Middle Grounds due to be shut down?

[biggsy]

This could just be drivel from a old disgruntled commercial fisherman but I will pass it on to those you who might have interest in it. He used to do longlining in deeper waters (200' plus) for grouper. Beyond that I am not sure what his commercial fishing experience is. He is also "good buddies" with one of the people that is on the group that sets the gulf fishing regulations (Gulf Council?)

I know several charter boat captains make their living in the middle grounds and I have yet to dive it but want to try again this year. All four trips I booked to get out there last year ended up with no dives happening in the middle grounds. To hear it was disheartening to say the least and I hope he is just spewing gossip.

He told me one thing I did not know was true but later found out as true. The middle grounds is closed to commerical fishing of any kind. I did not know that was true, so if it isn't could someone set me straight.

I was also told that he thinks that within the year the middle grounds will become a sanctuary and we will not be able to do shooting or fishing of any kind there.

Do you think this will come to fruition? It's sad to think so, but they took away most of the Tortugas, why wouldn't they do it to the MG if they thought it was harmful to the fishery? The captain also said it's because it is a hatchery of some sort for several species before they move inshore.

Any comments or thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[RichT]

John,
The person you spoke to is wrong on several matters, but he could prove prophetic on others.
The Middlegrounds are a HAPC.
Habitat Area Of Particular Concern. As such, they are closed to longlining,fish traps and Bottom trawling. They are not closed to all commercial fishing. Bandit gear and commercial spearing are still allowed in the grounds.
Several groups have offered up the middlegrounds for clusure recently but nothing has come close to passing as of yet.
The EFH amendment that has been brought up repeatedly and all of you were asked to write in against it pasage, could possibly be a start to closing of the Middlegrounds if the Amendment passes.
Its theorized that if the EFH amendment passes the language is so vague that depending on WHO is interpreting it could close many large areas including the Grounds.
The grounds are certainly a unique and diverse habitat.
Fortunately, they are so far from shore that the impact of divers and fisherman is relatively small.IMO

[biggsy]

I got the notice from Denny but was late to respond with an e-mail. I wish I had a few more days notice as I was not available when he sent that out.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Summerland Key]

Have you all seen the letter by Bob Jones (executive director of Southeast Fisheries) requesting that the Middle Grounds and Elbow area be closed to commerical spearfishing? This is not a good letter at all and cites many posts on spearboard for justification of a closure. I just got it in this morning and can post it. Not good news. Don

[Summerland Key]

Before some of you get too worked up by this request by Bob it is not something I support at all. I don't know what is driving Bob on this other than some of the photos and talk on spearboard that he must have found offensive. Bertram has already sent a response to Bob and I will later today. Bob is usually a reasonable person and hopefully we will be able to talk this out with him. Attacking him personally will not get anywhere. Let me see if I can post the letter. Don

[Spear One]

Commercial spearfishing, rod & reel, & bandit fishing are currently allowed in the Fla. Middle Grounds. However, It is highly likely that it is going to take a big effort on our part to keep it that way. Recreational fisherman should be just as concerned IMO.

[Screen Name]

I believe that the provacation for this is that some spearfishermen have spoken out against longlining. You can pretty much assure that these guys will go on offense.

We will either have to collectively do what it takes to defend spearfishing from distortion of the facts, or we will take it in the nose unfairly again.

[Summerland Key]

Here is the letter from Bob Jones to the Gulf Council. I hesitated to post this, but after thinking about it for a while decided to. Although I respect Bob I do not agree with what he is trying to do here ------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bob Jones
To: wayne.swingle@gulfcouncil.org
Cc: kljbell@cs.com ; jimfensom@aol.com ; morris@ncf.edu ; chanyw@gulftel.com ; hkaywilliams@hotmail.com ; maunusjr@aol.com ; ddrum@cajunnet.com ; walter@lashrimp.com ; degraaf_adams@ars.aon.com ; jhendrix1706@aol.com ; bertram25@worldnet.att.net ; roy.williams@fwc.state.fl.us ; roy.crabtree@noaa.gov ; coleman@bio.fsu.rdu ; ault@shark.rsmas.miami.edu ; rrufe@oceanconservancy.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 2:25 PM
Subject: Commercial Spearfishing

Dear Sir;

It is becoming increasingly more evident that commercial spearfisherman are targeting large breeder stock in the Florida Middle Grounds and Elbow area of the Gulf. I request your staff and the Council take immediate action to preserve the essential breeding stock.

Unlike traditional hook & line and longline fisherman, commercial spearfisherman are intentionally targeting breeder stock, often times for bragging rights as these fish have limited commercial/food value. A search of the internet reveals the stories of the commercial spearfisherman in their own words –

http://www.spearboard.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11314

http://www.spearboard.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13047

http://www.spearboard.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12839

http://www.spearboard.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12427

These commercial spearfisherman operate largely unregulated ( by law with a reef permit, they may slaughter unlimited numbers of breeders) and will continue the slaughter of the essential breeding stock unless the Gulf Council acts. The situation is similar to that of the Goliath grouper slaughters at the hands of unregulated spearfisherman in the 70’s and 80’s where thousands of fish were killed or left to die. One wonders how many of the breeders escape the commercial spearfisherman only to die later of their wounds or are simply discarded after the photo session!

In my opinion, the Gulf council needs to act and a rule-making process needs to begin. The only way to ensure the breeding stock is protected is to prohibit commercial spearfishing in the Middle Grounds and Elbow area. It is likely the commercial spearfisherman have already decimated the large breeder stock population and action should be taken immediately!

Please feel free to contact me if I can be of further assistance. Attached are photos of commercial spearfisherman and the targeted large breeders!

Sincerely,

Bob Jones
bob.jones05@earthlink.net

[Spear One]

Complete nonsense IMO. We have been spearing in the Middle Grounds since the late 1970's. Over 25 years of spearfshing......both commercial & recreatonal, and the Grounds is still one of the most productive areas of the Gulf. Hopefully the council will see his letter for what it is......biased & ignorant speculation!

[Denny]

Originally posted by Summerland Key
Here is the letter from Bob Jones to the Gulf Council. I hesitated to post this, but after thinking about it for a while decided to. Although I respect Bob I do not agree with what he is trying to do here

....Unlike traditional hook & line and longline fisherman, commercial spearfisherman are intentionally targeting breeder stock, often times for bragging rights as these fish have limited commercial/food value. Sincerely,

Bob Jones
bob.jones05@earthlink.net

Gee, I think that the Council already is aware that LONGLINERS ARE targeting brood stock gag, and have been doing so for a couple of years. Seems as though the longliners have figured out how to adjust their leader/bait setups to target the large gags. It is right in the landing figures. Limited commercial/food value? HUH? I bet the LL boats get less money for the big ones, eh?

Hmmmm.... Let's do some math here.
10 miles of commercial longline gear holding 2000 or more hooks, soaking for four hours, two to three times a day, compared to a commercial spearfisherman's catch? How long would it take to swim 20 to thirty miles underwater?

