Democratic Plan for Iraq

[bgbill]

Now that the Democrats have taken the House and the Senate, and have a lame duck President, what is their plan for Iraq?

I am sure the Democrats have a plan, after all, the President's plan sucks, so since they are in control now, how are they going to take care of the mess in Iraq?

[Bill McIntyre]

As I said in another thread, they will have a very hard time coming up with a plan. Its a lot easier to create a cluster**** than to get out of it. There are no good options, only choices of bad ones. That's why the dumb shit should have thought it through before starting a war that could not be won.

But Bush already appointed a study group run by one of his Daddy's men, James Baker, and including his Daddy's CIA Director, Bob Gates, so lets see what the adults can do to get Junior out of his mess.

[bgbill]

As I said in another thread, they will have a very hard time coming up with a plan. Its a lot easier to create a cluster**** than to get out of it. There are no good options, only choices of bad ones. That's why the dumb shit should have thought it through before starting a war that could not be won.

But Bush already appointed a study group run by one of his Daddy's men, James Baker, and including his Daddy" CIA Director, Bob Gates, so lets see what the adults can do to get Junior out of his mess.


So I guess the Democrats don't have a plan for Iraq then? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[fast97rs]

^^^^

I don't know about you guys.... but maybee (due to this election) we will have some hope in '08...

I know the plan. Blame Bush, explain how his plan sucked, and then take no fault saying that you had no clear option on the horrible decisions you made.... and thus blame Bush again

Have a :beer: and sit back.... the next few years should be very interesting


Jorgy

[Ironhed]

I still remember it being an almost unanimous decision to start dropping bombs when we went. both democrats and republicans were for it when this started, so now that the dem's are in control I am waiting to see the light at the end of this tunnel. you cannot refute that the dems were in agreement of war we all were.

this reminds me of grade school when you and your buddies are getting into trouble and the shit hits the fan all of a sudden the leader of the group is all alone and everyone is saying " it wasn't me" :rolleyes:

[Bill McIntyre]

So I guess the Democrats don't have a plan for Iraq then? :confused: :confused: :confused:

If their only plan is to try to use their heads and take the advice of generals and other experts, it will be a big improvement.

[bgbill]

I still remember it being an almost unanimous decision to start dropping bombs when we went. both democrats and republicans were for it when this started, so now that the dem's are in control I am waiting to see the light at the end of this tunnel. you cannot refute that the dems were in agreement of war we all were.

this reminds me of grade school when you and your buddies are getting into trouble and the shit hits the fan all of a sudden the leader of the group is all alone and everyone is saying " it wasn't me" :rolleyes:

They were for the war, before they were against it.

But the way they are acting is typical of a Democrat.

[Wayward Son]

I heard Pelosi in an interview today say that it's not a war, it's a"situation" & you can define victory any way you want to.

Hell, I didn't know it was gonna be that easy to solve.

[Kahuna]

Boy this is gonna be fun. Now all we have to do is have no answers just call the other side dumbasses and make them wrong.

[bgbill]

Now all we have to do is have no answers just call the other side dumbasses and make them wrong.

I thought that was one of the planks in the democratic platform.

[Ironhed]

now that the balance of power has tilted does this mean we can now point the fingers? The view is much different from over here :D

[Marcus]

Ahhh yes...sour grapes. :D BTW, I'm not a democratic so don't point that finger at me.

[Bill McIntyre]

Boy this is gonna be fun. Now all we have to do is have no answers just call the other side dumbasses and make them wrong.

If you jump off a cliff, it can be hard for anyone else to alter the inevitable outcome.

The best we can hope for is that your friends will say "Boy, that SOB jumped off a cliff and it didn't work out. Maybe we shouldn't jump off a cliff."

[Bill McIntyre]

now that the balance of power has tilted does this mean we can now point the fingers? The view is much different from over here :D

If balance of power means that Congress will actually perform its oversight function, that that will be an improvement. If the Republican Congress had done any oversight rather than just being a rubber stamp for the executive branch, it would still be a Republican Congress.

[bgbill]

Ahhh yes...sour grapes. :D BTW, I'm not a democratic so don't point that finger at me.


It isn't sour grapes, just wondering what their plan is.

It wasn't just republicans that voted to go to war with Iraq.

It is easy to bitch about something, and say what is being done is wrong and won't work, coming up with a plan that will work is a whole different matter.

I am still waiting to see what the Democratic plan for Iraq is, I suspect it will just be more of the same, it is Bush's fault, Bush lied people die, etc.

[Marcus]

I'd say just about anything would be better than what was being done, i.e. "stay the course". I really don't see how they could do worse.

[bgbill]

I'd say just about anything would be better than what was being done, i.e. "stay the course". I really don't see how they could do worse.


So should we just "cut and run" then?

[stickitfishy]

They were for the war, before they were against it.

But the way they are acting is typical of a Democrat.


Yeah, they were for the war based on the LIES they were told. By the way, I think it is about time for you to step down as a moderator. I'm sick of your democrat bashing. I mean you act like you know it all but you really are one of those people who think they know it all but know very little, like Bush! After all you did buy a house that sits in the middle of a flood plain and you are a general contractor. That's just plain genius! :lol:

[Ironhed]

cut and run only would work if we ran from the nukes being dropped, anything short of that and were *****ed.
btw. everyone was given the same cia information to make decisions from. There was not a separate booklet given to the democrats, sorry :rolleyes:

[stickitfishy]

cut and run only would work if we ran from the nukes being dropped, anything short of that and were *****ed.
btw. everyone was given the same cia information to make decisions from. There was not a separate booklet given to the democrats, sorry :rolleyes:

Yeah, and the democrats were the only ones smart enough to change their minds AFTER they were lied to! :thumps:

[Marcus]

So should we just "cut and run" then?

Nope. Never said that. I'm sure they can come up with a better plan than the "stay the course" administration though.

[Bill McIntyre]

Bush is still the Commander in Chief (and the decider too) for two more years, so that is where the buck still stops. He broke it, so he can fix it.

[bgbill]

Yeah, they were for the war based on the LIES they were told. By the way, I think it is about time for you to step down as a moderator. I'm sick of your democrat bashing. I mean you act like you know it all but you really are one of those people who think they know it all but know very little, like Bush! After all you did buy a house that sits in the middle of a flood plain and you are a general contractor. That's just plain genius! :lol:

Is Bush responsible for the lies that were told to him?

How exactly have I bashed democrats?

My House does not sit in the middle of a flood plain, it is not in a flood zone either, you might want to look up the definition of "flood plain".

Did you sell much gourmet coffee today?

[Ironhed]

Yeah, and the democrats were the only ones smart enough to change their minds AFTER they were lied to! :thumps:
did they change their minds before we went to war? (not even close) the information that the cia information was botched didn't come in until after we took down saddam. that is when the finger pointing began. and who was lied to? I believe everyone outside of the cia was lied to including the president. now that this issue is resolved, what is going to be the plan to make things right? continue to blame bush isnt going to fix anything

[Ironhed]

Did you sell much gourmet coffee today? :lol: good one

[Wayward Son]

Democrats seem to be pissed off whether they win or lose. What's it take to make them happy?

[Bill McIntyre]

Is Bush responsible for the lies that were told to him?



All sorts of former insiders have said that the White House pushed the intelligence. If a CIA report didn't say what they wanted to hear, they said "check it again." After a lot of that, they finally got told what they wanted to be told.

[bgbill]

Democrats seem to be pissed off whether they win or lose. What's it take to make them happy?


I think Starbucks boy just had a bad day at work today, the double latte express mocah machine must be on the fritz again.

[Ironhed]

All sorts of former insiders have said that the White House pushed the intelligence. If a CIA report didn't say what they wanted to hear, they said "check it again." After a lot of that, they finally got told what they wanted to be told.
I would consider this hear say evidence unless you can show some kind of proof. I am calling BS on this one sorry

Starbucks really how am I suprised? every birkenstock wearing left winger hangs out there. a whole lot of sensitive types really enjoy listening to hawthorne heights while sipping on a cup of joe and reading the latest hillary clinton book or oprah rag. "I'll have my latte with an extra shot of espresso oh and could you sprinkle some of those little chocolate deals on there yeah thanks." :D

[lens]

did they change their minds before we went to war? (not even close) the information that the cia information was botched didn't come in until after we took down saddam.


I would consider this hear say evidence unless you can show some kind of proof. I am calling BS on this one sorry

Then wipe your ass! :eek:

Cia botched?

Ummmm....does Valerie Plame ring a bell? Maybe Joe Wilson? No?
And ummmmm maybe.....Powell,

oh yeah!.........And every country in Europe.

Oh but I forgot America hates Europe........for not joining us in "Occupation Iraq!"

[bgbill]

All sorts of former insiders have said that the White House pushed the intelligence. If a CIA report didn't say what they wanted to hear, they said "check it again." After a lot of that, they finally got told what they wanted to be told.

Bill,

Isn't this the same intelligence that the Democrats had, before Bush became the President? :confused: :confused:

[stickitfishy]

Is Bush responsible for the lies that were told to him?

He was told repeatedly the intel was crap, but you choose not to remember!

How exactly have I bashed democrats?

Are you f-ing kidding me, read the your posts on this thread. Dude, you bash anyone anytime they do not agree with your very narrow point of view on things.

My House does not sit in the middle of a flood plain, it is not in a flood zone either, you might want to look up the definition of "flood plain".

I know what a flood plain is and I didn't really think your house sat in one. I was making a point about your decision making abilities. I mean there were sand bags in your garage when you moved there or were they outside cause I know you will eat me alive on a technicality like that. :lol:

Did you sell much gourmet coffee today?

I do not know for sure because I did not service my machines today but I did probably sell a good amount of hot chocolates and french vanilla cappucino's.

By the way, I will be getting out of this business soon because I've been offered an incredible opportunity to go into the electrical biz with my father. Have to be accepted by the JATC first but that should not be a problem with my last name.

[Prater]

I look at it this way. The inteligence at the time awas believed to be correct by some and not correct by others. Now if you are in the cammanders shoes and 5 of your advisers ae saying its correct and five are saying its incorrect where do you make the decision? Do you err on the side of caution and maybe put alllied countries at high risk of being attacked by WMD, or do you take controll of the situation militarily before any such weapons can be used and supress the offending nation. It is a tough decision but under the circumstances of their disregaurd of the UN sanctions, and previous invasions of surrounding countries I would have to go with the five that say it is correct inteligence.

What would you do?

[stickitfishy]

I would consider this hear say evidence unless you can show some kind of proof. I am calling BS on this one sorry

Starbucks really how am I suprised? every birkenstock wearing left winger hangs out there. a whole lot of sensitive types really enjoy listening to hawthorne heights while sipping on a cup of joe and reading the latest hillary clinton book or oprah rag. "I'll have my latte with an extra shot of espresso oh and could you sprinkle some of those little chocolate deals on there yeah thanks." :D

How's your ear genius? :lol:

[bgbill]

I look at it this way. The inteligence at the time awas believed to be correct by some and not correct by others. Now if you are in the cammanders shoes and 5 of your advisers ae saying its correct and five are saying its incorrect where do you make the decision? Do you err on the side of caution and maybe put alllied countries at high risk of being attacked by WMD, or do you take controll of the situation militarily before any such weapons can be used and supress the offending nation. It is a tough decision but under the circumstances of their disregaurd of the UN sanctions, and previous invasions of surrounding countries I would have to go with the five that say it is correct inteligence.

What would you do?

If you are a Democrat, you would vote for the war, and then when things don't go as well as you would hope they would, you start bitching about Bush going to war (even though you voted to go also).

[Bill McIntyre]

I would consider this hear say evidence unless you can show some kind of proof. I am calling BS on this one sorry


Some times I forget that not everyone reads the papers. The first one that came to mind was former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neil, so I did a search for h is name.

Here is one excerpt from a review of his book.

And what happened at President Bush's very first National Security Council meeting is one of O'Neill's most startling revelations.

“From the very beginning, there was a conviction, that Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go,” says O’Neill, who adds that going after Saddam was topic "A" 10 days after the inauguration - eight months before Sept. 11.

“From the very first instance, it was about Iraq. It was about what we can do to change this regime,” says Suskind. “Day one, these things were laid and sealed.”

As treasury secretary, O'Neill was a permanent member of the National Security Council. He says in the book he was surprised at the meeting that questions such as "Why Saddam?" and "Why now?" were never asked.

"It was all about finding a way to do it. That was the tone of it. The president saying ‘Go find me a way to do this,’" says O’Neill. “For me, the notion of pre-emption, that the U.S. has the unilateral right to do whatever we decide to do, is a really huge leap.”

The entire article is at

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/09/60minutes/main592330.shtml

This at least lays out the "find a way" mindset that existed from the time of Bush's inauguration. I've read much more specific stuff about sending back intel reports until they finally heard what they wanted to here. But if I spend time searching, I'm sure you will find a way to say it ain't so.

[fast97rs]

^^^^^^

If all the information you recieve comes from only the "papers" *cough*liberalmedia*cough* then its obvious why your opinion is what it is....


If you jump off a cliff, it can be hard for anyone else to alter the inevitable outcome.

The best we can hope for is that your friends will say "Boy, that SOB jumped off a cliff and it didn't work out. Maybe we shouldn't jump off a cliff."


And.... as I predicted.... it begins!


Jorgy

[lens]

Ironhed,

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/14/60II/main577975.shtml

Regardless, I have a feeling we will see a big change in the war by mid 2007.

[Kahuna]

Bill I hope you read this and we can come back to it.

The number one thing on the Democratic agenda will be to make certain they never loose power again. Mark my words on this.

1. They will attempt to destroy anyone or everyone that could take away thier majority 2 years from now at whatever the cost.
2. They WILL start impeachment proceedings in the not too distant future.
3. Taxes WILL be raised and the economy will slow down.
4. The far left of the party will go over the edge and been seen for what they are and loose the silent majority vote in the next election. The Pelosi's of the world are not what the majority of Americans ( from either party) agree with.
5. The Democrats will not enjoy the party line vote the Republicans did.

The voters who voted this circus in didn't know the clowns would be running it.

[WreckDiver]

Have to be accepted by the JATC first but that should not be a problem with my last name.


So its ok for SOME people to use there name to get into or out of something but only if you are from the far left?

Try doing things the way most of us have to WORK for it, learn the rules and study then get it on your OWN merits.


You have done plenty of people bashing yourself.

[Wayward Son]

I feel so much better now:

Issue Date: www.insightmag.com - Nov. 7-13, 2006, Posted On: 11/6/2006

Pelosi aims to block Democratic hawks from key posts


Rep. Nancy Pelosi plans to sideline colleagues who are hawkish on national security in the Democratic leadership in the House.



Democratic Party sources said as House Speaker, Ms. Pelosi plans to block moves that would place hawks into important chairmanships. The sources said a key casualty would be Rep. Jane Harman, a six-term member of Congress who has cooperated with Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee.



"Nancy Pelosi wants total party discipline," a source in the Democratic Party leadership said. "If you played ball with the Republicans during this session, then you're not going to be given an important chair in the next session."



As the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Ms. Harman was expected to become chairman of the powerful committee. But Ms. Pelosi is expected to pass over Ms. Harman for either Rep. Alcee Hastings of Florida or Rep. Silvestre Reyes of Texas, the second- and third-ranking Democrats on the intelligence panel.



The 42-member Congressional Black Caucus has been pushing for Mr. Hastings, an impeached federal judge, to become chairman. Earlier this year, the caucus was upset by Ms. Pelosi's decision to expel Rep. William Jefferson from the committee after he was accused of accepting bribes.



"There is no seniority on the Intelligence Committee," Ms. Pelosi said. "The leader or the speaker can appoint a whole new set of people."



The sources said the 61-year-old Ms. Harman, regarded as the best informed House Democrat on intelligence and technology issues, angered the liberal Ms. Pelosi by supporting the Bush administration’s policies on defense issues, particularly the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act. They said Ms. Pelosi has rebuffed lobbyists in the pro-Israel community and defense industry that sought a chairmanship for Ms. Harman.



"If Nancy Pelosi's apparent determination to deny Jane Harman the chairmanship of the House Intelligence Committee to appease the Black Caucus is any indication, Democratic control is not going to be good news for those who believe in competent oversight of the national-security apparatus," said Loren Thompson, a defense analyst at the Lexington Institute.



Ms. Harman, who helped the Democrats draft a national security agenda for the campaign, said she hoped to remain a leading voice on defense issues. She said her California constituents want her to be on the House Intelligence Committee.



"House Intelligence Committee activities are directly relevant to the major concerns of my constituents," Ms. Harman said.

[MauiFreeDiver]

Yeah, they were for the war based on the LIES they were told. By the way, I think it is about time for you to step down as a moderator. I'm sick of your democrat bashing. I mean you act like you know it all but you really are one of those people who think they know it all but know very little, like Bush! After all you did buy a house that sits in the middle of a flood plain and you are a general contractor. That's just plain genius! :lol:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :thumps: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[lens]

1. They will attempt to destroy anyone or everyone that could take away thier majority 2 years from now at whatever the cost.
2. They WILL start impeachment proceedings in the not too distant future.
3. Taxes WILL be raised and the economy will slow down.
4. The far left of the party will go over the edge and been seen for what they are and loose the silent majority vote in the next election. The Pelosi's of the world are not what the majority of Americans ( from either party) agree with.
5. The Democrats will not enjoy the party line vote the Republicans did.


Well let’s see

#1 Sort of like the Republican congress over the last 8 years? :rolleyes:

#2 I doubt there will be impeachment, but there will be investigations. It is called congressional oversight. And with ALL the Republican scandal lately, investigation is what congress’s job is to do. Now if something major comes up......what do you think should be done?

#3 Yes the upper class will be taxed, not raised, but to what they were taxed pre 911. And by the way, the economy started slowing down 6 months ago. 1.8% growth to 1.4% in the last 6 months.

#4 again, sort of like the far right.

The Pelosi's of the world? What makes here a far right commy? Because she is from California? I see that you hate the media but you sure regurgitate its talking points! Please give me her platform and the major points of her agenda that make her a Pinko Liberal.

She is a married woman, mother and grandmother. I think America can handle moderate Democrats anyday better than immoral, hypocritical Bible Thumpers trying to impose there religious beliefs into others homes. All the while rubber stamping in the party line.

[phins fan]

Try doing things the way most of us have to WORK for it, learn the rules and study then get it on your OWN merits.




i can here a distant chat growing louder......."affirmative action" "affirmative action"

[WreckDiver]

Wayward, moves like that will gather support form her fellow democrats when she needs it most.

