmen have managed to survive over all the years since then, ocean is a stay-at-home Dad.

His wife won't let him risk her hard-earned money on another business venture.

[toptuna]

Translation- ocean went out of business during the Clinton administration, blamed Clinton, and has never recovered. While many other businessmen have managed to survive over all the years since then, ocean is a stay-at-home Dad.

His wife won't let him risk her hard-earned money on another business venture.

Does that make you feel better about yourself???

[Ethan kills]

I changed my worship practices by worshipping the porcelyn goddess this morning after too many drinks last night.

[ocean_314]

Translation- ocean went out of business during the Clinton administration, blamed Clinton, and has never recovered. While many other businessmen have managed to survive over all the years since then, ocean is a stay-at-home Dad.

His wife won't let him risk her hard-earned money on another business venture.

Bill a whole lot in not most of the small manufacturing businesses in this country where killed by Clinton when he refused to enforce the business laws.

Because of Clinton we now have a group of very large manufacturing companies that control everything manufactured in this country....yet because of the government and unions they make nothing in the United States.

There are always those little tiny mom and pops mirco companies but in the scheme of things they are nothing.