Disposable powerheads

[FredT]

This is a heads up and request for info.

Last Thursday out of Gulf Shores I had a close encouneter of the Hector kind with a 8-10 ft bull. By the second time he bumped me I was regretting not having a disposable with me. By the third and fourth pass I ended up being right annoyed.

The scene was where the shark had been following the divers just out of our vis (roughly 6') waiting for me to take a shot. Less than 10 seconds after I shot an AJ I had a "friend" with an attitude. Eventually all 4 divers and the AJ made it aboard the Deeper Peeper without serious injury. Regretably the shark didn't, mostly due to lack of armament. That boy obviously has associated divers with lunch. It's time for him to become jerkey before he hurts someone!

Solution for future trips:

I intend to put together a minimal diameter hermetically sealed "slip on" tip suitable for this size critter for immediate deployment on a cocked gun. In order to have a suitable power/diameter ratio I'm thinking of using a .30 carbine round (rimmless, heavy case wall) with a bit of extra Unique or 700X in it. A "factory" .30 carbine will be similar to the power of a .223, but in a smaller diameter package. I'd like to hold the OD of the tip to 1/2" or 5/8" for best accuracy. Firing pin will be the shaft tip so it'll be safe to carry loaded for the long term.


I'll probably have a CNC shop whip up a bunch, since it's almost the same expense to get 50 as it is 5. Also I expect to need a few by July 12, and I won't have time to get into the shop to do any serious machine work before then.

What I need to know, is anybody interested in this, and if so what tip or pointed shaft diameter do you use?

FT

[WreckDiver]

I would be interested, 6mm w/ ---- 5/16th threads permenant point. Spearone supplied with gun, what do you figure the cost will run?

[fernandezh]

FredT,
Are you still planning on a trip out of the Deeper Peeper for 12 July? My weekend is still open, & let me know. I'll bring out the powerheads and we'll compare.

Hector

[kitefisherman]

Fred:

When I was out on the Jolly Rogers Memorial Day trip, I met John Riddick who used to own the Tavernier Dive Center - I don't know if you know him. In any event, John had these sealed powerheards in different calibers. The powerheads were sealed in some sort of colored (by caliber) hard synthetic/plastic? material and were very reliable. John told me that he got them a few years back from a supplier in West Palm Beach called Blue Water Tackle and that they were about 50 cents each (probably at wholesae). He asked me to see if I could find the supplier so that he (and I) could get more. I did an internet and Secretary of State search, but could not find a Blue Water Tackle in the WPB area. I know that you have been around this area a long time. Are you familiar with this vendor? I am diving on the JR2 4th of July trip and will try to take photos of John's powerheads and post them here if that will help.

I am interested in obtaining some sealed powerheads and would be willing to split costs, etc. I shoot a SS stinger single barb lineshaft with a 5/16" threaded point and a Riffe 5/16" hawaiiian shaft.

As I understand it, the main factor in the reliability of slip ons is how far the point of the spear inserts into the slip in so as to keep the speartip centered on the primer.

Please PM me if you are interested in moving forward on this project. Thanks.

[Stone]

Fred,

Subdude (on this forum) posted some pictures of a homemade slip-on PH (halfway down This Page (http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1046&perpage=15&pagenumber=3)). In a case of form following function, we used half inch ID PVC because it slipped nicely over the two barb JBL speartips we use. 45 caliber was the ammo of choice because it fit the half inch ID PVC with just a wrap of electrical tape or a little heat-shrink tubing prior to sealing with paraffin.

[junior]

Check out Ray Odor's slip-on powerheads. It's reusable and a nice little unit. I bought a .223 for maybe $30

[FredT]

He went out of business several years ago. It's a long sad story that involves government meddeling and youngsters gone bad. doesn't need to be repeated. At any rate he developed these with an aluminum body and brass base that work quite well. I'm down to 2 of them in 9mm and need to get a few more. Hence the redesign effort. I expect the cost to be above a $ and under $5 in smallish quantites. I won't be sure until the design is done and the bids come in. In bulk we could probably get the cost down to under a $, but I don't need 10K of them.