[WreckDiver]

i can here a distant chat growing louder......."affirmative action" "affirmative action"



He's not black!

[jackpine savage]

On the radio she said that the Dems are going to wait until the Baker-Hamilton report is publicly released before deciding on what actions to take. sounds like they are going to take elements from that and some of the ideas that Joe Biden put forth in his plan. What has Bush done to make this war work? You guys keep talking about what will the Dems do, well they won't take control of Congress until January, what is the presdient going to do in the mean time? Bush has had his head so far up his ass he has been counting the teeth in his mouth, lets see what he will be doing over the next 3 months.

[Kahuna]

The sources said the 61-year-old Ms. Harman, regarded as the best informed House Democrat on intelligence and technology issues, angered the liberal Ms. Pelosi by supporting the Bush administration’s policies on defense issues, particularly the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act. They said Ms. Pelosi has rebuffed lobbyists in the pro-Israel community and defense industry that sought a chairmanship for Ms. Harman.



"If Nancy Pelosi's apparent determination to deny Jane Harman the chairmanship of the House Intelligence Committee to appease the Black Caucus is any indication, Democratic control is not going to be good news for those who believe in competent oversight of the national-security apparatus," said Loren Thompson, a defense analyst at the Lexington Institute.

So instead we are going to have an impeached federal judge who doesn't know shit.


Like I said " at whatever the cost".

[bgbill]

The sources said the 61-year-old Ms. Harman, regarded as the best informed House Democrat on intelligence and technology issues, angered the liberal Ms. Pelosi by supporting the Bush administration’s policies on defense issues, particularly the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act. They said Ms. Pelosi has rebuffed lobbyists in the pro-Israel community and defense industry that sought a chairmanship for Ms. Harman.



"If Nancy Pelosi's apparent determination to deny Jane Harman the chairmanship of the House Intelligence Committee to appease the Black Caucus is any indication, Democratic control is not going to be good news for those who believe in competent oversight of the national-security apparatus," said Loren Thompson, a defense analyst at the Lexington Institute.

So instead we are going to have an impeached federal judge who doesn't know shit.


Like I said " at whatever the cost".

Typical of the Democrats.

[phins fan]

the dems are considering advice from Dr. George Tiller of Kansas......."Abort the war!"

[jackpine savage]

That would be a bad move, Harman is a pretty smart woman

[lens]

Typical of the Democrats.

Man, they have not even taken control yet and everyone is already way over speculating. Quotes here, quotes there and not even factual sources. But we have gone to being a country who does not care to learn from the past, but will try and predict the future! WTF?

If the Republicans tried to interpret and speculate this much about Iraq in 2003, well.....We might not have gone in. :rolleyes:

But just like their leader old Dubya, always late to the game.

[phins fan]

.....we'll be fightin the war on our soil instead of theirs, just you wait and see

[jackpine savage]

Well then its a good thing you have a boat, they don't like the water prefer the sand.

[phins fan]

....the radical islamist are lickin' their chops.........

[phins fan]

Well then its a good thing you have a boat, they don't like the water prefer the sand.
:lol: and a fast one at that

[stickitfishy]

So its ok for SOME people to use there name to get into or out of something but only if you are from the far left?

Try doing things the way most of us have to WORK for it, learn the rules and study then get it on your OWN merits.


You have done plenty of people bashing yourself.

Dude, I had to take an aptitude test with 42 other people for 20 seats in the Jan. class. I aced it. Many did not do so well on the math part. Now I have to be interviewed by a panel to be accepted. My father, his father, my uncle and a couple other relatives have or are in the local. They have done alot for the union and I'm sure sharing the same last name will not hurt me, but I don't need the name to get in. By the way, my father has been an electrician for 41 years, has owned his own biz in the past, has been superintendent on huge projects ( Water treatment, wastewater treatment, bridges etc.) and has his journeyman, masters and unlimited licenses. It would be absolutely stupid of me to not go into business with someone with as much knowledge as him. We wil probably just do service work to start with as it is fetching $100+ an hour and most ABC trained electricians do not have the skills to do that sort of work well!

[bikewrench]

They were for the war, before they were against it.

But the way they are acting is typical of a Democrat.

I'm a little late to this 'discussion' but he is my $0.02. The Dems were not in charge when we went to war. Going to war was not their idea. They were fed the line of BS from the war criminals in the White House whose idea it was. They simply supported their 'leader'. If you all remember correctly, the UN weapons inspector Hans Blix was adamant for weeks that he needed more time to look for WMD's. Just before the war started he was adamant that there were none. Before he could finish and prove this fact the insane war hawks launched. In the interest of bipartisanship, I don't blame 'normal' republicans, I believe that B43 and his crew are truly insane and do not represent mainstream conservatives, maybe I'm wrong.

[bgbill]

Dude, I had to take an aptitude test with 42 other people for 20 seats in the Jan. class. I aced it. Many did not do so well on the math part. Now I have to be interviewed by a panel to be accepted. My father, his father, my uncle and a couple other relatives have or are in the local. They have done alot for the union and I'm sure sharing the same last name will not hurt me, but I don't need the name to get in. By the way, my father has been an electrician for 41 years, has owned his own biz in the past, has been superintendent on huge projects ( Water treatment, wastewater treatment, bridges etc.) and has his journeyman, masters and unlimited licenses. It would be absolutely stupid of me to not go into business with someone with as much knowledge as him. We wil probably just do service work to start with as it is fetching $100+ an hour and most ABC trained electricians do not have the skills to do that sort of work well!

Are you getting your State Electrical Contractors License?

BTW there is no requiremnt to be in a Union in Florida, it is a Right to work state.

What benefit do you get being in the electrical union, if you have your own business?

[stickitfishy]

.....we'll be fightin the war on our soil instead of theirs, just you wait and see

And IF this happens, it will only be because of the Bush's who invaded Iraq twice! If it wasn't for daddy Bush, there would not have been a WTC attack in the first place! Why is it that you Republicans always want to control everyone, everywhere? A prime example would be BgBill deleting one of my threads because I pissed him off and he has no rebuttal so now he uses his influence to get back at me. CHILDISH! :lol:

[bikewrench]

300 Billion dollars. 3000 military dead. 25,000 maimed. Extermely damaged international political capital. Increased terrorist threat. Decreased stability in the middle east. Military stretched too thin. Loss of political capital at home. Zero positive results. How could it possibly be worse? How can it even be defended? If I were a Republican I would want b43's head on a plate for the damage he has done to his party and his country. Nancy P. says that impeachment is off the table. That can only be because it serves her purpose to have him there for two more years, maybe as a constant reminder of what will happen if we elect another repub in '08. If Bush were smart he would resign and fade away, hoping we will 'forget' and the GOP won't have him as a 'poster boy' in '08.

[WreckDiver]

Dude, I had to take an aptitude test with 42 other people for 20 seats in the Jan. class. I aced it. Many did not do so well on the math part. Now I have to be interviewed by a panel to be accepted. My father, his father, my uncle and a couple other relatives have or are in the local. They have done alot for the union and I'm sure sharing the same last name will not hurt me, but I don't need the name to get in. By the way, my father has been an electrician for 41 years, has owned his own biz in the past, has been superintendent on huge projects ( Water treatment, wastewater treatment, bridges etc.) and has his journeyman, masters and unlimited licenses. It would be absolutely stupid of me to not go into business with someone with as much knowledge as him. We wil probably just do service work to start with as it is fetching $100+ an hour and most ABC trained electricians do not have the skills to do that sort of work well!



I know some electricians over here and they make some serious money. I have actually given it some thought for my self.


You do realize that I was just bustin your chops right?

[stickitfishy]

Are you getting your State Electrical Contractors License?

BTW there is no requiremnt to be in a Union in Florida, it is a Right to work state.

What benefit do you get being in the electrical union, if you have your own business?

I'll be getting ALL my licenses in time. I was an apprentice long ago but will be following through with it this time now that I am older and wiser and have a plan. You are right, Florida is a right to work state but that does not apply under a union contract. Which means nobody can fire me unless they have very good cause and can prove it. It's called workers rights!

The benefit of going union versus non is the fact that I have rights as a worker. The training is far superior to that which you get at Vo-Tech (ABC). The difficult jobs, even in Florida will be given to the Union shops since union craftsman are more highly trained. I will learn alot more than how to wire a house or a building. The pay is higher. $22.39 hr for journeyman in Tampa. I could travel to jobs across the U.S. and work for much higher wages and benefits. My uncle has done this alot and made a killing. What's $38 hr x 7 12's with time and a half after 35 hours and double time after 60 with $9 an hour going to pension? I have options going union, not nearly as many, non.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

The Dems don't have enough majority t acomplish anything without some consensus the comittee chairs could be a problem if the spend their time playing politics. Pilosi is pretty much screwed because she'll jepeardize the next election for the party if she is to extreme(the democratic party just took a step back towards the center) and her constituents will vote her out if she doesn't go to extremes. If the democratic party moves away from the far left and starts offering some ideas we'll all be better off.

[jackpine savage]

I'll drink to that :beer: :beer:

[roy_nexus_6]

I heard Pelosi in an interview today say that it's not a war, it's a"situation" & you can define victory any way you want to.

Hell, I didn't know it was gonna be that easy to solve.

Looks like we are back to the "meaning of IT" . Remember that one by the Great Stainmaker ?

[The Collector]

I'll be getting ALL my licenses in time. I was an apprentice long ago but will be following through with it this time now that I am older and wiser and have a plan. You are right, Florida is a right to work state but that does not apply under a union contract. Which means nobody can fire me unless they have very good cause and can prove it. It's called workers rights!

The benefit of going union versus non is the fact that I have rights as a worker. The training is far superior to that which you get at Vo-Tech (ABC). The difficult jobs, even in Florida will be given to the Union shops since union craftsman are more highly trained. I will learn alot more than how to wire a house or a building. The pay is higher. $22.39 hr for journeyman in Tampa. I could travel to jobs across the U.S. and work for much higher wages and benefits. My uncle has done this alot and made a killing. What's $38 hr x 7 12's with time and a half after 35 hours and double time after 60 with $9 an hour going to pension? I have options going union, not nearly as many, non.
Is it 'difficult' jobs that go to unions or is it mainly government jobs? You mentioned water treatment plants, etc... the reason they can hire union people is because they do not pay the bill, taxpayors do. It is OUR money that pays those ridiculous union wages.
You call it 'workers' rights'. I call it yet another form of welfare.

PS. Don't say anything mean to me or I'll ask BGBILL to delete it. :thumps:

[stickitfishy]

Why do you think government jobs go to unions? Because the workers know what the hell they are doing. It is cheaper to do a job right the first time than to F it up and have to do it over not to mention the liability of an F-d up job. And if you think $22.39 an hour as an electrician in Tampa is alot of money with the 5 years of training required then you really are a cheap ASS. By the way, how much do you make an hour and how much training have you had? This ain't no mexican job, don't think they'd make it through the interview process! :D :lol: :thumps:

[jackpine savage]

licensed master electricians make 100 per hour up here, course we are godless liberals

[bgbill]

And IF this happens, it will only be because of the Bush's who invaded Iraq twice! If it wasn't for daddy Bush, there would not have been a WTC attack in the first place! Why is it that you Republicans always want to control everyone, everywhere? A prime example would be BgBill deleting one of my threads because I pissed him off and he has no rebuttal so now he uses his influence to get back at me. CHILDISH! :lol:

I deleted your thread because it was a TROLL post.

[The Collector]

Why do you think government jobs go to unions? Because the workers know what the hell they are doing. It is cheaper to do a job right the first time than to F it up and have to do it over not to mention the liability of an F-d up job.

Ever hear of the Davis-Bacon Act? It ensures the welfare programs continue. Quality is not a factor, making sure anyone who shows up can afford a nice new truck is the only factor.

And if you think $22.39 an hour as an electrician in Tampa is alot of money with the 5 years of training required then you really are a cheap ASS.

I am not a cheap ass, I like competition. If I am going to buy something or hire someone I want value. I buy all my dive gear at a local dive shop because I think value is determined by price, quality, AND service. I pay more up front for the item, but every time I walk into my shop with ANY problem, they handle it quickly and give loaners or whatever. In my mind, that is VALUE.
I did hire the cheapest contractor and have to put up with all kinds of crap because of it :eek: :eek: (This is an inside joke about a fellow Spearboard member and not to be taken seriously.... except by him :thumps: )

By the way, how much do you make an hour and how much training have you had? This ain't no mexican job, don't think they'd make it through the interview process! :D :lol: :thumps:

As an electrician, I have had no training. This is why I am not an electrician. As far as how much I make an hour, I have no idea because I own my business so I just work alot and whatever is left over after payroll and bills, I get.

This ain't no mexican job, don't think they'd make it through the interview process! :D :lol: :thumps:

I thought you guys were against our elitist attitude? Or is that only when it suits you personally?

[bgbill]

I'll be getting ALL my licenses in time. I was an apprentice long ago but will be following through with it this time now that I am older and wiser and have a plan. You are right, Florida is a right to work state but that does not apply under a union contract. Which means nobody can fire me unless they have very good cause and can prove it. It's called workers rights!

The benefit of going union versus non is the fact that I have rights as a worker. The training is far superior to that which you get at Vo-Tech (ABC). The difficult jobs, even in Florida will be given to the Union shops since union craftsman are more highly trained. I will learn alot more than how to wire a house or a building. The pay is higher. $22.39 hr for journeyman in Tampa. I could travel to jobs across the U.S. and work for much higher wages and benefits. My uncle has done this alot and made a killing. What's $38 hr x 7 12's with time and a half after 35 hours and double time after 60 with $9 an hour going to pension? I have options going union, not nearly as many, non.

You must be getting tired of working at Starbucks.

So now you will be suckling off of the government's teat, because you can't survive in the "Real" world and you have to use your daddy's name to help you get into a Union.

It figures you are a Democrat.

As far as the License, the Union will not be able to help you get your State Contractors License, that is something you will have to do on your own, and if you do get it, and start your own business, you will not be so union friendly anymore.

[bgbill]

The difficult jobs, even in Florida will be given to the Union shops since union craftsman are more highly trained.

Coffee Boy,

Are you saying that the Contractors on non government jobs are going to be hiring Union Electricians?

The only time a Contractor is going to hire a Ubion worker is when we have to.

Because I can assure you I would not hire any Union Labor, because in my experience, from when I was an Electrician 20 years ago, the only Union guys on the job (Otis Elevator) were the laziest workers and complained the most, were always threatening to walk off the job, they were completely useless.

[stickitfishy]

You must be getting tired of working at Starbucks.

So now you will be suckling off of the government's teat, because you can't survive in the "Real" world and you have to use your daddy's name to help you get into a Union.

It figures you are a Democrat.

As far as the License, the Union will not be able to help you get your State Contractors License, that is something you will have to do on your own, and if you do get it, and start your own business, you will not be so union friendly anymore.

I don't work at Starbucks jackenheimer. I have vending machines, do you know what those are? You obviously can't read very well, maybe you should go back to high school because I believe as a child " You were left behind." I don't need my name to help me, my IQ is enough. As far as the license, duh, thanks for the clarification. I'll take my journeymans test before I'm even out of apprenticeship so I can get my masters after I top out. Then I'll will get my unlimited license. I can make plenty of money having a union shop and paying people a liveable wage.

[stickitfishy]

Coffee Boy,

Are you saying that the Contractors on non government jobs are going to be hiring Union Electricians?

Sometimes



The only time a Contractor is going to hire a Ubion worker is when we have to.

Wrong again, when I'm working at the Big Bend powerhouse (owned by TECO) I'll do my best to make sure I disrupt your power. :lol:



Because I can assure you I would not hire any Union Labor, because in my experience, from when I was an Electrician 20 years ago, the only Union guys on the job (Otis Elevator) were the laziest workers and complained the most, were always threatening to walk off the job, they were completely useless

As are most of your posts! :lol:

[bgbill]

I don't work at Starbucks jackenheimer. I have vending machines, do you know what those are? You obviously can't read very well, maybe you should go back to high school because I believe as a child " You were left behind." I don't need my name to help me, my IQ is enough. As far as the license, duh, thanks for the clarification. I'll take my journeymans test before I'm even out of apprenticeship so I can get my masters after I top out. Then I'll will get my unlimited license. I can make plenty of money having a union shop and paying people a liveable wage.

Mr. Starbucks,

How can you substitute real world experience and get a journeymans card before you are out of your apprenticeship?

When I was an electrician (NON UNION) 20 years ago, you couldn't just go to school and take a test to get your journeymans card.

There are certain things that you can't learn just by going to school.

You are the one who brought up the fact you were using your name to help you with the Union.

I see from previous posts of yours, you are quite adept at working the system, so I am sure you will be the typical union employee.

[jackpine savage]

In residential construction, which is what I do, I have never met nor would I hire a union tradesman. This isn't because I am hostile to unions, they are a mixed bag but were very purposeful at one time, its because they would charge more than a non-union person and not necessarily do a better job. As somone said earlier its all about competition, if you have multiple choices you have better choices. I suppose they are necessary when dealing when a big corporation but unless you plan on workinig for one I ould suggest you get licensed and work as an independent

[jackpine savage]

I believe apprenticeship takes 5 years and has to be under the supervision of a master. Upon completing this you become a journeyman, can't remember the time frame needed to go from journeyman to masters but it isn't by simply taking a test.

[bgbill]

Wrong again, when I'm working at the Big Bend powerhouse (owned by TECO) I'll do my best to make sure I disrupt your power. :lol:

That figures you would sabotage a power plant. :rolleyes:

That reminds me of another lazy guy that used to work with me, he used to work at a GM plant that made bumber covers for Firebirds and Trans Ams, every time the line went down it would take them 4 hours to fix it, and he would get a 4 hour break, so he would sabotage the conveyer, so it would jamb up.

He thought he was reall funny, but the plant eventually closed, and he lost his job, so I guess he really showed GM.

[bgbill]

And IF this happens, it will only be because of the Bush's who invaded Iraq twice! If it wasn't for daddy Bush, there would not have been a WTC attack in the first place! Why is it that you Republicans always want to control everyone, everywhere? A prime example would be BgBill deleting one of my threads because I pissed him off and he has no rebuttal so now he uses his influence to get back at me. CHILDISH! :lol:

So now it is Bush's fault that the WTC was attacked? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You are definately off the deep end, you really should get back on your meds.

[dagodiver]

I'll be getting ALL my licenses in time. I was an apprentice long ago but will be following through with it this time now that I am older and wiser and have a plan. You are right, Florida is a right to work state but that does not apply under a union contract. Which means nobody can fire me unless they have very good cause and can prove it. It's called workers rights!

