Side Scan Sonar?

[Capt.Gene]

I have some interest in getting a 2nd sonar machine.
It would be quite interesting to hang a side scan sonar right under my
existing 10" sonar.
I understand the side scan units with a gps and track plotter allow placing the cursor on any point of interest that shows off to the sides of the course the boat is running, and nav-ing back to bottom structure or fish show that you otherwise would never be alerted to.
Questions are, how wide a swath of bottom do you actually get to watch as you travel, what are the limitations of what you see on the screen, and what units should be considered for purchase ... or avoided.
Thanks!

[100days-a-year]

From Humminbird @ less than a $1k you get a phased array single transducer with decent performance to 100'

Interphase around $2k you basically get a steerable 1 or 2 transducer unit with better range.

Furuno has a commercial searchlight steerable scanning machine I've seen on big commercial boats that rocks but is $$$20K

Towables give the best show but are speed limited and cost several $K to $20K+

sea-viewdiving.com www.portup.com/~dfount/sidescan.htm

[stevemc1]

Do a search for Hummingbird Side-scan. I think cheapest is about $1700 though.. At least it was last year when it first came out. Looks like a good unit-but I have not seen it in person. I have been in contact with some folks who say it works great, and they find stuff that they would have gone over. The H-bird website says the side range is 150' each side at 75' depths(I think thats what it said.) The only problem with side scan - no matter which units, is you have to go real slow-stay at a certain speed. I guess you dont get a real good picture- too drawn out- if going too fast.

[Reefrat]

First day playing with the hummingbird we ran beside a boat that had sank recently in its slip and we were able to clearly see the anchor and top hatch from 25' away. At the end of a boat ramp we found 3 cars that had been disposed of that the DNR didn't even know where there. One you could see it had a huge long hood and deck lid, I guessed an old caddy but it turned out to be a Towncar instead.

It's also good for finding old crap trabs too.

[stevemc1]

Reefrat, where do you live?

[stevemc1]

Opps I just looked at your profile, not close to me. I was interested in checking one out in person. Anyone within an hour or so from Sarasota Fl have one?

[Spear One]

PM SandiBottom, he know a lot about SS sonar. He has owned several "tow sonars".

[Steve-o]

Gene, a real sonar like the CH 250 requires a seachest in the bottom of your boat, which is essentially a recessed compartment for retraction of the array to allow high speed travel. If you have the space it can be done.

[WreckDiver]

Has anybody aquired one of these 900 series machines? to check them out. They look interesting.

[stevemc1]

Some friends up in Tampa have one - Hummingbird 986 SI and it really does do just as the website says. But you have to go 5 mph or so + or - to have a good picture and go in a straight line. Calm water is best. I think it goes out 240' on each side, and about 120' deep max. It looks like a picture of the bottom, with fish and ledges. They found 2 big anchors in Tampa bay, and you could see the chain and individual links of the chain. I almost got one early this year but funds got sucked out at my daughters wedding. But last dive trip(yesterday) my girlfriend said she was going to get me one for my birthday! Shes tired of going in circles looking for a single sunk boat or ledge, when we could just pull up and know right where it is and where the fish are, and how big they are. The one with GPS charting and side scan is about $2000.

[WreckDiver]

I was looking at the new smaller garmin's like the 545 till I got to use a couple in other peoples boat and I have to say I do not like the sounder features on them there 3D charts are great though.

So now I am looking at these, My JRC FF50 is getting old and Patrick who used to run the service dept at JRC has retired and the new guy has no interest in them. Which means when it breaks its done. I would like to sell it before it breaks. I don't need a machine like that but it sure does look cool and WM over here has them so I have gotten to play with it some and I like it, but only if it works as nice as the simulator shows.

[KEYSKILLER]

http://webpages.charter.net/bhamptonkc7mrp/

images of side scan

[inletsurf]

A real side scan that is able to detect small spots in >75 ft of water most likely requires a towfish transducer.

The hummingbird stuff is cool, but a lot of its users and fan club use them in lakes to 50 feet depth. Not much data exists that I've seen on those units in the 100 ft depth range of sea water.

[inletsurf]

Gene, send me an email at bigindosurf@yahoo.com with your address please. I cannot get your address since I don't have PM's anymore.