Seems as though somebody might have gotten a little PO'd about the expression of anti-longline sentiment at the Tampa EFH public input meeting.

[HeadHunter]

As owner/captain of the commercial spearfishing vessel HEADHUNTER, I feel compelled to answer Bob Jones letter to the Gulf Council concerning Commercial Spearfishermen targeting large Breeder stock in the Gulf.

My crew and I do take large Black Grouper in the Middle Grounds and the Elbow. For the year 2004, we took 5 total Blacks over 80 pounds each. For comparison, recently a large longline boat returning from a trip from NW of the Tortugas was seen unloading between 20 and 25 Large Black Grouper weighing over 80 pounds each. This was observed by several reputable people and is nothing unusual. This catch was made by one longline boat on one trip. This one trip catch by one boat is roughly the amount of large Blacks that we spear in 5-6 years. And yet Bob Jones wants to point a finger at us and say we're the problem? If it wasn't so sad, it'd be comical.

I have never personally pointed a finger at another type of grouper fishery and am baffeled as to why Bob Jones is attacking us. Commercial spearfishing accounts for something like two tenths of one percent of the grouper taken commercially in the Gulf. Compare that to the 60-70% or more that the longliners take. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out whos really taking the large breeder grouper out of the Gulf.

Another good couple of points to make is that spearfishing has no bycatch, doesn't kill thousands of undersize grouper while catching legal fish and doesn't require tons of bait. It also doesn't destroy the bottom that it fishes on and doesn't leave large quanties of dead wasted fish on the bottom when a section of gear is broken off.

I'm proud of what I and my crew do for a living and am proud of the way we do it. We care about the Gulf. Do you really think that people that lay miles of heavy gear in hard and soft Coral areas really care about the Gulf at all?

Again, I don't know why Bob Jones started this with the Gulf Council. Maybe he sees the writing on the wall. The time of unattended gear that destroys more than it takes is almost over. Maybe this is just another asthmatic gasp by a slowly choking industry. Maybe its just a smoke screen put up by Mr. Jones and his organization to take some of the heat off longlining. Maybe its his idea of retaliation, since a lot of divers made anti-longline statements at the recent EFH meeting in Tampa. Kinda funny if it is retaliation, since no Commercial Spearfisherman made any anti-longline comments at the meeting.

Finally, if Mr. Jones wants to start sending some pictures to the Gulf Council, we'd be happy to send some of our own. Maybe a few pictures of long line boats unloading thousands of pounds of True Blacks from one trip would make an impact. Or maybe a half dozen pictures from Rattles Ridge or similar area showing the massive amounts of damage from long line gear would have an impact.

I never wanted this. Why Mr. Jones sent the letter to the council is a mystery, especially when he's got to know that what he said to the council is untrue. I call for Mr. Jones to review his information, and retract his letter to the Council. I ask the FRA to request from the Council that LongLine vessels are immediately required to report the amount of large breeding stock grouper that they catch each trip.

It's no secret that I don't like LongLine gear. Nobody but longline fisherman like longline gear. But, I have never attacked the LongLine fishery in a Public Forum. Maybe it's time to send a few pictures to the Council and ask for an immediate ban on all LongLining?

Another thing. The longliners can't fish on the Middle Grounds. So, every time theres an issue with commercial Grouper fishing in the Gulf. They always want The MG closed. Gee, you can't fish there so you want it closed? Does it make any sense to even consider closing an area where the people catching most of the fish can't fish anyway?

Mr. Jones, I think you made a mistake with this baseless attack on spearfishing. The Coucil will see thru this smokescreen. The FRA will respond to you. And I will do whatever it takes to defend what I do versus what you do.

Sincerly, Dan MacMahon, Captain F/V HeadHunter

[Spear One]

Well said Dan. If Mr. Jones comments were based in retribution, as I'm sure they were, the council will see through it.

[Dive4Blood]

Since it is apparent that we have quite large group of voyeurs "monitoring" Spearboard in anonymity, I am assuming this will reach the audience that I intend it to.

The letter that Mr. Jones sent to the Gulf Council has all the trappings of a drowning man that in his moment of panic is willing to endanger all those around him to stay afloat. For the life of me I cannot begin to wonder how several years into the 21th century we still have longline fishing in the Gulf of Mexico yet we face a fisheries crisis because of ONE commercial spearfishing operation in the Florida Middle Grounds!

The crew of the vessel HeadHunter in my mind represents the paragon of scuba spearfishing, recreational or commercial, in the Gulf. To view those pictures on the website links provided in Mr Jones' letter is the equivalent of seeing Michael Jordan in your first basketball game, and assuming afterwards that he represents the average NBA player. I have had the privilege of diving on that vessel numerous times, and can personally attest that the allegations that Mr Jones portrays are patently false. They do not shoot fish for "bragging rights". You cannot pay your mortgage with "bragging rights", their main purpose is to earn a viable living using the most discriminate method of harvesting fish. I can attest that all their catch is sold whether large or small. Mr Jones' claim that a large fish has little to no commercial/food value is laughable when taken in the context of who he represents. Regarding catch, I was present when the crew of the HeadHunter was fortunate to harvest their record catch, an amount which would have been considered a poor to fair total on a longline boat of which dozens could be strip mining the Gulf at any point in time.

Pictures? You want pictures? I have access to photographs taken on a longline boat that shows baskets of undersize red groupers ("maggots" as the slang term goes) that have been cut up awaiting to be be baited on the next set. Compare this shameful waste to the crew of the HeadHunter who I have seen re-dive a ledge several times to retrieve ONE "holed-up" fish so that it not go to waste despite the time it took out of day.

The only reason that longlining exists today is through the well funded, highly engaged lobbying efforts of Mr Jones, and his ilk. Longlining is a dinosaur, and like a dinosaur it will soon belong in a museum where people in the future can just shake their head in amazement, and wonder what in the hell were we thinking to have allowed this.

AJ Suarez

[Bill McIntyre]

[i]

Finally, if Mr. Jones wants to start sending some pictures to the Gulf Council, we'd be happy to send some of our own. Maybe a few pictures of long line boats unloading thousands of pounds of True Blacks from one trip would make an impact.

Sincerly, Dan MacMahon, Captain F/V HeadHunter [/B]

But commercial spearfishermen already provided photos for Mr. Jones to use in his letter by posting those threads that he referenced. Somehow I doubt that the longliners post photos of their catches on the internet for everyone to look at. If you want photos of longliner catches, you'll have to go take them yourselves.

I got shouted down before for even suggesting that image and public perception might matter more than facts regarding the impact of tournaments so I'll probably get shouted down for suggesting that the same thing may be true for commercial spearfishing. I have no doubt at all that longliners take many times the fish of commercial spearfishermen, but the tone of many posts in those threads was that no fish was safe when these deadly killers were on the prow. I tried to go back to get some specific quotes for examples, but I see that access to them is now denied. I guess that makes sense, although now if anyone asks Jone's why they can't get to the threads, he'll be able to reply that they so completely proved his point that they had to be hidden from view.

