10 Reasons To Vote Republican

[bgbill]

Here are 10 good reasons why you should vote Republican comeelection day. You won’t hear about them on ABC, CBS,NBC News.

Reason #1. The economy is kicking butt. It is robust, vibrant, strong and growing. In the 36 months since the Bush tax cuts ended the recession that began under President Clinton, the economy has experienced astonishing growth. Over the first half of this year, our economy grew at a strong 4.1 percent annual rate, faster than any other major industrialized nation. This strong economic activity has generated historic revenue growth that has shrunk the deficit. A continued commitment to spending restraint has also contributed to deficit reduction.

Reason #2. Unemployment is almost nil for a major economy, and is verging on full employment. Recently, jobless claims fell to the lowest level in 10 weeks. Employment increased in 48 states over the past 12 months ending in August. Our economy has now added jobs for 37 straight months.

Reason #3. The Dow is hitting record highs. In the past few days, the Dow climbed above 12,000 for the first time in the history of the stock market, thus increasing the value of countless pension and 401(k) that funds many Americans rely on for their retirement years.

Reason #4. Wages have risen dramatically. According to the Washington Post, demand for labor helped drive workers’ average hourly wages, not including those of most managers, up to $16.84 last month — a 4 percent increase from September 2005, the fastest wage growth in more than five years. Nominal wage growth has been 4.1 percent so far this year. This is better or comparable to its 1990s peaks. Over the first half of 2006, employee compensation per hour grew at a 6.3 percent annual rate adjusted for inflation. Real after-tax income has risen a whopping 15 percent since January 2001. Real after-tax income per person has risen by 9 percent since January 2001.

Reason #5. Gas prices have plunged. According to the Associated Press, the price of gasoline has fallen to its lowest level in more than 10 months. The federal Energy Information Administration said Monday that U.S. motorists paid $2.21 a gallon on average for regular grade last week, a decrease of 1.8 cents from the previous week. Pump prices are now 40 cents lower than a year ago and have plummeted by more than 80 cents a gallon since the start of August. The previous 2006 low for gasoline was set in the first week of January, when pump prices averaged $2.238. In the week ending Dec. 5, 2005, prices averaged $2.19. Today, gasoline can be found for less than $2 a gallon in many parts of the country.

Reason #6. Since 9/11, no terrorist attacks have occurred on U.S. soil. Since 9/11 the U.S. has not been attacked by terrorists thanks to such programs as the administration’s monitoring of communications between al-Qaida operatives overseas and their agents in the U.S. and the monitoring of the international movement of terrorist funds — both measure bitterly opposed by Democrats.

Reason #7. Productivity is surging and has grown by a strong 2.5 percent over the past four quarters, well ahead of the average productivity growth in the last 30 years. Strong productivity growth helps lead to the growth of the Gross Domestic Product, higher real wages, and stronger corporate profits.

Reason #8. The Prescription Drug Program is working. Despite dire predictions that most seniors would refrain from signing up to the new Medicare prescription benefits program, fully 75 percent of all those on Medicare have enrolled, and the overwhelming majority say they are happy with the program.

Reason #9. Bush has kept his promise of naming conservative judges. He has named two conservative justices to the Supreme Court, Chief Justice John G. Roberts and Justice Samuel Alito. In addition, he has named conservative justices who are devoted to the Constitution as it is written and not as activist liberal judges think it means... The strong likelihood that one or more justices will retire from the Supreme Court makes it mandatory for the Republicans to hold the Senate and have a chance to name new conservative justices.

Reason #10. The deficit has been cut in half three years ahead of the president’s 2009 goal, with the 2006 fiscal year budget deficit down to $248 billion. The tax cuts have stimulated the economy and are working.

[DIVERTOM]

One good reason not to, unless you agree with this behavior.

[bgbill]

One good reason not to, unless you agree with this behavior.

Do you agree with Nancy Pelosi or Hillary Clinton?

[DIVERTOM]

Another reason not to vote Republican unless you agree with his behavior.
What is has taken the Dems. 40 years to screw up, the Reps. only took
4!

[Ed Walker]

and one good reason not to:

[lens]

Bret,
I match you and raise you ten more reasons why one should not vote Republican. I can Spin too:D

#1 Our economy has actualy only grown a total 1.5% since 2000. The economy grew 4% a YEAR from 1992-2000 with a Democrat in power. The economy grew for 116 consecutive months, the most in history. And we had a surplus at the end.

#2 Yes and no unemployment is down, service job (waiting tables) employment has risen and individuals that hold two jobs.

At the end of 2000 unemployment was at 4% it is currently at 4.4!

U.S. Department of Labor: Employment increased in October, and the unemployment rate declined to 4.4 percent (15 million unemployed), the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today. Non farm payroll employment grew by 92,000 in October In October, job growth continued in several service-providing industries, while employment declined in manufacturing and construction.


#3 The Dow with a Democrat in power:
1992-close at 3,004.46, first close above 3,000.00
2000-close at 11,522.56, first close above 11,500.00.
=A 8,500 points in growth.

Since the Republicans have had FULL power a measly 500 point growth.


#4 if we (the Middle Class) are making so much money like Republicans say, why are so many people crying about paying more for gas and why has Middle America increased their credit debt 4 Trillion dollars nationwide over the past 4 years.

Lets look at what a Democrat does:
From 1993 to 1999, real median family income increased by $6,338, from $42,612 in 1993 to $48,950 in 1999, and that is in "1999 dollars."



#5 Gas prices rose to all time levels when Republicans took power and dropped when Republicans are trying to retain political power and may lose.


#6 We had not had an attack of 911 magnitude on America since Pearl Harbor. And back then, we killed the SOB’s that attacked us.


#7 The distance between CEO compensation and employee/stockholder compensation is drastically growing. And we are giving tax breaks to US companies that go offshore and outsource and not helping the ones that stay in the US and hire in the US.


#8 The Prescription drug program is not working. It does not allow Medicare to negotiate drug prices for the majority of people who need the drugs. Even most Republicans now disagree with the Prescription Drug Program. At least we have Wal-Mart!



#9 Uhhhhh…..your right, he kept his word.:rolleyes:


#10 The deficit is 275 billion. The Admin used 400 Billion of Social Security to pay for it. It is actually 675 Billion. And our national debt has risen to 9 TRILLION dollars. We got to pay those credit cards sometime!

With a Democrat as our leader we had a surplus

[bgbill]

and one good reason not to:


If Clinton would have went after Bin Laden when he had a chance (at least 3), we might not have had 3,000 people killed on 9-11.

If Clinton was more concerned with the security of the United Staes than getting a blowjob from Monica, we wouldn't have had so many terrorists attacks.

[DIVERTOM]

Here's a hard choice to make Harris or Nelson. Unless you agree with her
actions.

[bgbill]

Here's a hard choice to make Harris or Nelson. Unless you agree with her
actions.

What exactly did Harris do wrong when she was Secretary of State? :rolleyes:

She followed the law and certified the election, it was the Democrats that were trying to steal the election, and she did what she was supposed to do, and that was follow the law, I know it is a hard concept for democrats to grasp.

[DIVERTOM]

Direct access to the White House for consultations unless you believe in
his actions.


Harris's Wilkpedia bio is good enough info to look at. Lots of travel
expenses on the tax payers and some corruption.

[bgbill]

Here is a good reason to vote Republican

[bgbill]

Another 1

[bgbill]

How about the KKK and the Democratic party?

[DIVERTOM]

I hear the Pres was on this guys show this week. Reformed alcoholic and
drug addict, neither who served his country in an honorable manor. If it was
not for his dad getting shot down in WWII who would he be?

[bgbill]

How many people must die because of the Kennedy's?

[DIVERTOM]

When it comes to the KKK this is the only confirmed member who just
happens to be guess what, yep a Republican.

[DIVERTOM]

As the Twin Towers were laying in ruins and still smoking this guy spoke
these words.

"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say: you helped this happen."

Later it was found that the hijackers were screaming "Alah, Alah, Alah"
as they were crashing and killing thousands. Sensible religion from this
Republican? No a one way ticket to the "Dark Ages" Remember who was
financing Paula Jones attacks on Clinton, Yep it was him. It took a lot a
time to combat this bufoon and Clinton should have been more attentive
to world affairs but this deflected time and resources but this guy probably
pats himself on the back for creating a "Jerry Springer" atmosphere in D.C.

[bgbill]

When it comes to the KKK this is the only confirmed member who just
happens to be guess what, yep a Republican.

Senator Robert Byrd (D), was a member of the KKK, seems to me the Democrats have a short memory. :rolleyes:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/18/AR2005061801105.html

A Senator's Shame
Byrd, in His New Book, Again Confronts Early Ties to KKK

By Eric Pianin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 19, 2005; Page A01

In the early 1940s, a politically ambitious butcher from West Virginia named Bob Byrd recruited 150 of his friends and associates to form a chapter of the Ku Klux Klan. After Byrd had collected the $10 joining fee and $3 charge for a robe and hood from every applicant, the "Grand Dragon" for the mid-Atlantic states came down to tiny Crab Orchard, W.Va., to officially organize the chapter.

As Byrd recalls now, the Klan official, Joel L. Baskin of Arlington, Va., was so impressed with the young Byrd's organizational skills that he urged him to go into politics. "The country needs young men like you in the leadership of the nation," Baskin said.

The young Klan leader went on to become one of the most powerful and enduring figures in modern Senate history. Throughout a half-century on Capitol Hill, Sen. Robert C. Byrd (D-W.Va.) has twice held the premier leadership post in the Senate, helped win ratification of the Panama Canal treaty, squeezed billions from federal coffers to aid his home state, and won praise from liberals for his opposition to the war in Iraq and his defense of minority party rights in the Senate.

Despite his many achievements, however, the venerated Byrd has never been able to fully erase the stain of his association with one of the most reviled hate groups in the nation's history.

[jackpine savage]

Vote for whomever you like just please vote

[fishhunta]

Vote for whomever you like just please vote

Though I think I might vote slightly different then you, I wholeheartedly agree with you there!!!!
Politics is all the crap in the way of getting things done.

[WreckDiver]

Bret is having to much fun:D EVERYBODY SHOULD vote but damn at least try to know who or what you are voting for or aginst.

[DIVERTOM]

Heres one of the greatest Republicans, a man who could heal an ailment
for the proper donation, right on TV he would perform these feats. He
could direct meteors into your town or Disney for believing in evolution.
Funny he could not get himself elected president.

[bgbill]

Here is all the reason not to vote for a Democrat.

[jackpine savage]

I don't know Bret I think I may vote for her if she continues to wear that. :D

[WreckDiver]

Bret you should be shot for posting that, Now my I's r brning.

[WreckDiver]

I don't know Bret I think I may vote for her if she continues to wear that. :D



Well if you like that then you should love this. (insert icon for vomiting)

[jackpine savage]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[aaron proffitt]

Bret,
I match you and raise you ten more reasons why one should not vote Republican. I can Spin too:D

#1 Our economy has actualy only grown a total 1.5% since 2000. The economy grew 4% a YEAR from 1992-2000 with a Democrat in power. The economy grew for 116 consecutive months, the most in history. And we had a surplus at the end.

#2 Yes and no unemployment is down, service job (waiting tables) employment has risen and individuals that hold two jobs.

At the end of 2000 unemployment was at 4% it is currently at 4.4!

U.S. Department of Labor: Employment increased in October, and the unemployment rate declined to 4.4 percent (15 million unemployed), the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today. Non farm payroll employment grew by 92,000 in October In October, job growth continued in several service-providing industries, while employment declined in manufacturing and construction.


#3 The Dow with a Democrat in power:
1992-close at 3,004.46, first close above 3,000.00
2000-close at 11,522.56, first close above 11,500.00.
=A 8,500 points in growth.

Since the Republicans have had FULL power a measly 500 point growth.


#4 if we (the Middle Class) are making so much money like Republicans say, why are so many people crying about paying more for gas and why has Middle America increased their credit debt 4 Trillion dollars nationwide over the past 4 years.

Lets look at what a Democrat does:
From 1993 to 1999, real median family income increased by $6,338, from $42,612 in 1993 to $48,950 in 1999, and that is in "1999 dollars."



#5 Gas prices rose to all time levels when Republicans took power and dropped when Republicans are trying to retain political power and may lose.











#10 The deficit is 275 billion. The Admin used 400 Billion of Social Security to pay for it. It is actually 675 Billion. And our national debt has risen to 9 TRILLION dollars. We got to pay those credit cards sometime!

With a Democrat as our leader we had a surplus



All things considered(worse terrorist attack on American soil in history, a natural disaster that leveled a major city,followed quickly by another,2 wars ), I'd say things look pretty rosy. Comparing the two administrations challenges,Clinton's was a walk in tha park.

[DIVERTOM]

Republicans, the party of the religious right, well wheres Oral Roberts you
know the one who also cures by using miracles, and also commanded money
from the flock with his "If you don't send me 4 million dollars now God will
call me back". How can anyone with an IQ over 60 believe these bufoons
well because some states have kind of low test scores like maybe coming
in 48th out of fifty on SAT tests. Yes my home state of Florida holds that
title and home of Oral.

[bgbill]

Here is another great Democrat

[bgbill]

A couple of more reason's not to vote for a Democrat.

[DIVERTOM]

Well it just seems like yesterday, Remember Oliver North, squirreled away in the White House basement baking cakes and smuggling arms for the ayatollahs. What happened? We are not friends with them anymore Could
they send them cakes back. And farm credits to Sadam but used to buy
arms I want a refund. Billions to help fight the Soviets in Afganistan please
return those weapons. Remember the time this clown went to the river
Potamac and cried out "Sodom and Gamorrah on the Potamac" about our
Capitol and who's there now? Why would a Republican would even run for
an office called this name. Sounds absurd to me.

