Something to Think about

[Spearo_Fla]

A lot of you know me, I'm a pretty straight shooter. I have donated to FRA and they seem to be making head way with state officals. I'm not a politition (sp). I am a freediving spearfishing person. Even when I own my boat I did not have rods on it. Like you I pay for the right to fish in Florida waters just like the thousand other fishermen and Spearfishing people.

I think the spearfishing community needs to go on an offensive rather then always be on the defense. I feel if a Line Fishermen can catch it then we should be able to Spear it. Case in hand- Pompano and Permit- were taken from us in the 90's. Why? who knows those fish like many others joined the ranks of sport fish. So why does the linefishermen have a right to fish for sport fish and we don't?

Pompano and Permit are not a fish that just hangs around to be slautered. They run all over the place. While we are on the subject I have never seen so many Snook around. On the second reef on the third reef and even around wrecks. Like the GG there numbers are rising fast.

Why is it ok for fishermen to line fish snook and we can't spear them. Ok officer its ok for me to continuely drop a hook and line and try to catch a snook that is the right size during a certain time of the year. But if I put on a mask and go down and select the right fish you'll give me a ticket!

What's up with that? Makes totally no sense at all. Before we know Line Sportfishing will indentify every species we hunt and claim that it's a protected species.

I'd like to see a effort to regain our rights to shoot the same species line fishermen can catch. Across the board it needs to be the same.

[WreckDiver]

The tides are slowly turning, hang in there. Big battles first then we go back and pick off the other issues. Most of these other issues came to pass because we had no collective voice.

[kitefisherman]

and african pompano and tripletail

[bgbill]

John.

The FRA's stance is, equal rights for all attended gear, if it can be taken with a hook and line, it should be able to be taken with a speargun.

The Snook Issue came up a a couple of years ago, but did not pass, the hook and line crowd does not understand how hard it is to shoot fish, they think it's like shooting fish in a barrel, which it isn't.

Snook, or anyother fish that is not targeted by spearfishermen, will be relatively easy to get initially, but believe me, once a fish realizes they are a target, they wise up real fast.

I would like to see the FRA get all of the things you mentioned done, but it will take money, and unfortunately, a lot of people expect the other guy to take care of it.

I know guys that haven't been to a meeting, haven't joined the FRA, or given 1 dime towards the effort to get an injunction agains the NMFS, yet he enjoys grouper fishing.

I know a guide that hasn't lifted a finger to help, yet benefits from the work of others.

Contact Denny with your concerns, he will listen, and the FRA is the only Fishing Rights group that I am aware that actually wants input from its members, the other groups have their own agenda, and as far as I can tell, don't want input from their members.

[morey_b]

I raised this very same issue a couple months ago and since I didn't know where to turn for answers, I mailed the FWC and queried them on it. Their response follows. It is totally unfair in and something needs to be done to rectify the situation.


Customer (William Meyer) 09/19/2005 07:06 PM
Why are the following fish species not allowed to be speared when they may be caught on hook and line! Snook, pompano, tarpon, permit, redfish, tripletail and billfish. What is the reasoning behind these regulations? I as well as many colleagues would like to know the answer to this question.

William Meyer
Ft Pierce

Response (MFM-GG) 09/28/2005 10:45 AM
Good Morning Mr. Meyer,

Thank you for your inquiry to the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. Snook, pompano, tarpon, permit, redfish, tripletail and billfish are considered sportfish and thus only hook and line may lawfully be used.

I hope that this information assists in your inquiry. Please feel free to contact us if you have any further questions.