Maybe blatant bragging about how efficient you are and showing photos of stringers to prove it is not in your best interests.

[chasintail]

That a commerical spearfisherman will redive a spot to retrieve a holed up fish says alot about those guys.:cool: If I did not harvest my own fish and bought them in a store,I would rather buy fish from the HH boat that has no bycatch than from a f*#@in longliner whos hooks kill indiscriminatly.Just my .02 cents.

Nick

[Dive4Blood]

So I would assume that the best thing to do is play the ostrich, hide you head in in the sand, and hope that nobody ever notices that the end result of a successful spearfishing dive is DEAD fish? Maybe we should refrain from celebrating our notable catches with our peers whether it be one trophy fish, or a stringer of several fish that abides by the legal recreational bag limit? If so, why should this website even exist? Surely we were better off pre-Spearboard before this virtual subculture of people who share the passion of spearfishing existed, and when we weren't engaged as a fishing user group, ripe for the picking from anyone else who wanted to use us as a scapegoat for the fisheries related ills that we had no part in creating? Riiight.....

Bill, aren't you rather hypocritical displaying a trophy white sea bass in your avatar? Aren't people going to assume that spearfishing is disproportionately taking the breeding stock of that species?

Your ever present devil's advocate role is becoming quite tiresome. I don't know if you get a thrill from being a contararian, or are just a bored old man with nothing better to do, but your act is wearing thin.

AJ Suarez

[chasintail]

Originally posted by Bill McIntyre
Hell yes, me too.

I guess your reply means I didn't get across my point, but restating it probably won't help.

I got your point Bill but I choose not to comment.The statement you quoted was not directed at your post.It was just my thoughts.

[Bill McIntyre]

Originally posted by Dive4Blood

Bill, aren't you rather hypocritical displaying a trophy white sea bass in your avatar? Aren't people going to assume that spearfishing is disproportionately taking the breeding stock of that species?

Your ever present devil's advocate role is becoming quite tiresome. I don't know if you get a thrill from being a contararian, or are just a bored old man with nothing better to do, but your act is wearing thin.

AJ Suarez

The photo in my avatar shows one fish- not a stringer. And the day I got the fish, the post to the freedivelist expressed how lucky I felt rather than saying no fish was safe with me in the area. Fair or not, I doubt that anyone trying to get spearfishing banned would have thought that my post and photo provided nearly as much ammunition as the posts and photos in those threads.

Its just hard for me to believe that I can't seem to get across the fact that I'm on your side rather than the enemy's side. I guess I shouldn't really give a shit about the MG because I'll never dive there, but I really would like it if you guys could continue to dive there. And I will admit to some selfish concern. I may be an old man, but once the banning gains momentum at other locations, it might get to my location before I'm ready to quit. I did get that fish in the avatar last summer, so I'm hoping that I'm not quite over the hill yet, and I'd like to be free to get more as long as I can.

I don't think everyone will agree with me as to how those threads look to outsiders. But if you can't read a suggestion from someone who is basically on your side without accusing him of stirring shit and calling him one more name, then God bless you and God help you.

PS: if someone didn't agree with me that those threads were potentially damaging, then why were they blocked?

[biggsy]

Originally posted by Dive4Blood

Pictures? You want pictures? I have access to photographs taken on a longline boat that shows baskets of undersize red groupers ("maggots" as the slang term goes) that have been cut up awaiting to be be baited on the next set.

AJ Suarez

Originally posted by HeadHunter
Finally, if Mr. Jones wants to start sending some pictures to the Gulf Council, we'd be happy to send some of our own. Maybe a few pictures of long line boats unloading thousands of pounds of True Blacks from one trip would make an impact. Or maybe a half dozen pictures from Rattles Ridge or similar area showing the massive amounts of damage from long line gear would have an impact.

Maybe it's time to send a few pictures to the Council and ask for an immediate ban on all LongLining?

Sincerly, Dan MacMahon, Captain F/V HeadHunter

Well said Dan and AJ...

I think it's time to start sending some pictures that you have proving the theory.

They are choking and grasping at whatever they can to bring down this sport. It's not going to work! Goliath...meet David. David this is Goliath, don't be scared, it's time to rumble!

[biggsy]

Originally posted by Bill McIntyre
And I will admit to some selfish concern. I may be an old man, but once the banning gains momentum at other locations, it might get to my location before I'm ready to quit.

Bill, we have no time limit in our fight. We are working for preservation of this sport that is under constant attack on the East Coast as well as other areas for years to come. Not just as a selfish preservation until we are ready to quit. We want our children and their children, should they choose to, enjoy EQUAL fishing rights for all attended effort gear for many years.

These posts and letters and links should prove to you that we are under attack and that is the point. They are taking posts out of context and using it against us.

Join the fight, dont fight it. If you truly are supporting it, dont play the antagonist. Bring your toys over to our sand box and play. We are stronger in the number of voices we have and often times you are coming across as sitting on the fence. Time to pick a side.

[Charlestondivin]

I would like to see the longlining pictures myself. I have never seen what they do and how they do it. They kicked the longliners off our coast and it did wonders for our fishery.

[Screen Name]

Dan:

That could not have been better said. It is too bad that Mr. Jones mistook you for those who spoke out against longlines, because I know firsthand that you never commented on them publicly or sought to damage them. I also know firsthand that although you harvest fish commercially, you do it with a much greater interest of the resource than the public could imagine. It was a mistake for Mr. Jones to fabricate his alarmist letter, and I believe it would be wise for him to retract it.

I do realize that "perception is reality" and we are the stewards of our image. However, I do not see anything in those threads that anyone should be ashamed of, or hidden. If you cannot take a photo of it, you probably should not be doing it. Is that why Bob’s people do not publicize what they do? Being proud of what you do and showing off your catch is a part of fishing that is way older than any of us, and part of the satisfaction of the activity. I feel that it is a part that we should keep.

This all just brings to light that, even perhaps the best commercial spearfishermen in the entire world, is relatively inefficient and harvests with the least consequences of all methods. It is good for our sport. I am confident that the Gulf Council will keep focus on the real issues rather than be sucked into this diversion.

[Bill McIntyre]

Originally posted by biggsy
We are stronger in the number of voices we have and often times you are coming across as sitting on the fence. Time to pick a side.

If I were not on your side, I wouldn't be posting here. I'd be emailing Jones and telling him that I agreed with him.

"They are taking posts out of context and using it against us. "

Gosh, I thought I said that too.

[biggsy]

Originally posted by Bill McIntyre
If I were not on your side, I wouldn't be posting here.



Mr. McIntyre, you just have a funny (and I dont mean haha funny) way of showing it is all I am pointing out.

[chasintail]

Would someone explain what bandit fishing is:confused:

[Spear One]

This entire situation is a perfect example of why I have always believed...... that one fishing group pointing fingers at another fishing group, recreational or commercial, accomplishes very little in the long run. You simply cannot expect there not be some type of retribution from either side.

