Yamaha Engine

[Gradyman]

Hey everyone, Just got "the call" about my engine..doesn't look good, but I'll be calling for another opnion as well. In the meantime if you all could spred the word or send me any info concerning a low hours Yamaha 225 or 250, 99 to 2003 model I would really appriciate it...They tell me my lower unit is bad and that the drive shaft is "stuck" in the crank case...hence a $1800 job turns into a $4000 job according to the dealer. I did try with Maddog to get the lower unit off but it only seperates slightly and then won't budge. ANY help is appriciated...PM me or call

cell 386-295-3724
off 800-466-5933

Thanks,
Len

[Old Bateman]

Sounds like a problem I had with an Evinrude. Drive shaft spline was frozen in the crankshaft. I only had a little space between the head and the exhaust housing, so I ended up cutting the drive shaft with a hacksaw. Turned the head upside down, and soaked the spline for days with PB Blaster. Finally got it apart. Found the same motor with a blown head and Frankensteined them into a new motor.

[Goin'Deep]

Grady,

Old Bateman is exactly right. That's something similiar to how I had to get mine fixed. Give me a call before you do anything, as I have a guy that can do it for a LOT less.

[Gradyman]

Thanks guys...will do. They mentioned 16 hours labor...I think that included lunch and nap times or something? I'm just really frustrated over this...I kept that friggin thing spotless.

[kmoose]

Hmmmmmmm, getting things apart that are stuck is almost pleasure for me. I guess it all depends on how much stuff you are willing to tear up in the process. I believe you can remove the guts out of the lower unit through the hub entrance, although now you might tear up the water pump housing pulling the driveshaft through. Once you had access to the drive shaft a big slide hammer could be attatched possibly. A good point was brought up about inverting the motor to add a freeing lubricant. I think this may be the key and also isolate any damage to just the motor and not the boat along with it.
A lot can be said about the use of hydrolic jacks and chains. Pull rams can be rented and used to apply a mostly irresistable force to a chained down powerhead. Bleed or blister, something will happen..........what do you have to lose if you are considering scrapping the motor? I wish I lived closer.:D Good luck

[WreckDiver]

Hmmmmmmm, A lot can be said about the use of hydrolic jacks and chains. Pull rams can be rented and used to apply a mostly irresistable force to a chained down powerhead. Bleed or blister, something will happen..........what do you have to lose if you are considering scrapping the motor? I wish I lived closer.:D Good luck


Now that sounds like fun. :lol:

[Gradyman]

Thanks Moose...I think it would be a fun job to tackle with the right tools! They said they did gut the lower unit, but I haven't seen it yet...they mentioned something about taking apart the reverse gear and trying to free the shaft that way??? I've got the name of a guy who will "preform the operation" by cuttiing the lower unit & inverting the engine (thanks to Chase, spearboard member!!!). He's the first call in the morning so hopefully after talking to him I'll be on the hunt for a lower unit.

[filet&release]

Grady,

Sorry, its worse than expected.
I have a top notch Yamaha guy, Don Edmiston @ Chain of lakes
marine. It's in Sanford, Might be a little far for you. 407-330-0900.
He's worked on my boat for the past ten years. "truly honest" mechanic
only will fix whats wrong and has connections on used motors.

good luck !

Filet&release

[Freedro]

So your problem is that the upper end of the splined driveshaft is stuck in the lower end of the crankshaft, right? I just pulled out my Yamaha shop manual, and there is no way in hell that pulling anything from the prop-shaft end is going to do any good, because you've got a drive shaft housing which holds the drive shaft needle bearing bolted down on top of a flange on the driveshaft (not to mention a water pump impeller, cartridge, and housing bolted down on top of that). In other words, the only way to pull the driveshaft from the lower unit is to pull the lower unit from the powerhead first. If there is enough room to get in between the lower unit and the drive-shaft housing above, then the obviously least espensive and least damaging option would be to cut the drive shaft just as Old Bateman has suggested.

Was there a problem with the lower unit when you took the boat in, or were you just taking it in for service including a water pump?

[Gradyman]

Freedro...you hit the nail on the head and they ruined a great relationship with me...I'll never set foot in that place again. Went and got the boat yesterday...had to give up the $75 for thier seek and destroy manuver bull to get the boat off the lot. Should've had Moose and a few of you guys go with me.

Engine goes to the real 'doctor' on April 1st or so. The plan is the cut and inverse deal while keeping my fringers crossed in prayer that the crank shaft is not damaged. Labor for this job was quoted at $250 to $400 from Chase's man Bruce in Palatka. If all goes well I'll only need a lower unit.

I found a guy in Stuart named Gordon through MDSpear (Wade) and thanks to that he's checking on a low hour mint 99 225 Yamaha for around $3500. This is the backup plan...any input from you guys is well appriciated.

[Freedro]

Gradyman,

Did they trash the lower unit? I need just a lower unit case for a 225.

[Freedro]

One more question. Is this the same shop that did your last water pump job? If so, then they are responsible for not greasing the top of the driveshaft or using the proper grease. That's how I feel about it anyway. I've pulled my lower unit on my 225 four times, and I've never had a probelm getting it off. Getting that splined shaft to slip back in on re-installation is another thing altogether - now that takes some patience and talent.

