"The Wreck of the Ande... a tech spearfishing experiment - minimum vs maximum gear."

[Chad Carney]

Saturday Tony G and I splashed on the Ande in 200 fsw with great vis and a ripping current. Although I went diving with him before, he and I traded off driving the boat last time, so this was my first time to see him in the water. It's quite a sight to see!

I ascribe to Nissan's philosophy, "Everything you need - nothing you don't."

My minimal tech dive system: Zeagle Stiletto, HP120 & H-valve, pair of Flathead XPs, 30 deco-pony & Envoy Deluxe, hoseless Uwatec AI computer & back up on a psig. 7/5 1-piece wetsuit & beanie, (heard there might be an upwelling.) SMG & rolled up flag.
Gun: Single band 55" Wong w/3 freeshafts and a Quiver light holder, hoop stringer.

SpearMax is the poster boy for "More is better!"

Gearmaximus tech dive system: Diverite dual bladder, dual inflator, tech wing BC. LP120 & H-valve, Scubapro primary, USD Micra secondary, pony with Micra, deco bottle with XYZ-reg, tank mounted video deck box with mask mounted camera, shark shield, back up light, Cochran hoseless computer, back up computer & psig, a couple dozen brass and SS clips, 10' tube float, large reel, back up smg, waterproof cannister containing VHF & GPS, DUI drysuit, full hood. (I'm sure I'm missed parts of it.) Oh yeah, an Apollo scooter to drag it all around!
Gun: 4 band Riffe, with reel, slip tip, quiver with side spear & light, side mounted polespear, 3 or 4 fish tube floats, hoop stringer.

The wreck was awesome but unfortunately this time it was devoid of fish other than giant parrots and many south-east coast much derided "reef donkeys." These AJs were huge and parked on the wreck like cudas weathervaining in the current... easy picking, but we both passed on them.

So the tech spearfishing experiment was a bust! Zero vs Zero fish!

After that for the 130 fsw reef drift dive I stripped down to a single HP 100, no H-valve, and ditched the beanie, as the water was in the low to mid 70s.

Tony G always dives the same system, regardless of depth or conditions. But did use a LP 98 I think.

It was very un-fishy yesterday... and I finally couldn't take the huge schools of kings cruising by so I blazed this 19 pounder with a freeshaft, then pinned him before needing a second shaft. (The exit hole is shown, (duh), the entrance was farther back along the lateral line but not quite a stone.)

Kevin Eaves(?) got a king too, and a real nice WPB hogfish.

More technical data later, after I download my computer.

Thanks for the great dives Tony!

Chad

[SpearMax]

Good job free shafting that kingfish Chad! :thumps:

On the east coast of FL we do things differently than you west coasters.

For example:

Not many of us free shaft. Our currents are too strong. Some of our areas have deep holes that freeshafted fish can dissappear into. I would not risk losing too many shafts on the big cobias and groupers I go after. Of course, Kingfish are tricky to freeshaft unless one is an expert like you. Great shot and catch!

So line vs. free shafting is a personal preference. I have some good friends that sometimes free-shaft over here. But, there is no great advantage in it over here in my opinion when you consider all the conditions we usually deal with. I also know guys that tried it over here and went back to line shafting. When I dove on the west coast with very little current and pretty even bottom in all directions, I certainly can see the merits of freeshafting over there.

I am a solo technical diver, so I believe in redundancy in several areas. I usually do my deep technical spearfishing dives of 200 to 230 with me, myself and I. No buddies. :eek: Therefore, I carry a 19 cube air pony for emergencies, while you have no back-up air supply. Often, even when I go down with another tech diving buddy they seem to disappear even if we agreed to meet at a certain place after a certain time. Hint, hint. Of course I have it all on video with an exact time code to prove it. ;)

Tech diving philosophies can be different and I never question anyone else's approach. I do what works best for me and do not care what anyone thinks about my approach to my personal life safety. e.g. Taking a redundant air supply is my choice. Especially since I am not diving one of the two sets of doubles that I own. Multi-tasking in deep water comes very naturally for me, but it is definitely not everyone's cup of tea. There is an old saying: "In the long run...we are all dead." I do not want to accelerate that truth with my tech diving approach.

