Flag Law

[SCRAPPY]

Do the MA/RI Flag laws apply to freediving?

I use a Rob Allen float that has a 4"X 4" flag, and on a few occasions that flag has been torn off when diving close to shore. Has anyone been given a citation?

[titaniumdiver]

Whatever the law it is always a safe practice IMO....are you sure you don't mean a 4' x 4' flag....4" x " 4" would be kinda small :D

I don't know about up there but here in Florida, yes it applies to freediving as well....you are in more danger freediving anyway....given you have to resurface every couple minutes...unless you are Gr or Sacha ;)

[jackpine savage]

It applies in MA. I only free dive here and I went out last spring for my first dive and absent mindedly forgot myfloat and flag, a DNR officer stopped me on the beach after my dive to tell me I should always have a flag when diving. Must say he was pretty cool about it, probably doesn't see many people spearfishing in these parts

[needgills]

Absolutely required in RI:
RI Handbook (http://www.boat-ed.com/ri/handbook/flags.htm)
I know at least one harbormaster that will do his job in this regard... RIDEM will also check and fine you as well.

Also, note the flag must be at least 12" x12" The ones that come on many floats don't come close...

[scrounger]

if you use that little flag it will cost you money in ri. but what is a few bill compared to having a boater come check that little thing out and clip you with the prop. i dont know if the flag on my riffe float is legal but it is big enough so they oly ask to see my fish. not a short one to date :thumps:

[CTFreeDiver]

The useless 4 inch by 4 inch dive flags that come with some euro floats are dangerous! Who care's about the fine, a boat at 30+ MPH has enough trouble seeing a legal dive flag. Some divers are foolish enough to take a legal size dive flag and wrap it around a boat bumper that floats like a red log on the water and think that their butt is covered.

The Rhode Island regulation for dive flags states that a diver must stay within 50 feet of their flag and that boats must not come closer than 50 feet. There is no buffer for error! The RI state legal (for a dive float) 12 inch by 12 inch is even too small. Don't bother with blue/white flags, most boaters in the north east don't know what a red/white diver down flag is let alone an Alpha.

When the day comes that I run over a diver who uses a 4 inch by 4 inch dive flag there will be absolutely no regrets on my end. I almost got two scuba divers, two years ago that did not have a dive flag while several hundred yards from shore. All I ask is that their next of kin buy me a new prop.

Fly the biggest dive flag you can afford and fly it high. For the divers that dive without them on occasion... you are asking for it.

CT

[clavinr]

Lesson learned:

I had my flag on on my kayak and had my red torpedo (without a flag) on my line...I was in front of Sakonnet Point lighthouse...I was in that MFs cavitation. It was no joke.

Shame on me for not having the flag on my float.

The boater was going flat out and probably would not have seen the float..flag or kayak. It was ugly.

PS Needgills...I love that Avatar. how did you shoot that clip?

[needgills]

FYI: The blue and white "alpha" flag is required by the COLREGS for any vessel engaged in diving. This includes "inland" waters. No one follows this, but technically both flags are required. I agree with others comments about crazy boaters...bigger and higher the flag the better.

Clav: Shot the avatar holding a digital camera in one hand and the gun in the other. Good vis off BI one day... Hard to aim and shoot one handed...

[Sergio DaSilva]

When the day comes that I run over a diver who uses a 4 inch by 4 inch dive flag there will be absolutely no regrets on my end. I almost got two scuba divers, two years ago that did not have a dive flag while several hundred yards from shore. All I ask is that their next of kin buy me a new prop.

CT
Hey Mike,
Pretty strong words, tough guy...where did you get such big balls? Just remember, that diver you run over might just be someone you know.

[clavinr]

Easy guys. Why can't we all just get along? ;-)

PS Camera in one hand, gun in the other...I pictured some fancy Joe Cam or something!

[Chauggie]

CT,
The other day at Sea Rovers, there were hours spent warning divers about shallow water blackout and not one mention of the dangers of getting run over by a boat. Eventually a spearfisher will die in our region while pursuing the sport. The cause Shark-NO, SWB- Unlikely, Boating accident- Probably.
Those little flags might be hard to see, but they are usually on top of big orange tubes that are easy to spot. Strange to see one of our own with such an attitude.
Chauggie

[SCRAPPY]

Thanks for the input.
I’ve tried using my scuba diving flag. The 12” x 12” on a fiberglass pole attached to a buoy and a weight, But it doesn’t work well for freediving especially we you get in close to the rocks. You literally have to climb on the rock to get it back. Which is also dangerous. The problem is that it sits to low in the water. I tried to modify a few but it didn’t work, and the high end spearfishing floats all come with that tiny flag. Modifying those doesn’t seem to be an option.