The benefit of going union versus non is the fact that I have rights as a worker. The training is far superior to that which you get at Vo-Tech (ABC). The difficult jobs, even in Florida will be given to the Union shops since union craftsman are more highly trained. I will learn alot more than how to wire a house or a building. The pay is higher. $22.39 hr for journeyman in Tampa. I could travel to jobs across the U.S. and work for much higher wages and benefits. My uncle has done this alot and made a killing. What's $38 hr x 7 12's with time and a half after 35 hours and double time after 60 with $9 an hour going to pension? I have options going union, not nearly as many, non.





I dont like BS threads like this BUT WOW are you in for a huge suprise if you think for a minute any of that is true.
I have been a tool and die maker/machinist for the last 20 years in SW florida which is pretty rare and I get all the union BS talkers from up north that dont know shit about nothing and have some crap card that dont mean shit to me.
I on the other hand have NO education to speak of make very nice money have no union to answer to and there is NOTHING I cant make or design.
Dont think for a minute there is some easy way to learn a trade and make big bucks without doing your time. Schools do not teach real world skills for all trades. I just let another union card holder go the other day as he had all the tools and all the talk but because he was in the union he was only qualified to do one particular job and that does not cut it in job shops like there are in the florida area.

Good luck with you new venture's :thumps:


Dago.

[Kahuna]

I have had booths at events in convention centers in Philly, Orlando, Atlanta, Cleveland, New York, Chicago, and a few others. I have never met a bunch of more rotten thieven bastards in my life than that union bunch. And the funny thing was they stood around and collected money from us and hired rent a bums to do what had to be done. No wonder the Northeast is broke.

[dagodiver]

I have had booths at events in convention centers in Philly, Orlando, Atlanta, Cleveland, New York, Chicago, and a few others. I have never met a bunch of more rotten thieven bastards in my life than that union bunch. And the funny thing was they stood around and collected money from us and hired rent a bums to do what had to be done. No wonder the Northeast is broke.


Yep.!
I asked the last guy looking for a job why he left the great white north and he said the plant shut down....I said really what did you do and what was your wage he said that he installed lug nuts all day and made 37.70 per hour.! :eek:
WOW I cant believe the plant shut down.


Dago.

[jackpine savage]

Who says we are broke, maybe you are thinking about the mid-west most of the jobs up here are in bio tech and finance. Unions represent maybe 15 % of the workforce, they are a shell of their former self.

[stickitfishy]

Mr. Starbucks,

How can you substitute real world experience and get a journeymans card before you are out of your apprenticeship?

There is a difference between your union journeyman's card and the state of Florida's. I can get a state journeyman's card with I believe 3 years experience and a test. Much easier to get the state card for u non-union types.

When I was an electrician (NON UNION) 20 years ago, you couldn't just go to school and take a test to get your journeymans card.

And you still can't.

There are certain things that you can't learn just by going to school.

You should know.

You are the one who brought up the fact you were using your name to help you with the Union.

I'll admit, my name will not hurt me, but I don't need it!

I see from previous posts of yours, you are quite adept at working the system, so I am sure you will be the typical union employee

I can't hear you to good while your feet are in your mouth.

[stickitfishy]

I believe apprenticeship takes 5 years and has to be under the supervision of a master. Upon completing this you become a journeyman, can't remember the time frame needed to go from journeyman to masters but it isn't by simply taking a test.

Jouneyman card from the state and from the union are 2 diff things. After you get your state journeyman's card her in FL, it is 2 years before you can get your masters.

[jackpine savage]

2 years to get a masters electrician card, you have to be kidding me. We aren't talking union, right?

[stickitfishy]

So now it is Bush's fault that the WTC was attacked? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You are definately off the deep end, you really should get back on your meds.

It is papa Bush's fault. Why? Because we invaded Iraq and disrespected all Muslim beliefs and customs while doing so. This is after we continually support whatever Israel does no matter what. You see, the 1 Billion muslims do not want to be westernized. Why should they? Have you seen what has happened to this country since your parents or grandparents were kids? People used to sleep with unlocked doors. Now you have to be weary of EVERYONE or they will steal you blind. It's a f-ing shame. Bin Laden said the reason for a holy war was because of our invasion, did u forget that? It is just the Republican way to go stick their nose in people's business and make them do it their way!

[stickitfishy]

2 years to get a masters electrician card, you have to be kidding me. We aren't talking union, right?

Union apprenticeship is 5 years and that is when u get a union journeymans card. State of Florida journeymans card u can get in 3 years I believe, then 2 years after that u can get your State masters. So theoretically, I could get my state card as a 3rd year apprentice, top out and get my union card and my masters immediately. State has more lax requirements than the union, but you have to have the state licenses to be in biz not the union. Reason for going to the union is better, more involved training, being treated fairly and better pay!

[Kahuna]

You have no idea have bad it was. This was 10 years ago. I cost $200 a day to rent a 10x10 piece of carpet. If you needed a 110 outlet. It was $150 an hour one hour min. for a union electrician to set you up. They shut down the elevators and would not let you use the loading docks ( stand in line it will be a couple of hours). You were not allowed anything brought in that you could not carry. We had security guards walking behind us making sure nothing touched the floor. That's the extreme I have seen it carried to. I think unions had a place and still do in certain areas. But I have seen them become criminal. And one of my experiences was in Orlando, FL.

[stickitfishy]

I dont like BS threads like this BUT WOW are you in for a huge suprise if you think for a minute any of that is true.
I have been a tool and die maker/machinist for the last 20 years in SW florida which is pretty rare and I get all the union BS talkers from up north that dont know shit about nothing and have some crap card that dont mean shit to me.
I on the other hand have NO education to speak of make very nice money have no union to answer to and there is NOTHING I cant make or design.
Dont think for a minute there is some easy way to learn a trade and make big bucks without doing your time. Schools do not teach real world skills for all trades. I just let another union card holder go the other day as he had all the tools and all the talk but because he was in the union he was only qualified to do one particular job and that does not cut it in job shops like there are in the florida area.

Good luck with you new venture's :thumps:


Dago.

There is a huge difference between union people up north and in Florida. In Florida they work much harder and are paid less. My uncle who has traveled alot for more $$ has often been told to slow down etc. while working in places like NYC or Boston. Why? So he does not make them look bad. I'm going union because of the superior training, the better pay and the ability to travel around and make lots more $$$. It's like this Dago. Tons of electricians can wire a house but not many can do service work up to a clients specs and that is where the money is. Plus, my father is the most brilliant man I know and this was his suggestion.

[Kahuna]

Talk to any I MEAN ANY New York Union member and he will tell how he "got over" on the system. If you tell me differnet yu are lying.

[aaron proffitt]

Even as a gov. labor union leader I have to agree,Kahuna.

[stickitfishy]

The money they make in NY is a dream and not representative of what I will be. I don't think $22.39 an hour with 5 years training is that much, do you?

[aaron proffitt]

Not in NY .Course,if you turn down what NY offers you your either a fool or a troll.

[El Cid]

All I gotta say is thank God we didn't have the internet back in Roman times when wars were waged depending if the Emperor woke up on the wrong side of an orgy or not! People used to drink lots of wine and argue politics, which led to drunken happiness or murders, which usually shut one side up permanently. The internet just perpetuates constant BS!

But I really like the debates here though, don't get me wrong. I use both sides in my American Foreign Policy class every week and it's pretty helpful to hear a Democratic side occasionally, since I roost with lots of war hawks and hooah-daddies.

[The Collector]

The money they make in NY is a dream and not representative of what I will be. I don't think $22.39 an hour with 5 years training is that much, do you?


Reason for going to the union is better, more involved training, being treated fairly and better pay!

So, joining the union you will get better training and better pay but you will be 'stuck' at $22.39 an hour once you accomplish your 5 years training?

If that is true, why not go through the 'abc' thing you mentioned and go straight to the $22.39 limit? Since it doesn't matter in Florida. Are your work principles that great????

I am only guessing here, bit I imagine you expect a great deal more by joining the union ....... if not, after your wonderful training, I would be happy to hire you full time at that rate and bill you out at only slightly more :rolleyes:

[The Collector]

All I gotta say is thank God we didn't have the internet back in Roman times when wars were waged depending if the Emperor woke up on the wrong side of an orgy or not! People used to drink lots of wine and argue politics, which led to drunken happiness or murders, which usually shut one side up permanently. The internet just perpetuates constant BS!

But I really like the debates here though, don't get me wrong. I use both sides in my American Foreign Policy class every week and it's pretty helpful to hear a Democratic side occasionally, since I roost with lots of war hawks and hooah-daddies.
Internet is great!!!! No worry about violence because it now costs too much to fly to the west coast or northeast to murder people who don't understand logic :eek: :eek:

[Kahuna]

Stickitfishy how old are you? If you are just getting your feet wet don't argue your position so hard. You have the right to present it and give your reasons. But from what I have read you have little or no experience in the job market. Maybe you are just upset at lack of being able to get a job that pays big bucks. Business owners hire people based on the skill and product they bring to their business.

My personal opinion is you have what is called criminal think. In other words something for nothing. You think you deserve more than people are willing to pay you. So, you turn to this magical union where you make much more than you produce.

[stickitfishy]

So, joining the union you will get better training and better pay but you will be 'stuck' at $22.39 an hour once you accomplish your 5 years training?

If that is true, why not go through the 'abc' thing you mentioned and go straight to the $22.39 limit? Since it doesn't matter in Florida. Are your work principles that great????

I am only guessing here, bit I imagine you expect a great deal more by joining the union ....... if not, after your wonderful training, I would be happy to hire you full time at that rate and bill you out at only slightly more :rolleyes:

By going union, I wil have better training and many more options. I could travel to any state with work and get on some time jobs at a much higher wage than here. Couldn't do that with ABC. The union benefits are much better than non-union too. The main reason for going union versus ABC is the skills I will learn and the options I will have. I would like to start a biz with my father as soon as I am out, but I may have to travel to make lots of $$ instead for awhile. You never know!

[The Collector]

Stickitfishy how old are you? My personal opinion is you have what is called criminal think. In other words something for nothing. You think you deserve more than people are willing to pay you. So, you turn to this magical union where you make much more than you produce.


Kahuna.. you are beginning to show your age. It is not'criminal think', it is Democrat Think.
Welcome to the 21st century. :lol:

[The Collector]

By going union, I wil have better training and many more options. I could travel to any state with work and get on some time jobs at a much higher wage than here. Couldn't do that with ABC. The union benefits are much better than non-union too. The main reason for going union versus ABC is the skills I will learn and the options I will have. I would like to start a biz with my father as soon as I am out, but I may have to travel to make lots of $$ instead for awhile. You never know!

Do you have any clue as to why you 'may have to travel'?? Because Florida is smart enough to not have unions!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I read a great quote that is probably someon else's signature but I am going to make it mine as well:

Stupid should hurt.

[Kahuna]

Sorry, good point.

[stickitfishy]

Stickitfishy how old are you? If you are just getting your feet wet don't argue your position so hard. You have the right to present it and give your reasons. But from what I have read you have little or no experience in the job market. Maybe you are just upset at lack of being able to get a job that pays big bucks. Business owners hire people based on the skill and product they bring to their business.

My personal opinion is you have what is called criminal think. In other words something for nothing. You think you deserve more than people are willing to pay you. So, you turn to this magical union where you make much more than you produce.

My personal opinion is that by naming yourself KAHUNA, you are full of yourself and shit! :lol:

Why would I not try to secure the most income from the work I do? Answer me that.

[stickitfishy]

Do you have any clue as to why you 'may have to travel'?? Because Florida is smart enough to not have unions!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I read a great quote that is probably someon else's signature but I am going to make it mine as well:

Stupid should hurt.

Florida does have unions and I would not have to travel. I would choose to, to secure more $$ if I did not have my own biz. And you are right stupid should hurt, seems like you'd need Oxycontin with as much pain as you'd be in.

[stickitfishy]

All I gotta say is thank God we didn't have the internet back in Roman times when wars were waged depending if the Emperor woke up on the wrong side of an orgy or not! People used to drink lots of wine and argue politics, which led to drunken happiness or murders, which usually shut one side up permanently. The internet just perpetuates constant BS!

But I really like the debates here though, don't get me wrong. I use both sides in my American Foreign Policy class every week and it's pretty helpful to hear a Democratic side occasionally, since I roost with lots of war hawks and hooah-daddies.

What is a hooah-daddy?

[Kahuna]

Enough, you are young and its good that you are willing to stand up for what you think. You have that right. Just keep in mind that what you thought at 12 changed at 15 and changed again at 18 and changed again at ? and so on. A very wise man once said you are a liberal with nothing at 20 and a conservative with two kids at 40.

[The Collector]

What is a hooah-daddy?

One of those guys who provide you with the blanket of freedom from under which you spout your nonsense. You should thank them for that.

[100days-a-year]

stickit please feel free to respond but you are now on my ignore list.

You have got to be the biggest idiot I have seen on this board.You cannot present a cogent or lucid viewpoint.Your views are equally abused by conservative,liberal,independent and libertarian.Your posts have shown a remarkable lack of education about history,recent events and life in general.

It is indeed fortunate for you that someone in the past has made sacrifices that you obviously do not have the mental capacity to be grateful for.It is also apparent that if it were not for the interference of other's on your behalf that Darwin would surely claim you.

While some here share similar political views I have never heard anything like the pettiness and vitriolic nonsense you exhibit.

I believe you to be a coward far worse than any Bush may have been,he may have been avoiding possible death using family connections while you appear to be avoiding responsibility and any chance of growing up to be a man...capable of controlling his own destiny thru fortitude and hard work.

Your chance at being a man respected by his peers for his hard work and ability to express himself clearly despite differences of opinion is slipping away.Please don't grow up to be the petty little whiner in every crowd that lives a miserable existence looking for offense everywhere and secretly hated pitied and laughed at..cause you are headed in that direction.

I wish you the best at whatever may happen at work but it will never buy you respect or happiness,that comes from accomplishment.

[El Cid]

Enough, you are young and its good that you are willing to stand up for what you think. You have that right. Just keep in mind that what you thought at 12 changed at 15 and changed again at 18 and changed again at ? and so on. A very wise man once said you are a liberal with nothing at 20 and a conservative with two kids at 40.

That's very true, my outlook on a lot of things has changed dramatically in the past four years, and even in the past four months based on my experiences here, which differ greatly from others in my age group.

I'm a republican, but that's neither here nor there. I was just making the observation that the political threads here on spearboard seem to get crazy and we move from politcal discourse to personal-bashings and the point is lost. Out of the 5 or however many pages this thread is, it seems that the political disucssion takes up maybe a 2-3 pages, and then the rest is getting on one another. My point was that scholarly debate is one thing, and then sophomoric arguments for arguments sake is another.

PS: Hooah is an army term. It's derived from the acronym HUA, "Heard, Understood, Acknowledged", and has developed into an affirmative response, ie "You got that?" "hooah", etc. Hooah-daddies are what we call cadets who are gung-ho military guys, the ones who get their rocks off doing ruck runs, Ranger Challenge, and other moto (motivating) shit. Generally these guys are Republicans, and fear for their paychecks now that Dems run Congress!

[stickitfishy]

stickit please feel free to respond but you are now on my ignore list.

You have got to be the biggest idiot I have seen on this board.You cannot present a cogent or lucid viewpoint.Your views are equally abused by conservative,liberal,independent and libertarian.Your posts have shown a remarkable lack of education about history,recent events and life in general.

It is indeed fortunate for you that someone in the past has made sacrifices that you obviously do not have the mental capacity to be grateful for.It is also apparent that if it were not for the interference of other's on your behalf that Darwin would surely claim you.

While some here share similar political views I have never heard anything like the pettiness and vitriolic nonsense you exhibit.

I believe you to be a coward far worse than any Bush may have been,he may have been avoiding possible death using family connections while you appear to be avoiding responsibility and any chance of growing up to be a man...capable of controlling his own destiny thru fortitude and hard work.

Your chance at being a man respected by his peers for his hard work and ability to express himself clearly despite differences of opinion is slipping away.Please don't grow up to be the petty little whiner in every crowd that lives a miserable existence looking for offense everywhere and secretly hated pitied and laughed at..cause you are headed in that direction.

I wish you the best at whatever may happen at work but it will never buy you respect or happiness,that comes from accomplishment.

You babble all this and then put me on ignore! Wow, you truly are a pussy. I have never even spoken to you. You sir are the coward!

[Bill McIntyre]

Damn it guys. Can't we discuss principles and disagree without personal attacks?

[stickitfishy]

Hey Bill I would like to, but this guy goes after me and then puts me on ignore. That is just cowardly! :mad:

[El Cid]

Damn it guys. Can't we discuss principles and disagree without personal attacks?

Thank you Bill. And also, a big thank you for your service as a Marine fighter pilot!! A friend of mine is going through school right now hopefully for the F/A-18 airframe, and I have another one on deck ready to go after graduation! I love the pic of your jet, we have an Air Force F-4 on our parade deck, what a big, badass plane that is!

[bgbill]

According to stickitfishy's previous posts and his profile, he is 33, and apparently slept 15 hours a day and lived off of credit cards while he and his wife waited for a Workers Comp. settlement due to some "toxic mold" issue.

He is now a "Gourmet Coffee Vendor" I thought that meant he at least had a real job working at Starbucks, but apparently he has those Coffee Vending Machines, like you see at Tire Kingdom, I never thought the crap you bought from a vending machine was "Gourmet" but one mans junk is another mans treasure.

Now he is going to use his daddy's name to help him get into the electrical union, apparently he tried that years ago, but it didn't work out, but this time he said he is really going to give it his best shot.

He seems to think he can take a short cut and go to school to learn how to be an electrician, and then he can just sit around at the union hall drinking gourmet coffee while he is waiting to get service work.

You would think by the age of 33 the guy would have his shit together, but I guess the money is running out on his WC settlement, so now he is looking for the next teat to suckle off of.

I would think if stickitfishy is such a superior electrician with his union training, he would just get his State Electrical Contractors license and start his own business, but the problem with that is, he would actually have to work for his money.

BTW stickitfishy, do you ever shoot fish? I don't recall any pictures of big fish being posted by you.

[WreckDiver]

Damn it guys. Can't we discuss principles and disagree without personal attacks?