[NOTANX]

23six has one on his boat. we were using it during spearboard. it works pretty well . scans both sides out to about 100'. not as clear as the photos on their site. we may still have to play with it a little.

[23six]

I still need to figure it all out, but it's pretty bad-a$$

[stevemc1]

23six, what model do you have? And nice gun racks by the way!

[23six]

Thanks on the gun rack. I have the Humminbird 997 Si Combo. I belive it's there top of the line. Keep in mind that if you get one, the NavCombo version includes mostly freshwater lakes. I went the slightly cheaper route (without the Nav) and spent the difference on a chip for my area (SE FL saltwater). I used it again the other night...it's really cool. Of course the website shows the best case scenarios...but it's really cool. I will say it doesn't work as well in rough water because the boat moves around so much. When it's calm it's almost like watching TV, you really do "see" the contour of the bottom and any other structure may be around. I want to spend some time "recording" all my local area structure and actually saving it to a card and printing it out. It seems you can do that with these units. I just haven't had much time to get out with it lately. So busy with work.

[stevemc1]

Thanks for that tip on the nav combo. I will go that route too. I am also planning to get the 997 as it has download capabilities.

[ICEMAN]

I have a Hummingbird Side-Scan.Very nice unit up to 100' with the Side-Scan.Regular no Side-Scan OK to 400'

[Capt.Gene]

I have a Hummingbird Side-Scan.Very nice unit up to 100' with the Side-Scan.Regular no Side-Scan OK to 400'

Martin I would like to go offshore with you sometime and see how that works.
Want to trade dive trips?

[ICEMAN]

Gene.
This sounds good.
I will be in Biloxi next weekend and the following weekend I'm
taking the Missen and the Kids to the Keys for 5 day.
I will contact you after my return from the Keys.
M.R.

[stevemc1]

I would like a report when you do. Iceman, where are going in the Keys? I will be in the Marquesas for 5-7 days, from 17th on, then maybe a day in Marathon. Steve.

[JimC]

Iceman if you and Gene need another diver I'd like to go along to I've been considering the 997 myself and would like to see it in action

[gogators27]

If you have even more room.....:D I thought I had already bought one, but the guy did not go through with the sale after I won the auction:mad: I have a transducer and no machine now.... but anyways would really like to see the machine in action so if you have a spot I would love to jump on board too.
-Grant

[matt888]

I threw the 797c si on my boat this past weekend. I've yet to take it out in 50-100ft of water, but from what I've seen so far you couldn't pay me to go back to a standard sonar by any of the other makes. Being that I live on the Gulf side, the unit is perfect because I'll never be in water over 120 ft for a day of freediving. It's all about finding structure and that's just what this side image technology does! I couldn't justify the extra grand for the large screen (997 model), but I bet it really gives a good show. Here's a few pics I took showing a dolphin swimming under my boat, a crab trap, and a variety of man made reefs (cement). Don't let the Lowarence and Furuno owners tell you "it's a Humminbird...it must suck!" I heard that crap for the past few months as I was interested in hearing what people thought of the side image units. Every person that had a negative opinion "heard the units weren't all that" and never had actually USED one.

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/549/11269/208438.jpg

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/549/11269/208441.jpg

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/549/11269/208565.jpg

[gogators27]

I threw the 797c si on my boat this past weekend. I've yet to take it out in 50-100ft of water, but from what I've seen so far you couldn't pay me to go back to a standard sonar by any of the other makes. Being that I live on the Gulf side, the unit is perfect because I'll never be in water over 120 ft for a day of freediving. It's all about finding structure and that's just what this side image technology does! I couldn't justify the extra grand for the large screen (997 model), but I bet it really gives a good show. Here's a few pics I took showing a dolphin swimming under my boat, a crab trap, and a variety of man made reefs (cement). Don't let the Lowarence and Furuno owners tell you "it's a Humminbird...it must suck!" I heard that crap for the past few months as I was interested in hearing what people thought of the side image units. Every person that had a negative opinion "heard the units weren't all that" and never had actually USED one.