FT

Originally posted by kitefisherman
Fred:

When I was out on the Jolly Rogers Memorial Day trip, I met John Riddick who used to own the Tavernier Dive Center - I don't know if you know him. In any event, John had these sealed powerheards in different calibers. The powerheads were sealed in some sort of colored (by caliber) hard synthetic/plastic? material and were very reliable. John told me that he got them a few years back from a supplier in West Palm Beach called Blue Water Tackle and that they were about 50 cents each (probably at wholesae). He asked me to see if I could find the supplier so that he (and I) could get more. I did an internet and Secretary of State search, but could not find a Blue Water Tackle in the WPB area. I know that you have been around this area a long time. Are you familiar with this vendor? I am diving on the JR2 4th of July trip and will try to take photos of John's powerheads and post them here if that will help.

I am interested in obtaining some sealed powerheads and would be willing to split costs, etc. I shoot a SS stinger single barb lineshaft with a 5/16" threaded point and a Riffe 5/16" hawaiiian shaft.

As I understand it, the main factor in the reliability of slip ons is how far the point of the spear inserts into the slip in so as to keep the speartip centered on the primer.

Please PM me if you are interested in moving forward on this project. Thanks.

[joens]

Definately interested in several 5-10 or more depending on the price. I usually use Spearfishing specialties T224 Gulf slip tip http://www.slinginsteel.com/tips.html#slip
Joens

[Screen Name]

Count me in for $50 worth, however far that gets me. Let me know if you get serious.

[dabulltrouble]

if they work put me down for 50$ worth to

[Spearchucker]

Me too, but they have to work at least 80-90% of the time.

[Charlestondivin]

Ditto $50 worth. ss single flopper shaft.

[Johnoly]

I'll take $50 worth also. I've got Sea Hornet shafts with twin 5" spread barb's and the tip is a 5/16"-24 threaded rock point

[mushkee]

i'll take a bunch too...waiting to see the final price...

i use a rob allen 7mm hawaiiian shaft...it has a tricut point..

[Grande]

i will buy some, 5/16 threaded.

[FredT]

Looks like enough demand for a decent single run. Ill talk to the shop this afternoon for a guesstimate on the $s each in lots over 200.

FT

[FredT]

Johnoly is honcho on that run. I don't have all the boat data or slots available final tally yet, but I think it's close to full if all who'v'e spoken up throw $s in the pot. One or more may be available, so be sure to throw your name in early!

Another run on the Peeper after the 12th is in order, but I don't have one scheduled yet

Originally posted by fernandezh
FredT,
Are you still planning on a trip out of the Deeper Peeper for 12 July? My weekend is still open, & let me know. I'll bring out the powerheads and we'll compare.

Hector

[TheDecoStop]

Count me in for a few. 6.5mm on a Rob Allen

[Fishkabobs]

I'll take some too. SS 5/16 threads....double barb. I'll do 50$ if they work when hector shows up!

[fernandezh]

Originally posted by FredT
Johnoly is honcho on that run. I don't have all the boat data or slots available final tally yet, but I think it's close to full if all who'v'e spoken up throw $s in the pot. One or more may be available, so be sure to throw your name in early!

Another run on the Peeper after the 12th is in order, but I don't have one scheduled yet

You are going to be there for the 12th/13th?

Hector

[Screen Name]

Fred. It may be interesting to evaluate Hector's powerhead. I undestand its a machine..............designed by a well known expert in the field :D (in the water too).

[FredT]

I have a couple dozen of the .30 carbine chamber ends on order. The lathe run time will determine the $s necessry for the main run. This will also give me a chance to bust a few caps in them and see if I can thin out the body any more. Current maximum diameter is 9/16". I may see them early next week in time to get the trial shots done over the 4th weekend.

Now comes the hard part. The tip interface is a separate piece bonded into the chamber end that needs to be matched to the tip used. I have 5/16" diameter tips and flopper shafts in various incarnations, and those have all been incorporated into the design. I also have the 3/8" JBL #823 detatch tip I use as a workhorse and the 3/8"OD JBL slip toggle tips (#873,874, and 875) in 3 lengths. Interfaces for all those, plus the center support for the slip toggle are in the design works.

If anyone needs any other tip interfaces I can get those done at the same time. I may need to have one of your tips here in hand to match it for best reliablility.

FT

[FredT]

Originally posted by fernandezh
You are going to be there for the 12th/13th?

Hector

yep. The 12th boat is full based on the e-mail I got from johnoly. If we have a cancellation you may want to get on the waiting list.

The 13th is day one of the '03 Panama City Diverlink trip. I'm diving with that bunch the 13th through the17th. They are a fun bunch overall, but don't hunt much. I'll be bringing the gun in case something wants to commit suicide. Cobia and AJs are known to cruise the area this time of year.