[bgbill]

Who could forget Sandy Berger, who stole Top Secret records from the National Archive.

[bgbill]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/08/berger.sentenced/

Sandy Berger fined $50,000 for taking documents
Must perform 100 hours of community service

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Former National Security Adviser Sandy Berger was sentenced Thursday to community service and probation and fined $50,000 for illegally removing highly classified documents from the National Archives and intentionally destroying some of them.

Berger must perform 100 hours of community service and pay the fine as well as $6,905 for the administrative costs of his two-year probation, a district court judge ruled.

"I deeply regret the actions that I took at the National Archives two years ago, and I accept the judgment of the court," Berger said outside the courthouse after his sentencing.

"I'm glad that the 9/11 commission has made clear that it received all the documents that it sought, all the documents that it needed, and I'm pleased to finally have this matter resolved," he added.

Berger reached a plea deal with federal prosecutors in April to avoid a jail sentence.

At that time, he said the reason he took the documents was so he could prepare himself and others to assist the 9/11 commission, which investigated the circumstances surrounding the 2001 terrorist attacks and published a report of its findings last year.

The documents taken by Berger dealt with the terror threats during the 2000 millennium celebration, according to parties in the case.

According to the charges, Berger -- between September 2 and October 2, 2003 -- "knowingly removed classified documents from the National Archives and Records Administration and stored and retained such documents at places," such as his private Washington office.

Berger's associates admit he took five copies of an after-action report detailing the 2000 millennium terror plot from the Archives. The aides say Berger returned to his office, discovered that three of the copies appeared to be duplicates and cut them up with scissors.

The revelations were a dramatic change from Berger's claim last year that he had made an "honest mistake" and either misplaced or unintentionally threw the documents away.

When Archives officials contacted him after they realized documents were missing, Berger told them about the two copies he had, and returned them, along with his handwritten notes, officials said.

CNN Producer Paul Courson and Justice Department Producer Terry Frieden contributed to this report

[DIVERTOM]

To make a mistake is human and Dems don't hold our politians to be perfect
unlike our unfalible Republican popes. How about this guy, like his prostitute
said, "He's not the kind of person you would want around children". The
Republicans learned the hard way not to give someone a second chance
because of bufoons like this.

[bgbill]

To make a mistake is human and Dems don't hold our politians to be perfect
unlike our unfalible Republican popes. How about this guy, like his prostitute
said, "He's not the kind of person you would want around children". The
Republicans learned the hard way not to give someone a second chance
because of bufoons like this.

Exactly what office did he hold? :confused:

[bgbill]

James A. Traficant Jr. (D) Here is his Mugshot, he was convicted of taking bribes.

[DIVERTOM]

He held the office of evanglical, they subscribe to the Repulican party
and use their office to coerse voters to vote Republican. Oh were is
Jim and Tammy now? Just like you started this thread.

[bgbill]

Gary Condit (D) The congressman in the Chandra Levy case.

[lens]

All things considered(worse terrorist attack on American soil in history, a natural disaster that leveled a major city,followed quickly by another,2 wars ), I'd say things look pretty rosy. Comparing the two administrations challenges,Clinton's was a walk in tha park.

I know, but I had (enjoy) to be the Devil's Advocate.

I fight authority, but damnit Authority keeps on winning! ;)

[richhermes]

Well if you like that then you should love this. (insert icon for vomiting)
http://www.spearboard.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=40871&stc=

I'd hit it!! :thumps:

[bgbill]

Marion Barry (D) smoking Crack

[SpearMax]

I'd hit it!! :thumps:
But Rich ---is it real? :confused:

[bgbill]

Democrats found guilty of Massive Voter Fraud

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010881.php

Democrats Found Guilty

Democratic Party officials in East St. Louis, Illinois have been convicted of massive voter fraud in last November's election. The local jury convicted them of, among other things, paying people to vote Democratic. This is, really, only the tip of the iceberg; still to come is an attempted murder trial arising out of the effort by a Democratic Party official to murder a witness who threatened to blow the whistle on the Democratic official's corruption. Based on press accounts, I understand that in the attempted murder case, the prosecution will offer into evidence photographs that were shown to the Democratic Party official, which appeared to show the dead body of the witness whom the official had ordered murdered.

Voter fraud has been a key part of the Democratic Party's electoral strategy for years. Will criminal prosecutions slow down the Democrats' efforts to commit fraud in future elections? I doubt it, but it is good to see ordinary citizens rising up, through the criminal justice system, to bring the Democratic Party to heel.

[bgbill]

Mel Reynolds (D)

http://www.cnn.com/US/9611/07/reynolds.indict/

Ex-Congressman Reynolds & wife indicted for fraud
November 7, 1996
Web posted at: 7:40 p.m. EST
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Former Illinois Democratic Congressman Mel Reynolds and his wife were indicted by a federal grand jury Thursday on a variety of fraud charges relating to personal and campaign finances.

The former Chicago lawmaker faces 16 felony counts returned by a grand jury in Chicago. His wife Marisol faces nine counts.

Reynolds, 44, resigned from Congress soon after he was convicted in August 1995 on charges of criminal sexual assault, obstruction of justice and solicitation of child pornography in a case stemming from his relationship with a 16-year-old campaign worker. Reynolds was sentenced to five years in prison for those crimes, and is expected to be released from the East Moline Correctional Institution in early 1998.

He was first elected to Congress in 1992.

The Justice Department said the new charges involve a variety of offenses including misuse of campaign funds and lying to the Federal Election Commission.

Specifically, Mel Reynolds is named in one count of bank fraud, two counts of wire fraud, eight counts of making false statements on loan applications, one count of conspiracy to defraud the Federal Election Commission, and four counts of making false statements to the FEC. Federal prosecutors allege both Mr. and Mrs. Reynolds tried to conceal from the FEC the way in which campaign contributions were spent.

The government says the couple directed various campaign workers to cash checks drawn on campaign accounts and to give the cash back to them. The Reynolds' are charged with conspiring to defraud the FEC during his 1990, 1992 and 1994 campaigns for Congress by impeding the commission and making false statements about campaign expenditures.

Reynolds is also charged with defrauding four banks by making false statements to obtain $150,000 in personal loans.

[DIVERTOM]

Hot off the press! The Rev. Ted Haggard was dismissed Saturday as leader of the megachurch he founded after a board determined the influential evangelist had committed "sexually immoral conduct," the church said Saturday.
President Bush encouraged voters to select candidates who will lower taxes and defend "traditional values" as he kicked off the final campaign weekend in a state where gay marriage dominates the political debate.

I thought they were friends!

[DIVERTOM]

Just plain racism.

At a campaign rally in southwest Virginia on Friday, where the audience was exclusively white, Republican George Allen repeatedly pointed to a volunteer for Democrat James Webb - a male of Indian descent - and called him "macaca." Allen said, "Let's give a welcome to macaca, here. Welcome to America and the real world of Virginia." He then began talking about the "war on terror."

Scary stuff:
Allen is running for a second term in the Senate while planning a possible presidential bid in 2008.


This is not the first time Allen has confronted charges of insensitivity to race or ethnicity from minority leaders and longtime political opponents: He collects confederate flags and stirred controversy as governor by issuing a proclamation noting the south's celebration of Confederate History Month without a mention of slavery. Then, the New Republic magazine published a photo of Allen wearing a Confederate flag on his lapel during high school, to which Allen's communications director responded, "It wasn't a racial statement; it was a statement about his rebellious nature."

[bgbill]

Hot off the press! The Rev. Ted Haggard was dismissed Saturday as leader of the megachurch he founded after a board determined the influential evangelist had committed "sexually immoral conduct," the church said Saturday.
President Bush encouraged voters to select candidates who will lower taxes and defend "traditional values" as he kicked off the final campaign weekend in a state where gay marriage dominates the political debate.

I thought they were friends!


What Office does he hold?

Is he running for any office as a Republican?

[jackpine savage]

He was the head of teh Evangelical movement in this country, to say that they have no influence within the Republican Party is being disingenouos

[WreckDiver]

But Rich ---is it real? :confused:


That phot is real but old. Here is a current picture for ya Rich.

[DIVERTOM]

I would say they are religious republican kooks.

[bgbill]

Senator Daniel Ken Inouye Democrat, accused of Sexual Harassment

[WreckDiver]

He was the head of teh Evangelical movement in this country, to say that they have no influence within the Republican Party is being disingenouos


Kinda like PETA not having any on the democrat side ;) :eek:

[DIVERTOM]

They don't show that Hawaiin's arm he lost in the war fighting Germans
unlike your Pres who fought in Alabama. instead of Vietnam,

[bgbill]

He was the head of teh Evangelical movement in this country, to say that they have no influence within the Republican Party is being disingenouos

Who said he didn't have any influence?

I guess I should say, he used to have Influence.

As far as Jim and Tammy Faye Baker go, are they even Republicans?

[bgbill]

They don't show that Hawaiin's arm he lost in the war fighting Germans
unlike your Pres who fought in Alabama. instead of Vietnam,

So does that mean because he is a Democrat, and wounded during the war, he gets a free pass?

[bgbill]

Speaking of War Hero's that got injured, what about Bob Dole a republican.

[DIVERTOM]

Link to Nixons resignation, ole Tricky Dick. http://www.hbci.com/~tgort/resign.htm

[bgbill]

.

[DIVERTOM]

Openly Gay republicans deal with Foley fallout
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/15198066/

[bgbill]

Paula Jones versus President Bill Clinton Democrat

By Stuart Taylor, Jr.
The American Lawyer
November 1996


When William Jefferson Clinton v. Paula Corbin Jones comes before the U.S. Supreme Court -- as expected -- in January, all eyes will be on Justice Clarence Thomas. Will a flicker of emotion crease his usually impassive glare as he ponders a she-said, he- said fact pattern so hauntingly reminiscent of his own ordeal five years ago? Will he think of how -- in the words that spill like a raging torrent from Thomas's close friend (and sometime self-appointed spokesman) Armstrong Williams -- "Mrs. Clinton went out to San Francisco to present Anita Hill with the woman of the year award"? Williams adds: "I wonder when she's going to present an award to Paula Jones? And where is NOW? People need to see the hypocrisy here."

It was actually an American Bar Association commission on women that presented an award to Hill. But Williams has a point. Hillary Clinton spoke at the August 1992 award luncheon, celebrating Hill for having "transformed consciousness and changed history with her courageous testimony" against Thomas. Both women were hailed as heroines at that ABA convention, by a host of women lawyers and others who have shunned Jones as a pariah.

Generally overlooked, meanwhile, has been the fact that the evidence supporting Paula Jones's allegations of predatory, if not depraved, behavior by Bill Clinton is far stronger than the evidence supporting Anita Hill's allegations of far less serious conduct by Clarence Thomas.

Jones's evidence includes clear proof, scattered through the public record, that then-governor Clinton's state trooper-bodyguard interrupted the then-24-year-old state employee on the job on May 8, 1991, and took her to meet Clinton -- the boss of Jones's boss -- alone in an upstairs suite at Little Rock's Excelsior Hotel, for the apparent purpose of sexual dalliance. The evidence also includes strongly corroborative statements made to me by two of Jones's friends, complete with tellingly detailed, seamy specifics -- some never published until now -- that are remarkably consistent with Jones's allegations about what happened inside that suite. The friends relate how an extremely upset Jones had told one of them within ten minutes of the event, and the other within 90 minutes, that Clinton had suddenly exposed himself and demanded oral sex after Jones had rebuffed his efforts to grope her. One of these women, Pamela Blackard, also witnessed the trooper's approach to Jones and her departure to and return from Clinton's hotel room. Both told me that, on the basis of Jones's detailed descriptions and distraught demeanor that day, they are convinced that she was, and is, telling the truth. They both signed sworn, generally worded affidavits for Jones in 1994.

Blackard and the other woman, Debra Ballentine, first told their stories in February 1994 in exclusive interviews to reporter Michael Isikoff, then of The Washington Post. But to Isikoff's chagrin, the Post printed only sketchy fragments of their accounts, 11 weeks later. Blackard's and Ballentine's detailed, previously unpublished stories provide far stronger corroboration for Jones's allegations than anyone could know from reports by the Post or any other major news organization

[bgbill]

Openly Gay republicans deal with Foley fallout
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/15198066/

What Foley did was wrong, but at least he stepped down from Office.

Why don't the Democrats do the same thing when they screw up?

[DIVERTOM]

http://www.expressgaynews.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog_id=6415

This Republican is just so swishy. He likes to smoke the swisher sweet cigar
called the "White Owl"

[DIVERTOM]

Former Porn Star: Drunk Republicans Hit On Me More Than Las Vegas Porno Fans...
Crooks And Liars | Posted March 17, 2006 11:05 PM

Carey was on Scarborough Country, and said that drunk Republicans hit on her more than people at the AVN Porn awards. (rough transcript)

Scarborough: When you're in Washington DC, hanging out with the Republicans, are they on their best behaviour?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/03/17/former-porn-star-drunk-r_n_17496.html

[bgbill]

http://www.expressgaynews.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog_id=6415

This Republican is just so swishy. He likes to smoke the swisher sweet cigar
called the "White Owl"

Funny you should mention cigars.