Dissention among any group......weakens the group. This "in fighting" will be our demise if we are not careful. I find this whole situation quite disturbing and sincerely believe it did not have to come to this.

[Boca Boy]

Bandit fishing is using 15 hook rigs and electric reels or large drum manual crank reels with fiberglass boom, talk to fishunta, he does that kind of stuff on the deeper wrecks.

[chasintail]

Originally posted by Boca Boy
Bandit fishing is using 15 hook rigs and electric reels or large drum manual crank reels with fiberglass boom, talk to fishunta, he does that kind of stuff on the deeper wrecks.

Thanks,I've seen it done but didn't know it was called that.

[Denny]

"Bandit" gear is the term used for vertical hook and line gear.
15 hooks is a high number. Most grouper fishermen use one or two hooks.
The key to vertical gear is that it is individual, attended-effort gear which is deployed and retrieved quickly, giving the caught fish a chance to be released alive if is not within the target range.

[junior]

Originally posted by Bill McIntyre
But commercial spearfishermen already provided photos for Mr. Jones to use in his letter by posting those threads that he referenced.

I got shouted down before for even suggesting that image and public perception might matter more than facts regarding the impact of tournaments so I'll probably get shouted down for suggesting that the same thing may be true for commercial spearfishing.

Maybe blatant bragging about how efficient you are and showing photos of stringers to prove it is not in your best interests.

Bill, you've got to be kidding me with the holier than thou approach to photos of fish. All I can figure is that the Alzheimers must be setting in:D Recall this thread??

Off topic random photos with any gun from any boat (http://www.spearboard.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13980&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)

[Bill McIntyre]

Originally posted by junior
Bill, you've got to be kidding me with the holier than thou approach to photos of fish. All I can figure is that the Alzheimers must be setting in:D Recall this thread??

Off topic random photos with any gun from any boat (http://www.spearboard.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13980&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)

Yes, I recall it. It shows fish from all over the world from many different boats taken over a long period of time, and none of them accompanied by posts saying that no fish is safe with any of those divers shown being in the water. Words really do matter.

And what may be more pertinent, considering the title of this thread, is that Bob Jones did not cite my thread as evidence for his case.

My point that seems to have cast me once more as an enemy of the sport is that those threads were potentially damaging, and Bob Jones seems to agree or he would not have bothered to cite them. Those threads are no longer accessible, at least by me. If they are not damaging, why were they blocked?
**********************

Minds are like parachutes. They only function when they are open. -Sir James Dewar, Scientist (1877-1925)

[fizisition]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by biggsy
[B]Well said Dan and AJ...

I think it's time to start sending some pictures that you have proving the theory.


John, that is no theory, it is fact. I have witnessed this personally many, many times.

[chasintail]

Dear Mr Jones,
You and all of the other ocean raping longliners have no idea. If you don't like what you see or read on spearboard feel free to never visit this forum again. I have been to my favorite spearfishing spots that are normally loaded with fish to get my 4 ARS and 1 Aj. Although on this day there were no fish. And wouldn't you know it, a longline vessel was in area. I dove all day and the rigs were barren. 1 boat wiped out entire eco-systems with one visit.
It would take a commercial spearing vessel a lifetime of diving to do the damage a longliner did in one day! I don't think even if they tryed that could inflict that much damage. The Gulf Council has better things to than worry about hard working divers making an honest living in a non fish stock threatening manner. Better things like keeping you devastating fisherman from doing anymore damage.
It is very petty of you to use friends making jokes on Spearboard and turning it into something its not. Feel free to share this post with any one you see fit.

All the best,
Nicholas Duvernay

[jfjf]

Originally posted by RichTaylor
John,
The person you spoke to is wrong on several matters, but he could prove prophetic on others.
The Middlegrounds are a HAPC.
Habitat Area Of Particular Concern. As such, they are closed to longlining,fish traps and Bottom trawling. They are not closed to all commercial fishing. Bandit gear and commercial spearing are still allowed in the grounds.
Several groups have offered up the middlegrounds for clusure recently but nothing has come close to passing as of yet.
The EFH amendment that has been brought up repeatedly and all of you were asked to write in against it pasage, could possibly be a start to closing of the Middlegrounds if the Amendment passes.
Its theorized that if the EFH amendment passes the language is so vague that depending on WHO is interpreting it could close many large areas including the Grounds.
The grounds are certainly a unique and diverse habitat.
Fortunately, they are so far from shore that the impact of divers and fisherman is relatively small.IMO



The comment that fisherman and divers have minimal impact to the grounds fishery is plain silly. The last time I made this comment (well at least one that was similar) it was pulled from the board. So who pulled my post and why??

[junior]

Originally posted by Bill McIntyre
Yes, I recall it. It shows fish from all over the world from many different boats taken over a long period of time, and none of them accompanied by posts saying that no fish is safe with any of those divers shown being in the water. Words really do matter.

Minds are like parachutes. They only function when they are open. -Sir James Dewar, Scientist (1877-1925)

All I was pointing out was that if you would like to try and convince people that posting photos of legal catches is potentially damaging to the sport, then you should refrain from posting any pictures yourself. As you said, it's not the reality so much as it is the perception. By your logic, it's only a matter of time before someone decides to use your single fish pictures as evidence that you are decimating breeding stock fish through the use of your superior abilities and tools. Your photos would not be used in a time and location specific manner to give you the benefit of the doubt. I believe you do have the best interest of the sport in mind, but I felt inclined to explore the inconsist application of your insight into the workings of anyone who would do harm to our sport through the use of any photos.

Also, closed minds function perfectly well. In fact, it explains the vast majority of happenings in the world:D:D

[Summerland Key]

I would have to agree with Bill that there is nothing to be gained by posting photos of dead fish along with some of the rethoric I have seen. It shouldn't be that way as the fish are all taken in a legal and sustainable manner. Unfortunately, there are those out there that would like to see spearfishing banned completely and will use whatever evidence available to accomplish their goal.
I don't think it is a matter of feeling ashamed of what you speared and not posting photos, it is just being realistic. Some folks want us gone from the picture, so why give them the ammunition they need to do so.
I honestly wish it was not that way as I have albums full of fish pictures from the good old days that I seldom show anyone anymore. Don

[Screen Name]

Originally posted by jfjfjfj
The comment that fisherman and divers have minimal impact to the grounds fishery is plain silly. The last time I made this comment (well at least one that was similar) it was pulled from the board. So who pulled my post and why??

Excuse me whoever you are, but you need to stop hiding behind the internet if you want any credibility. I don't know what you are getting at here, but the grounds is the fishiest place that I have been to in the world, year in and year out. Seems like it's pretty healthy to me, based on experience.

[chasintail]

Originally posted by jfjfjfj
The comment that fisherman and divers have minimal impact to the grounds fishery is plain silly. The last time I made this comment (well at least one that was similar) it was pulled from the board. So who pulled my post and why??