:rolleyes:

FT

[Steel Shootin']

I would definitely take some. Put me down for $50.

Hey Fred, I PMd you about ordering another back plate. Never got a reply. Are you still making them? :confused:

[FredT]

e-mail with current info incoming!

FT

[ReefRon]

I'd be interested in a few of these powerheads, too. I use a 5/16" shaft on my JBL.
Thanks,
Ron

[BobK]

I'd be interested in $50 worth, also. Use a SS gun with lineshaft.

[royalarch]

what is the general consensus on the .44 magnum powerhead produced by abbiller? Are .44 magnum bullets reliable.:confused:

[FredT]

Originally posted by royalarch
Are .44 magnum bullets reliable.:confused:

.44 mags are as reliable as any other ammo in powerheads that get wet. The advantage of these disposable ones is that the ammo actually stays completely dry in a sealed metal chamber until fired. This allows it to be carried as a "just-in-case" tool over muiltiple dives, yet be instantly available if needed.

[fernandezh]

Originally posted by royalarch
what is the general consensus on the .44 magnum powerhead produced by abbiller? Are .44 magnum bullets reliable.:confused:

They worked for Dirty Harry :D

[FredT]

.30 carbine/ 9/16" max OD x a bit over 2" long. First prototypes should be here today.

FT

[Screen Name]

Are you sure those colors wont scare the fish?

[FredT]

Originally posted by Screen Name
Are you sure those colors wont scare the fish?

Red anodizing looks black or clear at depth, depending on the dye. Polished Al clearcoat anodizing is another possibility to simply reflect whatever water color is about. Black won't show up on the model, but is a real possibility. A good chunk of the chamber part cost is the anodizing, but for long term repeated immersion the anodizing is necessary.

The tip adaptor on the left is brass, but tarnished brass isn't a primary color in Pro-E. Rubbing it with cream of tartar after assembly should effectivly blacken it, as will several other concoctions, but that has to be done after loading.

BTW 10 prototypes are in hand. If I can find clear enough water after the flooding I'll test a few this weekend for angle impact and hard object detonation.

FT

[Screen Name]

I was really worried about that color.:D Actually, the brighter the better........easier to find!

I'm getting a little excited about this venture, it sounds pretty trick. I'd like to rework my order to be more like 3 units or $75, whichever comes first.

[FredT]

3 units won't even make a dent in $75.

I still haven't gotten soild pricing info, but we are talking in the neighborhood of $10 or less each, probably way less. I should have much better pricing data by Tuesday or wednesday next week. I intend to turn on a significant run of chambers early next week too.

Remember these are one time use units. They have to be inexpensive or I screwed the design pooch!

FT

[FredT]

I set up a single head with a US army issue .30 carbine military ball cartridge.

The purpose of the test was to confirm action and failure mode if the fish is missed and the head impacts a hard body like a wreck hull. Failure would be a significant rebound of the shaft, general self destruction of the head resulting in schrapnel that travels over about 3', or ignition failure. Secondary information on gas generation and projectile performance was also desired

Test target setup: 2 sheets of 1/2" plywood separated by 1.5" of water filled space, impact angle 90° ± 5°

Gun: JBL/Bandito hybrid similar to a sawed off magnum with 5/16" tricut tip. 2 ea 5/8" bands loaded.

Range to target : 8'

Results:

1. Projectile penetrated both plywood sheets, traveling another 10' before settling on the bottom.

2. Excess gas pressure due to the plywood occluded barrel vented radially through the designed in weak blowout point in the head just aft of the muzzle as planned. The overpressure fractured the head blowout section into 5 roughly equal pieces, Maximium travel of these pieces in the water appeared to be about 5" before falling to the bottom.

3. Shaft rebound was less than 6".


Next actions:

The CNC shop is cutting an additional 50 heads, and making 30 tip adapting breech plugs for both 5/16" diameter shafts and tips and 3/8" body tips. These two adaptors will fit most of the medium to heavy duty tips made by JBL, Biller, SS, Riffe and Ultimate.

Having proved the design safety with a "worst case" test it's time to get these out in Seawater to do some "on meat" beta testing.

The parts are going to be ready sometime early Friday. I'm going to be in Panama City from Friday night through early next week doing a bunch of diving, and intend to so a fair amout of on meat testing. If there is anyone else who wants to test a few (and hopefully is willing to help pay for the parts.) and can meet me in PC I'll set you up with a few. Alternately I can ship a few unloaded parts to those who can do testing before July 21st. Due to UPS and USPS rules I can't ship small quatities of ammuniton or loaded powerheads, so those who can't pick them up in PC will have to get ammunition locally. I expect to turn on a production run the week of the 22nd, so test results need to be back to me before then. Pricing data should be firmed up at the end fo this prototype order. Right now it looks like it's going to be in the the $5-$7 ballpark after we simplified the machining operations a bit.