Bill Clinton Democrat used a Cigar on Monica Lewinsky.

http://www.rotten.com/library/history/political-scandal/lewinsky-affair/

In September 1998, independent counsel Ken Starr submitted his report to Congress. Here's the summary of events that most people were looking for:


The sexual encounters generally occurred in or near the private study off the Oval Office -- most often in the windowless hallway outside the study. During many of their sexual encounters, the President stood leaning against the doorway of the bathroom across from the study, which, he told Ms. Lewinsky, eased his sore back.
Ms. Lewinsky testified that her physical relationship with the President included oral sex but not sexual intercourse. According to Ms. Lewinsky, she performed oral sex on the President; he never performed oral sex on her. Initially, according to Ms. Lewinsky, the President would not let her perform oral sex to completion. In Ms. Lewinsky's understanding, his refusal was related to "trust and not knowing me well enough." During their last two sexual encounters, both in 1997, he did ejaculate.

According to Ms. Lewinsky, she performed oral sex on the President on nine occasions. On all nine of those occasions, the President fondled and kissed her bare breasts. He touched her genitals, both through her underwear and directly, bringing her to orgasm on two occasions. On one occasion, the President inserted a cigar into her ******. On another occasion, she and the President had brief genital-to-genital contact

[jackpine savage]

Speaking of War Hero's that got injured, what about Bob Dole a republican.
Bob Dole was the last of the truly decent and good Republicans, the Party has fallen far since he left.

[DIVERTOM]

Yea but at least it was heterosexual.

[WreckDiver]

Bret you have a new PM, and that last story did not need to be brought back up.

[bgbill]

Yea but at least it was heteosexual.


You seem to have a bias against homosexuals, what’s the deal?

I thought that Democrats didn't discriminate against anyone?

[DIVERTOM]

Speeding Kills

In May 2000, a two-page police report pertaining to a fatal accident that had taken place near Midland, Texas, in 1963 was made public. It contained the information that 17-year-old Laura Welch had run a stop sign, causing the death of the sole occupant of the vehicle hers had struck. According to that report, the future First Lady had been driving her Chevrolet sedan on a clear night shortly after 8 p.m. on 6 November 1963 when she entered an intersection without heeding the stop sign and there collided with the Corvair sedan driven by 17-year-old Michael Douglas. Also in the car with Laura Welch was a passenger, 17-year-old Judy Dykes.

How fast Miss Welch might have been driving is open to question. That part of the police report is illegible, although two biographies of the First Lady refer to her as having been going 50 mph at the time of the collision. The speed limit on that portion of road was 55 mph. According to the police report neither driver had been drinking, but no tests were performed. No charges were filed as a result of the accident.

The speed is illegible! Why? Don't mention this sad story at any Republican
gathering as it not talked about now. But Hillary is an open target? How
hypicritical!

[DIVERTOM]

TALLAHASSEE, Florida (CNN) -- The daughter of Florida Gov. Jeb Bush was arrested early Tuesday after she allegedly tried to fill a false prescription at a Tallahassee, Florida, pharmacy, police said.

Police arrested Noelle Bush, 24, at about 1:15 a.m. EST at a Walgreens drugstore and charged her with fraudulently obtaining a controlled substance, a jail spokesman said. Police said she was attempting to pick up Xanax, a sedative used to treat anxiety disorder. The drug can make users feel drowsy and dizzy as it reduces nervousness and tension.

However, Xanax also is growing in popularity in the club drug scene, where it is used as a "parachute drug" taken to reduce the impact of the drug ecstasy, said Joe Kilmer of Drug Enforcement Administration's Miami office.

Bush was released pending a court appearance.

[bgbill]

John F. Kennedy Jr. Democrat

Kills Wife and Sister Inlaw in a Plane Wreck, he was the Pilot.

[WreckDiver]

At least Mrs. Bush stopped.

Unlike H Clinton. Who's car struck a gaurd at an airport about 4 years ago. She was in a hurry and kept going. I am sure someone her could dig up the story.

[DIVERTOM]

George W. Bush has not treated veterans well since he came to power (cutting combat pay, cutting veterans benefits, um, getting an awful lot of them killed for nothing), but that certainly wasn't enough to pry the Republican party's nose from the military's ass last week. Fortunately some bold delegates decided to show the GOP's true colors and went to great lengths to ridicule America's veterans.
Yes, the must-have accessory on day one of the Convention was the "Purple Heart Band-Aid" - brainchild of Morton Blackwell, a delegate from Virginia. These oh-so-hilarious accoutrements were designed to deride John Kerry's honorable service in Vietnam, and Morton handed them out with the message, "It was just a self-inflicted scratch, but you see I got a Purple Heart for it." But isn't this incredibly offensive to any veteran who won a Purple Heart? Not according to Republican bigwigs such as Newt Gingrich who declared on ABC, "I think it's funny." So for all those who volunteered to join the military and won the Purple Heart for wounds received during combat, please remember - the Republican party thinks you're a bunch of pussies who deserve nothing more than their undying contempt.

The patch is on this Southern Bell's chin. What a disgrace to all who have been maimed in war. What a cracker hat!

[DIVERTOM]

Our Vice President's daughter is a lesbian, I hope he enjoys his time with
her here because the Republican's view is she will burn in hell for this. And
he is going to heaven. What a joke!

[jackpine savage]

You guys are beginning to go over the top. John Kennedy Jr, died in a plane accident. Sure he was an inexperienced pilot and it was a tragedy but it wasn't murder or anything along those lines. It was a tragedy and people died.

[bgbill]

Our Vice President's daughter is a lesbian, I hope he enjoys his time with
her here because the Republican's view is she will burn in hell for this. And
he is going to heaven. What a joke!

What do you have against homosexual's? :rolleyes:

Homeosexual's will not burn in hell, where do you get this from? :confused:

[bgbill]

You guys are beginning to go over the top. John Kennedy Jr, died in a plane accident. Sure he was an inexperienced pilot and it was a tragedy but it wasn't murder or anything along those lines. It was a tragedy and people died.

I never said JFK Jr. murdered anyone, it was his fault that the plane crashed and he was not IFR rated.

Laura Bush when she was 17 years old had a car accident, that killed her boyfriend, she stuck around, unlike Ted Kennedy, who left the scene of the accident.

I don't see the outcry against Divertom posting the Laura Bush story.

[DIVERTOM]

Having lived in Italy for ten years and any Italian can tell you this hand
gesture means "Your wife has been infidel and everyone in the neighborhood
knows except you" The ultimate insault. Does she know somethong we don't
thats his daughter.

[junior]

Having lived in Italy for ten years and any Italian can tell you this hand
gesture means "Your wife has been infidel and everyone in the neighborhood
knows except you" The ultimate insault. Does she know somethong we don't
thats his daughter.

Dude, you ever been to Texas??

hook em horns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_'em_Horns)

[bgbill]

Having lived in Italy for ten years and any Italian can tell you this hand
gesture means "Your wife has been infidel and everyone in the neighborhood
knows except you" The ultimate insault. Does she know somethong we don't
thats his daughter.

Are you accusing Laura Bush of being an infidel?

I just asked my wife about it, she is Italian, and has no clue what you are talking about.

Where was this picture taken?

That looks like the sign the Aggies use.

[junior]

Are you accusing Laura Bush of being an infidel?

I just asked my wife about it, she is Italian, and has no clue what you are talking about.

Where was this picture taken?

That looks like the sign the Aggies use.

Not Texas A&M, it's UT's.

[DIVERTOM]

Dude have you ever been to Texas? Why matter of fact I drove all the way
across Texas once.and never plan on doing it again you see I'm from
Steelers territory back in the day when our football team"Iron Curtain"
kicked your "Steer and Queers asses": get my point. I don't like you.

[junior]

Dude have you ever been to Texas? Why matter of fact I drove all the way
across Texas once.and never plan on doing it again you see I'm from
Steelers territory back in the day when our football team"Iron Curtain"
kicked your "Steer and Queers asses": get my point. I don't like you.

Nevermind...

Another one of your obscure movie quotes?:D

[bgbill]

Dude have you ever been to Texas? Why matter of fact I drove all the way
across Texas once.and never plan on doing it again you see I'm from
Steelers territory back in the day when our football team"Iron Curtain"
kicked your "Steer and Queers asses": get my point. I don't like you.

Never been to Texas, but a client of mine was from Texas and he used to use the sign, apparently I got confused on the sign, whats the big deal? :rolleyes:

[DIVERTOM]

I think I made him mad. The two fingers is the sign of the horn which
which means "Cornuto" in Italian. In Texas it means in the ass.

[DIVERTOM]

. land of steers and queers 15 up, 3 down

just about any Western state

"only steers and queers come from Texas private cowboy, and you don't much look like a steer to me so that kinda narrows it down" Full Metal Jacket 1987

[bgbill]

I think I made him mad. The two fingers is the sign of the horn which
which means "Cornuto" in Italian. In Texas it means in the ass.

:confused:

That reminds me of this one. ;)

[DIVERTOM]

LOL Ok Bill let us in on this.

[DIVERTOM]

Now we are getting out of line,

[bgbill]

Now we are getting out of line,

Be careful what you ask for :D :D

[DIVERTOM]

New news. something more enlightening.


Chelsea Clinton joins New York hedge fund

Former first daughter Chelsea Clinton has joined Avenue Capital Group, a $12 billion hedge fund manager whose founder has contributed to many Democratic Party campaigns, a person familiar with the matter said on Friday.

Question. how come this family has found more opportunities in New York
then their state of Arkansas?

[bgbill]

New news. something more enlightening.


Chelsea Clinton joins New York hedge fund

Former first daughter Chelsea Clinton has joined Avenue Capital Group, a $12 billion hedge fund manager whose founder has contributed to many Democratic Party campaigns, a person familiar with the matter said on Friday.

Question. how come this family has found more opportunities in New York
then their state of Arkansa?

I hope she does well, I feel sorry for the kid, what kind of normal life has she had with Bill and Hillary as parents?

One thing that has always bothered me is when people satrt making fun of politicians kids, it's not their fault what their parents do.

[DIVERTOM]

I feel some kindness in that statement. I'm a Democrat and I have never
been unkind to anyone I can remember and thats what I think about us.
To understand would be to be familiar with our old attachment to the
immigrants from Europe, the first generation. We helped each other and
ate and worked together. The Dems used this in generating a middle class
and everyone was included no matter where, North or South, East or West, black or white. Whats degrading is to watch the errosion of our middle class and hear working people agree that this is the right course. Is the Republican party working for us?

[DIVERTOM]

Now heres where both should be interested in.

Family unity
Fair Pay for hard work.
Good education available for everyone
Equal treatment everywhere

Another one, when you make the big money then share with your populas
Remember Carnegie "excuse where he's from" but you go to a free library
because of him. They don't in most other countries.

[DIVERTOM]

Where's Bret? He talked Cliff to sleep but not me! LOL

[bgbill]

I feel some kindness in that statement. I'm a Democrat and I have never
been unkind to anyone I can remember and thats what I think about us.
To understand would be to be familiar with our old attachment to the
immigrants from Europe, the first generation. We helped each other and
ate and worked together. The Dems used this in generating a middle class
and everyone was included no matter where, North or South, East or West, black or white. Whats degrading is to watch the errosion of our middle class and hear working people agree that this is the right course. Is the Republican party working for us?

I am more aligned with the Republican Party than the Democratic Party, but to be honest, neither one of them are working for us, they are only in it to enrich themselves and their friends.

Politicians were never meant to be full time jobs, spanning decades.

Why is it everytime you turn around there is a new tax, a new social program, a new law, a new fine, etc.?

[jfjf]

I am more aligned with the Republican Party than the Democratic Party, but to be honest, neither one of them are working for us, .?


Then it is only logical to vote all the repubicans OUT. It will scare them and also teach the democrats about abusing their power.

[bgbill]

Now heres where both should be interested in.

Family unity
Fair Pay for hard work.
Good education available for everyone
Equal treatment everywhere

Another one, when you make the big money then share with your populas
Remember Carnegie "excuse where he's from" but you go to a free library
because of him. They don't in most other countries.

The Library isn't Free, look at your property tax bill.

For what I spend a year on the library, from the property taxes I pay on my house in Plant City, I could buy all of the books my kids ever wanted to read from the library.

[bgbill]

Then it is only logical to vote all the repubicans OUT. It will scare them and also teach the democrats about abusing their power.

Voting them out will not do anything, unfortunately.

[jackpine savage]

Here in MA the property tax also goes to paying for our school system. Actually its the main source of revenue for our hospitals, police, fire, etc... One tax where I see how my money is being spent

[jackpine savage]

Voting them out will not do anything, unfortunately.
How about a coup :D

[bgbill]

Here in MA the property tax also goes to paying for our school system. Actually its the main source of revenue for our hospitals, police, fire, etc... One tax where I see how my money is being spent

A lot of the money from the property tax is being used for the school system, as well as other things, there are more than 13 line items on the property tax bill.

I am paying $221 to the Library system for 2007, and $91 to the Transit Authority, I don't use the library or the bus line, yet I am paying for it.

This is only on one of my houses, I still haven't sold my other house, and am still paying property tax on that one as well.

[DIVERTOM]

Do you think money spent on the library is unwise and don't you use it.
What would you rather spend that money on? Do you read at all. This
is not a put down but a question.

[jackpine savage]

And I have never used the fire department or the hospital yet I am paying for them, its called being part of a commnity. You have children don't they use the library?

[DIVERTOM]

Reasons Behind Andrew Carnegie's Millions to Libraries




Educational institutions are often founded on and influenced by philanthropy. One of the strongest examples of this is the founding of over two thousand Carnegie Libraries in Europe, the United States, and the English speaking world in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries. Just like other educational institutions, the Carnegie Libraries were influenced heavily by the world around them. The strongest influence came from the source of the money, Andrew Carnegie, who had very strong feelings as to why these libraries were needed including his belief in an America that was a meritocracy and that his libraries would benefit immigrants.