Jessica R. McCawley
Biological Scientist IV
Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
Division of Marine Fisheries Management
2590 Executive Center Cir. E, Suite 201
Talllahassee, FL 32301
Ph: 850-487-0554

Auto-Response 09/19/2005 07:06 PM
Title: How do I report a potential state record fish?
Link: http://askit.myfwc.com/cgi-bin/myfwc.cfg/php/enduser/popup_adp.php?p_faqid=1723&p_created=1124975197

Title: What are game fish?
Link: http://askit.myfwc.com/cgi-bin/myfwc.cfg/php/enduser/popup_adp.php?p_faqid=1131&p_created=1041711342

Title: What regulations apply to harvesting frogs?
Link: http://askit.myfwc.com/cgi-bin/myfwc.cfg/php/enduser/popup_adp.php?p_faqid=1139&p_created=1041968126

Title: What types of recreational fishing nets may I use?
Link: http://askit.myfwc.com/cgi-bin/myfwc.cfg/php/enduser/popup_adp.php?p_faqid=1168&p_created=1043159470

Title: I heard the entire Florida Keys is now a Marine Sanctuary, does this mean I am not allowed to catch fish or lobster there anymore?
Link: http://askit.myfwc.com/cgi-bin/myfwc.cfg/php/enduser/popup_adp.php?p_faqid=1629&p_created=1124373350
Customer (William Meyer) 09/28/2005 01:35 PM

I understand that they are game/sport fish (that being that they are prized fighters and fun to catch) but my question is why does this fact lead to them being banned from spearfishing? Surely a dead fish is a dead fish, whether caught by hook and line or speared by a diver. If an angler can catch and eat a game fish then why cant a diver shoot and eat one?
The reason cannot be to conserve game fish numbers because recreational spearfishermen have a negligibable impact if any on fish numbers as opposed to recreational fishermen!

So again I ask, why are they banned from being speared by recreational spearfishermen when they may be killed by hook and liners? It doesnt make sense!

Awaiting your reply
Thanks

Will Meyer


Response (MFM-GG) 10/04/2005 11:21 AM
Good Morning Mr. Meyer,

The following response has been provided by Lee Schlesinger of the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission:

These species are categorized as sportfish as opposed to "food fish" in that they are highly valuable for sport. Several years ago when the Commission was developing the spearfishing regulation multiple public workshops and meetings were held to determine which species would be considered "appropriate" for spearing. The Commission sought to provide the same species limits in regards to gear types and harvest methods. These public workshops were organized to address the concerns of both the spearfishing public and hook and line anglers, and supporters of both groups were present. They worked to determine the best use of the resources from the perspective of conservation. The Commission has strived to promote catch and release practices as a means of resource sustainability. Due to each of these factors, the species that were determined to be inappropriate for spearing were prohibited to be harvested as such. These species also carry heavier harvest regulations. From the workshops, it was determined that there was very little public support for the harvest of the inshore species you have listed. As for the offshore species, billfish and sharks are considered to be over fished and heavier restrictions are enforced with emphasis on proper release techniques for those that are not kept. The outcome of this series of public workshops emphasized the lack of support shown for the harvest of these certain species by spearing methods. It was then determined that those species shall not be harvested by means of spearing.

I hope that this information further clarifies your inquiry. Should you wish to discuss this further, please feel free to contact Lee Schlesinger at (850) 487-0554 and he will gladly review the decision making process with you.

Thank you,
S. Gail Gainey
Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
Division of Marine Fisheries Management
Visit us at MyFWC.com

[Steel Shootin']

I think your points are well taken, and you'd find general agreement. Bret will tell you he and I were on a spot recently that had so many monster snook you couldn't beat them off of you. Yeah, it would have been nice to take one.

I think The FRA has been on the offensive. There is no more an offensive move that can be made than filing suit in Federal Court. That immediately sent the Counsel reeling and put them on the defensive, which is a role they were not used to. I think The FRA, or any group, much choose it's fights wisely. By that I mean that there are only so many assets available to you at any point in time, and resources are at a premium. Denny and The FRA has harnessed it's resources wisely and have achieved victories that were improbable. Like Bret said, I know Denny and The FRA listen to feedback.