I also will never go back to just a vertical machine. I have the 987c and have been really impressed with how usefull it is. Looking at the bottom machine alone I feel blind now. Side scan was going to be my little secret, but you had to go and tell everybody, oh well:D

[matt888]

Now I want my Humminbird commission! :D

[Capt.Gene]

What's the transducer like to mount?

[bug_power]

I wish I could find clear water inside of 100' here. Can someone run out to around 130' or so and get some pictures?

[gogators27]

What's the transducer like to mount?

its a transom mount, no different than any other to mount its just much larger

[SpearMax]

Here's a few pics I took showing a dolphin swimming under my boat, a crab trap, and a variety of man made reefs (cement). Don't let the Lowarence and Furuno owners tell you "it's a Humminbird...it must suck!" I heard that crap for the past few months as I was interested in hearing what people thought of the side image units. Every person that had a negative opinion "heard the units weren't all that" and never had actually USED one.

Nice images Matt! They look really useful. Tony

[matt888]

its a transom mount, no different than any other to mount its just much larger

The mount is not any different, but location is absolutely crucial to performance! If you plan on actually using the side image (really the only reason I wanted this system - but also the best feature) you have to mount it in a location where there is NOTHING blocking the sonar signals that come off each side at approx 90 degrees. They are narrow bands, but a boat engine bracket or trim tab for example in that line of sight will screw your picture up big time.

I got lucky and was able to put it about 15" off center on the starboard side and not have anything block the view from side to side. Even with finding the perfect spot, many people report a less accurate picture to the left side of the boat due to the sonar passing through turbulent water from their props. With power tilt and trim you can increase the picture quality on the left side by tilting that engine up a few degrees while looking for structure.

Just some more information for those of you interested in the technology and limitations it does have.:beer:

[gogators27]

The mount is not any different, but location is absolutely crucial to performance! If you plan on actually using the side image (really the only reason I wanted this system - but also the best feature) you have to mount it in a location where there is NOTHING blocking the sonar signals that come off each side at approx 90 degrees. They are narrow bands, but a boat engine bracket or trim tab for example in that line of sight will screw your picture up big time.

I got lucky and was able to put it about 15" off center on the starboard side and not have anything block the view from side to side. Even with finding the perfect spot, many people report a less accurate picture to the left side of the boat due to the sonar passing through turbulent water from their props. With power tilt and trim you can increase the picture quality on the left side by tilting that engine up a few degrees while looking for structure.

Just some more information for those of you interested in the technology and limitations it does have.:beer:

yes I see clearer on the right than the left and I have a full swim platform/engine bracket which totally takes it out of the picture.
I need to play around with it a bit so that I can read the bottom while running, right now the whole thing cuts out at about 20 miles an hour:(

[matt888]

yes I see clearer on the right than the left and I have a full swim platform/engine bracket which totally takes it out of the picture.
I need to play around with it a bit so that I can read the bottom while running, right now the whole thing cuts out at about 20 miles an hour:(

What cuts out? The side image feature at speed? That view is pretty much useless over 6 mph! The conventional 2-D sonar should work fairly decent at high speeds. Some guys get the optional "through hull" transducer for an even better high speed 2-D picture.

[PCdiver]

Has anyone seen or used the SportScan towed side scan sonar made by Imagenex? http://www.imagenex.com/Products/SportScan/SportScan_Specs/sportscan_specs.html
I have been looking at them, but would like some feedback from costumers. I have used their Rotating Head Sonars for work and they are great and the customer service is great too.
The reason I am looking at a towed sonar is that my experiance with side scan is that if the platform is not stable (i.e. a small boat in any seas) the image goes to $h!t quickly. Guys with the Humminbird SS, at what wave height does your image start degrading? And how large of a boat are you using it on?

[gogators27]

Has anyone seen or used the SportScan towed side scan sonar made by Imagenex? http://www.imagenex.com/Products/SportScan/SportScan_Specs/sportscan_specs.html
I have been looking at them, but would like some feedback from costumers. I have used their Rotating Head Sonars for work and they are great and the customer service is great too.
The reason I am looking at a towed sonar is that my experiance with side scan is that if the platform is not stable (i.e. a small boat in any seas) the image goes to $h!t quickly. Guys with the Humminbird SS, at what wave height does your image start degrading? And how large of a boat are you using it on?