Thank you screenname for bringing this up.

I can only imagine why your post was poofed.:rolleyes: You are posting on a spearfishing forum.As most of the other members know spearfishing is on of the most selective forms of fishing there is.No bycatch.My average take on a spearfishing trip is about 6 fish.4 ARS,1 AJ,and hopefully a cobia or grouper.Might I stress minimal impact.
You are the only thing thats just plain silly.

Nick

[RichT]

Originally posted by jfjfjfj
The comment that fisherman and divers have minimal impact to the grounds fishery is plain silly. The last time I made this comment (well at least one that was similar) it was pulled from the board. So who pulled my post and why??


EDIT

Are you aware that the Middleground literaly gets surrounded by longliners?
Did you know that longlining takes almost 75 percent of all the Red grouper? Did you know that longlining takes approximately 50 percent of the Gag grouper and MOST of the brood stock?
What do you think is being caught as bycatch???
I will stand by my statement that fisherman and divers impact is minimal until presented with proof to the contrary.

[jfjf]

I would think that credibility would be attained primarily from what a person says and does, not by who they are.

My opinion is that all the grouper/snapper fisheries have been heavily impacted by fisherman in Florida. This does not contradict the fact that the grounds have a lot of fish, it does not indicate that the area needs additional protecton, it does not indicate that I have a problem with spearfishing or commercial fishing. Basically, I think it is naive to think that the middle grounds have not been impacted by fisherman. If a group wants to argue a point with the regulators, this may not be the most advantageous position to take. Maybe an arguement along the lines of: this particular fishery remains relatively healthy, especially compared to other inshore areas, would be more realistic and effective.

Do lotsa posts get "poofed" if an opinion is not popular? I state that a small portion of a particular post made by an individual is silly and now Nick thinks I'm "just plain silly". You know, I've been called much worse by my mother.....

[Dive4Blood]

For someone so concerned as to the major impact that spearfishing has on the Florida Middle Grounds, you sure are pretty eager to help perpetuate this fallacy :rolleyes: :rolleyes: .

http://www.spearboard.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14805
(second post down)

AJ Suarez

[jfjf]

Rich Taylor:

What do you think longliners are? Do you not consider them fisherman? Maybe your comment that "fisherman" have minimal impact to the grounds was intended to mean that maybe "spearfisherman" have minimal impact? I'm really not sure? Certainly that would be a more defensible arguement.

My personal opinion is that benthic (bottom) longlining is a particularly destructive fishery, although I really have no experience nor have I researched the fishery data suffciently to express anything more specific.

[RichT]

Originally posted by jfjfjfj
Rich Taylor:

What do you think longliners are? Do you not consider them fisherman? Maybe your comment that "fisherman" have minimal impact to the grounds was intended to mean that maybe "spearfisherman" have minimal impact? I'm really not sure? Certainly that would be a more defensible arguement.

My personal opinion is that benthic (bottom) longlining is a particularly destructive fishery, although I really have no experience nor have I researched the fishery data suffciently to express anything more specific.



JfJf,
Why dont you start at the beginning of this thread and read the part about the Middleground being a HAPC area.
As such, they are off limits to Bottom trawling, longlining and fish traps.




EDIT

[Bill McIntyre]

Originally posted by RichTaylor

You could be Anna Nicole Smith for all we know!

I was hoping for Scarlett Johanssen myself. I've seen two films with her in two weeks, and she almost makes me feel young again. She sure as hell makes me wish I were young again.

But seriously, while I certainly enjoy someone taking the heat off me for a while, I don't understand a reluctance to state a real name. Of course the majority of posters still don't state real names, but the majority are not expressing unpopular positions. If I have an opinion, then I ought to be willing to say who I am.

Its not as if you are being asked to state your life history, your education level, or whether you were a Marine in your distant past. If its a name we never heard of, then it won't matter. But if its a name that turns up when we Google the Board of Directors of PETA, the Brotherhood of Grouper Protectors, or something similar, then readers should know that too.

[chasintail]

Originally posted by RichTaylor

I also disagree with your contention that your name or who you are has nothing to do with this debate.
It certainly does!IMO
You could be Anna Nicole Smith for all we know!

I agree,if you feel so strongly about something then have the stones to say you name and where your from.Who you are has everything to do with what you think.If your Anna Nicole,nice boobs,if not,think of something your mother called you other than silly.

Nick Duvernay
Ocean Springs,MS
Spearfisherman

[Summerland Key]

Rich:
I have no doubt that the middle grounds are surrounded by longlines just as much of the Tortugas Reserve (especially Riley's Hump) is surrounded by fish traps. They catch the fish coming and going from these areas. Unfortunately, many of the fish traps in Tortugas never come back to the dock and fish 24/7 365 days a year. A number of years ago they figured out how to catch yellowtail (snapper) in fish traps using shrimp bycatch. They use about a basket (80-100 pounds) per trap and it does attract not only yellowtail, but everything else, including hogfish. There is some footage of these traps packed with shrimp bycatch in the video I sent to fishkilla.

[RichT]

Rich:
I have no doubt that the middle grounds are surrounded by longlines just as much of the Tortugas Reserve (especially Riley's Hump) is surrounded by fish traps. They catch the fish coming and going from these areas. Unfortunately, many of the fish traps in Tortugas never come back to the dock and fish 24/7 365 days a year. A number of years ago they figured out how to catch yellowtail (snapper) in fish traps using shrimp bycatch. They use about a basket (80-100 pounds) per trap and it does attract not only yellowtail, but everything else, including hogfish. There is some footage of these traps packed with shrimp bycatch in the video I sent to fishkilla.


I agree that fish traps are even worse than longlines.
I do not believe that a sustainable harvest can be maintained while we still have these gears being used in the fishery.
Fortunately, thanks to the efforts of many, Fishtraps will hopefully be gone forever and hopefully, lonlining and trawl gear wont be far behind.

[HeadHunter]

Thanks to all for the support. With almost 3000 members and countless 1000's more who view this site, we are a force to be reckoned with.

Id like to address a few more points concerning Bob Jones letter.

If Bob is so truly worried about the elimination of large brood stock Grouper, then he should readily agree to the following.

I would pledge not to spear, or allow to be speared by anyone spearing on my boat any large Brood size Grouper. Period. Lets say, 50 pounds and larger. This of course would also have to be agreeded on by all the longline fishermen that Mr. Jones represents. They too, would have to agree to release any Grouper over 50 pounds that they catch. If my small spearfishing operation is really taking the majority of the large breeders like Bob claims, then the financial burden should be hardest on myself and my crew. If the longliners aren't catching almost all of the Breeders, then they should readily agree to this....???? After all, you can't have it both ways.

It seems to me like, that if they won't agree to this then what they claimed in the letter is obviously false.