[PatMyGreen]

I agree that those are things we need to address, and I think they will be addressed. If we had been this organized back then they never would have gone away completely. But do you think if we were actively pursuing the right to shoot say..... red drum that CCA's constituents would be okay with that? We (recreational sector) need a united front more than anything else to prevent our grouper from going away and again to get what we lost back.

Pompano and permit really agitate me too since I see them up here on occassion and I don't know anyone here that targets them H&L. I would love to get redfish and maybe one day we will, but as long as the limit is just one fish and alot of the people targeting them are catch and release I can wait till the stocks are reassessed at a higher level before I scream foul on that one. Fish with a higher bag limit though should ABSOLUTELY be fair game.

I have been told that part of the reason that some of these fish are off limits is that they are slot fish, with both minimum and maximum size limits. The thought being that we, spearfishermen, can't estimate size well underwater?! :mad:

[junior]

I like to see the wheels turning. Spearfisherman have a voice that is getting stronger and more organized. I can think of no other organization that has the spearfisherman more at heart than the FRA. At a minimum, everyone on this board should join. In fact, I know Scott will probably not agree, but I wonder if he would consider making certain portions of the forum (regional reports perhaps) accessible only to those who have paid the minimum $35 to join the FRA.

[Belzelbub]

I wonder if he would consider making certain portions of the forum (regional reports perhaps) accessible only to those who have paid the minimum $35 to join the FRA.

If it were the Bikini thread, that would probably increase FRA membership.
:D

[Chad Carney]

I agree with PMG, the larger issues that are currently threatening all recreational fishermen are more important, and will require them to work together to prohibit future restrictions.

As unfair as these separate rules are, there could be a large negative consequence in going after equal status on current laws, with little chance of overturning any.

However, future equality is essential! I've been told by old timers that spearfishermen helped raise the awareness of the threatened status of snook, prior to the species being taken away from them alone. In my opinion, similar travesties of inequality under the law, include the exclusive fishing rights on bridges and jetties, in state and national parks, and the current 10% federal excise tax on spearfishing equipment.

As Scott said, we must choose our battles wisely!

Chad

[Marcus]

I would love to get redfish and maybe one day we will, but as long as the limit is just one fish and alot of the people targeting them are catch and release I can wait till the stocks are reassessed at a higher level before I scream foul on that one.

I disagree with that, Pat. If they're allowed to be harvested on H & L then they should on spearfishing gear...period.

[bgbill]

I disagree with that, Pat. If they're allowed to be harvested on H & L then they should on spearfishing gear...period.

I agree, there is no reason that a less selective method, hook and line, should be preferred over the most selective method, spearfishing.

Have you ever seen how many snook and big ones hang out around the bridges?

[Spear One]

I think we should be allowed to spear them as well. At large portion of their most common inshore habitat is already protected from speafishing. Docks, bridges, seawalls, beaches, etc. are off limits to spearfisherman. In Pinellas county you cannot spear within 500 feet of any "fixed land object" or a under a bridge with a "catwalk". I think these closed areas offer Snook plenty of protection from any possible overfishing by spearfisherman.

Spearfisherman have historically done a very good job of judging minimum sizes of fish. Therefore, spearfisherman would not likely have a problem with the existing slot limit currently in place for Snook. A 2 person bag limit per boat would be a fair compromise as well IMO.

[Polystigma]

Fishing and spearfishing are baisically the same thing. The same rules should apply to both. People who make these laws are retards. Like the one on the west coast of releasing dead undersized rockfish. Its dead anyways why not take it and eat it. But no you have to release it! WTF. The damn seagulls wont even eat the dead floating rockfish. They are just too spiney.
I do not agree with this method and law but I follow it anyways because I dont have another choice. :(

[morey_b]

Polystigma your point on keeping the dead undersized rockfish I disagree with. I dont know much about rockfish out there but what would prevent an angler from keeping live undersized rockfish and saying "oh well they were dead, I couldn't throw them back" when caught with them.