People that live there lives hating others cannot have a civil discussion, name calling is what they are. :(

[Ironhed]

How did we get from the topic of how the dems are going to solve this Iraq thing to labor unions in the electrical field in the south.
Stick it fishy I am glad your going to get into a better line of work than serving coffee or filling the chocolate ho ho's in the vending slot. I am wondering once the dems have us pull out of Iraq when the next disaster on our soil will happen. it isn't a matter of "if" but rather "when". Will it be a biological weapon used? will it be another building attack? or a plane? I can say it will be something and it won't be in Iraq if we leave there. Cut and run, I can see it already just a matter of time. I am guessing sometime in early spring of 08 that we will be completely out of there and within a year of pullout we will be reliving 9/11 again you wait and see.

[bikewrench]

How did we get from the topic of how the dems are going to solve this Iraq thing to labor unions in the electrical field in the south.
Stick it fishy I am glad your going to get into a better line of work than serving coffee or filling the chocolate ho ho's in the vending slot. I am wondering once the dems have us pull out of Iraq when the next disaster on our soil will happen. it isn't a matter of "if" but rather "when". Will it be a biological weapon used? will it be another building attack? or a plane? I can say it will be something and it won't be in Iraq if we leave there. Cut and run, I can see it already just a matter of time. I am guessing sometime in early spring of 08 that we will be completely out of there and within a year of pullout we will be reliving 9/11 again you wait and see.

Please explain how being involved in Iraq right now is preventing that attack?
How about taking some of that $300,000,000,000 spent there and beef up port and air security? How about creating a functional immigration policy to control who is here? How about working diplomatically with middleast countries in order to reduce terrorist threat? How about continuing the covert, legal and ecconomic pursuit of known terrorists and sympathizers? How about a plan that focuses on things like this instead of the insanely useless waste of money, men, and women that Bush the war criminal has given us?

[inletsurf]

Ironhed, you are one of a kind, man. Really.

[Ironhed]

being in Iraq, has given the extremist a reason to stay there and try to keep creating constant termoil in that region. if they were to divert their efforts from there we would gain a stronhold over there and that they cannot let happen. If we prevail over there then it sends a message to the whole middle east not just baghdad. just wait and see is all i have to say, the plan is in motion already. I forsee the democrats winning in 08 because of simple minded americans that do not see the big picture such as the ones on this site that are constantly rallying on the hate bush bandwagon. I see the next president pulling out of Iraq, I see people becoming more off guard with a false sense of security and I see another tragedy. If we were to spend 300,000,000,000 on security over here I doubt you would want to live in such a society. might seem more like prison to me.

[Ironhed]

Ironhed, you are one of a kind, man. Really.
nice avatar is that your grandpa cheech? :D

[inletsurf]

Do you actually think about this stuff before you write it, or is it like improv comedy? Seriously, Andy, for someone who is so sure about whats gonna happen, do you have any credentials, studies, information privy to you and not to the media, experience, or travel abroad to understand with such confidence of what is going to happen?

I think a lot of what you are saying is utterly ridiculous.

[Ironhed]

it might seem that way and let's hope so, for everyone's sake ok. I know we can learn from history though and the history I am talking about wasn't that long ago. we invaded Iraq and left once before without finishing the job. Hellooooooooo do we wanna do it again?

by the way I am as qualified as anyone on this board to speak about this topic because last time I checked none of us are in any kind of "know" more than the rest of us. we are all dished the same shit on tv internet to make our own conclusions from right?

[Wayward Son]

FWIW, the terrorists themselves have written that Iraq is central to their plans.

[inletsurf]

by the way I am as qualified as anyone on this board to speak about this topic because last time I checked none of us are in any kind of "know" more than the rest of us. we are all dished the same shit on tv internet to make our own conclusions from right?

Simply, no, I do not agree. Some of us know how to recognize shit before spewing it. I'll leave it at that.

[bikewrench]

FWIW, the terrorists themselves have written that Iraq is central to their plans.
Yeah, now that we've F'd it all up! Before we got there it was stable at least. And Ironhed, how will improved nuke-u-ler detection devices at shipping ports and bomb detection devices and immigration reform going to make 'the land of the free' less so?
p.s. I'd be very careful about calling others 'simple-minded'.

[inletsurf]

FWIW, the terrorists themselves have written that Iraq is central to their plans.

So what. That is what our intelligence agencies and special forces teams are for. In fact, at this point they may be way more effective than overt occupation. Be more specific, too, there are terrorist groups all over the world, Al Queda is only one of the many. You don't hear about the others in the headlines, do you? Can you reason why?

[bikewrench]

It has been fun but now I am taking my 6 year old boy to Plimoth Plantation (recreation of a 1627 pilgram village) so I can show him some of our history and explain to him how we English whites raped the Indians and stole their land from them 400 years ago. Talk about terrorism. Have a nice day. ;)

[inletsurf]

Ironhed, I don't mean to come off hard. Sorry. Its just I have a hard time with anyone being so assertive with such a volatile subject, making confident predictions on a situation that is like a ball balanced on a needle, it can go many different ways. The thing you, and others, have to know is this: this great country has intelligence agencies that work every hour of every day of every year to assess threats, process them, and mitigate them until the risk of the threats is eliminated. What you hear about is only the tip of the iceberg. 9/11 was a major intelligence failure, and you better believe the great men and women working in those agencies, the military, the special operations teams, will NEVER make that mistake again. Military occupation is not required for effective threat risk mitigation.

[bikewrench]

While you were busy arguing about gun control, gay marrage, stem cell research, abortion, the war, etc GW spent us into a hole that will be hard to get out of, at best.
PM me with your E mail and I will give you (or anyone else thats interested) the full text, but I doubt that you care.
Heres excerpts;
GAO Chief Warns Economic Disaster Looms
the comptroller general of the United States warns a packed hall at Austin's historic Driskill Hotel. "We the people have to rise up to make sure things get changed."
The vast majority of economists and budget analysts agree: The ship of state is on a disastrous course, and will founder on the reefs of economic disaster if nothing is done to correct it.
There's a good reason politicians don't like to talk about the nation's long-term fiscal prospects. The subject is short on political theatrics and long on complicated economics, scary graphs and very big numbers. It reveals serious problems and offers no easy solutions. Anybody who wanted to deal with it seriously would have to talk about raising taxes and cutting benefits, nasty nostrums that might doom any candidate who prescribed them.the fiscal black hole Washington has dug itself, the "demographic tsunami" that will come when the baby boom generation begins retiring and the recklessness of borrowing money from foreign lenders to pay for the operation of the U.S. government.
Their basic message is this: If the United States government conducts business as usual over the next few decades, a national debt that is already $8.5 trillion could reach $46 trillion or more, adjusted for inflation. That's almost as much as the total net worth of every person in America _ Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and those Google guys included.
A hole that big could paralyze the U.S. economy; according to some projections, just the interest payments on a debt that big would be as much as all the taxes the government collects today.
And every year that nothing is done about it, Walker says, the problem grows by $2 trillion to $3 trillion.Why is America so fiscally unprepared for the next century? Like many of its citizens, the United States has spent the last few years racking up debt instead of saving for the future. Foreign lenders _ primarily the central banks of China, Japan and other big U.S. trading partners _ have been eager to lend the government money at low interest rates, making the current $8.5-trillion deficit about as painful as a big balance on a zero-percent credit card.

Great point seatux, too bad it will be wasted over here. I'll add one thing to your info. Substitute the 'future state of the environment' for 'the future state of the economy' and the disastrous effects will be similar.

[Ironhed]

Military occupation is not required for effective threat risk mitigation.
I can agree with that, I have alot of confidence that we employ many people that would lay their life on the line to save mass casualties in this country. I also know we are all human and capable of making mistakes.

[lens]

FWIW, the terrorists themselves have written that Iraq is central to their plans.

Probably now,
But if we had not invaded Iraq, well we all know the answer to that.

I think people need to realize we are not fighting the “so called” terrorist in Iraq. We are stuck in the middle of a Civil War in addition to fighting off a nationalist insurgency.


I heard a good comment last night that made me re-evaluate my own position, not change, but rethink. And if we ever do discuss an exit strategy, this statement to me, is very important.

“No matter when we leave Iraq; Today, tomorrow, a week, a month or Ten years from now. It is going to go into the shitter.” Syria and Iran are just sitting and waiting.

I think this is a fair and pretty accurate statement to make using, history as foresight and past invasion and occupancy cases.

So what difference does it make when we pull out?

We lost the largest amount of Americans in Vietnam "after" Nixon decided to make a “slow” withdrawal. This means the majority died while trying and waiting to leave.

This is a real question I have now!

[junior]

Does anyone still think history will judge Bush favorably? Virtually turning his back on the real problem (Afghanistan), literally destroying a nation (Iraq) to catch one bad dude and burning money by the trailer load in the process. And of course, when taxes inevitably have to be raised to compensate for the debt it's going to be all the democrats' fault?

What is worse, withdraw more quickly, save soldiers lives and admit we made a big mess OR stay the course, get more soldiers killed and pretend as if the whole debacle was legitimate from the outset. Those are essentially the choices. Are there any more options? Kinda late to ask for some help from the rest of the world. Kinda hard to bash the UN and beg for their help at the same time. Bush, and I've said this from day one, is not capable of the level of statesmanship required for the job he holds. If he were, everything good would follow suit. Please review the evidence against him.

[inletsurf]

"we are the ones who carry the guns to the far away lands with the blackened suns, from the smoky narrow minds, the half truth trails and the holy lies..."

[WreckDiver]

How about taking some of that $300,000,000,000 spent there and beef up port and air security?



Yea let's unionize it - they are the well developed professionals that will work there asses of for next to nothing :rolleyes:

[jackpine savage]

Ironhead, you say its a matter of when we get attacked not if we get attacked. If that is the case then remaining in Iraq will do nothing to alleviate that risk, what it will do is eat away at our resources that should be spent on preventing these attacks. If what you say is true then re-electing the Republicans into Congress would have done nothing to alleviate the risk either. If nothing else we will get new ideas with the Dems, the GOP has had enough time to formulate a plan to get us out of this problem, instead the stole money and chased pages. All I can do is hope that the Dems will be more focused on the real threats to this nation than the GOP was.

[phins fan]

.....well at least all of us have one common denominator.......shooting fish......political and religous views aside.......just dont take away our spearfishin!!!

[stickitfishy]

According to stickitfishy's previous posts and his profile, he is 33, and apparently slept 15 hours a day and lived off of credit cards while he and his wife waited for a Workers Comp. settlement due to some "toxic mold" issue.

He is now a "Gourmet Coffee Vendor" I thought that meant he at least had a real job working at Starbucks, but apparently he has those Coffee Vending Machines, like you see at Tire Kingdom, I never thought the crap you bought from a vending machine was "Gourmet" but one mans junk is another mans treasure.

Now he is going to use his daddy's name to help him get into the electrical union, apparently he tried that years ago, but it didn't work out, but this time he said he is really going to give it his best shot.



He seems to think he can take a short cut and go to school to learn how to be an electrician, and then he can just sit around at the union hall drinking gourmet coffee while he is waiting to get service work.

Yes that's it. U sir, ar a f-ing genius as usual.

You would think by the age of 33 the guy would have his shit together, but I guess the money is running out on his WC settlement, so now he is looking for the next teat to suckle off of.

I had it together, but the settlement stipulated that I could no longer work where I was and I was dying, jackass. That's why the change. I hope not even you have to go through what my wife and I did with that stuff.

I would think if stickitfishy is such a superior electrician with his union training, he would just get his State Electrical Contractors license and start his own business, but the problem with that is, he would actually have to work for his money.

Are you proud of yourself for twisting everything I say?

BTW stickitfishy, do you ever shoot fish? I don't recall any pictures of big fish being posted by you

Yes, I do shoot fish. Most are medium size, not many big one's off Sarasota withion range of my boat.

[WreckDiver]

I had it together, but the settlement stipulated that I could no longer work where I was and I was dying, jackass. That's why the change. I hope not even you have to go through what my wife and I did with that stuff.




You WERE dying?

What was going on if its not to personal?


Been there with the horrible stuff too.

[mcjaret]

Damn, Sitckitfishy, if you want to go union, GO. If Daddy's name helps, great. You don't have to justify your life decisions to anyone.

Now, as Bill M querried, to try and get back on track.

While I'm not particularly pleased with the election results, I had my vote and so did the rest of America. We all now live with the results. The best thing to come out of the Democratic victory has been the forced re-examination by the President of his policy and sacking of Rumsfeld. Congress, by itself, can't do much about foreign policy beyond cutting off the funding. They aren't going to do that.

Yesterday, I went to James Haley VA Hospital to command the color guard for their Veteran's Day ceremony. Haley is a critical care center for returning wounded from Iraq and Afghanistan. While there I saw a young man get out of a wheelchair and akwardly walk up to shake hands with the Army 2 star who was the guest speaker. Later I saw he was being pushing around by a young woman in a Marine Corps t-shirt and had a son about 3. I spoke to him and wished him an early birthday greeting. (As today is the 231st Birthday of the Marine Corps. Happy Birthday, Bill, and to my other brothers and sisters out there). He was a Staff Sergeant from 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marines -- a grunt. Both his legs were artificial. The pride, the drive and the dedication to his future were evident in his eyes. We can call each other names, but that man had more courage in the face of adversity than the sum total of the people on this thread -- that includes me. He was one of many. Maintaining my bearing proved very difficult.

I've supported this war once begun. I'm personally invested in this war with family having served and even have the man who'll be my son-in-law come next Saturday deploying as a Corpsman with the Marines in February. My son may be going back. We HAVE to have some direction in the effort, some vision as to where we are going and how to get there. I'm sick of watchng fine young men and women get blown up with no apparent game plan in sight.

I'm not a religious man, but we should pray the new SecDef and the Baker study group can convince the President to wake up and pick a path.

[Bill McIntyre]

I'm not a religious man, but we should pray the new SecDef and the Baker study group can convince the President to wake up and pick a path.

I'm not very religious either, but Amen.

[jackpine savage]

Damn, Sitckitfishy, if you want to go union, GO. If Daddy's name helps, great. You don't have to justify your life decisions to anyone.

Now, as Bill M querried, to try and get back on track.

While I'm not particularly pleased with the election results, I had my vote and so did the rest of America. We all now live with the results. The best thing to come out of the Democratic victory has been the forced re-examination by the President of his policy and sacking of Rumsfeld. Congress, by itself, can't do much about foreign policy beyond cutting off the funding. They aren't going to do that.

Yesterday, I went to James Haley VA Hospital to command the color guard for their Veteran's Day ceremony. Haley is a critical care center for returning wounded from Iraq and Afghanistan. While there I saw a young man get out of a wheelchair and akwardly walk up to shake hands with the Army 2 star who was the guest speaker. Later I saw he was being pushing around by a young woman in a Marine Corps t-shirt and had a son about 3. I spoke to him and wished him an early birthday greeting. (As today is the 231st Birthday of the Marine Corps. Happy Birthday, Bill, and to my other brothers and sisters out there). He was a Staff Sergeant from 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marines -- a grunt. Both his legs were artificial. The pride, the drive and the dedication to his future were evident in his eyes. We can call each other names, but that man had more courage in the face of adversity than the sum total of the people on this thread -- that includes me. He was one of many. Maintaining my bearing proved very difficult.

I've supported this war once begun. I'm personally invested in this war with family having served and even have the man who'll be my son-in-law come next Saturday deploying as a Corpsman with the Marines in February. My son may be going back. We HAVE to have some direction in the effort, some vision as to where we are going and how to get there. I'm sick of watchng fine young men and women get blown up with no apparent game plan in sight.

I'm not a religious man, but we should pray the new SecDef and the Baker study group can convince the President to wake up and pick a path.
Well said, all the best to your future son in law and your son.

[stickitfishy]

You WERE dying?

What was going on if its not to personal?


Been there with the horrible stuff too.

I'll try to answer you soon but I don't have the time right now. It will be quite long but worth reading.

[bgbill]

I'll try to answer you soon but I don't have the time right now. It will be quite long but worth reading.

Roland,

Friday and Saturday is usually pretty busy for Pizza delivery people, I am sure after it slows down he can fill you in on the Toxic Mold.

[Spearchucker]

(Otis Elevator) were the laziest workers and complained the most, were always threatening to walk off the job, they were completely useless.

My better judgement tells me to stay out of this, BUT, speaking as a commercial mid sized (35 million)GC, nothing has changed at Otis, Thysen Krupp, Schindler, etc.. All the elevator installers are union, and they ALL suck

[stickitfishy]

Roland,

Friday and Saturday is usually pretty busy for Pizza delivery people, I am sure after it slows down he can fill you in on the Toxic Mold.

Bret, instead of posting this Saturday morning, shouldn't you have gone spearfishing with your friends. It was such a beautiful day! Oh that's right, you have no friends, you've pissed them all off. :D

By the way Walley, I have delivered all kinds of sh*t in my lifetime, you just continuously type it here on Spearboard. On November 21, I have my interview to see if I am accepted into apprenticeship. Thought you'd like to know. Hey, how is your flood plain coming along? :lol:

[bgbill]

Bret, instead of posting this Saturday morning, shouldn't you have gone spearfishing with your friends. It was such a beautiful day! Oh that's right, you have no friends, you've pissed them all off. :D

By the way Walley, I have delivered all kinds of sh*t in my lifetime, you just continuously type it here on Spearboard. On November 21, I have my interview to see if I am accepted into apprenticeship. Thought you'd like to know. Hey, how is your flood plain coming along? :lol:

Bob,

Saturday was closing day at the Fall Ball little league, I spent the day with my kids, there are more important things than diving.

If it was such a nice day, why weren't you out spearfishing?

Probably would have cut into your busy weekend of delivery Pizza.

With your work ethic and attitude, you will make the perfect Union employee, you should go work for the elevator union.

[stickitfishy]

Bob,

Saturday was closing day at the Fall Ball little league, I spent the day with my kids, there are more important things than diving.

If it was such a nice day, why weren't you out spearfishing?

Probably would have cut into your busy weekend of delivery Pizza.

With your work ethic and attitude, you will make the perfect Union employee, you should go work for the elevator union.

Didn't know you had kids, I wonder if the think daddy is right as much as he does. Your generalizations of everything show just how close-minded you are. Why is it that you like to formulate opinions and try to push it on everyone as facts? You really are quite full of yourself. And if you think you are a better man than me because I have a PT job delivering food, while I wait to get into apprenticeship, then that is your right, but you are wrong. You don't have a clue about the IBEW but I'm sure you'd be better off if you would have joined. I know retired union electricians who make more with their pension and annuity than any local, non-union electrician who is working.

[Bill McIntyre]

And what about that Democratic plan for Iraq?