[Grin]

After beating the hell out of my lower unit, on one of my 225 yams to get it off there. Which finally was a success. Same situation with the shaft stuck in the crank. I asked my Yam mechanic what the deal was, and he told me he never has issues with them. He said sometimes they fire the engine up with the bolts all out to get it to drop. It sounds like a actual good idea and like it would probably work, but possibly could be dangerous as hell also. Maybe put longer bolts in so when it drops it doesn't spin is what I was thinking. Don't say I told you to do it! I'm just saying what they told me. Mine slowly dropped as I beat the living hell out of it and used wedges. There were more than a few decent lower units on EBAY. I thought I might need one, but saved it. If the unit is bad then cutting it appart and using a slide hammer to get the shaft out of the crank might be a idea. Sounds like alot of work though!

[Ironhed]

If you need any extra help call me I will come out even if it is to get the cold beers palatka isn't that far for me to go.

[Gradyman]

Freedro - I don't think they ruined it, but there was a descent amount of metal shars bouncing around in there. The dealer in Edgewater were the last to do the work on it in Aug of 04 and when I brought it up to the little piss ant helper behind the desk he told me it should've be done every year and that I was six months late in doing that...so he felt they were off the hook...at that point it was all I could do to turn my back and not give him a right hook to the jaw. It still pisses me off, but I keep letting it go and forgiving so that I don't loose sleep...I know he ain't loosing any. Besides there is a much bigger guy looking out for me and I just got to believe that I've got better things ahead. Anyway, enough of that...Freedro if you want to come by and look at the housing your welcome to...I don't know if photos would tell enough of the story.

Grin I may get antsy waiting for April to roll around and try that idea...would that further damage things if the splins are out of sync on the shafts?...the last thing I want to do is cause more damage becuase of impatience. The guy I'm taking it to wanted to try a few things before he cuts, so I think I'll leave it up to him...he's done 4 or 5 just like this in the past few years.

[Spearchucker]

That is absolute garbage that you have to replace water pumps annually. If its a flats boat, yes, but an offshore boat? HELL NO! Any REPUTABLE mechanic will tell you the same.

[Gradyman]

I'll never go back to the former G&G marine in Edgwater FL, used to be a great place to do business...now it's called "Play Two Marine" and it seems they play to your wallet...I called the owner and left a message about the poor customer relations and the backstepping around the last maintence job effects...he hasn't called back to say anything...

I wouldn't have minded paying something if I had gotten something...all I got was "yea it's stuck" and then to top it off the price for the lower unit on the phone was $1500...when the situation was explained to me in person the part cost $2300...I should have asked him if he was even gonna kiss me while I was being...

[maddog]

Lenny, sorry to hear the crappy news. I'm in W. Va. on a snow boarding vacation.
Was hoping to catch a ride on that sweet machine when I got back.
If damaging the lower unit was just considered collateral damage I"m sure we could have removed that thing three weeks ago at your house. Sorry I suggested to let the "professionals" take on the job!
I"ll be back in town this saturday, call me if you want to have a hand in destroying your own lower unit, Who knows that thing might be saveable still!

[Puncture Wound]

Grady, when you see Ditto, ask to see his gators, he has a couple over 12feet, he killed a hoss 2years ago that went over 13ft

[Gradyman]

I will definitly ask him Chase...Bruce is a great guy, I can't wait to see him work his magic on it. Hopefully the crank shaft is not damaged.

Carl, I WILL be, God willing too, forgetting about my troubles this coming weekend 24-26 and shooting it up on the middle grounds with JRII...and El Slayador is it? Anyway, by the time things settle down the following week I'll be running it over to Palatka for some special treatment. I'll call you.

[Spearchucker]

It is "El Slingador" ;)

[JBY]

Gradyman:

1st you have other possible problems besides a stuck drive shaft. Yamaha has a lower crank seal built into the lower bearing retainer on the powerhead, so if your drive shaft splines are truley rusted into your crank shaft then the lower seal on the bearing retainer has failed. Most of the time when the seal has failed, it is because the lower bearing has failed. (Motor could still run fine) If this is the case removing the lower unit and instaling a new one will still leave you with problems.

The other possibility of a stuck gear case is a bushing in the lower part of the mid-section designed to control drive shaft flex. These often cause this problem. Usually the beat and wedge method works to remove it if this is the case. Dont be afraid to get rough with the gear case or mid-section, as a little bit of welding can repair that type of damage, once the unit is apart.

You say that your gear case is bad, is that because it is performing improperly or because you think you are going to have to cut your drive shaft?? If your gear case was working properly, then I would avoid cutting until the absolute last resort. You will be cutting the drive shaft of a perfectly good gear case. You will have a much harder time grabbing the drive shaft after cutting it. The upper bearing retainer in the gear case does an excellent job holding the drive shaft in so leveraging between the mid-section and gear case is usually the best coarse of action. If it is the formentioned bushing that is causing the problem, then the gear case will be hard to move for 3-4 inches then it will free up and come most of the way out until the drive shaft spineles try to come thru the bushing, as the drive shaft is smaller in diameter in the middle of the shaft.