On the east coast, we have reel systems with three or more Rob Allen torpedo floats to deal with ripping ass currents. That also mandates having back up reels in case we lose the floats like what happened on our second dive. That is why I carry a submersible VHF radio and GPS in a 400 foot rated canister. It saved me and my buddy just the last weekend when our driver lost sight of the float balls. Very useful system. :cool:

I also own a film & video production company and video tape every one of my dives as you know. That special camera system costs over $6,000 and requires me to balance out my gear for maximum efficiency traveling through the water. You have to admit you were impressed with that scooter system that acts like a steady-cam platform under water. That is how I get the super smooth shots instead of herky-jerky footage caused by kicking. Many tech divers like Dago use scooter systems for deep work. I have the added benefit of superior video camera performance. :D

The Ande dive was great. With my tech diving system, I was able to circumnavigate that wreck three times on that dive in 15 minutes while video taping the entire dive. If there had been any spearable fish hiding in the corners of that wreck, my shaft would probably have drawn blood while Chad was on the top of the wreck hanging on in the ripping current. Maybe, maybe not. Oh well...Sometimes maximum gear pays off! :D

The summers are definitely not as fishy everywhere on the east coast. That is the luck of the draw. Here are a few images from the dive.

[dagodiver]

Nice report Chad and Tony.!

Dago.

[SpearMax]

Nice report Chad and Tony.!

Dago.

Hey Dago!

Chad is going to certify me in Trimix. I have some deeper wrecks over here I want to do in the 250 to 300 foot range. My Appollo scooter would probably implode on these dives. I have taken it to 230 with no problem, but I was wondering what you recommend on the deep scooter front. I see you post on scooter subjects often.

Thanks, Tony

[dagodiver]

Hey Dago!

Chad is going to certify me in Trimix. I have some deeper wrecks over here I want to do in the 250 to 300 foot range. My Appollo scooter would probably implode on these dives. I have taken it to 230 with no problem, but I was wondering what you recommend on the deep scooter front. I see you post on scooter subjects often.

Thanks, Tony



Tony,
Because of the style of diving you do I would recomend the X-Scooter from Dive X-tras. They are the smallest and lightest on the market. They are depth rated at 400fsw and have been way past that. I really like the SS buy Rodney but for boat diving I think the X scooter would fit your needs. I build a small scooter that is 55# and is great for boat diving but the X is only 36# and has a better burn time because of the NiMh batterys. I believe the X goes for about $3800 which is the going price for all the deep tech scooters.
MarkZ dives the SS-18 and loves it and he lives over on your coast and is a deep wreck diver also. Hope this helps. I have done the "swim thru" on the RBJ/C&C wreck a few times so I know my scooter is good for 270fsw.!
If you have any other questions feel free to give me a call.
1-941-626-6725 cell anytime
"Dago"
Mike Muscato

[markZ]

Dago/Tony –

For an ocean scooter, smaller/lighter has a definite advantage, but I don’t know much about the X-scooter, so it’s hard for me to comment. Rodney makes a nice machine, lives in Jupiter, and has video options for his vehicles.

www.silent-submersion.com

I have had mixed results using a scooter for spearin’ in any case. Be careful with the models not rated for your depth; I’ve seen them start leaking and sometimes implode, even after tricks to modify them, which then leads to a circus at decompression depths trying to retrieve the vehicle. Mistakes at that depth could have serious consequences.

For UW still or video at the tech depths, the secret is the scooter. It gives you range, stability, and tames those Gulf Stream currents. If you ever need a camera man, let me know. My UV-18 is ready to go.

[SpearMax]

MarkZ, I spoke by phone with Mike about scooters. I already had Rodney's business card from the Palm Beach Dive Show and was going to contact him. Amen to your comment about the value of a scooter for deep technical camera work. Thanks for your input.

[Johnoly]

That is why I carry a submersible VHF radio and GPS in a 400 foot rated canister. It saved me and my buddy just the last weekend when our driver lost sight of the float balls. Very useful system.

Now you got me smiling. I have the Mystic and have tried 3 different "containers" to get it underwater, none successful yet. I think it's an excellent idea for our east coast, ripping current dives. During mini-season we were covering over 2 miles on the Thursday dives as calc'd by the boat's GPS. That's nutts!

Tony, can you post more details/pics on what canister/container/housing you are using with the radio. Would be a big help!!

[SpearMax]

Tony, can you post more details/pics on what canister/container/housing you are using with the radio. Would be a big help!!