[johnspear23]

I use a red lifeguard torp with a 2 1/2 to 3ft fiberglass rod, 12" x 12" dive flag and a 2lb weight on the bottom to keep the flag upright. This has worked real good for me, if it gets too windy I just slide the flag down a little bit to keep it from rolling over. You could also add more weight to the bottom. The torp is very hydrodynamic so I hardly know it's there. A lot of guys use this setup in Hawaii. Since it is made of plastic it is also very durable.

John

[Sergio DaSilva]

Strange to see one of our own with such an attitude.
Chauggie

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not advocating diving without a flag. It's the macho bull that's offensive. Next of kin buy a new prop...what's that about?

FWIW, Last year I was very nearly run over twice. Both times well within the 50' dive flag zone. I still won't dive without a flag though.

[jackpine savage]

Well I have to say that here in Vineyard Sound and Buzzards Bay a lot of the weekend powerboaters are complete morons. I have seen some of them do absolutely idiotic things and I am always cautious when diving near areas people boat.

[scrounger]

when i hear the prop buzzing in the water i do check for boats and if they look like they are coming by the gun comes up. when they see the gun they know that i am not friendly and it helps me lots. i have had guys throw plugs at me while i was looking at them :mad: . i guess they are on to me knowing about the fish. anyway thetas why in RI you have to take boater safety class when your born after 1987 (I think) or for pwc, so any of our children will be safe. Eventually every one will learn what the flag means and to put it on float that can be seen by its self. It isn't worth $250 not to buy a big bright float.

[CTFreeDiver]

In this region of the country where each of us passes hundreds of pot marker buoys of all shapes, sizes, and colors, on any given day while engaged in diving from a boat we also see the creative attempts commercial fishers take to make their pot marker buoys unique from the rest of the bunch.

A torpedo float, available in different colors, that comes with a miniature dive flag which eventually bleaches all white and looks like nothing more that a small rag on the end of a pot marker buoy is useless in marking the location of divers. I have seen the owners of those floats still use them with no flag and expect the name written on the side to bring them some type of safety barrier. As a diver my vocabulary includes names like Sporasub and Cressisub. Joe Fisherman in his large Sea Ray with auto-pilot may only have a vocabulary that goes as far as Penn, Rapala, and Crown Royal. The point is if I am close enough to read the writing on the float then the float has failed to work as intended let alone its lack of a flag visible to a boat at cruising speed.

To touch on the subject Chauggie mentioned, I feel a diver will probably be run over by another diver. Many a time I have had other boats approach the clearly flagged boat I am operating with a diver(s) in the water and the first thing the other boat operator says is, “It’s all right, I’m a diver!”, and then I see them point in a direction where my diver is not. About that time my diver surfaces where the “self-proclaimed diver” was least expecting. Their words of apology for their oversight while on a newfound collision course with the boat I am operating has sent them in the other direction on all previous encounters.

A divers negligence to adequately mark their location not only endangers them self but, also endangers the crew of a boat whose operator may attempt evasive acts at the last moment to avoid collision. I operate several different boats and when the actions of another endanger the lives’ of my crew it is not received lightly. The damages or injuries resulting to all parties from a failure to simply mark ones location should bear fully upon the diver at fault. I expect all divers to be held accountable for their actions whether they live through the incident or not. The sea is far too dynamic and unforgiving for me to feel sympathy for a diver who, through gross negligence, marks their location no better than an indiscriminate piece of drift wood or a lobster pot.

If I ever feel the need to post a macho message, in which I feel it takes huevos grandes to do so, I will precede that message with a proper statement indicating my intent. This is not one of those times nor can I ever recall one.

As previously stated by several of you and myself; A dive flag seems to attract attention and is no guarantee of safety. What a state legal dive flag will do is ensure I do not run over said diver.

Dive Safe!

Mike

[PatMyGreen]

Down here in Florida if you are flying a dive flag you, in theory, own the water for 100 yards in every direction. Any vessell that comes inside of that has to slow to the minimum speed to maintain steering. The diver is obligated to try to remain inside of the same 300' of the flag or boat.
That said, all I have ever noticed a flag doing is attract people, "if they are diving, it must be a good spot" mentality. I surface gun first and make my displeasure known if the guy on my boat hasn't already done that. Many times I have had a boat between me and my boat once it was a commercial party boat that really should have known better. Moral of the story, it doesn't matter where you are or what the laws are, if you hear a boat, plan on it being piloted by the dumbest person you know or will soon know and look out for yourself.

[SCRAPPY]

The closest calls I’ve experienced came from guys checking their pots. When they see your float hanging out near their marker they don’t seem to care that my float is 60’ away from me and I’m nowhere near their pot. You can tell it’s intentional when they’re laughing and pointing.
But the coming up out of the water with your gun up thing, doesn’t seem like a grand idea. A few things to consider.

You’re in the water with fins.
They’re in a boat under power.
You have a spear gun with one shot and 20 feet of line.
They have shotguns!!!
You have a wife and kids.
They have a heroin addiction and nothing to lose.