[bgbill]

Didn't know you had kids, I wonder if the think daddy is right as much as he does. Your generalizations of everything show just how close-minded you are. Why is it that you like to formulate opinions and try to push it on everyone as facts? You really are quite full of yourself. And if you think you are a better man than me because I have a PT job delivering food, while I wait to get into apprenticeship, then that is your right, but you are wrong. You don't have a clue about the IBEW but I'm sure you'd be better off if you would have joined. I know retired union electricians who make more with their pension and annuity than any local, non-union electrician who is working.


That is exactly part of the problem with Unions, you have a retired Union worker making more than all local non Union workers that are working.

I know plenty about the IBEW, I drive past their office almost everyday, one thing for certain, if they have a candidates sign on their property, I vote for the person running against them.

I am no better than anyone, you started in on me, and you should know by now, that I can take shit pretty good, but I am also very good at giving it.

[bgbill]

And what about that Democratic plan for Iraq?

I don't know what it is Bill, maybe if you figure out their plan, you can let Pelosi know about it.

The Democrats have less than 2 years before the next election, can they hold power and can they take the Whitehouse? :eek:

I don't think so, but we will see.

[jackpine savage]

Well since the Republicans have blown it we will have to hope that the Democrats can find a solution to the GOP's screw up in Iraq. Maybe Pelosi won't be able to come up with a solution but Bush has been an abyssmal failure in Iraq, I have more faith in the Democrats than I do with the idiot who is our president, maybe if he wasn't so damn sur eof himslef and listen to people who knew what they were talking about.. Looks like he is bringing in a group of his fathers advisors to bail his ass out, Gates at Defense and Baker with the Iraq study, at least they are more competent than the idiots who got us into this mess.

[bgbill]

Well since the Republicans have blown it we will have to hope that the Democrats can find a solution to the GOP's screw up in Iraq. Maybe Pelosi won't be able to come up with a solution but Bush has been an abyssmal failure in Iraq, I have more faith in the Democrats than I do with the idiot who is our president, maybe if he wasn't so damn sur eof himslef and listen to people who knew what they were talking about.. Looks like he is bringing in a group of his fathers advisors to bail his ass out, Gates at Defense and Baker with the Iraq study, at least they are more competent than the idiots who got us into this mess.


Other than just pulling the plug and bailing out or making the war more politically correct, I don't theink the democrats can screw it up a whole lot more than it already is.

One of the 1st indications of Bush being weak was when some of the towelheads bitched about the name of the campaign, and he changed it, so as not to offend them, and also not allowing mosques to be hit, when they are being used to shoot at our guys.

[stickitfishy]

That is exactly part of the problem with Unions, you have a retired Union worker making more than all local non Union workers that are working.

I know plenty about the IBEW, I drive past their office almost everyday, one thing for certain, if they have a candidates sign on their property, I vote for the person running against them.

I am no better than anyone, you started in on me, and you should know by now, that I can take shit pretty good, but I am also very good at giving it.

How is the retired guy making more than the non-union, a problem? Isn't it in a workers best interest to get the most out of every hour worked? To not do so is assanine. The problem is the supply of workers and the demand for jobs, that's what sets the wage. Wouldn't be such a problem if there wasn't 12 million illegals in this country driving down the wage. I guess you own your own biz Bret and I can see your viewpoint. The problem is that some biz hired illegals in the first place, cut their costs and their prices to get more biz which in turn forced the competitors to do the same to compete. It is not right and frankly, I never have and never want to live like I see the Mexicans do. And I'm pretty irate that all the illegals, driving down the wages all around, make it harder and harder to not live like them. The middle class should not see their standard of living decrease, ever. But Bush has f-d the whole middle class and he is paying for it, finally. By the way I only attacked you because you constantly bash democrats and anyone that does not agree with the way you think. I will own my own electrical biz some day and I will never employ illegals if I ever employ anyone. I don't need to be rich and between my wife and I doing service work at $100+ and hour, I will have all the money I need to get a decent boat and dive when the weather is good. Just like a guy in Sarasota that I know that dives 2-3 times a week and makes me jealous. You know who you are. :thumps:

[bgbill]

How is the retired guy making more than the non-union, a problem? Isn't it in a workers best interest to get the most out of every hour worked? To not do so is assanine. The problem is the supply of workers and the demand for jobs, that's what sets the wage. Wouldn't be such a problem if there wasn't 12 million illegals in this country driving down the wage. I guess you own your own biz Bret and I can see your viewpoint. The problem is that some biz hired illegals in the first place, cut their costs and their prices to get more biz which in turn forced the competitors to do the same to compete. It is not right and frankly, I never have and never want to live like I see the Mexicans do. And I'm pretty irate that all the illegals, driving down the wages all around, make it harder and harder to not live like them. The middle class should not see their standard of living decrease, ever. But Bush has f-d the whole middle class and he is paying for it, finally. By the way I only attacked you because you constantly bash democrats and anyone that does not agree with the way you think. I will own my own electrical biz some day and I will never employ illegals if I ever employ anyone. I don't need to be rich and between my wife and I doing service work at $100+ and hour, I will have all the money I need to get a decent boat and dive when the weather is good. Just like a guy in Sarasota that I know that dives 2-3 times a week and makes me jealous. You know who you are. :thumps:

The problem is that you are equating retirement as hours worked it is not the same.

Why should a retired electrician make more than a guy actually doing work?

It is Unions that put Companies out of work, Reynolds used to have a Can Plant in Tampa, but the Union Killed it, the Unions are the ones ruining GM and Ford, it is the Unions that have put Airlines out of business.

The USPS is ****ed up because of Unions.

At one time Unions had their place in America, but their time has passed and they do more harm than good now.

Point out where I made any post as defamatory about Democrats, as your post about "Why are the Republicans Gay?"

What do illegal Mexicans and I owning my own business have to do with anything?

I do not hire illegal aliens, but have had jobs lost to them, but at least they are hard workers unlike the Union Workers that I have had to work with.

The middle class hasn’t been ****ed by Bush, please explain that one to me. :rolleyes:

As far as doing service work for $100 an hour, there is no way you will be earning that kind of money, keep dreaming, you will have better luck winning the lottery.

[stickitfishy]

The problem is that you are equating retirement as hours worked it is not the same.

Why should a retired electrician make more than a guy actually doing work?

A retired union electrician from here will not earn more in retirement than a non-union guy working here unless he traveled alot. But a union electrician from many places up north will, when he comes down to live here. There is one on this board.

It is Unions that put Companies out of work, Reynolds used to have a Can Plant in Tampa, but the Union Killed it, the Unions are the ones ruining GM and Ford, it is the Unions that have put Airlines out of business.

I don't know about the can plant and I don't think the airline unions put themselves out of business. It is bigger than that. As for the car companies, free trade has killed them. If our imports were taxed nearly as heavy as our exports are by other countries there would be no problem. But since our country is so in debt, we have to make trade deals favorable to other countries so we can borrow money from them. Republicans put us in debt. Democrats tried to fix the problem.

The USPS is ****ed up because of Unions.

Maybe? But UPS is surely not!

At one time Unions had their place in America, but their time has passed and they do more harm than good now.

Free trade to ensure foreign loans, because of Republican debt, and open borders are what the problem is, not unions.

Point out where I made any post as defamatory about Democrats, as your post about "Why are the Republicans Gay?"

I was just trying to sway some votes by bringing attention to all the gay republicans and clergy. It worked! :thumps:

What do illegal Mexicans and I owning my own business have to do with anything?

I do not hire illegal aliens, but have had jobs lost to them, but at least they are hard workers unlike the Union Workers that I have had to work with.

The mexicans are hard workers. Why? Because the shit they have here is way better than what they had in Mexico. As for aliens from other countries, illegal or not, I have found many about worthless.

The middle class hasn’t been ****ed by Bush, please explain that one to me. :rolleyes:

Do you really believe the above statement?

As far as doing service work for $100 an hour, there is no way you will be earning that kind of money, keep dreaming, you will have better luck winning the lottery.

Why don't you call union shops and ask them how much they charge for service work. Union people are in demand because they have better training and more skills to do a job right. Anyone can wire a house. But a non-union apprentice who just wires houses for his entire apprenticeship will not have the skills nor problem solving abilities that I will after I will have worked on: power plants, bridges, water treatment plants etc. There is no comparing the crafstmanship either. You pay for quality Bret. It may be different in Plant City, but in Sarasota where I'm from and where I'll start a biz, the people are old and rich and they'll pay $$. I know a painter who averages at least $100 an hour here in Sarasota and he dives alot. Takes the jobs he wants, doesn't work when the gulf is calm if he doesn't want to and doesn't have to advertise to get more than enough biz. Why? Craftsmanship!

[Bill McIntyre]

Will someone send me a PM when this thread gets back to the subject of the title?

[stickitfishy]

I will Bill, but only if you post something enlightening about how Bush has f-d the middle class. I know you've got an article or 5 somewhere.

[Cliffsharker]

Quote:
I don't back down, ever!



Sounds a lot like Seahuntress. You are damaging your reputation on SB quickly.

Dude you continue to come across as very immature conststantly bragging of how much money you will or can make . Sometimes its good to listen to someone who is already in the business. You will soon learn that things dont always turn out as planned or expected.

[The Collector]

Will someone send me a PM when this thread gets back to the subject of the title?
Bill, There is no way to get back to the title of this thread because no plan exists. This thread has just spun into a Dem v. Rep ideology thread manifesting in BGBILL v Sticky. The differences are important and represent the differences in our country.

Sticky is joining a union, good for him.

He thinks that because he will be in a union, he will therefore automatically be paid a bunch of money whether he is an idiot or not, he just has to remember to show up. Reality may prove to be hard on him.

Funny thing about my impression of the Democratic point of view:

If I can breathe and show up, I deserve a ‘living’ wage. That wage must be high enough for me to buy a nice house, a new car, and a decent boat.

However, if you are crazy enough to not only show up, but work hard, excel, manage your money and squeek out a rather nice living, you should have a significant portion of that money taken away from you and given to those who are only willing to breathe and show up.

My opinion of the American Dream: Anything is possible.
The Democratic version: Don’t do too good, or we’ll take some of it away.

The tax cut for the “rich” is the worst lie the Democrats have perpetuated ever. Say what you want about Bush, but this ridiculous mischaracterization is criminal.

Those who PAY taxes got a little relief. Those who get more back in tax refunds than they actually put in, did not. Are current tax code is a Welfare System and needs to be labeled as such.


Anyway Bill, if you know what the Democratic plan is, please let us know because I agree something needs to be done, and they are now the ones charged with doing it. Until then, I guess I will just help derail the thread some more.

[stickitfishy]

Quote:
I don't back down, ever!



Sounds a lot like Seahuntress. You are damaging your reputation on SB quickly.

Dude you continue to come across as very immature conststantly bragging of how much money you will or can make . Sometimes its good to listen to someone who is already in the business. You will soon learn that things dont always turn out as planned or expected.

Why you gotta post the same crap in 2 threads and make me do the same.

I know people in the electrical world, lots. And I know how much they make and what they do. And my dad has been an electrician for 41 years and has owned his own biz in the past before changing avenues and getting f-d. He will start a biz with me when I am ready and trained. And I know things don't always turn out as planned, that is why I am going union. It give me other options if a biz with dad does not work out, more options than non-union. As a wise man once told me, " People don't plan to fail, they fail to plan." And even though my confidence may seem like arrogance to some. You don't know me. 1.5 years ago, I was at deaths doorstep fighting for wokers comp and not working, living off credit cards. I beat a mega-million dollar corporation by getting a settlement for the injuries they caused me. And it was not easy with the FL stautes against me. I fought the man and I won and I was at deaths doorstep. My lawyer had no clue. It was my hours and hours of research and arguing with the defense attorney that got us the settlement not him. So if I appear arrogant, I apologize. But I know where absolute rock bottom is and I pulled myself away from it. I fixed my health and my wifes with the help of 1 doctor, out of 5 or so I saw, who ordered the right tests to show me what exactly was wrong. I did the rest. All of it!
I'm like a cancer or aids survivor who beat the disease on their own. I can't imagine many people here could possibly understand what that feels like.

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill, There is no way to get back to the title of this thread because no plan exists.

Whether you agree with it or not, here is Nancy Pelosi's plan for the first 100 hours. That 100 hours thing many seem hokey, but she learned it from Newt Gingrich, who promised the things the Republicans would do in the first 100 hours when they took over.

It sounds like a plan to me.

Pelosi has a plan for the “First 100 Hours” when she becomes speaker in January, the first Democratic speaker in 12 years and the first woman speaker ever. Among the items:

Changing the rules to put more distance between lobbyists and lawmakers. Raising the minimum wage to $ 7. 25 an hour. Enacting all the recommendations of the 9 / 11 commission. Cutting the interest rate on student loans by half. Allowing more flexibility in federal funding for stem-cell research. Allowing Medicare to bargain with pharmaceutical companies for lower prescription-drug prices.

Edit- I just noticed that the titles involved a plan for Iraq rather than the more general plan I pasted in above.

So you are right, they don't have a specific plan, but I consider that an improvement. Bush has a plan that never wavers in spite of how well its working, while they at least want to listen to the team lead by Bush's daddy's advisors, consult with generals and allies, and try to figure out what to do with the no-win situation that exists.

I'm pretty sure that whatever they do will end up in disaster, so don't bother pointing that out to me when it happens. When something is so wrong and so poorly thought out, there is just no way to fix it. The Bush invasion has caused us irreparable damage, and the Democrats are not miracle workers.

[stickitfishy]

Bill, There is no way to get back to the title of this thread because no plan exists. This thread has just spun into a Dem v. Rep ideology thread manifesting in BGBILL v Sticky. The differences are important and represent the differences in our country.

Sticky is joining a union, good for him.

He thinks that because he will be in a union, he will therefore automatically be paid a bunch of money whether he is an idiot or not, he just has to remember to show up. Reality may prove to be hard on him.

Funny thing about my impression of the Democratic point of view:

If I can breathe and show up, I deserve a ‘living’ wage. That wage must be high enough for me to buy a nice house, a new car, and a decent boat.

However, if you are crazy enough to not only show up, but work hard, excel, manage your money and squeek out a rather nice living, you should have a significant portion of that money taken away from you and given to those who are only willing to breathe and show up.

My opinion of the American Dream: Anything is possible.
The Democratic version: Don’t do too good, or we’ll take some of it away.

The tax cut for the “rich” is the worst lie the Democrats have perpetuated ever. Say what you want about Bush, but this ridiculous mischaracterization is criminal.

Those who PAY taxes got a little relief. Those who get more back in tax refunds than they actually put in, did not. Are current tax code is a Welfare System and needs to be labeled as such.


Anyway Bill, if you know what the Democratic plan is, please let us know because I agree something needs to be done, and they are now the ones charged with doing it. Until then, I guess I will just help derail the thread some more.

Thanks for twisting everything I say into whatever you want. Nice spin. I'm joining a union because they will start me at a good wage and treat me with repect. As a worker, I''ll have rights. I will excel and be at the top because I always have, at everything I have ever really put my mind to. By the way, I always bust my ass at whatever I do so I don't plan on showing up and just getting a check. But please, tell me more what I think.

[The Collector]

Bill, it sounds great but also sounds like bullshit.

Minimum wage $7.25/hr? Who does that impact? Mcdonald’s even pays more than that already. This just sounds good in headlines as a Democrat sticking it to the rich asshole that dares to own a company.
It bares no relevance on anything.

Distance between lobbyists and lawmakers? She is on the lobbyist payroll just like all the rest of them. I will believe it when I see it.

Cutting interest rates on student loans? Another welfare program. Like the tax code, call it what it is.

Allow medicair to bargain with the drug companies? Funny it takes a big horrible company like Wal-Mart to show the government how it’s done. Both Repubs and Dems get the dumbass award for not putting this in place at the inception of the medicair system.

Stem cell research? Why is it so important that this be government funded? I am not against it, but if there is really so much promise in it, why aren’t big companies doing it? Seems like a couple guys in a garage built a pretty cool operating system and made billions. How much do you think the companies are going to make that cure Michael J. Foxes tremors?

It all sounds good, but won’t happen. I hope they can get something rolling but I imagine there are too many painful things that need to be done to fix this country and none of them will do it with the ’08 elections coming.

[Bill McIntyre]

Here is a plan. Excuse the length. I was tempted to just paste in the first part, but I didn't want to be accused of trying to sugar coat it or leave out McCain's counterplan.

November 13, 2006
Democrats Push for Troop Cuts Within Months

By SHERYL GAY STOLBERG and MARK MAZZETTI
WASHINGTON, Nov. 12 — Democratic leaders in the Senate vowed on Sunday to use their new Congressional majority to press for troop reductions in Iraq within a matter of months, stepping up pressure on the administration just as President Bush is to be interviewed by a bipartisan panel examining future strategy for the war.

The Democrats — the incoming majority leader, Senator Harry Reid of Nevada; the incoming Armed Services Committee chairman, Senator Carl Levin of Michigan; and the incoming Foreign Relations Committee chairman, Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware — said a phased redeployment of troops would be their top priority when the new Congress convenes in January, even before an investigation of the conduct of the war.

“We need to begin a phased redeployment of forces from Iraq in four to six months,” Mr. Levin said in an appearance on the ABC News program “This Week.” In a telephone interview later, Mr. Levin added, “The point of this is to signal to the Iraqis that the open-ended commitment is over and that they are going to have to solve their own problems.”

The White House signaled a willingness to listen to the Democrats’ proposals, with Joshua B. Bolten, the chief of staff, saying in two television appearances that the president was open to “fresh ideas” and a “fresh look.” But Mr. Bolten said he could not envision the White House signing on to a plan setting a timetable for the withdrawal of troops.

“You know, we’re willing to talk about anything,” he said on “This Week.” “I don’t think we’re going to be receptive to the notion there’s a fixed timetable at which we automatically pull out, because that could be a true disaster for the Iraqi people. But what we’ve always been prepared to do, and remain prepared to do, is indeed what Senators Levin and Biden were talking about, is put pressure on the Iraqi government to take over themselves.”

The spirited exchanges on the Sunday morning talk shows — a staple of weekend life for the political elite here, especially on the Sunday after an election that blew through Washington like a tornado — came at a delicate moment for the White House on Iraq. The bipartisan panel on strategy, led by James A. Baker III, the secretary of state under the first President Bush, and Lee Hamilton, a Democratic former congressman, will be at the White House on Monday to begin its final round of interviews.

The panel will meet separately with Mr. Bush and members of his foreign policy team, including the secretaries of state and defense, the director of the Central Intelligence Agency and the director of national intelligence, and will then interview Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain by videoconference. On Tuesday, the group plans to meet with Democratic foreign policy leaders.