OK Johnoly, here are the photos of the Spearmax Self-Rescue Kit. :cool: The canister is rated to 450 feet deep and is made by Mcmurdo. The contents include a Standard Horizon submersible VHF Radio, an emergeny flare, a signal mirror, a whistle and a Garmin Gekko GPS. My kit has worked several times for me over recent years and avoided that dreaded lost diver call to the Coast Guard. ;)

[GRIM REEFER]

Hey Tony, I like that canister. Spearfishing on air at 230' :eek:
Man your gonna love that trimix :thumps: Thanks for the report!

[Johnoly]

Thanks Tony! Those pictures are great to show how it goes together. Many thanks!!

[dagodiver]

Tony,
These are the "Jetboots" I was talking about.! :cool:
I took the pic from there site and hope they dont mind.



Dago.

[GRIM REEFER]

:lol: Those things are hilarious. Is this a joke?

[RichT]

Tony,
These are the "Jetboots" I was talking about.! :cool:
I took the pic from there site and hope they dont mind.



Dago.


I got to get me a pair of those! Nobody will EVER beat me to the bottom again! :thumps:
Of course, I may need some help dislodging my head from the sand once I get there. :D

[dagodiver]

:lol: Those things are hilarious. Is this a joke?

Shane,
No they are actually very cool for what they are intended for.
I have a buddy that has them and if you tried them you would be hooked.
Again I will say for open water deep or shallow they are pretty cool.
They are $3600 for the standard setup.


Dago.

[chasintail]

How do use the bathroom with all that sh*t on ? :D

[GRIM REEFER]

Wow, I'm surprised you'd get that much thrust out of such small props.
I guess that's the battery mounted on the guys right hand side.
Well, I have almost everything else. Except my Deep Dago scooter ;)

If you'd say I'd be hooked than I better stay away from them or I'll own
a pair or two :D

[Chad Carney]

Those jetboots are a cool looking scooter rig, but I think I'd prefer one I can ditch if it craps out. Tony's Apollo certainly makes covering more ground possible on these high current dives, but it's also more to deal with, and sometimes that can cost you dearly, especially while trying to spear trophy fish.

This first pic is Zeagle's new 6 cu ft bail-out system, which I wish I had with me, but did not. It will be standard gear on my deep dives in the future. You don't even notice it, but it could get me up to my deco tank stop depth, since I don't make overhead dives.

Here's my Uwatec Air Z O2 downloads...

#2955 is the Ande, a little colder than I thought @ 69*F.

Tony you can see I hung out to the 16 minute mark at the port side gunwale, above the breach just forward of the stern. I think I confused your rendezvous point.(?) At that point I had about 1500psi remaining. The RBT alarm shows whenever the computer predicts that I will tap into my 690 psi reserve after making a proper ascent and deco stop. It's a worthless feature when using a deco bottle it doesn't know about. Switched to 87% O2 at 24 minutes after blowing my SMB. Finished with 1100 psi in my 120. Breathing rate is .86 cfm, fairly high for me, but not considering the ripping current. I also think it's time to put a new seat in my primary regulator to keep it breathing at 100%. Max deco was 16 minutes.

Surface interval is just over 2 hours.

#2956 is The Cave dive, actually just a deep cut under a ledge. Lower breathing rate of .66 while mostly drifting with the current, except for the spike to .99 at the end of the dive, while chasing the kingfish in a circle and pinning him. 900 psi remaining in my HP100 at the switch to deco gas at 31 minutes.

Chad

[SpearMax]

How do use the bathroom with all that sh*t on ? :D

We do not piss or sh*t our wet or dry suits in the water. :D
We wait for the surface interval. ;)

[SpearMax]

#2955 is the Ande, a little colder than I thought @ 69*F.

Chad, that 69 degrees is cooler than I thought it was also. I will download my computer tonight for comparison. Thanks! :cool:

[jfjf]

...
This first pic is Zeagle's new 6 cu ft bail-out system, which I wish I had with me, but did not. It will be standard gear on my deep dives in the future. You don't even notice it, but it could get me up to my deco tank, since I don't make overhead dives.
Chad


I find it hard to believe that a 6 cu-ft tank will provide sufficient bail-out capacity for a relatively deep, decompression dive.

What SAC rate and what ascent rate would be required to allow the use of a tiny little bottle like that?

[GRIM REEFER]

We do not piss or sh*t our wet or dry suits in the water. :D
We wait for the surface interval. ;)


Waiting til you surface? :eek: Try holding it after you've already had
a twelve pack of Bud Lght :D

[GRIM REEFER]

I find it hard to believe that a 6 cu-ft tank will provide sufficient bail-out capacity for a relatively deep, decompression dive.