[bgbill]

Do you think money spent on the library is unwise and don't you use it.
What would you rather spend that money on? Do you read at all. This
is not a put down but a question.


I really don't mind it, I do read, but I usually just buy my books, although I have used the library in the past.


And I have never used the fire department or the hospital yet I am paying for them, its called being part of a commnity. You have children don't they use the library?

The Fire department and the Police Department actually provide a service whether you actually use them directly or or not.

Yes I understand about being a part of a community, and my kids don't use the library, but they do use the library at school, which is funded seperately.

[surfinsd2]

Some reasons not to vote for either blood-sucking party:

The top 1% wealthiest peoples have roughly %33 of the U.S. wealth.
The top 5% have almost 80% of the wealth.
The wealth distibution in the U.S. is the most skewed of any first world country, and continually growing worse.

Both parties **** 95% of the people over, and it's time we made a change. You don't have to settle, argue over, or fight for parties and people that screw Americans over. I don't know who, what, or when the answer is, but I know it's not a donkey or an elephant.

[DIVERTOM]

Thats the reason we should encourage everyone to vote. The politicians
have it to easy as we have just seen with Kerry. He should have been
brought back to congress and grilled on what he said and made an example.
I pay taxes and I don't pay taxes for this behavior and I don't care if he is
a Dem. or Rep. They work for me as I pay taxes and they live off them.
Thats what wrong as there is too much free money to influence these
people, they don't care what they do and just try to get an office for the
power and prestige.

[bgbill]

Thats the reason we should encourage everyone to vote. The politicians
have it to easy as we have just seen with Kerry. He should have been
brought back to congress and grilled on what he said and made an example.
I pay taxes and I don't pay taxes for this behavior and I don't care if he is
a Dem. or Rep. They work for me as I pay taxes and they live off them.
Thats what wrong as there is too much free money to influence these
people, they don't care what they do and just try to get an office for the
power and prestige.

I can't believe I agree with a Democrat. :D :D :D

I do not vote strictly along party lines as some people do, I have and will vote for the best candidate in the race.

Well except when I voted against Kerry, in that case, I thought Bush was the lesser of 2 evils (not much less) so I didn't really vote for him as much as I voted against Kerry.

Unfortunately the guys who would make good and decent politicians are too smart to run, however we do get a decent one on occassion.

[NOTANX]

they are all the same. there are so many different cultures and personalities in this country. you cant make everyone happy. clinton deployed troops and americans lost lives. bush deployed troops and americans lost lives. bush snorted. clinton inhaled.they could both do no right by the other parties. they both do stupid stuff. it seems that when a democrat gets caught people (the media) are quick to forgive. when the republican gets caught doing something stupid, its the end of the world. this is coming from someone who is not affiliated in any way with either party. i just think the best man should win and be equally accountable. i dont think a good honest man would be the type of person to run for president and if he won, dont think he would last long.

[DIVERTOM]

Bret
I'm a workocrat. I have worked many hours overtime for pay and not.
The taxes still go. You would be surprised to hear my views as do my
bosses, they have never encountered someone like me. I have worked
a thousand hours overtime paid for the military and for my employees.
I have have seen lazy Dems abuse sick time and lazy Reps come to work
and do nothing. I accept neither. I say put America back to work and pay
good. Respect each other at home and work and we must weigh the fact
if we want to be a world power or a nation who works for America.

[DIVERTOM]

Every year we go through the month of August, I ask you why?
It was named after a Roman Emperor, but it was a time of Pax Romano.
Heres a person in charge of the whole Western Empire that when he sent
his legions into battle he slept on a rock and ate the same food as they did
so he could imagine what they went through for him and his country. I
ask you, do you you see the same from our leaders. Don't make me laugh.

[mnguy]

Every year we go through the month of August, I ask you why?
It was named after a Roman Emperor, but it was a time of Pax Romano.
Heres a person in charge of the whole Western Empire that when he sent
his legions into battle he slept on a rock and ate the same food as they did
so he could imagine what they went through for him and his country. I
ask you, do you you see the same from our leaders. Don't make me laugh.

:yup: I say we take any politician who voted for the war and draft them and their children of age and send em in, since enlistment is down as per the other thread. :D

To me, a leader has to be able to earn the respect of those who follow him by setting the example. Take football for example. I hate the quarterbacks who take a slide or dive whenever they are going to get hit, gaining fewer yards. It seems unrespectable to ask everyone else to get slammed around and then not taake your licks when the time comes. On the other side of the coin, I root for and have respect for the quarterbacks who will keep on running and get that extra 4 or 5 yards before getting hit. I don't think that having the president on the front lines of the war will really help anything, but I do think that sending the military aged kids of the politicians who voted for it would be a good way to gain the respect of the American people. It might possibly get enlistment up too, since the average person could see that even the leaders are putting something huge on the line for their country and putting their money where their mouths are.

[Bill McIntyre]

What Office does he hold?

Is he running for any office as a Republican?

One story said he was part of conference calls with either the President or his staff every Monday morning. He may not have held office or been running, but it sounds like he was influential.

Sorry to break the continuity of the thread, but you guys got so far ahead while I was asleep.

[Bill McIntyre]

I just ran across this nice Freudian explanation of why Haggert, Foley, and the GOP preach so much against the vices they can't shake.
__________________________________________________ __

In the latest sign of rank hypocrisy among social conservatives, the president of the 30-million member National Association of Evangelicals has resigned amidst accusations that he had a relationship with a male prostitute. Ted Haggard, who is married with five children, is a frequent adviser to the White House, and a staunch advocate of banning marriage rights for gays and lesbians.

The news, of course, comes just a month after Florida GOP Congressman, Mark Foley, who had pushed legislation to protect youth from "exploitation by adults using the internet," was revealed to be an internet sexual predator. And it adds to the sense among weary voters that their leaders, especially if they happen to be Republicans, cannot be trusted to do the right thing. Indeed, the chairman of the National Republican Congressional Committee acknowledged he had been aware of Foley's inappropriate emails for months, but took no steps to protect the children who were in harm's way. Instead, he spearheaded a series of TV ads attacking a Democratic challenger for, yes, being soft on child molesters.

What are we to make of a reigning conservative regime that lists the following inglorious claims to fame: Strom Thurmond, a notoriously racist senator who turned out to have a black lover; a Republican indictment of President Clinton's sexual license headed up by a team of philanderers; a Congress full of divorces passing an anti-gay law known as the "Defense of Marriage Act"? In the pundit corner, we recently saw three giants of conservative moralizing unmasked as incapable of restraining their own vices: William Bennett turned out to be addicted to gambling, Rush Limbaugh to drugs. Meanwhile, Ralph Reed, the hand-picked youthful leader of the religious right, was quietly helping the corrupt lobbyist, Jack Abramoff, enable everything that religious conservatives oppose: casinos on Indian reservations and compelled abortions and sex slavery in the Northern Mariana Islands, an American territory. And this is not even to mention the Catholic Church's strident indictment of sexual freedom as it shuffled its own cadre of child-molesting priests from parish to parish.

The cover-ups and power grabs, of course, are simply raw politics. But the pattern here may reveal something more striking than the obvious reality that those in power will sacrifice almost anything to stay there. The Republican Party appears to be chock full of people who make a life of preaching against the very vices they can't shake. Why?

For answers to the puzzles that seem to infest the conservative worldview, we might dust off our old Freud texts. From the father of psychoanalysis, we learn the concept of "reaction formation" which describes how we react to our own unacceptable impulses. Reaction formation is a classic "defense mechanism"-an unconscious behavior designed to ward off uncomfortable feelings. Sometimes we react to our discomfort with ourselves in harmless ways, such as when a man cheats on his wife and brings her flowers to ease his guilt. Other times, the reactions can be punitive-we judge and condemn others who exhibit the very impulses that we, ourselves, cannot control. This is frequently the case when dealing with lust or greed. "Sooner or later," writes Michael Warner, a Professor of English at Rutgers and a leading theorist of sexuality and politics, "we all lose control over our sex life. As a result, we try to control someone else's sex life."

Reaction formation is one of the few explanations that help us make sense of all the hypocritical moralizing: the preachers are preaching to themselves!

What is the solution to this misplaced effort to restrict others' behavior? For Freud, it was therapy. But more broadly, it's a dose of introspection, an ability to look inward, and to shift focus from others' behavior to our own. If hypocrisy in American political life is, in part, a symptom of inadequate introspection, if our fear that we can't control ourselves leads to an unconscious effort to control others, we'll continue to reach for a magnifying glass when what we really need is a mirror.

Republicans have no monopoly on hypocrisy. Most of us are guilty, at one time or another, of vocally denouncing something we ourselves have done, of shifting focus away from our own foibles by hoisting them onto others. But a Party with a peculiar penchant for condemning in others what they can't overcome in themselves is a Party resting on shaky ground, especially if it professes self-control as a cornerstone of its governing philosophy. Social conservatives must be called on their hypocrisy, not simply as a matter of justice, but so that Americans can fully understand the roots and impact of the politics of moral judgment. Virtue, it's true, is necessary to a healthy democracy; but it begins inside.

[grouper567]

hey Dems

remember to vote wednesday

[Bill McIntyre]

We voted absentee a week ago so Diebold couldn't screw with our votes.

[bgbill]

Bill,

Foley (R) resigned, Mel Reynolds (D) did not, yet Mel actually had sex with a 16 year old, not just dirty e-mails.

Gerry Studds (D) was censured for having sex with pages, yet he was given a standing ovation later by his democratic friends, he didn't resign.

What did the Democrats do to protect children in the Mel Reynolds, and Gerry Studds case?


It sure is amazing how hypocrytical the Democrats are, anything something happens in the republican party there is an outcry for the offender to resign, if the democrats had it their way, there wouldn't be any republicans.

When Rush made factual statements about Michael J Fox, for 10 days that is practically all the news media and democrats would talk about, when John Kerry said if you didn't go to school, you would end up in Iraq, he later tried to say it was a slam against George W., but the truth is, George W. had better grades than Kerry, so who is the dummy in that case?

Yet the media and the democrats tried to make excuses for Kerry, and when the republicans complained about Kerry's satement, they were accused of attacking Kerry.

All politicians suck, sometimes there are decent ones who come along, but not often.

[Bill McIntyre]

Bret,

Republicans certainly don't have a monopöly on sleaze-bags. But I think its still fair to point out that they are the people claiming moral superiority as the basis for leadership, and they don't walk the walk any better than Democrats. Its Republicans that claim to be on the side of God and call the other party a bunch of moral cripples, so its only fair to point out how they are wrong.

Republicans have no monopoly on hypocrisy. Most of us are guilty, at one time or another, of vocally denouncing something we ourselves have done, of shifting focus away from our own foibles by hoisting them onto others. But a Party with a peculiar penchant for condemning in others what they can't overcome in themselves is a Party resting on shaky ground, especially if it professes self-control as a cornerstone of its governing philosophy.

[bgbill]

Bret,

Republicans certainly don't have a monopöly on sleaze-bags. But I think its still fair to point out that they are the people claiming moral superiority as the basis for leadership, and they don't walk the walk any better than Democrats. Its Republicans that claim to be on the side of God and call the other party a bunch of moral cripples, so its only fair to point out how they are wrong.

Being on the side of god, does not make one perfect, we are all sinners.

So I guess from what you are saying, the democrats get a free pass, while the republicans are being held to a higher standard? :rolleyes:

[jackpine savage]

There are scumbags in both parties, there are few decent people but a lot fewer than years ago. To me it looks like politics is attracting people who want something from it rather than doing it out of a sense of public service. Look how many politicians, Republicans and Democrats who become lobbyists as soon as they leave office. No ownder they are held in such disregard, they feel that they are entitled to enrich themselves after a few years of public service. It is rare these days when a politician retires and goes home and leads a normal life, now they all want to become consultants or lobbyists and make millions. It is a disgrace

[Bill McIntyre]

So I guess from what you are saying, the democrats get a free pass, while the republicans are being held to a higher standard? :rolleyes:

No, what I am saying is that Democrats don't claim to have a special mandate from God to govern, and claim that Republicans are all moral derelicts, while Republicans make those claims against Democrats. If Republicans claim that they are using a higher standard, it should be pointed out when its not true.

In particular, Democrats are not claiming that gays are evil and fighting against equal treatment under the laws for gays.

So if a Democrat who speaks to the President on a conference call every week turns out to be gay, he was not a hypocrite. But since Haggert was claiming that gays are evil and that they should not be permitted to marry, when it turns out that he is gay, that is hypocricy.

[bgbill]

Bill,

I never said Haggert wasn't a hypocrite, I am glad he was ousted.

Will you answer my question as to why the statements Rush made about MJF are newsworthy for 10 days, yet when Kerry, who is an elected official, says that if you are smart and go to school you will do well, if not you end up in Iraq, the media makes excuses for the guy?

Rush is not an elected official, he has a talk show, he is an entertainer.

[bgbill]

There are scumbags in both parties, there are few decent people but a lot fewer than years ago. To me it looks like politics is attracting people who want something from it rather than doing it out of a sense of public service. Look how many politicians, Republicans and Democrats who become lobbyists as soon as they leave office. No ownder they are held in such disregard, they feel that they are entitled to enrich themselves after a few years of public service. It is rare these days when a politician retires and goes home and leads a normal life, now they all want to become consultants or lobbyists and make millions. It is a disgrace

I think once you are a politician, you should never be a lobbyist, or maybe a 10 year period beginning your last day in office, to when you can be a lobbyist.