You know, this is really a great idea. I thank Mr. Jones for bringing it into the open. Lets petition the Gulf Council to immediately make it illegal for any type of GOM commercial grouper fishery to possess or sell any Gag or Black grouper over 50 pounds. This will do a lot to protect the large breeders from the people that are really taking the vast majority of them.

Since Mr. Jones stated that the commercial spearfishermen are taking almost all the large breeder stock, then I would think this idea would appeal to him.


Thank You, D Macmahon

cc: Gulf Council

[Mobile Diver]

Dan,

You got'em with this. They will never agree to it.

Take care,
Steve

If Bob is so truly worried about the elimination of large brood stock Grouper, then he should readily agree to the following.

I would pledge not to spear, or allow to be speared by anyone spearing on my boat any large Brood size Grouper. Period. Lets say, 50 pounds and larger. This of course would also have to be agreeded on by all the longline fishermen that Mr. Jones represents. They too, would have to agree to release any Grouper over 50 pounds that they catch. If my small spearfishing operation is really taking the majority of the large breeders like Bob claims, then the financial burden should be hardest on myself and my crew. If the longliners aren't catching almost all of the Breeders, then they should readily agree to this....???? After all, you can't have it both ways.

It seems to me like, that if they won't agree to this then what they claimed in the letter is obviously false.

You know, this is really a great idea. I thank Mr. Jones for bringing it into the open. Lets petition the Gulf Council to immediately make it illegal for any type of GOM commercial grouper fishery to possess or sell any Gag or Black grouper over 50 pounds. This will do a lot to protect the large breeders from the people that are really taking the vast majority of them.

Since Mr. Jones stated that the commercial spearfishermen are taking almost all the large breeder stock, then I would think this idea would appeal to him.


Thank You, D Macmahon

cc: Gulf Council[/QUOTE]

[ScottZeagle]

I am willing to bet large sums of money that there is NO WAY they will ever agree to Dan's idea.

It is easy to set back and point fingers at someone, but once they call your bluff it is not always so easy to follow through.

I would guess this is especially the case when they KNOW that their original statements were 100% false.

Scott

[mcjaret]

The bad thing is that these people, even if they did agree to a size limitation, which they won't, would just turn whatever large grouper they caught into bait. A large portion of the fish would be dead by the time they got to the boat anyway so whatever they say won't make a bit of difference in their impact. Bycatch is bycatch whether too big or too small.

BTW, Bill, did you ever think that the reason Jones didn't use your pictures is because you don't fish the MG, and that's what his letter was about? If you had posted MG pictures, they might well be there along with the rest.

Reality is that the enemy, whether they be commercial interests who see their way of life threatened or "do-gooders" who view spearing a fish as akin to pulling a drive by on their moma, will use whatever they can to discredit us and usually out of context. We must remain united to ensure the truth gets out there regarding the limited and selective nature of our sport. I've probably killed many undersized fish with a hook -- didn't mean to, but I had no control over what bit. The underwater hunter selects his prey and, if lucky and skilled, brings it home. Despite some awesome individuals out there, collectively we aren't a pimple on the elephant's ass as to despoiling the gulf.

Frank

[Bill McIntyre]

BTW, Bill, did you ever think that the reason Jones didn't use your pictures is because you don't fish the MG, and that's what his letter was about? If you had posted MG pictures, they might well be there along with the rest.

Reality is that the enemy, whether they be commercial interests who see their way of life threatened or "do-gooders" who view spearing a fish as akin to pulling a drive by on their moma, will use whatever they can to discredit us and usually out of context.
Frank

Of course he wouldn't have used my pictures in that letter that was concerned with the MG, but that is beside the point. Someone said I was inconsistent in saying that those threads and associated photos gave Jones ammunition because I also posted pictures of fish, and my reply was that my posts and photos were different in tone. Its hard to keep mentioning the tone of those MG threads since they have been blocked so I can't refresh myself, but my distinct impression is that those threads didn't have to be taken much out of context because they kept saying how great these guys were and how efficient they were at taking fish. No fish was safe with these guys in the water. While that is an obvious exaggeration in terms of the health of the MG fishery, and absurd when compared to the effect of long-lining, those words, along with photos of stringers of fish, don't exactly give the impression of a bunch of guys who's primary concern is conservation. They may be the most conservation-minded people on the planet deep down in their souls, but that is not what they were conveying in those threads.

Like you said, enemies will use whatever they can to discredit us. Those threads just make it easier. And while I hate to keep coming back to this- if those threads are not damaging, why are they blocked?

[f94gator]

I'm guessing they were blocked because they were specifically singled out by Mr. Jones. I saw those pics - my response was 'nice job, guys!'. It's a shame that some *ssholes out there feel the need to manipulate the perception of them. It doesn't make the posters of the pic wrong, it just makes them and us suffer for it.

If you posted a pic with your one little pinfish and that was cited out of context, we'd probably pull that, too.

On second though, no we wouldn't. That'd be too damn funny to take down. :)

[kmoose]

Well as Danny said, banning the sale of fish over 50 lbs. would have a serious effect on a longliners bottom line profit regardless of what Jones says. The larger grouper taken on a commercial spearfishing vessel are at best very seldom and for that reason makes them "picture worthy".
I have remained pretty silent on this issue because I play on both sides of the fence, Commercial/ recreational. I have become sickened at the lack of integrity employed by the opposing factions in the commercial and environmental fishing arena. It is for this reason I will no longer post fish pictures of any kind. I am not ashamed of what I catch or how I catch it, but I will not allow it to be used to limit or ban my sport anymore than it has. I will continue to support and fight for our fishing rights but as long as there are groups of people that will stoop to any level to limit our fishing right more than they have, I will no longer post ammunition for them to use against us. Also for those of you that have made public negative responses to anyone’s catches out of jealousy or spite……well you are the “Jane Fondas” in these battles and if we lose any of our fishing rights, you will be right near the top of the list of blame. The most important thing we can do now is work together in a positive way to fight to keep the fishing rights we have now and preserve that way of life for our children.
I want it understood that I support anyone wanting to post spearfishing pictures. I feel it is one of the best parts of this board, but when you see yourself on an email to the Gulf council being used to keep you off the MGs or any other place…….well you will become sick and angry. No one is immune…….Bill, you might even find your avatar on the top of some request to ban the spearfishing of WSB….Who knows

[Md Spear]

Kmoose......... yor post of fish pix will be missed !! They were always fun

[Summerland Key]