What SAC rate and what ascent rate would be required to allow the use of a tiny little bottle like that?


Skip breathing at 100' per min.

[dagodiver]

I find it hard to believe that a 6 cu-ft tank will provide sufficient bail-out capacity for a relatively deep, decompression dive.

What SAC rate and what ascent rate would be required to allow the use of a tiny little bottle like that?


I am just guessing but I would say the bailout is to get from where you are to where you can breath your deco gas which would be around 100fsw depending on the mix you have for a deco gas. Remember that this is the 3rd bottle in the dive plan also Chad always has a great SAC rate which is a big factor.


Dago.

[chasintail]

We do not piss or sh*t our wet or dry suits in the water. :D
We wait for the surface interval. ;)

As far as sh*ting I would have to agree.

But,there are two types of divers.Those that pee in thier wetsuits and those that lie about it. :D

[chasintail]

We do not piss or sh*t our wet or dry suits in the water. :D
We wait for the surface interval. ;)


Why the hell would you sh*t in your suit on your surface interval. :confused: :lol:

[GRIM REEFER]

Well, 87% 02 would give you an MOD of 28' at 1.6, or there abouts
going from 200' to 28' on 6 cubes, You will blow your deep stops. :eek:
I dont kive a F#ck what your SAC rate is.

[dagodiver]

Well, 87% 02 would give you an MOD of 28' at 1.6, or there abouts
going from 200' to 28' on 6 cubes, You will blow your deep stops. :eek:
I dont kive a F#ck what your SAC rate is.


We are talking about "bailout" the dive was not 200' it was on the average 160' Who the hell is talking about deep stops it is a 15 minute spear dive.?
Do the math it works just fine and is alot better than nothing. With a controlled ascent you can make your first stop at 30' with no problems at all. Well atleast it has worked for me about a zillion times.
YMMV


Dago.

[Chad Carney]

Guys, since a bail-out bottle is a last possible "stay alive" contingency, I'd say deep stops are not a concern. Once a diver gets to the deco bottle he can count himself lucky to worry about recovering decompression debt.

BTW my max BT when diving deep is usually never over 15 minutes, and almost never over 20 minutes. (How long does it take to shoot a fish anyway?)

To put things in perspective, in 34 years of diving, and 29 years of teaching and organizing dive trips, I've never seen an equipment failure that prevented breathing on ascent.

Sure it could happen, but should I carry a huge extra bail-out bottle for that extremely rare possibility?

Chad

[GRIM REEFER]

Yea sorry, I guess I was just daydreaming about next Saturday on the Wilks. And lots of beer tonight :D I guess for myself, I wouldnt feel too comfortable with that little bottle. And I have a verry low SAC rate.

[Chad Carney]

Grim,

I agree, for the Wilkes in 250 fsw, I'd be wearing doubles and packing bigger stages too!

Dive safe on Saturday! Someday maybe I'll see that wreck.

Chad

[SpearMax]

Here are the Cochran Gemini 3-gas air-integrated computer downloads for the Ande dive with Chad Carney:

[SpearMax]

Here are the rest of them:

[dagodiver]

Yea sorry, I guess I was just daydreaming about next Saturday on the Wilks. And lots of beer tonight :D I guess for myself, I wouldnt feel too comfortable with that little bottle. And I have a verry low SAC rate.


Cool, who are you diving the Wilkes with.?

Dago.

[GRIM REEFER]

Cool, who are you diving the Wilkes with.?

Dago.

Trenny Knepp and them guys, If the weather holds out. I sure hope it does.
I may do a second dive on it to shoot some fish. I think I got enough HE around here somewhere :D
Other than that, Next week is going to be all about kickin back and hangin out with some good freinds :thumps:

[GRIM REEFER]

Tony, That download thingy is very nice!
I need to get the one for my VR3. Thanks for postin it up!

[jfjf]

We are talking about "bailout" the dive was not 200' it was on the average 160' Who the hell is talking about deep stops it is a 15 minute spear dive.?

Do the math it works just fine and is alot better than nothing. With a controlled ascent you can make your first stop at 30' with no problems at all. Well atleast it has worked for me about a zillion times.
YMMV


Dago.