[jackpine savage]

Bill,

I never said Haggert wasn't a hypocrite, I am glad he was ousted.

Will you answer my question as to why the statements Rush made about MJF are newsworthy for 10 days, yet when Kerry, who is an elected official, says that if you are smart and go to school you will do well, if not you end up in Iraq, the media makes excuses for the guy?

Rush is not an elected official, he has a talk show, he is an entertainer.
Two reasons, first Kerry was bashed pretty hard for his stupid comments, secondly he apologized pretty quickly within a day or two so it went away. Had he not apologized it would still be going on.

[bgbill]

Two reasons, first Kerry was bashed pretty hard for his stupid comments, secondly he apologized pretty quickly within a day or two so it went away. Had he not apologized it would still be going on.

Kerry sort of apologized, but he didn't really, much like he was for the war, before he was against it.

Rush did not do anything wrong, he quoted MJF from MJF's book and interviews.

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill,
Will you answer my question as to why the statements Rush made about MJF are newsworthy for 10 days, yet when Kerry, who is an elected official, says that if you are smart and go to school you will do well, if not you end up in Iraq, the media makes excuses for the guy?

Rush is not an elected official, he has a talk show, he is an entertainer.

Its pretty simple for me. When I heard Kerry, even without seeing the prepared text, it was obvious to me that he was talking about Bush rather than the troops. And then the text was released, showing that he meant to say something like "you'll end up like Bush, stuck in Iraq" rather than "you'll end up stuck in Iraq.

I think that if you are honest with yourself rather than just playing gotcha, you'll admit that no matter how evil he is, he would never have been stupid enough to call the troops dumb and uneducated. Of course I happen to think that he wouldn't have felt that way in the first place, because no matter how the guys who never served have managed to Swift Boat him, the fact is that he actually was on river boats and saw combat with these guys.

So the bottom line for me was that he left out a word in a prepared speech. Yes, the draft evaders in the White House jumped on it as I would expect them to, but I still thought it was just a very poorly timed honest mistake.

On the other hand, Rush was being absolutely evil, belittling someone with a fatal disease and claiming he was faking symptoms. It doesn't matter at all that he is not an elected official. He always tries to cop out when the heat gets too intense and claim he is just an entertainer, but the fact is that there are a bunch of nut jobs that hang on his every word as if it came straight from God. When he ****s up, he should be called on it.

[Bill McIntyre]

I think once you are a politician, you should never be a lobbyist, or maybe a 10 year period beginning your last day in office, to when you can be a lobbyist.

We have found something to agree on.

[bgbill]

Bill,

Kerry is an elitist, who has made similiar type statements several years ago, so his thoughts haven't changed much.

What exactly has Kerry done as a Senator? plaese name some worthwhile bills he sponsored or co sponsored.

If Kerry is so smart and Bush is so stupid, why did Bush get better grades than Kerry and why did Bush get elected 2 times as President?

MJF enetered the political arena, and he expects a free pass, when he will either go off his meds, or iver medicate for effect, he has admitted he does this, how is Rush belittling MJF?

[jackpine savage]

Kerry an elitist? c'mon just because he and his wife bought an English 15th century farm house, had it carefully dismantled and shipped to Sun Valley and carefully rebuilt in one of the most exclusive areas in the country doesn't make him an elitist. You probably think that because his 3rd home is a waterfront home on Nantucket and is worth millions makes him out of touch, or could it possibly be the multi-million dollar brownstone on Beacon Hill. I think these things bring him closer to the working man because it takes an army of them to maintain all these homes :D

[Mako993]

Three words for everyone here - MANDATORY TERM LIMITS!

IMHO, what Kerry said last week is a reflection of what we get when we don't implement them. Entrenched careerists who make a living of manipulating society, and sworn to represent the people who supposedly voted for them. Please pardon my disgustive attitude, but we've needed a change in this country for some time now.

This isn't limited to Democrat or Republican, but politicians as they've become and as we see them. Granted, there are some folks who want to make a difference and some good politicans, so to speak, who come to mind. If it was up to me, I'd prefer John McCain in the White House for starters, but for no more than 2 years. Congressmen and Senators should have terms of 1 year, and you shouldn't have to have influence to get elected.

As Lord Action once quoted, "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." From where I am here outside of Washington DC, it's the lobbyists who have the real power and run the politicans from their pockets.

[Bill McIntyre]

[QUOTE=Mako993]Three words for everyone here - MANDATORY TERM LIMITS!

QUOTE]

We have them in California, and a lot of people think they have been a disaster. With state Assemblymen not being in power long enough to learn their jobs and learn how to get things done, they are just more reliant on their staffs and lobbyists to write law. In particular, the Speaker, who should really be savvy and know how to get make things happen, is a comparative babe in the woods in the job and then is gone.

We also have many politicians being termed out of one office and then just running for another one. A guy who was once Speaker of the Assembly running for Attorney General, and so forth.

[Wayward Son]

Unintended consequences. Just as each round of campaign finance laws has created new avenues to play the system, CA's term limits has caused their pols to find new ways to be dealt into the game.

I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of term limits for federal offices, but it may prove to be very difficult to actually accomplish the desired goal of putting an end to lifetime careers at the public trough.

[Mako993]

We have to do something and start somewhere...The "system" as we know it has to be changed to serve "We the People" once again instead of the self-serving.

[Wayward Son]

If I had the power, I'd take the whole re-election thing out. Restructure it entirely. Make the president a single 6 year term. Congress a single 4 year term, the senate a single 6 year term.

Once you win, there's no more fund raising or campaign concerns for you. Do your term & out. The people who have to fund & run a campaign would be those who are not in office, so they don't have that looming over them while on the job.

And the would not be able to start a campaign for a different office until they're actually out of the current one, which would force a 2 year gap between the 2 if, say, a congressman wanted to run for a senate seat. He would not be allowed to run for the senate seat during his last year in office, he'd have to wait until the next election.

[lens]

:D :D :rolleyes:

http://www.bartcop.com/rumsfeld_saddam.jpg



http://freedomrider.blogspot.com/cheney%20debate.gif

[lens]

If I had the power, I'd take the whole re-election thing out. Restructure it entirely. Make the president a single 6 year term. Congress a single 4 year term, the senate a single 6 year term.

Once you win, there's no more fund raising or campaign concerns for you. Do your term & out. The people who have to fund & run a campaign would be those who are not in office, so they don't have that looming over them while on the job.

And the would not be able to start a campaign for a different office until they're actually out of the current one, which would force a 2 year gap between the 2 if, say, a congressman wanted to run for a senate seat. He would not be allowed to run for the senate seat during his last year in office, he'd have to wait until the next elections.

Those are great ideas. :thumps:

Another route would be to get rid of all these damn TV ads, and put a serious cap on campaign funds. Not donations, because that obviously is easily worked around. But a total of how much a campaign can use. And it all has to come from in their state, no outside funding.

This would also help a third party raise funds and compete in certain elections. There is no need to waste 10 million dollars on a senate campaign. Make it like a max of 1 Million and the rest of their campaigning has to be done by stumping. This will show us how bad they want to win if they actually have to get off their ass and campaign. And it will prove how fiscally responsible they are. I think all Politicians right now see Tax dollars and donations as a “Money Tree.” Never ending growing fruit.

Also, outside affiliates cannot attack candidates, they can only endorse. This is just a way for candidates to pass the sleaze off.

And all candidates whether Rep, Dem, Green, Reform, and yes even Socialist have to hold a debate the weekend before the election. No negative statements, just state WTF they stand for. And they will all lay out there plan for their term. These are not national debates, but rather held locally and broadcast locally. We will make it a national Holiday so the people who want to watch will be able to. Every local station will handle there local campaign throughout the US.

I do not know if any of you saw the Fl. Governor debate. But Chris Mathews did a good job of calling BS on all of them.

[Mako993]

We're getting somewhere now. Maybe 2 years Senate and Congress and NMT 4 years for President and have multi-party debates and elections over the course of a week's time, with, as Wayward Son said, a national holiday for debate day. This way, ALL the candidates from all the parties that people have elected get to have their say over the course of an entire day, not just an hour or so on a weeknight. An actual knowledge and factual debate, not a popularity and image contest. Americans are in love with brevity and categorization, and absolutely hate complex, intellectual issues. That's why newspapers & movies are so popular here in deciding what the un-educated think :O It goes so far as to decide our leadership, unfortunately. No, we won't have lack of information, but rather more REAL and USEFUL information towards deciding who gets to be in charge of this nation - WE, and nobody else, ultimately.

A system would be set up so each political party that wants to send a candidate to debate can, instead of the current system with influence and campaign contributions only. We want to see candidates from each of these parties debating and travelling around the country, and a limited, capped campaign warchest would be contributed by the American people so they can each do it, until the money is gone. After it is, that's it. No fundraising, no edging one party out over another because of financial influence. In other words, we first fund and get to hear and see everybody, not just this or that party of our choosing. In the end, we will still vote the same way, but we'll have more choice and more control over our future.

[Wayward Son]

We were originally structured so that the house represented us & the senate represented the states. We amended to BOR to make the senate be popularly elected & that had a major change. Used to be the states appointed senators & the people voted for congress. Now we vote for both & the senate no longer does what it was designed to do. I would not be opposed to going back to having the state legislatures pick the senators, maybe then the 10th amendment would start to mean something again.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

How about not letting the party's strong arm their members into voting as a block. it is one thing to hold back support but now senate and house leaders blatantly threaten members who don't vote their part line. this should be treated the same as interfering with a private citizens vote.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

I would be much more inclined to vote for a Democrat if it were not a vote for Nancy Pilosi or powers from some other state

[jeffcroci]

I know its all wishfull thinking, but theres to much money involved (root of all evil) if any polititian could make say no more than 85k per year while in office, and 65k /year for the rest of their lives, this world would be amuch better place. but like I said wishfull thinking

jeff

[bilnitro]

http://www.spearboard.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40936&stc=1

[Bill McIntyre]

There is a lot of overlap here with suggestions already made, but I need to get to bed so I can start the long journey home tomorrow.

I think the two problems to be addressed are the power of incumbency and the power of money.

The party in power in a state gerrymanders congressional districts so they are safe for the party's candidates. Often times, at least in CA, the minority pary has even gone along with it, getting some safe districts for itself in turn for giving the other party safe districts.

If I recall correctly, the Tom DeLay engineered gerrymandering of Texas gave the GOP 15 new seats.

Incumbency overlaps with money. An incumbant can give favors and make promises and raise huge amounts of money for a campaign. And money provides a huge advantage in paying for media ads.

As a result of all that, a huge majority of incumbents are reelected. Once you get in, its very hard to kick you out.

So very briefly_

1. How about some independent panel, perhaps of retired judges, drawing district lines in some sort of fair fashion rather than letting it be done by elected officials.

2. And then how about public financing of campaigns, with each candidate who meets some sort of criterion getting an equal amount of money, with contributions from PACs, lobbists, and individuals being prohibited.

I know there are all sorts of devils in the details, but this might be a start.

[Mako993]

I did touch upon your second point previously, and like you said we have some overlap already, Bill, but we're on the right track insomuch as money and incumbency are the big problems - too much $ = too much influence. Our system has been corrupted to death, or beaten down by, special interests. You make a good point when you say that politicians in office hand out favors. Instead of handing out favors, they should be working for us, the people who should be electing them.

An independing panel of judges is a very good idea, rather than somebody's lapdogs creating the districting.





There is a lot of overlap here with suggestions already made, but I need to get to bed so I can start the long journey home tomorrow.

I think the two problems to be addressed are the power of incumbency and the power of money.

The party in power in a state gerrymanders congressional districts so they are safe for the party's candidates. Often times, at least in CA, the minority pary has even gone along with it, getting some safe districts for itself in turn for giving the other party safe districts.

If I recall correctly, the Tom DeLay engineered gerrymandering of Texas gave the GOP 15 new seats.

Incumbency overlaps with money. An incumbant can give favors and make promises and raise huge amounts of money for a campaign. And money provides a huge advantage in paying for media ads.

As a result of all that, a huge majority of incumbents are reelected. Once you get in, its very hard to kick you out.

So very briefly_

1. How about some independent panel, perhaps of retired judges, drawing district lines in some sort of fair fashion rather than letting it be done by elected officials.

2. And then how about public financing of campaigns, with each candidate who meets some sort of criterion getting an equal amount of money, with contributions from PACs, lobbists, and individuals being prohibited.

I know there are all sorts of devils in the details, but this might be a start.

[Spleen]

Here's a hard choice to make Harris or Nelson. Unless you agree with her
actions.

Katherine Harris: "if you're not electing Christians then in essence you are going to legislate sin". That made up my mind for me.

[NOTANX]

I know its all wishfull thinking, but theres to much money involved (root of all evil) if any polititian could make say no more than 85k per year while in office, and 65k /year for the rest of their lives, this world would be amuch better place. but like I said wishfull thinking

jeff
i fully agree with that one!!

i dont know much about politics, however, i would think that a long single term would not be such a good idea. if a man is elected into a position and knows that it doesnt matter whether he does a good job or shity one, he's out either way, wouldnt that allow him to slack off a little bit? wheres the incentive to do a good job? i think that would take the presure off him a little too much. i say add the pressure to do the right things. maybe a probationary period and performance based salary raises? i could be way off!