The panel is expected to make its recommendations by the end of the year, and Democrats said they did not intend to push a resolution for troop withdrawal until after the report was issued. But after Tuesday’s election, in which Republicans took what Mr. Bush has called “a thumping,” Democrats used their Sunday appearances to signal that they believed they had a mandate about Iraq and would seize on it.

“The people have spoken in a very, very strong way that they don’t buy the administration policy,” Mr. Levin said on ABC. Mr. Reid, in an appearance on CBS, said troop redeployment “should start within the next few months.”

In June, the Republican-controlled Senate rejected two amendments on troop reductions backed by Democrats. One called for all United States combat troops to be withdrawn within a year. The other, whose sponsors included Mr. Levin, called for troop reductions to start by the end of the year without setting a deadline for complete withdrawal.

In the interview after his television appearance, Mr. Levin said that any resolution about troop reductions in the next session of Congress would not contain detailed benchmarks mandating how many troops should be withdrawn by specific dates.

As Democrats outlined their proposal to reduce the American presence in Iraq, Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona and a likely presidential contender for 2008, reiterated his stance that there were not enough American troops there.

Appearing on the NBC program “Meet the Press,” Mr. McCain said that “the present situation is unacceptable” but added that any withdrawal from Iraq would create chaos throughout the Middle East.

Mr. McCain, emphasizing the importance of breaking the back of the Mahdi Army, the militia allied with the Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr, said that the Iraqi prime minister “has to understand that we need to put down Sadr, and we need to take care of the Mahdi Army, and we need to stop the sectarian violence that is on the increase in a nonacceptable level, and I think that the best way to assure that is for him to know that we will do what’s necessary to bolster the — train and equip the Iraqi army, et cetera.”

Mr. McCain added, “If we send the signal that we are leaving, of course, he’s going to try to make accommodations with others, because he knows what is going to be the inevitable result.”

After a week in which both parties used the fallout from Tuesday’s midterm elections to promise a new era of bipartisanship, the Sunday television interviews suggested that profound differences remained over Iraq, the issue that proved central in the elections.

But there was one area on which Democrats hinted they might find common ground with the White House: the confirmation of Robert M. Gates, the former C.I.A. director, to replace Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, who had become a magnet for criticism about the war and whose departure was announced by Mr. Bush the day after voters handed Democrats majorities in both houses of Congress.

“I’m inclined to vote for him now,” said Mr. Biden, who voted against Mr. Gates for the job of C.I.A. chief 15 years ago, adding, “To put it very, very bluntly, as long as he’s not there, Rumsfeld is there.”

The White House is clearly looking to the Baker-Hamilton group to provide a path toward progress in Iraq. Mr. Baker and Mr. Hamilton have already told committee staff members to begin drafting parts of the report. But other commissioners did not see any of those drafts before the election, two members of the commission said in interviews last week.

“I guess the thinking was that anything that gets circulated before the election would get leaked, and one side or the other might use that for electoral purposes,” said one member, who was granted anonymity because the commission is supposed to operate in secrecy.

Other members of the commission speculated that Mr. Baker, in particular, had been waiting to see the outcome of the elections, perhaps calculating that a major victory for the Democrats would put the White House in less of a position to challenge the recommendations.

The commission will meet again the week after Thanksgiving, when many of the most critical debates about options are expected to take place among commission members.

Mr. Baker has already made some of his views known. In television interviews, some timed to promote a book he has just published, he has expressed skepticism that a rapid withdrawal can be accomplished without setting off chaos or civil war, and has been doubtful that partitioning the country will work.

The message from White House officials on Sunday was that the president was indeed open to new ideas on Iraq, as long as they did not involve a plan with a specific date for beginning the drawing down of troops.

Dan Bartlett, counselor to Mr. Bush, said on Fox News that the president had directed the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, Gen. Peter Pace, to assess strategy in Iraq and would be open to listening to “good suggestions,” regardless of where they came from.

But Dana Perino, the deputy White House press secretary, said in an interview that Mr. Bush remained adamant that decisions about how to deploy troops would be made by military commanders in Iraq.

“That didn’t change overnight on November 7,” Ms. Perino said.

David E. Sanger contributed reporting.

[The Collector]

It sucks that the people who could do the best job running this country don't want the job. People that really want the job scare me.
Term limits may or may not help, but I think we need to reinstate the draft in a different way.
Take Warren Buffet, Jack Welch, Bill Gates, Sid ?(Citicorp) type guys and make them do their civic dutyfor a couple years.

[Bill McIntyre]

Allow medicair to bargain with the drug companies? Funny it takes a big horrible company like Wal-Mart to show the government how it’s done. Both Repubs and Dems get the dumbass award for not putting this in place at the inception of the medicair system.

There was no drug benefit at the inception of Medicare. It was created a year ago with the Republicans in control, and they specifically denied Medicare the ability to negotiate, presumably because it would have pissed off their supporters in Big Pharma.

Stem cell research? Why is it so important that this be government funded? I am not against it, but if there is really so much promise in it, why aren’t big companies doing it? Seems like a couple guys in a garage built a pretty cool operating system and made billions. How much do you think the companies are going to make that cure Michael J. Foxes tremors?

Countless advances in medicine and science have been initially funded through government research, and then private industry has piggy-backed off of it. This is an area that seems to have so much promise in so many areas that our tax money might return great dividends in improved health.

[The Collector]

Here is a plan. Excuse the length. I was tempted to just paste in the first part, but I didn't want to be accused of trying to sugar coat it or leave out McCain's counterplan.

November 13, 2006
Democrats Push for Troop Cuts Within Months

.

Honestly, I think the Dems are screwed. They believe they have a 'mandate' to cut troops but if they do it, Iraq will get alot worse before it gets better. If they don't do it, they will pay dearly in the next election.
f'd if you do, f'd if you don't.

[Bill McIntyre]

Honestly, I think the Dems are screwed. They believe they have a 'mandate' to cut troops but if they do it, Iraq will get alot worse before it gets better. If they don't do it, they will pay dearly in the next election.
f'd if you do, f'd if you don't.

I agree. Bush really put them in a box. He can't fix it, but he can point to them when they can't either.

[The Collector]

There was no drug benefit at the inception of Medicare. It was created a year ago with the Republicans in control, and they specifically denied Medicare the ability to negotiate, presumably because it would have pissed off their supporters in Big Pharma..

I did not know that was the first time for drug benefits. I remember seeing Bush tryto explain the safety of our drugs vs. our drugs that have been shipped to Canada and back. You are right, that had pandering written all over it.

Our new governor talked about getting drugs from Canada. WTF? Phizer is in New York!



Countless advances in medicine and science have been initially funded through government research, and then private industry has piggy-backed off of it. This is an area that seems to have so much promise in so many areas that our tax money might return great dividends in improved health.

I understand that but countless others managed without help. My point is I understand the massive outrage with the abortion debate, you either can or you can't have one. But with this debate, companies either get money help or they don't but they can still do it. And there is a profitable upside if they are right.

[The Collector]

I agree. Bush really put them in a box. He can't fix it, but he can point to them when they can't either.

We Repubs thought this plan up awhile ago. :eek:

We are willing to do anything to ensure we don't get Hillary in '08 :thumps: :thumps:

[bgbill]

Why don't you call union shops and ask them how much they charge for service work. Union people are in demand because they have better training and more skills to do a job right. Anyone can wire a house. But a non-union apprentice who just wires houses for his entire apprenticeship will not have the skills nor problem solving abilities that I will after I will have worked on: power plants, bridges, water treatment plants etc. There is no comparing the crafstmanship either. You pay for quality Bret. It may be different in Plant City, but in Sarasota where I'm from and where I'll start a biz, the people are old and rich and they'll pay $$. I know a painter who averages at least $100 an hour here in Sarasota and he dives alot. Takes the jobs he wants, doesn't work when the gulf is calm if he doesn't want to and doesn't have to advertise to get more than enough biz. Why? Craftsmanship!

Here is part of your problem with not understanding how much you will make, a Union shop may charge $100 per hour, but the worker will not get that much money.

Your painter friend in Sarasota, does he own the company or is he another one of your Union friends?

I think it is funny that a guy who Delivers Pizza and owns some Gourmet Coffee vending machines, that does not own a business, is trying to explain to me about paying for quality. :rolleyes:

You are saying that just because you are in a Union and show up, you will be making $100 and hour, it will not happen, and what if you don't have the technical capabilities to be a good electrician, are you still going to get paid the same as another guy with 20 years experience that knows more than you do?

How much does a Union Electrician working for TECO make?

I can guarantee you TECO is not paying $100 per hour.

You previously said you had a WC claim, what line of work were you in?

You said you make $15-$20 per hour delivering Pizza, is that based on Tips or is the Pizza shop paying you that?

How much are you going to make as an apprentice electrician?

[Bill McIntyre]

And speaking of drug benefits and cost. When this new Medicare drug benefit was created a year ago, it let private companies offer drug plans, and old farts went nuts trying to figure out which plan was best for them, depending on where they lived, which drugs they took, etc. Medicare set up a web site to help guide them though it, but of course many of the oldest and sickest are not computer savvy.

Luckily, I did not have to face the problem of selecting a private company's plan. As long as I pay the Medicare Part B premium, which is required if you want to use physician's services in addition to the basic hospital benefit that applies to everyone, I am eligible for TriCare for Life. That is a program for retired military and it picks it the co-pays and deductibles after Medicare pays.

But it also has a drug benefit. For almost every drug out there, and including the expensive statin I'm taking, I can go to a local participating pharmacy and get a $30 day supply for $9. But better yet, if I use the internet to order, I can get a 90 day supply for $9. And even better yet, they recently reduced the price of a 90 day supply to $3 in order to encourage use of the internet pharmacy.

How can they offer drugs at these prices? I think its because there are no private insurance companies raking off a percentage, and because TriCare can negotiate with drug companies. Its just too bad that Congress won't let Medicare operate the same way.

But of course that might look like the dreaded "socialized medicine" and we can't have that. And of course we also have to let private companies rip off the elderly who often have to choose between food and drugs so that those companies can make profits and contribute to reelection committees.

[The Collector]

But of course that might look like the dreaded "socialized medicine" and we can't have that.

It might look like we are trying to run the government like an efficient business rather than a big wealth redistribution center. :thumps:


And of course we also have to let private companies rip off the elderly who often have to choose between food and drugs so that those companies can make profits and contribute to reelection committees.

See I agree with you all the way until the final shot. While I understand and agree with your frustrations, I am hard pressed to believe that the big pharmacies had a secret meeting with Republicans and chuckled about starving the elderly in exchange for free trips on the corporate jet.

[Bill McIntyre]

See I agree with you all the way until the final shot. While I understand and agree with your frustrations, I am hard pressed to believe that the big pharmacies had a secret meeting with Republicans and chuckled about starving the elderly in exchange for free trips on the corporate jet.

I'm sure they didn't have a big secret meeting. Its done in small meetings when lobbyists meet with individual Congressmen and Senators and express the concerns of the industries they represent and their devotion to the wonderful free market system.

[stickitfishy]

Here is part of your problem with not understanding how much you will make, a Union shop may charge $100 per hour, but the worker will not get that much money.

Your painter friend in Sarasota, does he own the company or is he another one of your Union friends?

I think it is funny that a guy who Delivers Pizza and owns some Gourmet Coffee vending machines, that does not own a business, is trying to explain to me about paying for quality. :rolleyes:

You are saying that just because you are in a Union and show up, you will be making $100 and hour, it will not happen, and what if you don't have the technical capabilities to be a good electrician, are you still going to get paid the same as another guy with 20 years experience that knows more than you do?

How much does a Union Electrician working for TECO make?

I can guarantee you TECO is not paying $100 per hour.

You previously said you had a WC claim, what line of work were you in?

You said you make $15-$20 per hour delivering Pizza, is that based on Tips or is the Pizza shop paying you that?

How much are you going to make as an apprentice electrician?

I know I will not be making $100 hr until I own my biz Bret and then I know I won't be getting $100 hr. for all the hours I put in. And I won't be getting a $100 hr when I am doing all the work that all the non-union guys can do, like wiring houses. And I do own a biz, it's a vending biz. The power plant job pays electricians $22.39 hr + benefits and is supposed to go to 6 or 7 10's so that's overtime and double time and triple time on holidays possibly. I am not going to discuss where I woked when I got sick. It could have serious repercussions. The pizza money is based on them paying me $5 an hour plus tips. Avg. tip is about $3.50 and I get 80 cents a delivery for mileage. Avg mileage per delivery where I am at is 3.5 miles. I will start as an apprentice at $11.20 hr or $12.32 or so since I have lots of hours of previous experience and they may start me a 2nd year pay. Of course I get all kinds of benefits with this. It's less than pizza but there is a brighter future to say the least.

[stickitfishy]

Also Bret, I will be able to use my name to my advantage when in biz and it would be stupid not to. My father did work with many general contractors when he had his own biz and my family has been here since the 1880's. We have a park/boat ramp and a major avenue named after us. So I have name recognition when someone opens the yellow pages and that helps. Plus lots of relatives/leads.

[Spearchucker]

Stickit -

No offense guy, but you are 34 years old and deliver pizza. You are about to take a job making $12 an hour. The guys who push brooms on my jobs make more than that. You constantly brag about how much you will make. Incredible immaturity. You are truly in for a rude awakening. If I was you, at this point in my life, I would be pretty disappointed at where I was.

[bgbill]

I know I will not be making $100 hr until I own my biz Bret and then I know I won't be getting $100 hr. for all the hours I put in. And I won't be getting a $100 hr when I am doing all the work that all the non-union guys can do, like wiring houses. And I do own a biz, it's a vending biz. The power plant job pays electricians $22.39 hr + benefits and is supposed to go to 6 or 7 10's so that's overtime and double time and triple time on holidays possibly. I am not going to discuss where I woked when I got sick. It could have serious repercussions. The pizza money is based on them paying me $5 an hour plus tips. Avg. tip is about $3.50 and I get 80 cents a delivery for mileage. Avg mileage per delivery where I am at is 3.5 miles. I will start as an apprentice at $11.20 hr or $12.32 or so since I have lots of hours of previous experience and they may start me a 2nd year pay. Of course I get all kinds of benefits with this. It's less than pizza but there is a brighter future to say the least.

I am confused :confused: in this post http://www.spearboard.com/showpost.php?p=394552&postcount=156 you said you were going to make $100 an hour for service work and now you aren't, maybe you should quit smoking so much marijuana.

Maybe you should stick to delivering pizza, and servicing your gourmet coffee vending machines.

[jackpine savage]

Cutting interest rates on student loans? Another welfare program. Like the tax code, call it what it is.

I don't see how you can equate interest rates being cut on student loans with welfare unless you are willing to equate teh home mortgage deduction with welfare and the child tax credit with welfare. Education is an investment that benefits all of society, the smarter the workforce the better off we all are, because instead of getting illiterate teens who can only work at Wal Mart we have engineers and scientists who create the new industries which move this country forward. So IMHO its a deduction worth having and if you are one of thise people who believe you should pay for these programs then pay for this one by cutting tax breaks to the oil companies which have been earning record profits.

[jackpine savage]

Stem cell research? Why is it so important that this be government funded? I am not against it, but if there is really so much promise in it, why aren’t big companies doing it? Seems like a couple guys in a garage built a pretty cool operating system and made billions. How much do you think the companies are going to make that cure Michael J. Foxes tremors?

why should our government spend money researching multi-drug resistant tuberculosis? There are few if any cases within the borders of the US. Because it is rampant in many other parts of the world and all it takes is someone with a strain of it to get on a subway in NYC and then you have an outbreak that anti-biotics can't cure. That is why the government funds medical research, because not all of the diseases that can kill you are profitable for drug manufaturers to invest the money into finding a cure for. Same reason they don't develop drugs which can combat a multitude of diseases that inflict the peoples who live in the tropics. I am one of thoise people who think if the US government can spend 50 million dollars on research and find a cure for, say malaria, then they should do it. Its not a whole lot of money compared to what this government spends yet it can change for the better the lives of millions of people. That is why I vote Democrat and not Republican.

[bgbill]

Stickit -

No offense guy, but you are 34 years old and deliver pizza. You are about to take a job making $12 an hour. The guys who push brooms on my jobs make more than that. You constantly brag about how much you will make. Incredible immaturity. You are truly in for a rude awakening. If I was you, at this point in my life, I would be pretty disappointed at where I was.

:rofl:

Hey John I wouldn't be ordering any Pizza's for delivery, Bob may put some special sauce on it. :eek:

[mcjaret]

Funny how this thread morphed into a thousand different directions, most going no where.

I've engaged in many many spirited discussions on this board and know it doesn't have to get personal. The only time Bret's attacked me was when I put too many "t's" in his name.

As to some of the factual matters raised:

1. If Nancy can solve all the problems of the world in 100 hours, I'll move to San Fran and vote for her.

2. Having grown up in LA, I know personally that there's been an illegal alien problem since Kennedy and Johnson were in office and historically it appears its been there's been one ever since the depression when we first tried to keep people out. I think that was around FDR's time or maybe even before. In the early '90's (Clinton era) they put signs up on the San Diego freeway warning drivers to beware of aliens running across the roadway. Human waves were charging the border crossings. It surely hasn't gotten any better in the last 6 years, but really hasn't changed much either. I was assisting in the management of over 3 million acres of military bombing ranges '97-'99, and we had terrible problems with lost training because aliens were crossing live bombing ranges while the bombing was supposed to be going on. We had to rescue people who were trying to walk 40-50 miles through the most inhospidable desert you've ever seen with kids, old people, and pregnant women in the summer. Its been there when the democrats were in power as well as the republicans.

3. As for the deficit, the feds have been spending more than they brought in for 40 years and before. Exception was a couple of years recently where a republican congress dragged a democratic president to a balanced budget kicking and screaming. Then they forgot why they got elected in the first place and became whores like everyone else in Washington. Any economist will tell you that taking current numbers of deficit or surplus and extrapolating them 10 years into the future gives you garbage as results. Too many variables that are out of the politicos hands to make meaningful predictions. Again this behavior has gone on with both parties in power. How many Reagan budgets were declared "dead on arrival" by democratic chairmen who filled the budget back up with entitlement spending? Plenty of blame for all sides.

4. Other than critizing how poorly things are going now, there is no plan for Iraq. Talk of timetables and phased redeployment are just sound bites.

The world continues to deteriorate.