[Ed Walker]

It would be ugly what would happen to the snook if spearfishing were ever allowed (which it will never be). They are already in pretty big trouble in West Florida hence the reductions from 2 to 1, nearly half the year closed, slot size limit, and the population is still declining. Too many people targeting a predicatable fish that lives along the shore. I would guess that big snook are the most commonly illegal fish taken. Thier knack for refusing to strike a baited hook is the only reason there are any left.
Some fish I agree should be open such as AP, permit, and tripletail but personally I agree with not including snook, tarpon (?), reds, and billfish. Anyone who can hit a florida pompano deserves to keep it. Thats one that has nothing to worry about from shooters.

[bgbill]

Ed,

I see hundreds if not thousands of snook when I dive the bridges, I honestly do not see a problem with allowing snook to be shot, what is the difference if I buy my Snook Stamp and shoot one within the slot limit and if I caught one hook and line?

I think it would be less stressful and less of a negative impact to shoot your one snook, rather than catch a bunch of them and realease them.

I am primarily a spearfisherman, and offshore fisherman, but why shouldn't I be allowed to go shoot a snook, or a redfish?

[Ed Walker]

I think snook would be far to easy with a speargun. Those bridges would be wiped clean within a few months of a spear season being opened and I cant imagine the yahoos that would show up out there with loaded guns.
I fish for snook a couple hundred days a year and have done so for more than 15 years. I could take you on a tour of spots they gather in clean shallow water everyday and almost never bite. I could also show you fifty spots they used to inhabit but no longer do. Its hard to explain but snook are different than most fish and they truly are in trouble, on this coast that is(the East coast is different). Yes, there are some places they school such as the passes/bridges but overall their numbers are way down due to immense fishing pressure. Personally Id be fine if they closed them to harvest to everyone. I never kill them for myself and I strongly encourage my clients to let them go.
Besides all that, nothing would start a war between rod and reel fishermen and spearfishermen faster than a push to open snook to shooting.

[ROBERTO REYES]

""The Commission sought to provide the same species limits in regards to gear types and harvest methods. These public workshops were organized to address the concerns of both the spearfishing public and hook and line anglers, and supporters of both groups were present. They worked to determine the best use of the resources from the perspective of conservation. The Commission has strived to promote catch and release practices as a means of resource sustainability. Due to each of these factors, the species that were determined to be inappropriate for spearing were prohibited to be harvested as such. These species also carry heavier harvest regulations. From the workshops, it was determined that there was very little public support for the harvest of the inshore species you have listed. As for the offshore species, billfish and sharks are considered to be over fished and heavier restrictions are enforced with emphasis on proper release techniques for those that are not kept. The outcome of this series of public workshops emphasized the lack of support shown for the harvest of these certain species by spearing methods""


I see you guys dont get it.
They made a few public hearings, there were no spearos to protest
and they made the laws acording to what the general public on the hearings wanted to do, and thats it, thats the way they made the laws , and justify their salary.
The same thing happened here, but they wanted to prohibit all spearfishing at all, I was there, on every single public hearing, but once the law is passed, its very hard to change.
You need to ask for the studies, the names of the marine biologist who conducted the studies, and get a good lawyer to work on this, it does not seems they have any ground for this laws, as simple as that.
But money talks, and B. walks, I did got a lwayer, it was one of my group, he did it for us.

[bgbill]

Ed,

If the bridge has a catwalk on it, we can't shoot there anyway.

As far as them being in trouble, I doubt it, but you know more about it than I do.

I have seen large schools of them on the Muliphen on the East Coast, they were huge, and probably close to 800-1000 of them, I had always heard they did not school up, and were not in deep water, but I was amzed at the sight of them, to be honest, it took a lot of self control not to shoot one.

I thought a couple of years ago it was brought up about shooting snook, but it didn't get through, I presume because the H&L crowd would have went ballistic.