I think that deep stops are important, even for dives to 160 feet for 15 minutes. Actually, that is a long dive for me, since I'm often spearing and dead fish, sharks and deco penalties don't give me the warm and fuzzy feeling.

I will even make a short, deep stop for 80-90 foot dives which don't exceed the deco limit.

With regard to the math, I did it. A 6 cu ft pony bottle is NOT adequate and is not "just fine" for the type of technical dive that this thread is based on. I will concede however, that it is "better than nothing".

A 6 cu-ft pony MIGHT be adequate for a direct and rapid ascent from 130 ft for some people; any deeper and a larger pony is necessary to adequately provide the bail-out capability and to keep ascent rates below around 60 ft/min.

Spearfishing on air at depths that far exceed the recreational limits is not a trivial activity, and many people consider it stupid and irresponsible. If someone is considering engaging in these types of activities, I think they should do the math themselves. Trivializing the bail-out requirements for this type of dive on the board is not beneficial to anyone.

[SpearMax]

Trenny Knepp and them guys, If the weather holds out. I sure hope it does. I may do a second dive on it to shoot some fish. I think I got enough HE around here somewhere :D Other than that, Next week is going to be all about kickin back and hangin out with some good freinds :thumps:

That Wilkes Barre is a very nice Keys wreck. I did it on air for the Key West Open a few months ago. The experience was great and I plan to do it again someday soon. :thumps:

[SpearMax]

Tony, That download thingy is very nice!
I need to get the one for my VR3. Thanks for postin it up!

Yeah Grim, I REALLy LOVE the Cochran Gemini multi-gas computers for man reason, especially the details in their downloads. You can certainly study every aspect of your techniocal dives with its capabilities. :cool:

[dagodiver]

I think that deep stops are important, even for dives to 160 feet for 15 minutes. Actually, that is a long dive for me, since I'm often spearing and dead fish, sharks and deco penalties don't give me the warm and fuzzy feeling.

I will even make a short, deep stop for 80-90 foot dives which don't exceed the deco limit.

With regard to the math, I did it. A 6 cu ft pony bottle is NOT adequate and is not "just fine" for the type of technical dive that this thread is based on. I will concede however, that it is "better than nothing".

A 6 cu-ft pony MIGHT be adequate for a direct and rapid ascent from 130 ft for some people; any deeper and a larger pony is necessary to adequately provide the bail-out capability and to keep ascent rates below around 60 ft/min.

Spearfishing on air at depths that far exceed the recreational limits is not a trivial activity, and many people consider it stupid and irresponsible. If someone is considering engaging in these types of activities, I think they should do the math themselves. Trivializing the bail-out requirements for this type of dive on the board is not beneficial to anyone.


Either you or me are missing the point.?
During a bail out situation the deep stops mean nothing period.!
You are just trying to make it to a safe depth and regain control of the situation. I am not saying you can do ALL the stops required with the 6cf of gas but it is better than nothing and again I say this is the 3rd bottle in the plan.
YMMV

I wont mention how deep I have breathed O2 before because of a gas problem. :rolleyes:


Dago.

[SpearMax]

I am not saying you can do ALL the stops required with the 6cf of gas but it is better than nothing and again I say this is the 3rd bottle in the plan.YMMV I wont mention how deep I have breathed O2 before because of a gas problem. :rolleyes: Dago.

Mike, Chad did not have that third bottle on the Ande dive. He was minimalizing. ;) Just curious, how high was your highest PO2 in your years of diving? If you don't want to confess, I understand. But, was it above 3.0? :eek:

[Chad Carney]

Ever notice how technical divers love to tear into other divers they don't agree with and don't understand?

Much like a school of bullsharks on a kid with a polespear!

This section is called Technical Spearfishing, not saturation wreck exploration!

Later when I have more time I'll respond to this one and the other thread on the Holsten. Got one nipping at my fins over there too!

Chad

PS... Tony and I have contrasting styles, but we both get results!
We thought it might be cool to look at the differences in a friendly manner.

TG - I wasn't minimalizing, just didn't have time to refill the bailout bottles after showing them the last 2 days.

[SpearMax]

Ever notice how technial divers love to tear into other divers they don't agree with and don't understand? Much like a school of bullsharks on a kid with a polespear!This section is called Technical Spearfishing, not saturation wreck exploration!Later when I have more time I'll respond to this one and the other thread on the Holsten. Got one nipping at my fins over there too!Chad
PS... Tony and I have contrasting styles, but we both get results!
We thought it might be cool to look at the differences in a friendly manner.
TG - I wasn't minimalizing, just didn't have time to refill the bailout bottles after showing them the last 2 days.