[bgbill]

Actually its the global compition that did it. No one in this country can compete agaist the wages in China, India etc. Thats why not only factory work ,but now white collar jobs are leaving the country.
If you saved and invested over $400 a week , every week for 35 years, for your retirement, would it be wrong to be able to retire at more than what a non union electrician makes?
Whats wrong is when the company you worked for steals all the money its employees had deducted from there checks for retirement, and gets away with it.

Ask GM how much being added to the cost of every new vehicle, to pay people who do not work, I heard it was about $2500 per vehicle, that makes it hard to compete.

Wasn't it Eastern Airlines that wanted a concession from it's Pilots so they could stay in business? yet they struck and so did the mechanics, have you flown on eastern lately?

As far as an employee who saved for their retirement, yes they should be able to retire at more than a non union member makes, after all it is their money.

[stickitfishy]

Stickit -

No offense guy, but you are 34 years old and deliver pizza. You are about to take a job making $12 an hour. The guys who push brooms on my jobs make more than that. You constantly brag about how much you will make. Incredible immaturity. You are truly in for a rude awakening. If I was you, at this point in my life, I would be pretty disappointed at where I was.

Dude, my life was good and I had a good job until that company got me and my wife very , very sick. I didn't work for over 6 months because I was too sick and my wife didn't work for 4. I got a settlement that I had to fight for. All I wanted was for them to pay my medical bills since it was their negligence that got me sick. Anyways, can never work for that corporation again and really don't want to do that kind of work again. So I have a vending biz which isn't the greatest and I deliver food while I wait to change my life. I don't really care what you think about me, you have no idea what I have gone through. Oh, and in my free time I stand up for democrats and get bashed by many of you Republicans. The only reason I've said anything is because Bret never stops attacking me and I won't back down from him just because he is a mod and has lots of Republican friends.

[junior]

Ask GM how much being added to the cost of every new vehicle, to pay people who do not work, I heard it was about $2500 per vehicle, that makes it hard to compete.

I wonder how many are making $80K/year doing something like gluing an armrest to the driver side door panel of a vehicle? I want that job...

[The Collector]

I don't see how you can equate interest rates being cut on student loans with welfare unless you are willing to equate teh home mortgage deduction with welfare and the child tax credit with welfare. Education is an investment that benefits all of society, the smarter the workforce the better off we all are, because instead of getting illiterate teens who can only work at Wal Mart we have engineers and scientists who create the new industries which move this country forward.

You miss an incredibly important point that a large number of people miss. Do you think a family of 4 can live off $40,000/yr? With nothing other than the standard deductions, that family gets a tax refund of $200 MORE THAN THEY PAID. FOR CLARIFICATION... IF HE GETS $30/WEEK TAKEN OUT OF HIS CHECK HIS TAX RETURN IS $30X52=$1520 + $200 = $1720!!!!!!!!
That is welfare not taxes. Make a little less and add the Earned Income Credit and woooooo hooooo momma gets really nice new shoes!!!!!!!!

Back to your point: the idea behind guiding us stupid Americans down the proper path by saying 'own a home and you get a tax break' or 'go to school and get real smart and you get a tax break' is outdated.
Come up with a fair tax program and go back to a true welfare system. Call it what it is and add the stigma that comes with it so there is a motivation for people to better themselves and get off it.

As a card carrying Republican (they really sent me a card!!) I have no problem paying for a welfare wystem to help people less fortunate as long as they are willing (or required to) do everything they can to help themselves.

So IMHO its a deduction worth having and if you are one of thise people who believe you should pay for these programs then pay for this one by cutting tax breaks to the oil companies which have been earning record profits.

What new tax breaks did the oil companies get?? Did you pull this little factoid off NBC or the Hillary '08 campaign site? They make a smaller % of net profit/revenues than just about every other industry out there. The reason they are making record profits is because they are selling record amounts of product!!!!! Welcome to America.

You want the oil companies to cut their profit then you have to agree in advance to start losing 10%/year on your 401k and everything will be fair. Are you in?

[The Collector]

I wonder how many are making $80K/year doing something like gluing an armrest to the driver side door panel of a vehicle? I want that job...

Holy Republican Statement, JUNIOR DEMOCRATIC BATMAN! :lol:

[Bill McIntyre]

.

[jackpine savage]

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a1eDReAgtETw&refer=news_index

Tax break or welfare?

[ITSABOUTTIME]

The devil is in the details ,tax incentives to get private industries to do things is not uncommon to the energy sector and companys have to get tax credits. If you read a lot of these in detail the tax break comes in rapid depreciation. An example would be my small company is showing a profit of 300,000 thousand for this year but I have only taken a salary and fefinanced my house and put more money into the company. We have bought new equipment and increased inventory, our paryroll has increased about 40%(new jobs mostly) if we can't rapidly depreciate our capital invesments so that they don't show as profits we couldn't pay our taxes. I am not saying the oil companys deserve everything thy are getting but if the offshore drilling credits are rapid depreciation on hundred of million dollar drilling rigs it makes sense.

[jfjf]

What new tax breaks did the oil companies get?? Did you pull this little factoid off NBC or the Hillary '08 campaign site? They make a smaller % of net profit/revenues than just about every other industry out there. The reason they are making record profits is because they are selling record amounts of product!!!!!


Wow I did not know that. I kinda thought it had something to do with the fact that the price of oil had doubled? Or possibly the huge tax breaks that Bush got them. Guess they are just selling a lot more oil...

I wish I understood economics better.

[The Collector]

The devil is in the details ,tax incentives to get private industries to do things is not uncommon to the energy sector and companys have to get tax credits. If you read a lot of these in detail the tax break comes in rapid depreciation. An example would be my small company is showing a profit of 300,000 thousand for this year but I have only taken a salary and fefinanced my house and put more money into the company. We have bought new equipment and increased inventory, our paryroll has increased about 40%(new jobs mostly) if we can't rapidly depreciate our capital invesments so that they don't show as profits we couldn't pay our taxes. I am not saying the oil companys deserve everything thy are getting but if the offshore drilling credits are rapid depreciation on hundred of million dollar drilling rigs it makes sense.

So you (the big bad guy who dares to own a business and pays taxes) managed to benifit from tax cuts and created new jobs at the same time????

What the hell were you thinking? Aren't we all supposed to stand in line for our checks from the goverment?

[ITSABOUTTIME]

well the thing is I personaly haven't benefited yet I'm still nail biting and struggling with cash flow and the tax benefit is just not having to call part of the money we spent to do business profit.

[The Collector]

well the thing is I personaly haven't benefited yet I'm still nail biting and struggling with cash flow and the tax benefit is just not having to call part of the money we spent to do business profit.

This is my point. You go through all this crap:
Possibility of losing your house
Smaller salary than some of your employees
Nail biting
Long hours trying to get your business to succeed.
etc.

If it fails, you lose everything.
If it succeeds, the government, under new management, thinks you should be penalized for your success in the form of higher taxes.

Sounds like a lose-lose situation to me.
FYI, I am in the exact same boat. (New heloc on the house to expand my business and 2 new employees this year)

[ITSABOUTTIME]

This is my point. You go through all this crap:
Possibility of losing your house
Smaller salary than some of your employees
Nail biting
Long hours trying to get your business to succeed.
etc.

If it fails, you lose everything.
If it succeeds, the government, under new management, thinks you should be penalized for your success in the form of higher taxes.

Sounds like a lose-lose situation to me.
FYI, I am in the exact same boat. (New heloc on the house to expand my business and 2 new employees this year)
Amen, but don't get me wrong it has its rewards. Just give me a Flat tax system based on benefit to owners and I'll be a happy camper.

[jackpine savage]

Workers of the world Unite! :D

[junior]

Did you read that right? $320 thousand A YEAR TAXED AT SAME RATE AS $13 MILLION A DAY.

The guy making the $320K goes broke in a month if he stops working, yet he has been convinced by the right that he should protect the income of the guy who could buy him and his neighbors before he even hits the snooze button in the morning:rolleyes:

[Wayward Son]

So what exactly is your logic? You take it away simply because he makes it?

[jackpine savage]

no, he should pay a fair percentage of his income in taxes just like everyone else. I guess what is considered fair is what the controversy is all about.

[junior]

So what exactly is your logic? You take it away simply because he makes it?

My notion is that the government does not "take away" taxes. True, they are mandatory, but I look at it more as the cost of doing business (living) in the country. While I am for a national sales tax, I still see absolutely no reason why a graduated tax scale is a problem for some people. What gets me is that many of those opposed to the graduated scale are often those standing barefoot in the middle class mud.

[Wayward Son]

Glad I didn't. You see, I regard property rights as being extreemly important in a free society. I also see the money that I earn as being my property, not that of the govt to simply take as someone pleases.

I want the opportunity to benefit from my labors. I want my kids to have an even better opportunity. I simply do not see embracing Marxist redistribution as a means of making that possible.

[jackpine savage]

And yet you have no problem using government services that tax payers money provides. Every time you drive on a road, receive a letter, drink water from your kitchen sink you are benefitting from services payed for by tax dollars. My probelm is that the government spends the money wrong, not that they take to much.

[mulefeathers]

So the guy that makes 320k a year pays $112,000 in taxes at 35%. The guy that makes 13,000,000 a day pays 4,550,000 a day @ 35%. While the welfare person with 5 kids and one more on the way lives free and pays no taxes. That fair.

[junior]

And I think you fail to remember who printed the money you make, protects you from foreign control, builds the roads that you drive daily, builds and staffs the schools your kids attend, maintains order so you don't have to shoot people on a daily basis to protect yourself, fights to get you safely home when you do something stupid in a foreign country, helps keep large companies from destroying the environment in which you live, pays for research into technologies that keep your standard of living high and your longevity among the highest in the world......

Honestly, our taxes and what is done with them is the main reason we don't live in grass huts:D

[jackpine savage]

I lve how everyone brings up an imaginary, stereotypical welfare mom. There are less people on welfare now since the Welfare Reform Act signed by Clinton. There will be less next year because of it. The way people talk about welfare you would think they live as well as the guy making 13,000,000 a day.

[jackpine savage]

My answer is if you think you can make as much money elsewhere then by all means go off and try. The US has one of the lowest tax rates of any industrial country. If you think you can do as well in Japan or Germany give it a try, doubt you could though

[junior]

Right, if there are so many welfare recipients sitting on the porch all day doing nothing, how come traffic sucks so bad when I try to go to work? Could it be that almost everyone is working. I mean, unemployment is so low that there cannot possibly be enough welfare recipients to drag the whole place down. Try a handful of billions blowing up a desert if you wonder where all the money goes. Anyone figure the people building and supplying all that war stuff are on welfare? No...I figure they are pinky sippin' on a fairly regular basis and wondering just what more they can get the middle class to do for them...

[Wayward Son]

Nice straw man, jack. I never said taxes shouldn't be paid. I simply disputed the notion that it'd OK to steal a greater percentage from someone simply because they make more. That concept is one of the essential planks of Marx's communist manifesto & something that has only been part of our tax code for about 100 years. Now people have come to accept it as the norm while never questioning the source.

There is a fundamental difference between how we see people. When you look at someone doing substantially better than you are, you see them with jealous, envious eyes & think that if things were fair a great deal of what they've earned would be taken from them.

When I see someone doing better than I am, I have admiration for their success & wonder how I may also do better for myself. When I look at my kids I don't think "If they manage to do really well in life, I want other people to confiscate what they managed to earn". No, I think "I want them to do as well as they possibly can, and if they see someone doing better & want it for themselves, to get motivated to bust their asses & go & get it & enjoy the payoff".

[mulefeathers]

No they don't! I never said that. I also know several people taking advantage of the system. Kids on medicare while they sell cars under the table and receive aid from the state and feds. But the fact is they live free. They don't pay taxes no income no SS no state taxes. Food stamps and aid in not taxable. I can't remember the numbers off the top of my head but about 30% of the people don't pay any taxes and 20% of all of the taxes are paid by 5% of the people.

The guy that makes $13,000,000 a day it is still his money. Why does he have to pay more of it out because he had the good fortune to earn it?

It is not imaginary, stereotypical welfare mom here. It is fact We have the largest and unorganized welfare system of any state. I made 6 figures last year and paid a large amount in taxes and still had a government employee from the public school call and ask if I needed to put my child on medicare.

[Bill McIntyre]

So the guy that makes 320k a year pays $112,000 in taxes at 35%. The guy that makes 13,000,000 a day pays 4,550,000 a day @ 35%. While the welfare person with 5 kids and one more on the way lives free and pays no taxes. That fair.

So why doesn't the guy making 320k a day offer to trade places?

[mulefeathers]

So why doesn't the guy making 320k a day offer to trade places?


Why should he have to? It is his money and his right to earn as much as he can.

[jackpine savage]

When I see people doing better than me I don't think one thing or another and believe me I live in a very wealkthy area so there is a lot of them here. I see people who would rather work 60 hours a week while I do my 40 and dive and sail in my free time. I don't think that people should be taxed unfairly. If someone makes 10 million I odnt thin they should be taked at double what someone making 60,000 is taxed. There should be fairness in the system. As it stands now the guy making 13,000,000 a year is probably paying a lot less as a percentage than you because he can afford a lawyer who finds ways to manipulate the tax code to his benefit. That is no more fair than taking him at an exorbitant rate. While I have a problem with a flat tax I do believe the tax code needs adjustment.

[junior]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have always assumed that a certain amount of public resources are utilized for every dollar earned by an individual. Doing the math, the guy making $13 million a day uses an extraordinarily high percentage of public resources in the process??

[bgbill]

So why doesn't the guy making 320k a day offer to trade places?

Why should he trade places with a person that is on welfare? :rolleyes:

Why don't you let a welfare recipient move into your house and have access to all of your stuff, and you can go live where they did.

[jackpine savage]

No they don't! I never said that. I also know several people taking advantage of the system. Kids on medicare while they sell cars under the table and receive aid from the state and feds. But the fact is they live free. They don't pay taxes no income no SS no state taxes. Food stamps and aid in not taxable. I can't remember the numbers off the top of my head but about 30% of the people don't pay any taxes and 20% of all of the taxes are paid by 5% of the people.

The guy that makes $13,000,000 a day it is still his money. Why does he have to pay more of it out because he had the good fortune to earn it?

It is not imaginary, stereotypical welfare mom here. It is fact We have the largest and unorganized welfare system of any state. I made 6 figures last year and paid a large amount in taxes and still had a government employee from the public school call and ask if I needed to put my child on medicare.

What state do you live in?

[mulefeathers]

When I see people doing better than me I don't think one thing or another and believe me I live in a very wealkthy area so there is a lot of them here. I see people who would rather work 60 hours a week while I do my 40 and dive and sail in my free time. I don't think that people should be taxed unfairly. If someone makes 10 million I odnt thin they should be taked at double what someone making 60,000 is taxed. There should be fairness in the system. As it stands now the guy making 13,000,000 a year is probably paying a lot less as a percentage than you because he can afford a lawyer who finds ways to manipulate the tax code to his benefit. That is no more fair than taking him at an exorbitant rate. While I have a problem with a flat tax I do believe the tax code needs adjustment.

I bet the guy spends a lot more than the guy making 60,000 a year. TYPICALLY the guy making a large fortune is a business owner and if he doesn't pay the taxes it because he is putting a portion back into a business that COULD employee the person making 60,000.

By going to a national sales tax everyone is taxed at the rate of which they spend.

[bgbill]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have always assumed that a certain amount of public resources are utilized for every dollar earned by an individual. Doing the math, the guy making $13 million a day uses an extraordinarily high percentage of public resources in the process??

But they are paid for by the person using the resource.

If you have a large house, you pay more property taxes, if you buy a lot of stuff, you pay more sales tax, and you put money into the economy.

You drive a car that gets bad gas mileage, you pay more gas taxes, you have a boat that uses a lot of fuel, you pay more taxes.

Have you ever been hired by a guy on welfare?

[mulefeathers]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have always assumed that a certain amount of public resources are utilized for every dollar earned by an individual. Doing the math, the guy making $13 million a day uses an extraordinarily high percentage of public resources in the process??

You may be right but I don't know what public resources he would use more of.

[Bill McIntyre]

For those who have such heartburn over progressive taxes, please keep in mind that state and local taxes are highly regressive, meaning the lower the income, the higher the percentage of income paid in taxes. The low income residents of California pay a lot higher percentage of their income in taxes than the higher income residents.

To use just one example, that welfare recipient that irritates you so much because he doesn't pay any federal tax is paying 7.75% sales tax in Orange County, CA, and higher in some other counties.

Obviously there are differences from state to state and from one person to another based on individual circumstances, but overall, when you look at total tax burden both federal and state/local, the system is already remarkably flat. All income groups are paying about the same percentage of income in taxes.

So before you get Congress to push through a flat federal income tax, you better get your state to make its taxes flat. Otherwise, the entire system will be regressive.

[jackpine savage]

No he is probably a CEO of a Fortune 500 company who is on average making 350 times the rate of the average worker. When he is fired/retires/steps down he will also recieve a golden parachute usually in the form of stocks which he will be able to sell within 12-24 months of leaving for a small fortune. His companys stock is probably doing well because he shipped all of the domestic jobs overseas thereby cutting the payroll and raising profits but at the cost of throwing Americans ouot of work. For all the good he has done lets give him a tax break.

[100days-a-year]

Perhaps the evil rich man got there by hard work,determination and sacrifice and thoroughly enjoys the benefits he's earned. :slap:
And just exactly how did that welfare recipient get in that position?Was it the rich guy bonin' her against her will? :wtf:

And just what lessons are we passing on to posterity.Work hard cause someone needs to be depenent on you?How about the other side...Why work or show any initiative if you can get off Ok by doing nothing.

Ever wonder why we have the highest worldwide rates of just about all signs of a decayed society?(suicide,divorce,drug abuse not just use,violent crime and a litany of other social ills)Is it because we haven't thrown enough money at it? Or perhaps it's Bush's :cowboy: fault cause it was the wrong money at the wrong time in the wrong place. :rolleyes:

[jackpine savage]

Perhaps the evil rich man got there by hard work,determination and sacrifice and thoroughly enjoys the benefits he's earned. :slap:
And just exactly how did that welfare recipient get in that position?Was it the rich guy bonin' her against her will? :wtf:

And just what lessons are we passing on to posterity.Work hard cause someone needs to be depenent on you?How about the other side...Why work or show any initiative if you can get off Ok by doing nothing.

Ever wonder why we have the highest worldwide rates of just about all signs of a decayed society?(suicide,divorce,drug abuse not just use,violent crime and a litany of other social ills)Is it because we haven't thrown enough money at it? Or perhaps it's Bush's :cowboy: fault cause it was the wrong money at the wrong time in the wrong place. :rolleyes:
Well it can't be from our taxes since they are lower than just about every industrialized nation except Switzerland.