BTW it looks like a hollow point projectile can be used with this head design. I expect to load a few rounds with a 110 gr. Speer Varminter to try it out. The HP on meat should make for some interesting results.

FT

[DanR]

This may be a stupid question, but how much noise do you hear with these underwater. Just curious.

[SpearDiverTampa]

I will take 4 of them whenever they become available.
-Chris

[kitefisherman]

Fred: I don't know if it will be of any help to you at this stage of the design process, but here's a couple photos of the disposable powerheads that were made 10 years ago by Bluewater Tackle. The visible ports were only cut on one side although I don't know why.

[kitefisherman]

Another angle. Please keep me advised as things develop.

[FredT]

That one appears to be a .38 special loaded with a .357 round.

9mm were black, .38s were "gold", .357s were yellow, 444marlins were black (and WAY huge), and there were a few other chamberings in the line's prototypes.

These were color coded by caliber during the anodizing process.
The brass base on those was sized for the 5/16" diameter tip made by Ultimate

The slot is necessary for the head to function at all.

The one's I'm building are smaller in diameter, about 1/4" longer, and will be a bit lighter in the water since they are chambered for a smaller diameter (but similar power in a factory load) round. Power in a "wildcat" round specifically loaded for this head should be up to about 3X the punch of a .357 factory load, but putting one of those in a carbine could cause you to "eat the bolt."

FT

[Steel Shootin']

Fred, I am sending my address to you via PM. Just let me know what I owe you for parts. I also have a follow-up on that backplate.

Scott

[FredT]

Parts are enroute.
PM me with your phone number when you get them tomorrow for detailed assembly instructons.

I'll have the remaining 44 in PC if anyone else is going to be in the neighborhood.

fT

[Steel Shootin']

Fred: I have the powerheads here, as well a the ammo and epoxy. You can call with the assembly instructions at the phone number I PMd. Standing by...

[Steel Shootin']

I spoke with Fred today, and I assembled 15 of these bad boys. I will post detailed photos of the powerhead, assembly shots, and meat results on Sunday.

[Johnoly]

I've been diving with FredT for the last 3 days. I had the opportunity to test a couple of the new powerheads, and they are truly sweet

I'm not an engineer and I'll let FredT answer all the questions. All I can say is that they did exactly what they were designed to do. FredT is always thinking and he's a great hunter and an awesome designer in fixing problems and making a better design.

I'll let him answer any questions, but you guys won't be disappointed, it works great and it's friggin loud !!

Oh yea, some fish got shafted also!! Here's Saturday's boat trip.

Johnoly

http://www.scubadiving.com/members/memberimages/4739_3801_2.jpg

[Steel Shootin']

I have been swamped so I have not got around to posting photos, etc., but I will try to get to it tonight. Yes, they are awesome. On the Mexican Pride, my buddy shot a jewfish and it killed it. The jewfish was attacking his stringer and posed a risk to the safety of buddy, so he was justified to defend himself. It killed the jewfish, and they were all bigguns.

[dabulltrouble]

so when and where can we buy some of these bad boys.

[Financial Advis]

These are VERY nice disposable powerheads. The speed in which you can load them is astounding. Not very viable for commercial shooting just from cost point but a very useful hebrew mullet and shark shooter. On one note though after firing you gotta knock it off shaft with knife cause it gets stuck on their tight. It seemed to be very effective even though it is a tiny round. :)

[Ticket2ride21]

HOW MUCH?!

[FredT]

and I had a couple thoughts to machining sequencing that may make a difference in $s on the downward direction side.

As a result final costing is not in yet. I HOPE to get there by the end of next week.

Right now I have a few beta test prototypes left that are NOT anodized available at $10 each. I need to know your shaft tip configuration to get you the correct breech/tip adaptor. Once assembled these will need to be rinsed/waxed/painted/etc. to slow down the aluminum corrosion after they are assembled. If you want the betas send me an e-mail with what you want, where to ship them, and how you intend to pay for them. I do either credit cards via paypal to ftagge@goldinc.com or you can snail mail a check. I'll send info on how to figure freight. Unloaded heads are about 1 ounce each, plus about a pound in packaging.