Hey Chad good buddy! you started this bantering thread and the title has the word "experiment" in it. Posters can challenge all assumptions if they want. I have replied to specific questions about my "Gearmaximus" configuration as you labelled it (e.g. the SpearMax Self-Rescue Radio-GPS Cannister). Hopefully, differing styles can be contrasted and new knowledge is the end result. All done in a civil friendly way. :cool:

[dagodiver]

Ever notice how technial divers love to tear into other divers they don't agree with and don't understand?

Much like a school of bullsharks on a kid with a polespear!

This section is called Technical Spearfishing, not saturation wreck exploration!




Not from me.!


Dago.

[dagodiver]

Mike, Chad did not have that third bottle on the Ande dive. He was minimalizing. ;) Just curious, how high was your highest PO2 in your years of diving? If you don't want to confess, I understand. But, was it above 3.0? :eek:

On the dive my computer logged a CNS of 350% :eek: but everything went just fine. I had a bottom gas of 10/70 and a 35/25, 50/15 and 100% all on me during the entire dive. All my gasses and all me gear were usable but not the case for the other 2 divers on the team which both had a "bad" not normal gear failure and we played pass the deco gas until the support diver met us and got us what we needed. The dive could have been finished without the support but I think my CNS would have been even higher in that case. If you dive as a team you are resposible to do everything you can to complete the dive with the same number of divers that you started with.
YMMV
Tony I will finish the story over a cold beer sometime.


Dago.

[Scubado]

chad you are 100% right about the bullsharks!!! I metioned one time about a green hose for my deco bottle and all hell broke out about the subject. just use a doughnut ring to sit with,that eases the pain :thumps:

[GRIM REEFER]

On the dive my computer logged a CNS of 350% :eek: but everything went just fine. I had a bottom gas of 10/70 and a 35/25, 50/15 and 100% all on me during the entire dive. All my gasses and all me gear were usable but not the case for the other 2 divers on the team which both had a "bad" not normal gear failure and we played pass the deco gas until the support diver met us and got us what we needed. The dive could have been finished without the support but I think my CNS would have been even higher in that case. If you dive as a team you are resposible to do everything you can to complete the dive with the same number of divers that you started with.YMMV
Tony I will finish the story over a cold beer sometime.


Dago.

Wow, That sounds like an interesting dive. What hapened, Valves wouldn't
open ;) Dude, When are we going to do some diving?

[Chad Carney]

Hey Chad good buddy! you started this bantering thread and the title has the word "experiment" in it. :cool:

Tony,

The only thing experimental was the spearfishing... to see which method won out. Answer: neither, nadda, zip fish! :D

Nothing experimental about the dive, we've both done hundreds like this.

My computer calculates in ffw, so my real max depth was 178 fsw. Average for 9 minutes of the BT, about 140 fsw, almost recreational. I think it reads a couple degrees cold too. My other computer read 71*F, and yours 74*F.

Chad

[SpearMax]

Gotcha. I like seeing the computer downloads for comparison. I agree it was probably in the low 70s for temperature.

Tony,

The only thing experimental was the spearfishing... to see which method won out. Answer: neither, nadda, zip fish! :D

Nothing experimental about the dive, we've both done hundreds like this.

My computer calculates in ffw, so my real max depth was 178 fsw. Average for 9 minutes of the BT, about 140 fsw, almost recreational. I think it reads a couple degrees cold too. My other computer read 71*F, and yours 74*F.

Chad

[dagodiver]

Trivializing the bail-out requirements for this type of dive on the board is not beneficial to anyone.

Sorry you feel this way but I would NEVER trivialize any dive. I treat all my dives the same weather it is a 35 fsw sharks tooth dive or a 350 fsw wreck dive. I get teased alot for being to anal about the details but to bad it is just the way I dive.

Last post for me.


Dago.

[jfjf]

..Last post for me.

Dago.


Sorry to hear that. I directly challenged the general assertion that a 6 cu-ft pony bottle is adequate for a bail-out from 180 feet or so. Chad seemed to suggest this and your subsequent posts seemed to support it.