[Wayward Son]

I don't have a problem with paying taxes. I do have a lot of problems with the way we tax now.

Taxes should be collected, IMO, in order to pay for the essential services & functions of government. Period. Not as a way of influencing, rewarding or punishing people & our current system does all 3.

[mulefeathers]

For those who have such heartburn over progressive taxes, please keep in mind that state and local taxes are highly regressive, meaning the lower the income, the higher the percentage of income paid in taxes. The low income residents of California pay a lot higher percentage of their income in taxes than the higher income residents.

To use just one example, that welfare recipient that irritates you so much because he doesn't pay any federal tax is paying 7.75% sales tax in Orange County, CA, and higher in some other counties.

Obviously there are differences from state to state and from one person to another based on individual circumstances, but overall, when you look at total tax burden both federal and state/local, the system is already remarkably flat. All income groups are paying about the same percentage of income in taxes.

So before you get Congress to push through a flat federal income tax, you better get your state to make its taxes flat. Otherwise, the entire system will be regressive.


I don't know about CA but in MS they are not paying any sales tax on items for which they receive state or federal aid. Food stamps or ebt cards are not taxed and medical care that is paid through the state medicaid program is not taxed at any rate.

Gas and other items are taxed just as normal which brings it down to luxury or a small handful of household items to be taxed.

[The Collector]

You miss an incredibly important point that a large number of people miss. Do you think a family of 4 can live off $40,000/yr? With nothing other than the standard deductions, that family gets a tax refund of $200 MORE THAN THEY PAID. FOR CLARIFICATION... IF HE GETS $30/WEEK TAKEN OUT OF HIS CHECK HIS TAX RETURN IS $30X52=$1520 + $200 = $1720!!!!!!!!
That is welfare not taxes. Make a little less and add the Earned Income Credit and woooooo hooooo momma gets really nice new shoes!!!!!!!!




You guys talk about the people who pay no taxes, there are a HUGE number of people who get back more than they paid. I could actually live with some not paying if we made it so that noone -- noone -- got more back than they paid.

[mulefeathers]

No he is probably a CEO of a Fortune 500 company who is on average making 350 times the rate of the average worker. When he is fired/retires/steps down he will also recieve a golden parachute usually in the form of stocks which he will be able to sell within 12-24 months of leaving for a small fortune. His companys stock is probably doing well because he shipped all of the domestic jobs overseas thereby cutting the payroll and raising profits but at the cost of throwing Americans ouot of work. For all the good he has done lets give him a tax break.

But you said yourself unemployment is at a low and the welfare rolls are at the smallest rate ever. So all of the jobs must not be shipped overseas.

If he is making 350 times that of the average worker he worked his butt off to get there.

[Bill McIntyre]

You may be right but I don't know what public resources he would use more of.

I've seen some analyses using dollars, but I don't have them at my fingertips.

But a few that come to mind include the air traffic control system. Rich guys fly, poor guys don't. The rich guy (or more likely his company) may buy the ticket, but the government provides all those navigation aids, controllers, radars, etc.

Highways- for the rich guy's trips, or for the transportation of the products he sells to get rich.

The legal system- it enforces the rich guy's contracts, lets him sue people who violate his patents, etc.

[bgbill]

For those who have such heartburn over progressive taxes, please keep in mind that state and local taxes are highly regressive, meaning the lower the income, the higher the percentage of income paid in taxes. The low income residents of California pay a lot higher percentage of their income in taxes than the higher income residents.

To use just one example, that welfare recipient that irritates you so much because he doesn't pay any federal tax is paying 7.75% sales tax in Orange County, CA, and higher in some other counties.



Bill,

The welfare recipient may pay a higher percentage of his welfare check on sales tax, than say a person who earns $100,000 a year, but the guy who earned his $100,000 is going to spend more money, so he will pay more sales taxes, also he will most likely own a huse and pay property taxes, the welfare recipient will probably live in an apartment or section 8 housing, and will not pay any property taxes.

The guy making $100,000 a year will also be paying income taxes, and will not be a burden on society like the welfare recipient.

BTW have you ever noticed how the poorer people always seem to smoke and a lot of them are overweight as well.

[mulefeathers]

I've seen some analyses using dollars, but I don't have them at my fingertips.

But a few that come to mind include the air traffic control system. Rich guys fly, poor guys don't. The rich guy (or more likely his company) may buy the ticket, but the government provides all those navigation aids, controllers, radars, etc.

Highways- for the rich guy's trips, or for the transportation of the products he sells to get rich.

The legal system- it enforces the rich guy's contracts, lets him sue people who violate his patents, etc.

True but rich guy flies spends money at the airport, hotel, parking lot. Most people tip the porter who has his job because the rich guy flies as does the pilots and flight attendants. Airlines make money from the business class flier not the family of 4 on vacation. His taxes pays for the other services.

Highways I know a lot of poor people that drive on those highways yet as stated above receive more in a tax refund than they pay in.

The legal system. They were his patents does he not have the right to enforce the legal system when someone violates his patents?

[jackpine savage]

But you said yourself unemployment is at a low and the welfare rolls are at the smallest rate ever. So all of the jobs must not be shipped overseas.

If he is making 350 times that of the average worker he worked his butt off to get there.
I give you Dennis Koslowski of TYCO Industries. While he is an extreme example I could show you dozens of companies that have operated at a loss and where the top executives received extremely generous compensation packages. When a company does poorly its not the executives who pay the price its the workers. As for outsourcing, are you saying that jobs leaving the US for other, cheaper nations isn't a problem?

[bgbill]

Bill,

Have you ever worked for a Poor Guy?

I know it may be an unfair question to you, since you were in the Military.

[bgbill]

We're talking $13,000,000 a day. That is not 320 times as much as the guy making $320,000 a year.

Who is making $13,000,000 a day?

[Wayward Son]

A lot of those jobs didn't leave, they were eliminated by people like me.

Robotics, automation & the software that controls them have replace a lot of people doing hands on jobs in manufacturing. You should watch the welder we have in the plant here. It never takes a break, never goes to the head, never has family problems, never shows up with a hang over & gets the work done faster with greater accuracy & repeatability than a human. That's what is making the columns for the metal buildings going up now.

In sheer tonnage we're manufacturing plenty of stuff, but the fact is that it now takes less people to do it.

[jackpine savage]

I think by definition a poor guy wouldn't be an employer. There is nothing wrong with being poor. There are a lot of people who work for low wages yet they work. Should they have something to be ashamed of? There is a difference between someone who is poor and someone who works the system and benefits from social welfare programs. If someone loses their job and goes on unemployment should they be looked down upon? There are people who use welfare/public assistance programs to get themselves back on their feet, then there are those who abuse the system. Should those people who need a helping hand be ashamed becasue they are poor? I don't think so.

[jackpine savage]

There are still a lot of manufacturing jobs that have left for overseas. Automation is part of the reason there are less jobs in that area but nott he only reason. Look at teh textile industry.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

I dont know what you mean by "benefit to owners" , but we BASICLY already have a flat tax in this country.

1955 - 1963 20% tax below $4k income/ 91% @ $400k and up
fast forward to;
1988- 15% below $29k income/ 28% $149k and up
to now; (as of 2004)
15% below $14.3k income/ 35% $319.1k and above
SO... if your making $320k/year you pay the same % tax as the guy in Forbes who is making $13,000,000/day

Did you read that right? $320 thousand A YEAR TAXED AT SAME RATE AS $13 MILLION A DAY.

And we wonder how it got to be that the top 3% controls over 51% of the wealth in America?
The idea of the flat tax is it makes it fair the ultra rich would not be able to shelter as much. Benefit to owner means income plus benefits or trucks any thing somebody would pay for from a business for their personal benefit. I don't mind paying my fair share I just cant pay taxes on money I haven't ever and may never recieve.

[bgbill]

Also Bret, I will be able to use my name to my advantage when in biz and it would be stupid not to. My father did work with many general contractors when he had his own biz and my family has been here since the 1880's. We have a park/boat ramp and a major avenue named after us. So I have name recognition when someone opens the yellow pages and that helps. Plus lots of relatives/leads.

William,

Is the Park and Street Named after you and your dad? :yippee:

If so, what did you do that was so special, get a Pizza there before the 30 minute time limit?

I am sure there are other Higel's beside you and your family out there.

[bgbill]

There are few things in life that show lack of class as much as someone making fun of how someone else earns a living.
Get a life bgbill

Pizza Boy aka Coffee Boy is the one who started in on me and is telling us how he is going to be a great electrician because he is trying to get into the Union, he said he will be making $100 an hour doing service work, and because of his name, it won't hurt to get in the Union.

[stickitfishy]

William,

Is the Park and Street Named after you and your dad? :yippee:

If so, what did you do that was so special, get a Pizza there before the 30 minute time limit?

I am sure there are other Higel's beside you and your family out there.


Hey everyone, I have a new stalker. Bret, why are you researching me? How else would you know my first (legal name) and last name? Are you going to come and visit? If you do, would you prefer the reverse naked choke over a black eye or does it matter?

I have a name familiar to people in the area and name recognition is very good for business Bret. I'm sorry that you feel I should not use my intellect to my advantage. And I'm sorry about your Bush-like IQ.

[stickitfishy]

Pizza Boy aka Coffee Boy is the one who started in on me and is telling us how he is going to be a great electrician because he is trying to get into the Union, he said he will be making $100 an hour doing service work, and because of his name, it won't hurt to get in the Union.

Actually a-hole, you started in on me with all your bashing of democrats repeatedly, over and over and over. I said I will make $100+hr doing service work when I have my own biz, after I top out. You must be the the Wally World of general contracting. Bidding cheap jobs and subcontracting to idiots who get paid crap because their work sucks. Why is it so hard to build a house right in this state, do your sub-contractors even have levels.

[bgbill]

Hey everyone, I have a new stalker. Bret, why are you researching me? How else would you know my first (legal name) and last name? Are you going to come and visit? If you do, would you prefer the reverse naked choke over a black eye or does it matter?

I have a name familiar to people in the area and name recognition is very good for business Bret. I'm sorry that you feel I should not use my intellect to my advantage. And I'm sorry about your Bush-like IQ.

If you are going to use your intellect, why rely on the Union?

There is nothing wrong with using your intellect to your best advantage, but being in a Union does not reward you for that, from my experience with Unions, they protect the lazy workers.

The USPS is a prime example, I know a lot of letter carriers, the Post Office can not pay people based on performance, one guy I knew was very productive, he did a route that continually grew, it had quite a few apt. complexes on it, and Dan needed time to do his paper work, like Change of address, and FOIA's, but the supervisor always complained that he would spend 1 hour a week doing his paperwork, so he bid off the route, and it ended up being split into 3 routes, when I found this out, I asked him why wouldn't they just pay him a bonus, for doing what 3 carriers were now doing, he said it was aginst the Union Rules.

So because he had a jerk of a manager, and a stupid rule that they could not pay him a bonus for doing what 3 carriers did, the Post office ends up losing in the end.

At least with Rural route Carriers, they can go home when they are finished, whether it is 2 hours, 8 hours or 10 hours, but they only get paid for 8 hours, and the route gets audited once a year.

As far as a Bush like IQ, he is The President of the United States, and does have a Degree from Harvard and Yale, and is or was a Pilot, how many degrees do you have?

He also got better grades than John Kerry.

[bgbill]

Actually a-hole, you started in on me with all your bashing of democrats repeatedly, over and over and over. I said I will make $100+hr doing service work when I have my own biz, after I top out. You must be the the Wally World of general contracting. Bidding cheap jobs and subcontracting to idiots who get paid crap because their work sucks. Why is it so hard to build a house right in this state, do your sub-contractors even have levels.


Pizza Boy,

Show me where I constantly bashed Democrats, I am not the one who started the "Why are the Republicans Gay" thread, it was you, isn't that bashing?

As far as my work goes, if you would like to come to Tampa with your level, I can show you some of my jobs that I do.

What type of work did you do when you had the Toxic Mold issue?

What do you think about Ross Perot?

[mcjaret]

No one said it was wrong to be poor. The question posed here is whether it is wrong to be rich?

The hypothetical man making $13,000,000 a day pays, each and every day, 38.23 times the taxes the man making $340,000 annually pays in a year. That's because he makes 38.23 times the other man's annual income in a day. A 1.66 Billion dollar tax bill each year is nothing to sneeze at. He can't drive 13,000 times more than the other man, nor could he use 13,000 times the other services. Why should his marginal tax rate be higher?

Neither one is really hurting.

Another issue raised -- Why is it that when a Republican is discovered hitting on a page, he gets forced from office by his own party and is crucified by the world while when a Democrat actually has sex with a page, he's re-elected, embraced by his party and lauded as a great American upon his death. Is the real message from our new leaders that homosexual child molestation is okay so long as you aren't a hypocrite about it?

Then again, consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.

[The Collector]

No one said it was wrong to be poor. The question posed here is whether it is wrong to be rich?
...... Then again, consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Bill McIntyre]

No one said it was wrong to be poor. The question posed here is whether it is wrong to be rich?



I sure don't think its wrong to be rich. I just think that the rich should be willing to pay a fair share to support the system that permitted them to become rich. None of them are being reduced to poverty by the tax system.

And if they don't think its fair, they can always prove the supply sider's theory by quitting work and becoming poor so that they don't pay taxes. I have not noticed a bunch of that.

[stickitfishy]

If you are going to use your intellect, why rely on the Union?

There is nothing wrong with using your intellect to your best advantage, but being in a Union does not reward you for that, from my experience with Unions, they protect the lazy workers.

The USPS is a prime example, I know a lot of letter carriers, the Post Office can not pay people based on performance, one guy I knew was very productive, he did a route that continually grew, it had quite a few apt. complexes on it, and Dan needed time to do his paper work, like Change of address, and FOIA's, but the supervisor always complained that he would spend 1 hour a week doing his paperwork, so he bid off the route, and it ended up being split into 3 routes, when I found this out, I asked him why wouldn't they just pay him a bonus, for doing what 3 carriers were now doing, he said it was aginst the Union Rules.

So because he had a jerk of a manager, and a stupid rule that they could not pay him a bonus for doing what 3 carriers did, the Post office ends up losing in the end.

At least with Rural route Carriers, they can go home when they are finished, whether it is 2 hours, 8 hours or 10 hours, but they only get paid for 8 hours, and the route gets audited once a year.

As far as a Bush like IQ, he is The President of the United States, and does have a Degree from Harvard and Yale, and is or was a Pilot, how many degrees do you have?

He also got better grades than John Kerry.

Let me make this easy for you to understand. I am joining the union because they have better training and teach more skills than ABC. The pay is better! I won't have to call OSHA on my employer like I did with the mold because they could care about my health or my wifes or anyone elses. I will make more money as an apprentice and as a journeyman than with ABC. I can travel to very high paying states and save lots of $$ if I like. Buy a bigger boat. I like the 32 Intrepid pilothouse with diesels! :D There are ways to move up in a union job and make more $$. You can work as a superintendent for a shop and get your union wage+benefits+ money from the shop extra,and a vehicle etc. etc. I know what you are talking about when it comes to seniority over skills with unions. Unions are not perfect. But I am planning on starting a biz and I truly believe I will acquire the most skills going this route versus ABC. And I have more options. If I were to choose to start a non-union biz in the future, I goign the IBEW way. If I went to ABC, I could not go union. This is the best choice for me.

And please Bill, please don't talk about Bush as if he is intelligent. He has degrees at prestigious schools because of his prestigious family. I wonder what connections his family had to those schools? Did they build a wing at them. Did his dad have business dealing with the people in charge? C'mon Bret you are smarter than that. The guy speaks like a twit and it is all on a teleprompter for him.

By the way I have an A.A. degree and credits towards a bachelors but no bachelors. I may get one in construction management, maybe. The NJATC has a program and would give credit for my A.A. and fo rthe apprenticeship. Then it is just 30 something hours online and a diploma. But pieces of paper mean nothing to me except that the person who has one could put up with all the shit to get that paper. It does not equate to skills.

[stickitfishy]

Pizza Boy,

Show me where I constantly bashed Democrats, I am not the one who started the "Why are the Republicans Gay" thread, it was you, isn't that bashing?

As far as my work goes, if you would like to come to Tampa with your level, I can show you some of my jobs that I do.

What type of work did you do when you had the Toxic Mold issue?

What do you think about Ross Perot?

I don't feel like going through tons of posts so I can prove that you have bashed democrats repeatedly. I did start the Gay Republican thread and I've already stated why. What kind of jobs do you do Bret? I already told you about the mold work issue. I vaguely remember that I like some of Perot's ideas, I think. I did like Gen Wesley Clark over Kerry too by the way.

[stickitfishy]

No one said it was wrong to be poor. The question posed here is whether it is wrong to be rich?

The hypothetical man making $13,000,000 a day pays, each and every day, 38.23 times the taxes the man making $340,000 annually pays in a year. That's because he makes 38.23 times the other man's annual income in a day. A 1.66 Billion dollar tax bill each year is nothing to sneeze at. He can't drive 13,000 times more than the other man, nor could he use 13,000 times the other services. Why should his marginal tax rate be higher?

Neither one is really hurting.

Another issue raised -- Why is it that when a Republican is discovered hitting on a page, he gets forced from office by his own party and is crucified by the world while when a Democrat actually has sex with a page, he's re-elected, embraced by his party and lauded as a great American upon his death. Is the real message from our new leaders that homosexual child molestation is okay so long as you aren't a hypocrite about it?

Then again, consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.

The republican wanted to molest a underage child. Bill Clinton got a blow job or 2 from a consenting adult and they tried to impeach him for it. So what you are saying is that child molestation and adultery should be punished equally? WTF?

Don't you think Bush should be tried for all the crap he has done? He has acted like a dictator, does what he wants whenever he wants, circumnavigates the Geneva Covention in order to torture people. Goes to war based on lies after he was told the info was crap in the first place. Gets 1000's of our people killed along with 150,000 dead Iraqi's. Puts fear into us in order to control us more. The list goes on and on. And this all while he and his friends make billions from oil and war products. Conflict of interest? He's the most corrupt politician in my lifetime.

[jackpine savage]

I don't think any one wants to tax the rich at an unfair rate however they do have to pay their fair share of tha taxes. Their taxes go to support a political and economic system that enabled them to become rich. Noone becomes rich(we are talking hundreds of millions and more) based solely on hard work. It takes a system of governance and laws that help protect their investment, insure they get the proper financing, etc.