[morey_b]

In the past, the way most citizens went about protesting laws that were unjust was simply to break them in defiance. It would be a good way to put a spotlight on the topic and get those in power to recognize the faction that does not agree with the laws in place. Imagine it, across Florida spearo's start getting cited for illegal harvest of fish by spear. They complain to the officer, "well I saw a bunch of guys back at the dock catching and keeping Snook, so I figured it was fair game, right?" "
"But Sir it is illegal to spear those fish, it is the law!"
"Well I dont understand it, can you explain why?"
"Urrgh"

In protest, spearo's take their stories of citations to the press, articles start running in the papers about the sudden rise in incidents, why are they being cited and why aren't these fish allowed to be speared when they can be harvested with H & L?

This scenario may actually get more attention than a few lawyers behind desks, and may be cheaper too. Not saying this is the way to go about it but it is an interesting scenario.

Cheers

[Denny]

The times, they are a' changin'.
So many issues. So little time.
i'll take up the spearing of certain fish that are not allowed to currently be harvested by spear. I am meeting with the commissioners ovetr the next two days.
The FRA has legal muscle that can be flexed on these issues if need be.
I think that the commissioners are reasonable and can be convinced to see things our way. the FWC commissioners have done a pretty good job with Florida's fish. There is just some fine tuning to be done.

[Grauer]

I share Ed feelings on being able to shoot snook. I think spearguns would fly off the shelves if snook would be legal to shoot.

On the same note when I was in the keys on my last trip, I had to hold back from shooting a snook in 70fsw.

I think maybe, just a sugestion, that when the time comes to fight for the right to shoot "sportfish" that we try to write/create laws that alllows for the harvest of snook/redfish in offshore waters not inshore waters.
Im not sure how it would be enforced though or written.

Chris

[Fish Tale]

In my opinion, similar travesties of inequality under the law, include the exclusive fishing rights on bridges and jetties, in state and national parks.

Chad

And in places that are not considered protected habitat.

Collier County Florida banned spearfishing in all county waters. Years ago Charlotte County Florida passed an ordinance that outlawed spearfishing landward of it's barrier islands. That means that most of Charlotte Harbor and all of it's intercoastal waters are off limits to spearfishing. Charlotte County created the law to remove spearfisherman from the residential canals. They took away a massive public resource just to keep loaded spearguns away from docks, parked boats, and the dock owners pet fish.

Inshore spearfishing opportunities are a valuable resource to spearfisherman and the sport of spearfishing. Closing down inshore waters to spearfishing or declaring fish species as off limits to spearfishing diminishes spearfishing as a recreational activity. People commit lots of money to recreation. No reason to commit real money to spearfishing equipment, boats, fuel, and dive gear if opportunities are too limited to allow spearfishing to be a recreational activity.

Diminished public access to a natural resource also means less protection for the natural resource. I chose to pass on the purchase of a snook permit this year. The H & L open season is so limited that the snook is really not a part of my fishing experience anymore. I'll still catch and release a few snook but I no longer target them and I won't pay extra for the managment of a resource that I don't look to for recreation.

[bgbill]

I share Ed feelings on being able to shoot snook. I think spearguns would fly off the shelves if snook would be legal to shoot.
Chris

I disagree there, I think the FRA has the right idea.

If it can be taken with a hook and line, it should be able to be taken with a speargun, equal treatment for all gear types.

I doubt the flats fishermen that are fishing for Snook are all of a sudden going to be buying spearguns, and if the do, that would be great.

Right now less than 2% of all fish taken are with spearguns, how much impact could that have on the Snook population?

I doubt we would ever be able to shoot Snook, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't ba able to.

I am not going the route of civil disobedience on this issue, it is not that important to me.

[PatMyGreen]

I think you guys misunderstand me. I agree that if they can take one I should be too, it is unfair that we can't. However it isn't my first choice for a fight with limited resources. Denny is the man with the battle plan and I will follow his lead. If it is legal to keep a fish it should be legal to shoot said fish. If they want to make them catch and release only then thats another thing. From a conservation stand point they should be closed or open not open to some and closed to others. That makes for unfair management.