There are two problems that need to be considered. One is that many groupers change sex, starting out life as females and latter changing to males (protogynous hermaphrodites). So, the larger fish tend to be males. One study "Age, Growth and Reproduction of Black Grouper (Mycteroperca bonaci) in Florida Waters" by Roy Carbtree and Lewis Bullock should be of interest. There were 1166 black grouper sampled. Blacks from the Keys showed a sex ratio of 1:58.7 male to female. This is thought, by some, to be a serious problem. The sex ratio of black grouper landed in Pinellas County, by comercial fishermen was much different 1:3.1 (male/female). The same study cleraly states "Our sample contained many old and large grouper, most of which came from the commercial longline fishery."
The other problem is that many just want to see spearfishing eliminated and will use any data (scientific or anecdotal) to achieve their goal. Also, they know there is concern over the removal of large groupers and would like to place the blame on someone other than themselves.
I think all Bill is saying is to think about what you post (photos and rhetoric) as there are consequences that will follow, as we just saw with the letter from Bob Jones. I know well what is caught on longline trips, what is cut up for bait, etc. but you never see any photos of this on the internet or anywhere that I know of. I also know that as far as total landings go, spearfishing only amounts for a small percentage of that total. However, if you are unfamiliar with the issue and all you see are photos of divers with large groupers, then takes the blame?
Just my two cents. Hopefully, this will not be taken as some anti-spearfishing fanatic. I am trying to be realistic about the problems we face. I still make a substantial portion of my living commercial spearfishing and would not like to lose that ability.
Don

[biggsy]

I know well what is caught on longline trips, what is cut up for bait, etc. but you never see any photos of this on the internet or anywhere that I know of. I also know that as far as total landings go, spearfishing only amounts for a small percentage of that total. However, if you are unfamiliar with the issue and all you see are photos of divers with large groupers, then takes the blame?

Don

I know there are pictures of these commercial longline trips out there, so why not show those at the meetings?
:confused:

They are the real culprits and should be held accountable.

[Charlestondivin]

I know there are pictures of these commercial longline trips out there, so why not show those at the meetings?
:confused:

They are the real culprits and should be held accountable.





Like these?

[Charlestondivin]

.

[Charlestondivin]

..

[Charlestondivin]

From Florida Sportsman, February 2000 "On the Conservation Front"
"Fed Up Commercial Longliner Reveals Nightmarish Killing on the High Seas"

"… In the midst of these quarrels among brothers [recreational fishing organizations on the proposed longline legislation known as the Breaux Bill] came a most unusual call to Florida Sportsman. It was an I-can't-stand-it-anymore longliner. He's quitting the business and was willing to talk with Editor Jeff Weakley on tape about the commercial fisher's feelings of disgust. We'll simply call him Longliner in these excerpts adapted from two interviews. Ironically, the crewman's revelations are an extension of another former longliner's "confessions" published by Florida Sportsman. We called for emergency action then. That was 12 years ago. Karl Wickstrom

FS: How long did you work as a longliner out of Ft. Pierce?
LONGLINER: About ten years.
FS: What kind of boat did you work on?
LONGLINER: They were fiberglass, one was a 60-footer, one was a 45-footer. But there were three or four boats I worked.
FS: What did you fish for?
LONGLINER: Swordfish was our money fish, and tuna was our money fish. That was our main high dollar fish that we would catch. And also dolphin—mahi mahi—we caught a lot of that. And when shark was in season, we could bring that in, too. But we caught everything from marlin, sailfish, turtles, whales, big monster squid. You name it, we caught it.
FS: Were there certain times of year or places where you'd catch more marlin?
LONGLINER: Pretty much anywhere we'd fish. We were always catching marlin and sailfish. It seemed like we caught more of 'em when we were fishing in the Straits. There would be days when we would catch, God, twenty, thirty sailfish; and you know, there would be a marlin in there, too. But then if we would go offshore to fish for tunas, we'd catch a few out there, but they were usually big, humongous marlin.

FS: What happened to the marlin?
LONGLINER: Well, once we got it up close to the boat and we could see what it was, if we knew it was a marlin, we could cut it off and let it swim away. You know, they put up a pretty good fight. But most of the time they would come up dead. That was one of the things that really got to me—all the dead fish that we would pull up.

FS: You would be out for a whole week?
LONGLINER: Yeah, sometimes longer.

FS: What time of day did you set your lines?
LONGLINER: You start right before dark.

FS: Why that time? Is that when swordfish bite better?
LONGLINER: Yeah, that's just when they bite, that and it had to do with sharks— you didn't want your line to be in the water early, because sharks can see it.

FS: What time of day would you pull in your lines?
LONGLINER: We start at six thirty or seven; try to get done around one in the afternoon.

FS: What kind of rigging?
LONGLINER: Mono. The main line was anywhere from 700- to 900-pound test, and our leaders were 400-pound test. And then the buoy drops, they would be like 200-pound test. And then we would have snaps; our snaps, we would have them at the end of the leader, and snap them on the main line. We were using like 9/0 hooks.

FS: Circle hooks or J hooks?
LONGLINER: J hooks, no circle hooks.

FS: How many hooks would be on a line?
LONGLINER: Four to five hundred.

FS: How long did the line stretch?
LONGLINER: The 60-foot boat I worked on—I worked on that for like three years—we were fishing forty miles. But then the smaller boats I worked on, they were 20 miles, 25 miles.

FS: What would be a good week's catch?
LONGLINER: We mostly go by pounds. If we caught 3,000 pounds of swordfish, that was a pretty good catch. That's pretty much paycheck. Price of fish had a lot to do with it. But there was a lot of bycatch—a lot of undersize swordfish that we would catch. And it would really get to you some days. You would look behind the boat and there would be just a trail of dead fish floating. And there was nothing you could do with them because you can't bring 'em in, legally, 33 pounds or under. And they were just all dead; over 90 percent are dead when they come up. If they are alive, you know, you cut the leader. If they were alive, we sure tried to make sure they swam away. You didn't want to kill them. It just, it really, I mean it got so a lot of us. I wasn't the only one. A lot of guys felt the same way.

FS: Did you enter that stuff in a log book?
LONGLINER: Well, not…. Some of it, you know…

FS: Like you record the number of swordfish, would you make a mark if you caught a marlin or a dolphin?
LONGLINER: Yeah, well, most of the guys I worked with didn't. The owner of one boat told me, "Don't write down nothing. It just adds fuel to the fire." I used to work with a guy who insisted on bringing marlin and sailfish in and cutting their throats; we'd send 'em away bleeding so they wouldn't mess with our gear. Hundreds of 'em. It happens all the time. I've done it, and I feel bad about it. That was back when I first started. I was kind of green. Anything that would mess with the gear, they had to kill it.

FS: What's the most marlin you caught in a day?
LONGLINER: Oh God, once you get in 'em, you're in 'em. I ain't really sure how many, maybe a dozen. Mostly sailfish— once you get in sailfish, you're in 'em.

FS: How far offshore were you catching the sailfish?
LONGLINER: Oh, that would be in the Straits. We catch 'em all in the Straits, from the Keys all the way to Canaveral. But it would seem like if we were offshore, that we were catching bigger marlin, big monster marlin.

ES: You mentioned you'd catch a turtle or a whale. How many of those would you catch in a month?
LONGLINER: When the turtles are really active or something, then about every day, in summertime. In winter, not as much, but you'd still catch a half a dozen a month.

FS: What would you do with a turtle?
LONGLINER: Cut it loose and let it swim away. None of those were dead.