[mnguy]

Lets just make voting American Idol style. Shit, more people vote for American Idol than they do for the presidency. We could have a show on election day with debates from the various candidates for X office and then a song and dance number and then have people call, text or email in their votes. The government could issue unique IDs and passwords for the election. We could also have all the numbers for the votes coming up on the screen in real time, so fencesitters will have an easier time deciding. Who knows, we may just get record voter turnout.

[ScubaSteve]

#11 I'm tired of all the automated phone calls bashing republican candidates.

Jeeze TV is enough I wish they would not invade my home with their unwelcome phone calls. We need a do not call list for politicians, polling companys and charities. I know who I'm voting for, I don't want to participate in your 2 minute poll and I already have my charities I support. :)

[Marcus]

I would not be opposed to going back to having the state legislatures pick the senators.

It was changed due to rampant corruption. Why would you want a system that invites corruption?

[WreckDiver]

It was changed due to rampant corruption. Why would you want a system that invites corruption?



Was it more than what we currently have?

[Wayward Son]

Well, what we changed it to broke the way the system was designed to work. Got a better idea? I'm open to hearing it. I can't say that I'm convinced the senate is free of corruption in its present form.

[DIVERTOM]

Should be an interesting day tomorrow.

[CWitch]

Here are my reasons for voting Republican;

1) I want my homestead exemption increased to $50,000.

2) I want my homestead exemption portable.

3) I want to keep the tax cuts I received from the Republican president.

4) I don't want any more of my money going to pay for entitlement programs that foster socially irresponsible behavior.

5) I don't think we should grow kids in a lab so we can kill them to help Michael J Fox stop shaking.

6) I don't care if my government watches what web sites I go to, where I travel or what's in my trunk as long as they keep those damn people from blowing up the mall when my family is shopping there.

7) I am against anything that Californians support.


Do the right thing and vote Republican.

[jackpine savage]

[QUOTE=CWitch]

4) I don't want any more of my money going to pay for entitlement programs that foster socially irresponsible behavior.

Like rebuilding the Gulf region with my tax payer money on areas that will be wiped out with the next hurricane.

[chasintail]

Nice asshole,90% of the Gulf Coast that Katrina wiped out never had serious hurricane damage.

[QUOTE=CWitch]

4) I don't want any more of my money going to pay for entitlement programs that foster socially irresponsible behavior.

Like rebuilding the Gulf region with my tax payer money on areas that will be wiped out with the next hurricane.

[jackpine savage]

I was just illustrating a point didn't mean to upset you. I donated a lot of money through my work to the Salvation Army that went to the Gulf . We are all Americans, sometimes our tax money goes to someone else other than ourselves, sometimes it comes back to us. The point is we help one another out, Americans before Republican or Democrat.

[bgbill]

The problem with the hurricane is that a lot of people were not adequately insured, yet they still get taken care of the same as if they did pay for insurance.

Why should I bother to have insurance if the government is going to bail me out?

So in a way, it is a social program, the hurricane was not the irresponsible behavior though, it was the lack of preparation on many peoples part by not being adequately insured.

That is the way it is on the United States, something bad happens to you, and you get a check from the government.

Lack of planning on your part, does not constitute an emergency on my part.

[jfjf]

Things You Have to Believe to be a Republican Today:

1) Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary.

2) Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush's daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with him, and a bad guy when Bush needed a "We can't find Bin Laden" diversion.

3) Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is Communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital to a spirit of international harmony.

4) The United States should get out of the United Nations, and our highest national priority is enforcing U.N. resolutions against Iraq.

5) A woman can't be trusted with decisions about her own body but multi-national corporations can make decisions affecting all mankind without regulation.

6) The best way to improve military morale is to praise the troops in speeches, while slashing veterans' benefits and combat pay.

7) If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won't have sex.

8) A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our long-time allies, then demand their cooperation and money.

9) Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound policy, but providing
health care to all Americans is socialism.

10) HMO's and insurance companies have the best interests of the public at heart.

11) Global warming and tobacco's link to cancer are junk science, but creationism should be taught in schools.

12) A president lying about an extra-marital affair is an impeachable
offense, but a president lying to enlist support for a war in which thousands die is solid defense policy.

13) Government should limit itself to the powers named in the Constitution, which include banning gay marriages and censoring the Internet.

14) The public has a right to know about Hillary's cattle trades, but George Bush's driving record is none of our business.

15) Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime, unless you're a conservative radio host. Then it's an illness and you need our prayers for your recovery.

16) What Bill Clinton did in the 1960's is of vital national interest, but what Bush did in the '80's is irrelevant.

[CWitch]

Things You Have to Believe to be a Republican Today:

1) Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary.

2) Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush's daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with him, and a bad guy when Bush needed a "We can't find Bin Laden" diversion.

3) Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is Communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital to a spirit of international harmony.

4) The United States should get out of the United Nations, and our highest national priority is enforcing U.N. resolutions against Iraq.

5) A woman can't be trusted with decisions about her own body but multi-national corporations can make decisions affecting all mankind without regulation.

6) The best way to improve military morale is to praise the troops in speeches, while slashing veterans' benefits and combat pay.

7) If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won't have sex.

8) A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our long-time allies, then demand their cooperation and money.

9) Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound policy, but providing
health care to all Americans is socialism.

10) HMO's and insurance companies have the best interests of the public at heart.

11) Global warming and tobacco's link to cancer are junk science, but creationism should be taught in schools.

12) A president lying about an extra-marital affair is an impeachable
offense, but a president lying to enlist support for a war in which thousands die is solid defense policy.

13) Government should limit itself to the powers named in the Constitution, which include banning gay marriages and censoring the Internet.

14) The public has a right to know about Hillary's cattle trades, but George Bush's driving record is none of our business.

15) Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime, unless you're a conservative radio host. Then it's an illness and you need our prayers for your recovery.

16) What Bill Clinton did in the 1960's is of vital national interest, but what Bush did in the '80's is irrelevant.


My response:

1) Jesus doesn't hate homo's, he just doesn't condone their behavior. As for Hillary, I'll ask him what he thinks down the road.

2) Your right, the Dem's never use or exploit anyone.

3) Progress.

4) ?

5) We feel that a woman can make a choice about her own body...just not a choice about the body within her body.

6) Are you kidding me? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

7) Oh, I'm sorry for promoting my moral beliefs at high school by not providing a vital tool for non-consequencial sex.

8) Long time allies? Oh I'm sorry, you must be French?????

9) Yea..your right, I mean it works so well in Canada and Europe. How about telling your Democrat, freeloading, inner city, urban moochers to get jobs, stop having kids, get insurance and stop using the emergency room as a free, walk in clinic.

10) Refer to the last awnser.

11) WTF? Are you saying that Republicans question the dangers of tabacco use? Bullshit. I'm with you on that creation/evolution thing.

12) Ok, but I guess you have to buy into the fact they lied. Slick Willie definetly lied.

13) Yep. Unless you are ok with your son growing up thinking that it is ok and normal for him to have a penis shoved up his ass for the rest of his life. You can do whatever you want in your house, just don't ask America for our blessing.

14) America obviously knows about his driving record and he was still elected...twice.

15) I am a Republican and I don't feel that it is a moral failing. I think it is a crime. But your party thinks it is a disease and wants to give away SSI benefits because they call it a "disability".

16) Yep.

[flailer]

So does it really boil down to, if your rich your republican, if your poor your democrat, unless your in office.. It sounds like we need a hostile employee takeover, or wait aren't they supposed to work for us?

[bgbill]

So does it really boil down to, if your rich your republican, if your poor your democrat, unless your in office.. It sounds like we need a hostile employee takeover, or wait aren't they supposed to work for us?


If you work for a living, you are a Republican, if you don't you are a Democrat.

[flailer]

well i do work for a living, but dont agree with either party. but the crap of it is we cant vote for independent. although it may make a statement it doesnt accomplish anything. so the question remains how do you change the rules about the people that make the rules?!

[bgbill]

well i do work for a living, but dont agree with either party. but the crap of it is we cant vote for independent. although it may make a statement it doesnt accomplish anything. so the question remains how do you change the rules about the people that make the rules?!

That is the problem, no matter who you vote for, you are still screwed.

The only thing you can do, is try to figure out who will screw you the least, use KY or at least screw you with a smaller penis, either way, you are still going to get screwed.

[jackpine savage]

If you work for a living, you are a Republican, if you don't you are a Democrat.
Not only do I work for a living but I own my a small business and I think the Republican party is more full of sh*t than the Demcrats thats why I vote against them and for the Democrats

[chasintail]

[QUOTE=bgbill]The problem with the hurricane is that a lot of people were not adequately insured, yet they still get taken care of the same as if they did pay for insurance.

Do you live on a fault line Bret?Do you have earthquake insurance?

[bgbill]

Not only do I work for a living but I own my a small business and I think the Republican party is more full of sh*t than the Demcrats thats why I vote against them and for the Democrats

Not only do I work for a living and own a small business too, I think the democRATS are full of shit, that is why I vote Republican.

[bgbill]

[QUOTE=bgbill]The problem with the hurricane is that a lot of people were not adequately insured, yet they still get taken care of the same as if they did pay for insurance.

Do you live on a fault line Bret?Do you have earthquake insurance?

No I don't live on a fault line, nor do I carry earthquake insurance,I don't even know if my insurance company offers it, or if I would be covered, but if we get hit with an earthquake, I will deal with it.

There were people in N.O. that lived 9 feet below sea level, yet they did not carry flood insurance, when they had flood damage, they expected the insurance company to cover them, there are even lawyers trying to get a class action lawsuit against the insurance company's, because their clients refused to buy the proper insurance.

[chasintail]

News flash,New Orleans didn't get hit by a hurricane!!!!!!!!!!!We did.A whole lota people that were not in a flood zone lost thier homes to flood waters.I could give less than a sht about the city below sea level.

There were people in N.O. that lived 9 feet below sea level, yet they did not carry flood insurance, when they had flood damage, they expected the insurance company to cover them, there are even lawyers trying to get a class action lawsuit against the insurance company's, because their clients refused to buy the proper insurance.[/QUOTE]

[chuam]

If you work for a living, you are a Republican, if you don't you are a Democrat.

Yup, I sure don't work my ass off. I sit around and sip from the govt's teat.

Get real.

[chasintail]

Yup, I sure don't work my ass off. I sit around and sip from the govt's teat.

Get real.

I hear ya bro,In the immortal words of freedro "what a ****tard"

[roy_nexus_6]

another reason to vote republican.

================================================== =
Every movement has its moment of truth. At an "anti-war" teach-in at Columbia, Anthropology professor Nicholas De Genova told 3,000 students and faculty, "Peace is not patriotic. Peace is subversive, because peace anticipates a very different world than the one in which we live--a world where the U.S. would have no place."

================================================== ============

[chuam]

another reason to vote republican.

================================================== =
Every movement has its moment of truth. At an "anti-war" teach-in at Columbia, Anthropology professor Nicholas De Genova told 3,000 students and faculty, "Peace is not patriotic. Peace is subversive, because peace anticipates a very different world than the one in which we live--a world where the U.S. would have no place."

================================================== ============

Dude, STFU. Not every democrat thinks that way just like not every repub is a right wing racist, gay hating christian.

There are moderates in both parties. I think it's time you got a new tinfoil hat..........

[Prater]

Having lived in Italy for ten years and any Italian can tell you this hand
gesture means "Your wife has been infidel and everyone in the neighborhood
knows except you" The ultimate insault. Does she know somethong we don't
thats his daughter.


Funny, thats the Texas Hook em Horns you Moron...

[mbhalihunter]

everyone that i know that owns their own business doesn't have time to post 6000 times on spearboard, especially the really successful ones.

Not only do I work for a living and own a small business too, I think the democRATS are full of shit, that is why I vote Republican.

[DIVERTOM]

Three deffinitions from the dictionary for steers and queers.


1. land of steers and queers

just about any Western state

"only steers and queers come from Texas private cowboy, and you don't much look like a steer to me so that kinda narrows it down" Full Metal Jacket 1987




2. land of steers and queers

Oklahoma

The only two things from Oklahoma are steers and queers, and I don't see any horns on you boy. (Officer and a Gentleman, An - 1982)


3. land of steers and queers.

Aka Texas

Only steers and queers come from texas

[bgbill]

everyone that i know that owns their own business doesn't have time to post 6000 times on spearboard, especially the really successful ones.

I guess it depends on what you mean by successful.

[Prater]

Three deffinitions from the dictionary for steers and queers.


1. land of steers and queers

just about any Western state

"only steers and queers come from Texas private cowboy, and you don't much look like a steer to me so that kinda narrows it down" Full Metal Jacket 1987




2. land of steers and queers

Oklahoma

The only two things from Oklahoma are steers and queers, and I don't see any horns on you boy. (Officer and a Gentleman, An - 1982)


3. land of steers and queers.

Aka Texas

Only steers and queers come from texas

I always told everyone I was a lesbian trapped in a mans body...

you should get out more, maybe all that rocket fuel in the air during your childhood caused the lack of your mental capacity...J/K Just messing with ya

[Wayward Son]

Short video:

http://s39.photobucket.com/albums/e163/sfarish/?action=view&current=zombies.flv

[Prater]

LOL. Wayward, thats too funny

[DIVERTOM]

I voted and got a flu shot. Now its time to go fill up my vehicle and gas
tanks before gas goes up to $3 a gallon again!