I have a 25.5 plus swim platform/bracket and the thing does surprisingly well even in large seas, biggest seas i've had it out in was the first time i used it. Sease were 5 foot rollers with white caps. Side scan you could see concrete rubble piles no problem it would have been very hard if not imposible to locate some of this stuff without side scan in those kind of seas. You can always tell the difference between sand small rock piles/ hard bottom. Even in large seas.

Matt, righ now i can't get the machine to get any reading at all over 20 miles per hour, I need to play with the transducer position but have been too busy to mess with it yet. Yah, I know the side scan is no good over about 10 mile per hour.

[matt888]

Good to hear you still had enough image quality in larger seas. I've only had mine out in about 2 footers thus far but it performed as well as the flat calm intercoastal.

There's no doubt the image will start to "stretch" in larger seas, but structure should still stand out enough to decide whether or not you want to spear :D

[gcracker89]

http://www.geocities.com/~magman123/
Is the web site for these units about $6,500. plus a lap top, guess I will have to wait till next year now I just spent $6,000. in new electronics for the boat.

[stevemc1]

gogators27, where did you put your transducer? If it is behind a lift strake, it may be getting air, as they channel the air down it. But you may be able to slide the whole thing downward, and make sure it is slightly tilted, so that the back is down farther than the front, but the front needs to be in the water fully so no bubble forms on it. You may have to get back there and look at it, while someone else is driving. Both of my boats fish finders work at over 40 mph. I plan on getting a Hummingbird 997. I work in a treasure salvage group and we have 3 tow fish side scans which the cheap model cost 6500 or so, and the better one is twice that. Well one of the guys got a 987 used a few months ago, and made a tow fish basically like a Sea-View towable video camera tow fish, out of 2" PVC, acrylic fins and heavy plastic nose cone. He put in 5 lbs of lead shot with resin, and attached a place to mount the transducer. He has this on a 3 seater Jet Ski. He uses the 30 ft cable and has gotten great pictures. He also has a magnetometer tow fish on this jet ski. Hummingbird sells 30' lengths of transducer cables, it plugs into the other cable, just needs to be water proofed and strengthed, and you could tow back quite a ways. I had always heard it was possible to do this, now I have seen it work, and it does take all the motion out of it, even on a jet ski.

[gogators27]

gogators27, where did you put your transducer? If it is behind a lift strake, it may be getting air, as they channel the air down it. But you may be able to slide the whole thing downward, and make sure it is slightly tilted, so that the back is down farther than the front, but the front needs to be in the water fully so no bubble forms on it. You may have to get back there and look at it, while someone else is driving. Both of my boats fish finders work at over 40 mph. I plan on getting a Hummingbird 997. .

I put it between the bottom lift strake and the bottom(keel) of the hull. I figured that the lift strake could cause problems so I put it six inches away from it. I made the transducer perfectly parallel to the hull so that may be the problem. Thanks for the tip on slightly tilting it back. That will be the first thing that I try as I think it is already down enough so the the entire bottom of the transducer is under water while on plane.

PS- if you get one do not touch it while it is on underwater it will juice you pretty good!

[stevemc1]

Remember that the transom is out of the water when you are going fast, just the bottom of the boat is wet, so you must have the whole face or lower face under the water enough that it doesnt get an air bubble formed on it. I used to rig electronics on boats for a living. They can be tricky, and some boats just have a steep deadrise and are not easy. Sounds like you are down deep and not really having any interferance from the engines. My boat is like yours, 25 foot hull with an additional swim platform/engine bracket w/ 2 outboards. I think its 24 degrees deadrise. So I probably could learn from your mistakes or things that you did to improve reception and images. Sounds like you just need to tilt it down in the back, if not slide the whole thing down some and tilt it back. It should get a good picture/image at speeds over 30 Kts. You need to be able to be cruising to your spots and looking for ledges that you didnt know about! I find them all the time and I usually cruise about 29 Kts. But it still gets a good image at 40+. Thats just a regular bottom machine.