Do you treally think spearguns will fly off the shelves for a fish that you can only keep one of? That is a hell of an investment for one fish a day that you have to get wet for. I can't imagine that many people would be willing to quit the hook and line dry life and convert so easily. I think they'd just bitch about spearos taking all their fish to make excuses for not catching them anymore.

[Grauer]

May be fly off the shelf was a poor choice of words.

However I do believe that anyone who has access to docks/ seawall could potentially walk out to the end of their dock and pop a snook or a red fish especially as the waters cool and the fish move in to the shallow canals and creeks.

I not speaking of the responsible anglers or shooters. I'm talking about high school kids, property owners etc. Out of towner's etc. people who dint feel any responsibility toward their resources.

It is just too easy to set up a dock light and walk out to the end dock and shoot a fish that is sitting still in 1-3 fsw. Talk about shooting fish in a barrel.
The same people who are willing to shoot snook from a dock are the same people who harvest more than thier limit.

Like I said I am all for shooting reds and snook, But I think it should be regulated to offshore. example being the Panellals artificial reefs, I have seen snook and other "Sport fish" on these wrecks n rubble. Why cant i shoot them if they are in open water.

[PatMyGreen]

I wish that didn't make sense. Honest question here, Do we really regulate the resource with the bad apples in mind? Meaning; if they will break the rules, will a rule change affect their actions?

[Fish Tale]

Interesting paradigms are surfacing even amoung fellow spearos.

Assuming that snook were legal to shoot in inshore waters; some people who could take a legal species in a legal location have the idea that it's wrong to do so because it's not sporting? Not picking on anyone here, I'm just pointing out that even people who believe in spearfishing as a method of harvesting fish think in emotional terms of sport quality rather than scientific resource managment. Fisheries resource managment is based on sustainability of the resource and IMO should never be linked to emotional value. IMO the sporting or not paradigm is what has always been the spearfisherman's plague when it comes to regulation and being excluded from the resource.

The largest hurdle spearfishing has when it comes to an equal share of the resource is that fishing success is often equated with self worth. That connection causes people to shift their value system from scientific resource managment to an emotion based paradigm that has no chance of managing a resource for sustainability or equality.

[bgbill]

May be fly off the shelf was a poor choice of words.

However I do believe that anyone who has access to docks/ seawall could potentially walk out to the end of their dock and pop a snook or a red fish especially as the waters cool and the fish move in to the shallow canals and creeks.

I not speaking of the responsible anglers or shooters. I'm talking about high school kids, property owners etc. Out of towner's etc. people who dint feel any responsibility toward their resources.

It is just too easy to set up a dock light and walk out to the end dock and shoot a fish that is sitting still in 1-3 fsw. Talk about shooting fish in a barrel.
The same people who are willing to shoot snook from a dock are the same people who harvest more than thier limit.

Like I said I am all for shooting reds and snook, But I think it should be regulated to offshore. example being the Panellals artificial reefs, I have seen snook and other "Sport fish" on these wrecks n rubble. Why cant i shoot them if they are in open water.

Chris,

If someone is going to shoot a snook off of a dock, are the same people that are going to take fish over their limit, what law is going to keep them from doing that?

Just because some people break the law, is no reason not to be fair to those that follow the laws.

It is kind of like gun control, there are all sorts of laws out there, that only certain people can buy and carry certain types of guns, yet the criminals, who are already breaking the law by, raping, robbing and killing people, aren't going to worry about gun laws.

It's like poacher's, they already are breaking the law by being poacher's, so whats the big deal if thye break another law?

Unfortunately game laws like gun laws do not get enforced very often, and then the panzie ass judges let people off with a slap on the wrist, or the prosecutors plea bargain it down to practically no penalty at all.

[Grauer]

When the time comes I will side with equal rights for user groups in fishery mangement.