[Christof]

Bret,
I match you and raise you ten more reasons why one should not vote Republican. I can Spin too:D

#1 Our economy has actualy only grown a total 1.5% since 2000. The economy grew 4% a YEAR from 1992-2000 with a Democrat in power. The economy grew for 116 consecutive months, the most in history. And we had a surplus at the end. Oh man Lens, come on.... The economy growth during the Clinton reign was so falsely inflated by the Dot.com "bubble", that evaporated into thin air very quickly.. Also, you forgetting what also happened under his watch, namely Tyco, MCI, and Enron? Corporations were so out of control under his administration and his pardon of Marc Rich was a prime example of his favor for rich criminals...
Yeah, Bush and Cheney have their bad examples too, but I am debating your example of Clinton, not Bush/Cheney.

#8 The Prescription drug program is not working. It does not allow Medicare to negotiate drug prices for the majority of people who need the drugs. Even most Republicans now disagree with the Prescription Drug Program. At least we have Wal-Mart!
Well it has really helped my poor mother in law... Thats all I can say about that.


#10 The deficit is 275 billion. The Admin used 400 Billion of Social Security to pay for it. It is actually 675 Billion. And our national debt has risen to 9 TRILLION dollars. We got to pay those credit cards sometime!I guess a war should be free? Not excusing going to war, but since we are in a war I guess we have to pay for it.... And you cant deny that even with the tax cuts, tax revenue because of the growth of the economy is up, WAY up..

With a Democrat as our leader we had a surplusAnd because Corporate oversight was basically nill for 8 years, there are hundreds of thousands of retired folks that went from having a very comfortable nest egg to having to say "Welcome to Wal Mart"... I cant believe not more is said about that. So many people got ripped off in a magnatude never seen before.

[jackpine savage]

Christof, If tax revenue is way up how do you explain the record defecits under Bush, not to mention the massive increase in the federal debt. As for the economy under Clinton, some of the dot-coms were inflated but not all of them. And the current economic situation is riding a real estate bubble which you are beginning to see subside.

[Wayward Son]

Spending.

Revenues are up, setting records. Doesn't matter if you still spend more than you take in. The same thing happened in the 80's. Reagans tax cuts worked, but congress outspent the increases every year.

[Christof]

I feel some kindness in that statement. I'm a Democrat and I have never
been unkind to anyone I can remember and thats what I think about us.
To understand would be to be familiar with our old attachment to the
immigrants from Europe, the first generation. We helped each other and
ate and worked together. The Dems used this in generating a middle class
and everyone was included no matter where, North or South, East or West, black or white. Whats degrading is to watch the errosion of our middle class and hear working people agree that this is the right course. Is the Republican party working for us?
Really? I'd like you to tell me how many "middle class" or lower income group folks your beloved Nancy Pelosi has at her cocktail parties... If she is in touch with any normal middle class folks, I am Christ himself.....
Thats what I love about true partisans, they only see the bad in the opposite party. I see bad in them all... Thats what makes me an independent...

[junior]

One trend in voting that strikes me time and again is the correlation between education and voting. Any one care to guess who gets more votes from the PhDs and who gets more votes from the high school drop outs?:D

[bgbill]

One trend in voting that strikes me time and again is the correlation between education and voting. Any one care to guess who gets more votes from the PhDs and who gets more votes from the high school drop outs?:D

I didn't realize that high school dropouts voted.

But I am assuming that the PhD's vote for Democrats, and that the high school dropouts, if they are voting, vote for Republicans.

Are you trying to say that a more educated person is smarter, or has more intelligence than a less educated person?

[bikewrench]

Are you trying to say that a more educated person is smarter, or has more intelligence than a less educated person?
You're kidding right?

[junior]

I didn't realize that high school dropouts voted.

But I am assuming that the PhD's vote for Democrats, and that the high school dropouts, if they are voting, vote for Republicans.

Are you trying to say that a more educated person is smarter, or has more intelligence than a less educated person?

I'm just stating a fact. I'll make no such judgements. You are free to make of it what you wish :D

[bgbill]

I'm just stating a fact. I'll make no such judgements. You are free to make of it what you wish :D

Care to post a verifiable source?

BTW Bush has a Degree from Harvard and Yale, and supposedly has better grades than Kerry.

[jackpine savage]

They are predicting Penn to go to Casey, bye bye Rick Sanitarium

[bikewrench]

...BTW Bush has a Degree from Harvard...
Yeah, so did the unibomber

[bgbill]

You're kidding right?

Just because a person went to college, does not make them smarter than a person who did not go to college.

[bgbill]

One trend in voting that strikes me time and again is the correlation between education and voting. Any one care to guess who gets more votes from the PhDs and who gets more votes from the high school drop outs?:D

Here is a Democrat, do you think he has a PhD?

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-smashedmachine1107-cn,0,1574203.story?coll=all-news-hed
Voter smashes touch-screen machine in AllentownA man who reportedly believed Republicans were conspiring to steal today's election entered an Allentown polling site, signed in and proceeded to smash the screen of one of the electronic voting machines with a metal cat paperweight, poll volunteers said.

Michael Young, 43, of 375 Auburn St., will be charged with felony criminal mischief and tampering with voting machines, according to Ronald Manescu, chief of investigations for Allentown police.


"He smashed it with the cat's ears," said volunteer Jim Govostis, who watched the incident unfold at Raker Center, a nursing home owned by Good Shepherd, around 12:30 p.m.

Young, who brought the paperweight with him, then sat down, hung his head and waited for police, who arrested him without incident.

"He came in here very peaceably and showed his ID," said volunteer Gladys Pezoldt, "then he got on the machine and just snapped…He was immediately remorseful. When the police came, he got up, turned around and put his hands behind his back."

Lehigh County Board of Elections Chief Clerk Stacy J. Sterner said votes recorded on the machine were saved. More than 130 people had voted at the site by the time of the incident.

"The good news is that even though the machine is broken, the votes are not lost on the memory card. They have them in custody at the voter registration office," Sterner said.

Sterner has worked in the voter registration office for 19 years. "Nothing can top this," she said.

The $5,000 machine will have to be replaced, Sterner said. It was one of two in the building.

Volunteer Shirley Rossetti said Young never spoke as he smashed the screen. "He did a job on it, didn't he?" she said. "It's frightening, because in this day and age, you just never know."

-- reporting by Daniel Patrick Sheehan and Wendy Solomon, The Morning Call

[jackpine savage]

Yeah, so did the unibomber
So do I but that doesn't man a whole lot. its what you do with the degree.

[jackpine savage]

Just because a person went to college, does not make them smarter than a person who did not go to college.
Bret-that has to be the wisest thing I have heard all night

[bgbill]

So do I but that doesn't man a whole lot. its what you do with the degree.

I guess your major wasn't English. :stick: :D :D

I have met several people with college degree's that were dumber than a box of rocks.

[jackpine savage]

:lol:

[bikewrench]

Just because a person went to college, does not make them smarter than a person who did not go to college.
BS. One earns a college degree exactly so he will become "smarter". Then you get a master's to become even smarter, then you get a... etc. College is about learning "facts and information" the simple possesion of which you may argue does not make one "smarter", but it is a whole lot more than that. You learn to analyze complex situations. You are forced to consider issues from all points in order to see subtle nuances of a situation. You learn to think critically. You don't get that experience in high school and most don't get that education in their lives, so I'm sorry, I believe that a college degree does in fact make one "smarter". Making one a "good" person or not is a different story,

[junior]

Are you trying to say that a more educated person is smarter, or has more intelligence than a less educated person?

Statistically speaking....absolutely. I'm sure most would agree that smarter people do smarter things more often, which positively impacts all aspects of their life. Education is not evil.

http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/press/cost05/education_pays_05.pdf

[bgbill]

Statistically speaking....absolutely.

http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/press/cost05/education_pays_05.pdf


I agree that for the most part, a person with a college degree will earn more than a person without one, but that does not make them more intelligent.

Intelligence is not something that can be taught.

Anyone that studies enough can get a college degree, that does not make them intelligent though.

[bikewrench]

I'm going to give bgbill a pass on this one. "He knows not what he says." I think he is apoplectic over the seeming crushing by the dems today ;)

[Marcus]

Anyone that studies enough can get a college degree, that does not make them intelligent though.


But for the most part...it does. Certainly you will always have individuals like GW...which are the exception. :D

[ITSABOUTTIME]

BS. One earns a college degree exactly so he will become "smarter". Then you get a master's to become even smarter, then you get a... etc. College is about learning "facts and information" the simple possesion of which you may argue does not make one "smarter", but it is a whole lot more than that. You learn to analyze complex situations. You are forced to consider issues from all points in order to see subtle nuances of a situation. You learn to think critically. You don't get that experience in high school and most don't get that education in their lives, so I'm sorry, I believe that a college degree does in fact make one "smarter". Making one a "good" person or not is a different story,
BS one can learn all of the above without a degree. most may not learn critical thinking in life but most won't learn it in college either. the pursuit of knowledge outwieghs the pursuit of a degree.

[junior]

If you look through those graphs you will see a direct relationship between education and general well being. It is across the board Bret. You can argue that some people without higher education are certainly intelligent, but if "most" people without higher education were intelligent than the graphs and statistics would look a lot different. There are some brilliant people with no formal education. But, it is more often the exception, not the norm. Plenty of people do quite well with no higher education. Most do less well than their counterparts.

[bikewrench]

BS one can learn all of the above without a degree. most may not learn critical thinking in life but most won't learn it in college either. the pursuit of knowledge outwieghs the pursuit of a degree.
Where is the "best" place to "pursue knowledge"? I hope you guys are not tryng to sell this philosophy to your children.

[Bill McIntyre]

Really? I'd like you to tell me how many "middle class" or lower income group folks your beloved Nancy Pelosi has at her cocktail parties... If she is in touch with any normal middle class folks, I am Christ himself.....
.

Dear Jesus,

You aren't going to see any middle income or lower income folks at the cocktail parties of the leaders of either party. What matters is their policies.

FDR was a blueblood, and I bet you didn't meet any plumbers or carpenters at his parties, but his policies so benefitted the middle and lower classes that Republicans despise him to this day.

Cliinton raised taxes on the top 1% of earners, and in spite of the doomsday forecasts by the supply-siders, the economy grew and the deficit disappeared.

Bush cut taxes for the top 1%, but not for the middle and lower classes, and oops.

[bikewrench]

BS one can learn all of the above without a degree. most may not learn critical thinking in life but most won't learn it in college either. the pursuit of knowledge outwieghs the pursuit of a degree.

The thing is, overwhelmingly, most people don't learn "the above" on their own. Not everyone with a degree does either (GW) but most do.

[bgbill]

I'm going to give bgbill a pass on this one. "He knows not what he says." I think he is apoplectic over the seeming crushing by the dems today ;)


In your profile, it says you are a science teacher, how much does that pay?

I may not have a College Degree, but I am intelligent enough to pass a test to get a Contractors License (On my 1st attempt, BTW the majority of people who take it, do not pass it on their 1st try), and I seriously doubt that a science teacher makes more than a General Contractor.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

Where is the "best" place to "pursue knowledge"? I hope you guys are not tryng to sell this philosophy to your children.
Yes I will push to my son that the purose of school is to learn not to seek a degree. Also to educate himself to seek his goals. Good places to seek knowledge would be traveling, talking to older people, military, buying and maintaining your first vehicle, prayer, and reading everthing you can get your hands on that you find of interest.

[bikewrench]

How many doctors without a degree? How about lawyers? Airline pilots? CEO's? Congressmen? Senators? Teachers? Govenors? Nurses? Newspaper reporters? Engineers? Military Officers? Bankers? Seeing a pattern here?

[ITSABOUTTIME]

I do hope he does pass atyping class though

[ITSABOUTTIME]

How many doctors without a degree? How about lawyers? Airline pilots? CEO's? Congressmen? Senators? Teachers? Govenors? Nurses? Newspaper reporters? Engineers? Military Officers? Bankers? Seeing a pattern here?
Good thing Bill Gates didn't want to be any of those things

[junior]

Yes I will push to my son that the purose of school is to learn not to seek a degree. Also to educate himself to seek his goals. Good places to seek knowledge would be traveling, talking to older people, military, buying and maintaining your first vehicle, prayer, and reading everthing you can get your hands on that you find of interest.

All good endeavors, but not so valuable on the cover letter for his resume. Unless you want him to work harder, not smarter.

[bikewrench]

In your profile, it says you are a science teacher, how much does that pay?

I may not have a College Degree, but I am intelligent enough to pass a test to get a Contractors License (On my 1st attempt, BTW the majority of people who take it, do not pass it on their 1st try), and I seriously doubt that a science teacher makes more than a General Contractor.
I'm glad for you. But if you had ever studied critical thinking you would know that you are now very close to resorting to an ad hominem argument which you would also know is not a valid argument in a debate. If you want to start comparing the income of your profession to those with degrees you will not be able to limit the discussion to people who choose to teach. No, you will have to open yourself up to other professions with degrees. Now you don't want to do that do you?

[bgbill]

I'm glad for you. But if you had ever studied critical thinking you would know that you are now very close to resorting to an ad hominem argument which you would also know is not a valid argument in a debate. If you want to start comparing the income of your profession to those with degrees you will not be able to limit the discussion to people who choose to teach. No, you will have to open yourself up to other professions with degrees. Now you don't want to do that do you?


I have heard the term "Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach"

Can you explain the term to me?

[jackpine savage]

It is pretty well proven that a person with a bachelor degree will make more than a person with a high school diploma, a masters degree will earn even more and a PhD even more. There are the exceptions to the rule but any one who would says that there child doesn't need a degree is selling their child short. Not every job requires it but you are in a better position with one. I have a masters yet I am a general contractor, not necessarily a job where I need one. However, I had a different carrer prior to this and now I am in the building trade by choice rather than necessity.

[lens]

Bret,
There are exceptions but they are not the rule. Some people are sponges for knowledge.