I expect to do a production run of about 500 in a couple weeks once we get the machining process settled in and a solid production cost. Those should be available in about a month unless I hit another snag.

FT

[Screen Name]

I'll get a batch of the finished ones once they are ready. Does Hardcoat anodize provide extra corrosion protection? I know it costs a little more each.

[FredT]

the unanodized ones I've been playing with are still good to go after 13 dives, but amy only be good for another 20 or so.

Anodized ones are sealed from saltwater, so popcorn corrosion has no place to start.

Anodizing will probably increase the cost by about $2 each though.

[Screen Name]

If possible I would like to get mine hardcoat anodized........if its only 2 bucks that is cheap in my opinion. If its a nuisance, I can just work on getting mine done locally. We can pin this down once we get a little closer to completion.

[Stodelle]

Nice job on the design, and it sounds like testing is going great. I would like to order some, probably the standard $50 worth. If you get a final $$$ amount, let me know. You can PM and email me at seanstodelle@hotmail.com it's always on!

[bginn]

Well I got $50.00 to spend on powerheads.
send me a email so i can send u the money.
bginn@email.com

[Nsearch]

Count me in as well for a batch for $50

chesthighandglassy@yahoo.com

[FredT]

I'm supposed to have a meeting later this morning with the machine shop owner. With any luck I'll have answers to the when and how much questions VERY soon.

BTW number of available prototype units is down to 7.

FT

[FredT]

I talked to the machine shop quite a while today. Production parts are going to be about $12 each, when they will be available depends on when I can come up the $3.6K to fund the run of 300. I'm negotiating with my "finance officer" to see when that will be. Getting many fewer doesn't cut the bottom line for the order much, so 300 is the "sweet spot" as far a quantity goes.

Alternately I may be able to route them through another type of shop for a bit less each, but the first run $s double....


Assembly instructions for the production model.

Insert a round into the chamber. Place 3-5 drops of Loctite 272 or 277 on the primer and spread it evenly over and around the cartridge base lightly on the ID of the breach socket. The Loctite should _JUST_ cover the primer and fill the annular around the cartridge base. Put a THIN coating of Loctite on both the brass OD and socket ID. The tolerances of the production parts have been adjusted to allow enough clearance between the brass and the aluminum to let air & excess Loctite escape, while keeping the annular within the thickness Loctite needs to cure. Press the brass part in to get the diaphragm as close to in contact with the primer as you can and hold it into position for a couple minutes to let as much air as possible to escape. The thicker the Loctite film between the brass and the primer the more force it takes to touch the cartridge off. Let the unit set overnight to fully cure and you're good to go.


If your gun's acceleration fully loaded causes the thing to predetonate (something I haven't had happen yet but always a possibility with heavily banded guns) add a few grains of sand on the shell base as a spacer before inserting the brass breech to thicken the Locktite diaphram.

FT

[bubba]

i'd be in for about 50 bucks. concept sounds great. drop me a line when youre ready.

bubba

[Johnoly]

I'm still in for $100. Or if that is 8 of them at $12, that's $96.

Just to get a firm total from everyone, you should set up a paypal account, but don't confirm the payment until you have enough orders.

Also to keep this thread from getting lost, you might want to start a new thread.

Tell me where to send the money, I'm sold on them!!

Johnoly

[BobK]

Fred,
Guess I'll take 5 of them whenever you have them available. Let me know where/when to send the cash.

[zeN||]

If they are as reliable asthey sound I'm game:) zeN

[WreckDiver]

Any updates on availability? and Pricing.

[FredT]

Posted here:

http://www.spearboard.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=36236#post36236

FT

[Vandolin]

FredT
You now have my order and payment. Thanks.

[pcscuba]

I realize this a probably a stupid question but does this power head just slip over an existing two wing tip and if so does the spear shaft diameter really matter. For example I have a 9/32" shaft with 6mm threaded end. Could I use one of these powerheads?

[FredT]

Freeshafts generally hav eht tip and shaft integral. ie. the point is ground on the end of the shaft, with a thread superimposed nthe tip.

Most shafts that have a 6mm thread then get a tip of either 3/8 or 5/16" diameter. The powerhead has to match the tip diameter.

FT

[grouper567]

hey guys
check out my post on general spearing fishing
ea

[joens]

Originally posted by grouper567
hey guys
check out my post on general spearing fishing
ea
I assume you are referring to the homemade powerheads.I think I will take my chances with the fredt model .