I said the math didn't work. The posts which followed implied that there was some type of misunderstanding, but nothing I read afterward provided me a clearer picture. I think that if someone chooses to dive with no redundancy in 50, 100 or 250 ft, then that is certainly their right and I probably wouldn’t criticize them as long as I thought they were making informed decisions. Hell, some people freedive that deep! I have ZERO training in technical diving and the only helium I ever breathed was from a balloon. I am not challenging anyone’s knowledge, diving ability or personal decisions.

My sole concern is that an uninformed reader might try to apply some of the information in this thread to their own diving without taking the time to quantitatively examine the information. Maybe I took some of the information out of context?

[Jaizzen]

Either you or me are missing the point.?
During a bail out situation the deep stops mean nothing period.!
You are just trying to make it to a safe depth and regain control of the situation. I am not saying you can do ALL the stops required with the 6cf of gas but it is better than nothing and again I say this is the 3rd bottle in the plan.
YMMV

I wont mention how deep I have breathed O2 before because of a gas problem. :rolleyes:


Dago.

I agree with Dago whole heartedly. 6cf is plenty depending on the diver.

Specifically the below statement.

"I am not saying you can do ALL the stops required with the 6cf of gas but it is better than nothing and again I say this is the 3rd bottle in the plan."

This is just my opinion. Jason

[kitefisherman]

I think that the whole point of the bail out bottle is to get you up to where you can more safely breathe your high O2 deco gas. Most of the deeper (180'-200') spearfishing dives that I do are more like extended bounce dives with around 10-15 minutes of bottom time max (less if there's nothing to shoot) - sometimes I have no deco obligation at all. While I think that most people agree that optional deep stops are a good practice and desirable, they are seldom required in the type of diving that I do. My first required stop is usually no more than 20 feet. I personally would prefer to have a 13 cft bail out bottle, but I think that 6 cft would probably get you up at least 100' (from about 200') even if you were a bit excited and breathing a little heavy - probably more like 150'. Regardless of where you got, it would be a lot better doing the gas switch with 3 or more less atmospheres of pressure pushing up your PPO. Even if the gas switch was relatively deep (say 100'), you would be continuing to ascend to a depth where your PPO would fall within a safe range. While the optional deep stops are a good practice, they are a luxury that you can't afford in an emergency when you need to rely on a bail out bottle. Blowing off required deep stops is a completely different matter altogether. That's my take on it anyway.

[SpearMax]

I personally would prefer to have a 13 cft bail out bottle, but I think that 6 cft would probably get you up at least 100' (from about 200') even if you were a bit excited and breathing a little heavy - probably more like 150'.

John, I tend to agree with you. :stupid:

I personally carry a 19 cube bail-out bottle, but I am a maximizer for safety. I think 13 cubes might be OK. 6 cubes is better than nothing, but my one major out-of-air experience where I almost lost my life (got that one on film also) taught me that my breathing will definitely accelerate under the stress of running out of air. My buddy who saved me saw his air diminish rapidly when we started buddy breathing at about 100 feet. My air-sucking in that emergency woke me up to the reality of bail out procedures. Tech divers make equipment configuration choices they have to live (or die) with. To each his own! ;)

Thanks for your input, Tony

[Chad Carney]

I had every intention to wear that 6 cu ft bottle on this dive. And since then, I have on a couple more tech spearfishing dives. (My sales rep job caused me to use up the air in the 6, the day before, which I won't allow to happen again.)

Normally I also don't have 87% for a deco gas. Usually it's more like 65%, with a MOD of 48 feet.

Many spearfishermen use one bottle, as a combination of part bail out and part deco, with 40% to 50%. Much like boaters who won't wear a life preserver, many will not wear any kind of 3rd bail-out tank because of the bulk and hassle.

I think this little 6 cu ft is the answer for me, to allow a separate bail out bottle, which I could use on a rapid ascent to about 50' where I could then recover with my 30 cu ft deco bottle.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've never seen any math that can show how long a 6 cu ft bail-out will last as a diver ascends 100 or 130 feet. I will test the theory one of these days. It's just not practical to do such a test, when you plan to do real dives afterwards.

Some divers should definitely not minimalize on moderately technical spearfishing dives, due to their physical condition and also due to equipment drag. (Some probably should not dive beyond recreational depths, period.) 100'+ freediver skills and wearing a streamlined tech system tip the odds in a diver's favor.

As Dago says... YMMV.

Chad

Tony, my back up computer read 74*F, minimum temp. My primary computer's thermometer is whacked.