FS: And the whales?
LONGLINER: They would always be alive. We used to hate catching them; they'd fight the whole way, trying to get away.

FS: What kind of whales?
LONGLINER: Mostly pilot whales.

FS: So what about dolphin (mahi-mahi)?

LONGLINER: We used to really catch a whole bunch, but it isn't nowhere near what it used to be, weight wise. We used to bring in three, four thousand pounds a week in summer when they were running. We'd be up off South Carolina and North Carolina. But it just don't happen no more.

"... we'd send 'em away bleeding so they wouldn't mess up our gear. "

[Charlestondivin]

continued.

FS: If you're targeting just dolphin, how do you fish? Different than swordfish?
LONGLINER: We never really targeted them. We were swordfishing, and they were just part of the bycatch.

FS: So the dolphin would bite at night?
LONGLINER: Yeah.

FS: And how deep were your lines?
LONGLINER: A hundred and fifty feet.

FS: Did you fish for yellowfin tuna?
LONGLINER: We caught lots of tunas. In wintertime, it seemed like the swordfish would slow down in the Straits. It's a choice—go catch swords, or go east and catch some tuna. Lots of guys, instead of fight the current, they'd go out and tuna fish.

FS: How far offshore?
LONGLINER: A hundred and fifty miles; you know where the conservation line is?

FS: The EEZ [exclusive economic zone]?
LONGLINER: At a place called the Corner, where it takes a sharp right-hand turn. Out in that area, 150 to 180 miles from the dock on the GPS.

FS: And the swordfish were closer?
LONGLINER: Yeah.

FS: How far offshore in the Straits?
LONGLINER: We'd start in 100 fathoms, and run the line all way to the EEZ. If we had more line to set, we would swing around and do like a horseshoe; before you went over the line [EEZ], you'd turn north, go a little ways, and turn inshore.

FS: In ten years, what did you notice as far as trends in the fishing?
LONGLINER: I noticed how, when we first started, it wasn't nothing to catch four or five thousand pounds in seven days. Now you got to stay out longer; the fishing's just getting worse and worse. But the thing that really got to me was having to throw back all them dead fish, all them dead swordfish. There'd be days when 40 or 50 fish, all undersize, we'd throw back in the water.

FS: What's the smallest swordfish you've caught?
LONGLINER: We seen some babies. Small. Maybe five pounds at that.

FS: And what would be a big swordfish?
LONGLINER: Biggest I ever unloaded, guts out, weighed 453 pounds. It was a monster. We had to get in the water, cut off the head and gut it or the hydraulic boom wouldn't bring it in the boat.

FS: What would you get per pound for a fish like that?
LONGLINER: Four, five dollars a pound.

FS: Did you see fewer bigger fish in the last couple of years?
LONGLINER: Yeah, definitely.

FS: And were you getting less for your fish at the end of a trip?
LONGLINER: We'd still get money. In winter, we get better money for our fish, 'cause boats up north can't fish; it's so rough up there. In summer, price pretty much drops down to around three dollars a pound.

FS: So what made you get out of the fishery?

LONGLINER: I can't see swordfishing being around much longer. The government, they gotta step in and close it down before all the fish disappear, or they're gonna regulate it so bad to where you can't make no money at it. I just got tired of it.

FS: Were some of the other captains talking about getting out?
LONGLINER: Yeah, lots of them would like to. But it's a pretty good job. It's fun and exciting, if you like doing that kind of stuff. You make good money when the fish are biting.

FS: If you had recommendations for the government, what would you suggest?
LONGLINER: Tell them they need to close it down for a while, close down the Straits or something. I ain't kidding you. There were some days - and I mean this goes on every week - that we was out there we would be catching anywhere from, some days forty, fifty undersize fish. -Maybe five of them would swim away. That just don't make no sense.

FS: How many boats would be out on night?
LONGLINER: All the boats out of Ft. Pierce, and the ones out of Pompano there would be a line of boats, fifty miles apart. The only way to keep in touch was through radio. Sometime it was hard to find a place to fish be cause of all the boats out there. Ten or twenty sometimes.

FS: When you're bringing in fish, can you see what other guys are bringing in?
LONGLINER: If we get done early before another boat and we were close enough a couple of times we rode over to watch 'em bring in their line.

FS: What did you see? Marlin sometimes?
LONGLINER: Something really sticks in my head; it was bringing up all then undersize fish, just one after the other.

FS: All of them dead?
LONGLINER: Yeah. They don't stand a chance.

[eyyeball]

One word.

Evil

[biggsy]

Reading it, the guy sounds genuine. Kinda sickening when LL are making it out like we are the ones raping the resources when they have so much bycatch.

[Charlestondivin]

The Headhunter guys are what commercial fishing should be.

No dead turtles
No dead Seabirds
No scores of undersized fish dead.
No gear left on the bottom

Longliners were kicked off our coast long ago and the fishing is good.

[Bill McIntyre]

It is for this reason I will no longer post fish pictures of any kind. I am not ashamed of what I catch or how I catch it, but I will not allow it to be used to limit or ban my sport anymore than it has.
(clip)

Also for those of you that have made public negative responses to anyone’s catches out of jealousy or spite……well you are the “Jane Fondas” in these battles and if we lose any of our fishing rights, you will be right near the top of the list of blame. The most important thing we can do now is work together in a positive way to fight to keep the fishing rights we have now and preserve that way of life for our children.
(clip)

No one is immune…….Bill, you might even find your avatar on the top of some request to ban the spearfishing of WSB….Who knows

Its too bad you feel you can't post photos. I think you should, but without the sort of verbiage that was in those threads. There is a way to say that you got some fish without all that stuff. Sure, those who oppose us can try to use anything we post, but it won't be so easy to use against us if it expresses humility rather than bragging about how efficient we were as killers.

I posted a lot of stories on the FDL last summer and a lot of photos on a web site. I'll resist the temptation to bore you by pasting one of the stories in here, but I don't see them as providing the same sort of ammunition to our opponents as did those threads. Of course that is entirely subjective, but I'm not the only diver who was a bit put off by the tone of those threads.

If you are saying that I'm one of those "Jane Fondas" then I refuse to accept that, and I can assure you that I am not jealous of you. I don't want to see you lose your right to do your kind of diving, but its not something that inspires jealousy in me.

I don't want to see you lose your right to spear on the MG. If I did, I'd be working with Jones rather than posting here. I agree with you that we should work together in a positive way. Unfortunately, you seem unwilling to accept any suggestions as positive. I don't expect that everyone will agree with my perceptions of what looks good or bad, but I would hope that they could accept the fact that I have good intentions. Jane Fonda was out there talking to the enemy and the press. I am in here talking to you, even if you don't like what I say.

Jane also has a nicer ass than I do.

[Ed Walker]

Hmmmm... I dunno man. Some of that stuff sounds a little funny.
Sure aint nothin' good about killing the number of non-target creatures that the longliners do though. There is no place for such indiscriminate fishing methods in this day and age. Wont be long and they will be gone. ;)