Before you took the General Contractors test, I assume you studied either the DVD series or a book to refresh. Correct?

So in a sense, you educated yourself. And the Contractors License is your “degree” of certification.

I think that a lot of people confuse KNOWLEDGE and WISDOM. They are totally different. People that do not go to college are not dumb. My father never went to college and I learn from him everyday.

But there is a difference.

You attain knowledge from the pursuit of learning, reading and some form of education whether vocational or higher education. And through experience, one gains knowledge and wisdom.

Wisdom is handed down or gained from experience. Ie: “Common Since”

A good example; a person with “wisdom” and experience can tell you that a deep V-hull has a better ride than a flat-bottom boat.

A person that is educated in that specific field can tell you “why” a V-Hull is better and how different degrees affect drag and draft.

Also,
A reason that companies like to hire people with degrees is not because they are smarter, but rather it shows (Sometimes) someone finishes what they started and that they set goals and achieve them.

And a FYI FACT. John Stewart’s audience is 80% higher educated than Bill OReilley’s audience. 80% of the Daily show viewers have college degrees, and 80% of the “Spin” Factor audience only have high school diplomas. :D

[bgbill]

It is pretty well proven that a person with a bachelor degree will make more than a person with a high school diploma, a masters degree will earn even more and a PhD even more. There are the exceptions to the rule but any one who would says that there child doesn't need a degree is selling their child short. Not every job requires it but you are in a better position with one. I have a masters yet I am a general contractor, not necessarily a job where I need one. However, I had a different carrer prior to this and now I am in the building trade by choice rather than necessity.


I am not saying a college degree is not worth having, my point is, just because a person has a college degree, it does not make them more intelligent, than a person without one.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

Do you think they include entreprenuers and business owners in those stats?

[junior]

I had a laborer working for me one day that said he did not want his kids to go to college simply because he did not want them to be smarter than him. Now that's f'd up if you ask me. I will push mine to do better than I did.

[bikewrench]

I have heard the term "Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach"

Can you explain the term to me?
Do you really need that explained? Even a guy with "just" a high school dip should be able to figure that one out. There you go bg that is a great example of an ad hominem argument. I'll explain that one to you. It is a personal attack that has no relavance to the argument. It usually occurs in a debate when one party realizes he has lost the argument and has nothing left to add.

[bgbill]

I had a laborer working for me one day that said he did not want his kids to go to college simply because he did not want them to be smarter than him. Now that's f'd up if you ask me. I will push mine to do better than I did.

That is ****ed up, I want my kids to do better than I did, and I expect them to, after all, who is going to support me when I get old, Social Security will not be around. :D :D

[bgbill]

Do you really need that explained? Even a guy with "just" a high school dip should be able to figure that one out. There you go bg that is a great example of an ad hominem argument. I'll explain that one to you. It is a personal attack that has no relavance to the argument. It usually occurs in a debate when one party realizes he has lost the argument and has nothing left to add.

I agree it was kind of a cheap shot, but you seem to take a few yourself.

I would be willing to take an IQ test, and compare it to your IQ, are you willing to do the same?

[junior]

Do you think they include entreprenuers and business owners in those stats?

I think the stats on that page I referenced are career independant.

A few key items from the link:

From 1972-2003, those with a high school diploma only have lost a higher percentage of income in 2003 dollars than those with a college degree.

From 1979-2002, college educated individuals have lost a lower percentage of health insurance coverage than those with only a high school diploma.

College educated people exercies more, vote more, smoke less when pregnant, treat their diabetes more effectively, are less obese, have lower risks for heart disease and their children have the highest rates of college enrollment and math scores.

I'm sure that almost anything you can think of that is a key indicator of health or well being is something that is done more consistently by people with more education.

[jackpine savage]

C'mon all of these a**hole politicians have degrees are you all saying they are smarter than us

[Graham]

How many doctors without a degree? How about lawyers? Airline pilots? CEO's? Congressmen? Senators? Teachers? Govenors? Nurses? Newspaper reporters? Engineers? Military Officers? Bankers? Seeing a pattern here?
I know several people that have been CEO's of prominent companies that did not have a college degree. I also know several people that have made millions in industrial construction while heading up major projects all over the world. Just because you have a degree does not mean that you are competent. I learned at least twice as much in my first year on the job than I ever learned in five years of college. Not to mention, most of the classes that I took were teaching practices that were outdated before the first day of class. That's the problem with academia, if they can fool someone out of grant money, they can teach that the sky is green and the grass is blue. Simply no accountability.

[bgbill]

Screw you guys, I am going to self smart myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj3SIXtLaAY

[junior]

Just because you have a degree does not mean that you are competent.

Definately, but this is not what I am saying. More educated people tend to do better across the board, even if they are not competent:D

[bgbill]

C'mon all of these a**hole politicians have degrees are you all saying they are smarter than us

:stupid: :thumps:

[bikewrench]

I had a laborer working for me one day that said he did not want his kids to go to college simply because he did not want them to be smarter than him. Now that's f'd up if you ask me. I will push mine to do better than I did.

That is f'd up. But that kind of overt stupidity must be rare (I hope). The real problem with many uneducated parents is that they do not create a home environment where education is valued. Kids do not learn to read or appreciate other's values. Social and political ideas are never discussed, much less understood. They rarely learn the value of hard work, goal setting, and discipline. The parents have few coping skills themselves so all the kids learn are that problems are "solved" by yelling, screaming, hitting, etc. Drug and alcohol abuse are more of a problem with uneducated people. Un-wed, teenage mothers, etc, etc, etc. Bret, despite your personal attack on me, I am glad you are successful and have your shyte together, but don't kid yourself, that situation is an exception.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

I think the stats on that page I referenced are career independant.

A few key items from the link:

From 1972-2003, those with a high school diploma only have lost a higher percentage of income in 2003 dollars than those with a college degree.

From 1979-2002, college educated individuals have lost a lower percentage of health insurance coverage than those with only a high school diploma.

College educated people exercies more, vote more, smoke less when pregnant, treat their diabetes more effectively, are less obese, have lower risks for heart disease and their children have the highest rates of college enrollment and math scores.

I'm sure that almost anything you can think of that is a key indicator of health or well being is something that is done more consistently by people with more education.
Junior a lot of these things would have to do with the environment they were brought up in than the fact of whether the degree established this for them. If I had gotten a degree I probably woud have just said do to socio-econimic factors

[bgbill]

Bret, despite your personal attak on me, I am glad you are successful and have your shyte together, but don't kid yourself, that situation is an exception.

You started in on me http://www.spearboard.com/showpost.php?p=391940&postcount=203,I gave you some crap, but I did not "attack" you.

Please explain how I attacked you.

[junior]

Bret, you basically denigrated the guy's profession:D

[bgbill]

Bret, you basically denigrated the guy's profession:D

I guess I am too stupid to realize that, maybe ifn' I went to collage, I would know better. :D

[junior]

I guess I am too stupid to realize that, maybe ifn' I went to collage, I would know better. :D

You knew what you were doing. You're a lot smarter than you look:D

[Graham]

Definately, but this is not what I am saying. More educated people tend to do better across the board, even if they are not competent:D
I agree, but I still have a problem with it. I have spent my first 3 years out of school busting my a$$ in the field so I can learn as much about what actually goes on in real life as I can. I know way too many people that are making tons of money and simply don't have a clue how anything, and I mean anything, actually works in real life. It sucks but your ability to do well in today's workforce does not depend on your actual job skills but actually your CYA skills.

[bikewrench]

I would be willing to take an IQ test, and compare it to your IQ, are you willing to do the same?
Dude you don't get it do you? We started out having a philosophical debate and now you are resorting to personal attacks. Sure I'll throw my 138 against yours, you may very well win. But that does not change the argument. Nor does your income, that is not the argument either. In general the more education you have the better off we all are.

[bgbill]

Junior,

In the study where it shows a college educated person will make more money, than a non college educated person, does it take into account that the person going to college, enters the work force later, and has a lot of student loans that will have to be paid back.

Or do they just start looking at the earning years, after the college educated person gets out of school?

I am sure the person with the college degree will eventually catch up and most likely make more, but they are actually starting off later in life earning a living.

There are exceptions, and I believe my case is one, but to be honest, a college degree may not help me, but it sure wouldn't hurt either.

[bgbill]

Dude you don't get it do you? We started out having a philosophical debate and now you are resorting to personal attacks. Sure I'll throw my 138 against yours, you may very well win. But that does not change the argument. Nor does your income. I'll throw my $69,000/8 months against your income, maybe you would win that too. But that is not the argument either. In general the more education you have the better off we all are.

I never said more education is a bad thing, I just don't agree that more education makes you more intelligent.

[bikewrench]

You started in on me http://www.spearboard.com/showpost.php?p=391940&postcount=203,I gave you some crap, but I did not "attack" you.

Please explain how I attacked you.
You are bringing personal issues (like income, profession, IQ, (dick size?)) into a philosophical debate. My stats and your stats have nothing to do with the argument in general. You started with the personal stuff. My comment that you refer to was not personal, nor was it a part of the argument, and it was a joke(notice the ;) ?)

[junior]

I agree, but I still have a problem with it. I have spent my first 3 years out of school busting my a$$ in the field so I can learn as much about what actually goes on in real life as I can. I know way too many people that are making tons of money and simply don't have a clue how anything, and I mean anything, actually works in real life. It sucks but your ability to do well in today's workforce does not depend on your actual job skills but actually your CYA skills.

I think you will find that the majority of people who make a "ton" of money for no apparent reason will be looking for a new job sooner or later. Educated people who work hard and know their stuff will always do better on average. I will agree that school does not prepare you for the real world. When you come out of school you are entry level no matter what. But, you will move up on a stronger financial curve if you've gotten into the right field, put in the effort and make the right choices as opposed to the friend of a friend who is making 80K doing telecom "stuff" with an AA in sociology:D

[bgbill]

You are bringing personal issues (like income, profession, IQ, (dick size?)) into a philosophical debate. My stats and your stats have nothing to do with the argument in general. You started with the personal stuff. My comment that you refer to was not personal, nor was it a part of the argument, and it was a joke(notice the ;) ?)

So now you want to measure Dick's? :eek:

I can't believe someone would want to "whip em' out and measure em" :D

[bikewrench]

I never said more education is a bad thing, I just don't agree that more education makes you more intelligent.
OK, then we'll just have to agree to disagree on the definition of 'intelligence'. I believe that it is directly affected by education.

I get all hot and bothered over this subject because I get to deal with inner-city kids all day long every day who think they "don't need no school" because they are all "gonna be rap stars" or "pro basketball players".
Drives me nuts because, like you, I know that is BS. With hard work, discipline, direction they could become doctors, lawyers, teachers, and builders. I live a sad life. ;)

[bgbill]

I think you will find that the majority of people who make a "ton" of money for no apparent reason will be looking for a new job sooner or later. Educated people who work hard and know their stuff will always do better on average. I will agree that school does not prepare you for the real world. When you come out of school you are entry level no matter what. But, you will move up on a stronger financial curve if you've gotten into the right field, put in the effort and make the right choices as opposed to the friend of a friend who is making 80K doing telecom "stuff" with an AA in sociology:D

Back in 1984 and 1985, when I was only out of high school for less than 2 years, I was a Solar Installer in South Florida, and was doing Piece work, I made about $50,000 a year.

Not too bad for a guy with no college, it was hard work, and we worked almost every day of the week.

[junior]

Junior,

In the study where it shows a college educated person will make more money, than a non college educated person, does it take into account that the person going to college, enters the work force later, and has a lot of student loans that will have to be paid back.

Or do they just start looking at the earning years, after the college educated person gets out of school?

I am sure the person with the college degree will eventually catch up and most likely make more, but they are actually starting off later in life earning a living.

There are exceptions, and I believe my case is one, but to be honest, a college degree may not help me, but it sure wouldn't hurt either.

My student loans amount to a decent car's value. My wife's OTOH would have us rolling on dubs in the 'Lade:D

It's worth it, but you are right. Many of my friends were making what I make now while I was still in school, but I feel I have more potential to increase my income than many of them now.

[bgbill]

OK, then we'll just have to agree to disagree on the definition of 'intelligence'. I believe that it is directly affected by education.

I get all hot and bothered over this subject because I get to deal with inner-city kids all day long every day who think they "don't need no school" because they are all "gonna be rap stars" or "pro basketball players".

I may be wrong, but I don't think Intelligence can be taught, just like you really can't study for an IQ test, you are either intelligent, or you are not.

I hope you don't think I was trying to put education down, because I wasn't, if I could do it over again, I would have went to college, not only for the drinking and the Chick's, but I think it helps make you a more well rounded individual.

If you are dealing with Inner City kids, my hat is off to you :thumps: as that would drive me crazy.

[bikewrench]

One of the most important benefits of education is choice. With an education you have more choice in what you can do if you ever change you mind. Or if the economy changes it for you.

[bgbill]

One of the most important benefits of education is choice. With an education you have more choice in what you can do if you ever change you mind. Or if the economy changes it for you.

Maybe, maybe not, it depends on what you get locked into, but it definately can't hurt.

I am a General Contractor, who specializes in remodeling, Kitchens, bathrooms, elevation changes, etc., so no matter what happens with the economy, I will be able to find work, I am also a hands on Contractor, and not a "Paper Contractor" so I can always keep busy.

I don't recall there ever being a recession in the construction business in West Central Florida, and with all of the baby boomers getting ready to come to Florida, i will have more work than I could ever want.

I am also getting ready to get my Class "A" A/C license, so that even gives me greater flexibility in how I can earn a living.