[Ranger1]

I put the 997 on my cat a couple of months ago and love it, will never go back to just a conventional bottom sonar. I've built a towfish, but because of these never ending NE winds haven't tried it out yet. I've been finding good structure that we've been motoring over for years, its amazing. I don't get good conventional sonar return at speed and will need to work on transducer location. Recently on one of our trips, while looking for artificial reef we found what looked like a dredge pipe, unbroken for roughly 100+ feet, marking good fish. Its not listed on the artificial reef, and when talking to DNR personell, they weren't aware it was there. It probably washed off a barge during a storm, can't wait to dive it, should be loaded with grouper and snapper. Love the unit, very simple menu's that even a caveman could figure out. I've talked with Humm and they are working on a software mod which will enable you to null out the water column, which gives you more bottom view on sidescan. This will be a software upgrade for free I'm told.

[matt888]

I put the 997 on my cat a couple of months ago and love it, will never go back to just a conventional bottom sonar. I've built a towfish, but because of these never ending NE winds haven't tried it out yet. I've been finding good structure that we've been motoring over for years, its amazing. I don't get good conventional sonar return at speed and will need to work on transducer location. Recently on one of our trips, while looking for artificial reef we found what looked like a dredge pipe, unbroken for roughly 100+ feet, marking good fish. Its not listed on the artificial reef, and when talking to DNR personell, they weren't aware it was there. It probably washed off a barge during a storm, can't wait to dive it, should be loaded with grouper and snapper. Love the unit, very simple menu's that even a caveman could figure out. I've talked with Humm and they are working on a software mod which will enable you to null out the water column, which gives you more bottom view on sidescan. This will be a software upgrade for free I'm told.

I hope they make the software upgrade for us 797 guys too. The water column view is pretty much useless in my opinion. Might as well just split the screen between side image and 2d radar if you want to see the water column!

[DPS]

A special thanks goes out to the programmers that unraveled the Hummingbird Side Imaging data and came up with a program to convert/replay the recorded files from the Hummingbird 997 on a PC.

http://www.xumba.scholleco.com/viewtopic.php?t=181

Now you can collect the data and go home and review it in comfort. It took me about 15 minutes to download the program and play my first file.

[23six]

A special thanks goes out to the programmers that unraveled the Hummingbird Side Imaging data and came up with a program to convert/replay the recorded files from the Hummingbird 997 on a PC.

http://www.xumba.scholleco.com/viewtopic.php?t=181

Now you can collect the data and go home and review it in comfort. It took me about 15 minutes to download the program and play my first file.

You aren't talking about the .bmp files are you?

[gogators27]

Did yall enter all your numbers manually or is there a way to do it on a memory stick or somthing, looked throught the whole manual and did not see a way other than punching each one in manually:eek:

[DPS]

You aren't talking about the .bmp files are you?

No, these are the .son files that you create when the 997 is on record. It's like a movie of the bottom, not a snapshot like the .bmp files. You select the .dat file and it converts it and the .son file to .dvs (deep vision technology) format than can be read with their viewer. They can also be converted to the yellowfin .872 format. I'm not sure if this format can be made into a mosaic.

You couldn't play the files on a PC before they came up with the convert program. They would only playback on the Hummingbird unit.

Thanks again to those who deciphered the format and came up with the program.

[matt888]

Did yall enter all your numbers manually or is there a way to do it on a memory stick or somthing, looked throught the whole manual and did not see a way other than punching each one in manually:eek:

"HumminbirdPC" is what you want. You enter the info on the PC and transfer it to the SD card.

That's the way to go if you're typing a bunch of waypoints.

[100days-a-year]

Are the units compatible with Offshore Hunter,Andren or any other waypoint management software.It would be serious nice to have a side scan pic pop up in the descripion.

[gogators27]

"HumminbirdPC" is what you want. You enter the info on the PC and transfer it to the SD card.

That's the way to go if you're typing a bunch of waypoints.

Thanks Matt, just what I was looking for!!

[Curt_58 Smith]

I am cosidering doing the same thing. I have seen the hummingbird sidescan and it is very good but can be confusing until you get used to it.

After talking to West Marine, I have been advised to wait about 1 year, Raymarine or Garmine is curently developing a unit that is totally awasome.

[gcracker89]

Wow that would be great to add a 2nd transducer to to my machine to get that kind of picture