While some motors do require an annual impeller replacement, your particular motor isnt necessarly one. If you read your manual, it probably states to replace your impeller every 100 hours or annually, but I have found in the past that Yamaha impellers for the v4 / v6 tend to hold much longer. I have seem them go well in excess of 350 hours. If you let your boat sit you should change them every other year.

For OLDER (early 90's) Johnson and Evenrude where the drive shaft seal is an "O" ring on the drive shaft, these should be replaced EVERY YEAR!!!!

Mercury 2.0L and 2.5L should be done every year as well becuase of the weakness of their pumps.


Gradyman, Give me a call if you have anymore questions.

Jason
JBY Outboard
(727)639-6565.

[Gradyman]

Will do Jason...I'll call you so I can describe what happened to you as things occured that day...they did beat the hell out of it at the dealer and Carl and I gave it some good shots and tugs before I sent it there. The reason I said the gear case is shot is bc that's what the dealer told me...anyway...I'll call you Monday.

Hey maybe you could part with one of the engines in your avatar :D

Thanks!

Spearchucker...I didn't think it was Slayador, but couldn't remember, thanks...hopefully he'll show up next weekend!

[inletsurf]

Yes, it is El Slingador, and my Mexican wrestling stage name is El Shartador.

[Ironhed]

Hey maybe you could part with one of the engines in your avatar :D


make sure you get the middle engine or we will be going in circles right :D

[Sherpa]

I'd be willing to bet that if you have the time, tools, and skils to remove your motor,
and invert it while still complete, you have a chance at it.... since the shaft is stuck
in the end of the crank, the ONLY thing holding it up would be rust.... unless somehow
the splines were twisted........ do you remember hitting anything in the recent past
hard enough to stop the prop-?

even before removing the engine from the boat, I'd try the start-it with the lower unit
bolts removed trick..... little bit of massaging from a dead-blow hammer while running.
obviously the prop should be removed prior to any of this... unless you like making sushi
out of your own feet...

so, pull the prop, remove the lower unit bolts, massage nice, but firmly with a dead blow..............

if no worky, then pull the motor, invert it, and if your motor has a water-pump flush
port, use a can (or 2) of pb blaster into that port........ hopefully some of the PB will
weep down the drive-shaft to the crank........ even if it doesn's make it to the crank,
you're only out whatever the PB costs you... it shouldn't eat any rubber parts.... infact
they claim it keep seals soft.......... it shouldn't eat paint either.....

if you were closer, I'd lend a hand.. I like tackling jobs like this..........

--Sherpa

[Gradyman]

Thanks for the input guys, I have limited tools and some knowledge...I didn't hit anything hard enough to stop the prop recently...caught an tag line rope a while back which made it stall, but that was a number of trips ago. I'm going to try some wedges and a hammer...props already off, but I get a bad feeling about the starting it while loose thing...I'm afraid I may damage the splins of the crank shaft just in case they are still OK.

[Grin]

I put 1100 hours on a set of Yamaha 200s before changing the impellers. The mechanic said they looked fine. Since then I never worry about impellers until a minimum of 300 hours, more like 500 hours. Those 200 yams had a total of three sets of impellers in 2400 hours and ran beautiful when I sold them. The real failure issue on Yam lower units is the shaft seal under the water pump. I've replaced a couple of those after seeing milky lower unit lube. The real thing to watch for is your gear lube color. Changing the lube is almost only to see what color it is. These days I do change the gear lube about every 100-150 hours. But more importantly, before Bahamas trips etc,,, I always pop the drain screw out and inspect the color of the lube, not neccessarily worried about changing it, as I am making sure it is not contaminated with water. The water pump is basically bullitproof on the new yams(like newer than 1990).

[Gradyman]

Thanks Grin, it's been a great engine until this point. I'm gonna try drilling a hole in the lower unit and inserting a steel shaft through it to gain some leverage in getting it off. At this point I've been told the lower unit isn't worth any core charge refund. I relly think it's upper bearings that are holding it in, if I'm understanding everyone correctly??? I doubt it's a splin problem being that it's stainless and was serviced 16 months ago...what maybe 200hours ago.

[Gradyman]

Great news everyone...Chase (spearboard mem Puncture Wound) recommended Bruce Ditto at Ditto Marine in Palatka...the guys amazing. He had the lower unit removed in 2 hours without damaging the crankshaft as the dealer "feared". He's doing the yearly maintenance as well as adjusting some other small issues he found & said I can look forward to having a 'new' engine back...total bill for him is going to be about $650 or so and that includes extra parts that ran about $250 of that. I found a lower unit from a dealer on Ebay...brand new for $1800 including shipping...over all I'm really happy to have been able to avoid buying a new engine...he said the power head looked great...I'm attributing that to synthetic oil I've used since getting the engine in '99. Thanks for the help!

I will be picking it up on Tuesday!
Len

[WreckHunter]

Congrats Len, I know how happy you will be to get yout baby back together again.