Things are great in Iraq

[chuam]

Now we have the Iraqi president opening up diplomatic relations with Syria and now it looks like he will go to a summit in Iran. I'm not sure how things could be worse.


Way to go GW. :rolleyes:

[bikewrench]

Things could be worse... the republicans could still be in control of congress.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

Its not a puppet gov. do you guys think it should not be on terms with Syria.You guys need to make up your minds whether diplomacy should be tried or not. Syria showed some good will putting language in their diplomatic agreement that u.s. troops leave only when they are not needed any more. I think it kind of shows you prefer the situation is a dismal failure. I hope this is an avenue for the U.S. to have better relations with Syria and that they can be split from Iran. But thats just me being happy about things tha are good for the U.S., If Syria will control their border and seek good relations with Iraq it will only help.

[bikewrench]

I WANT things to get better in the middle east. My point is that since Bush and his team proposed this war, even before the actual invasion, things have been going downhill. This downhill spiral has been accelerating in the last year or so. There has been absolutely no leadership or indication from the White House that a positive resolution was forthcoming. So now that we have had such a major change in Washington there is hope that we can at least get out of there.

[swathdiver]

A person's perception of how well the Iraqi Campaign is doing depends on where they get their information from.

If you get your information from John Stewart, the Big 3, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc. you'd think all hell has broken loose, nobody is working, people are dieing record numbers, all sorts of doom and gloom.

Get the facts, visit Defend America (http://www.defendamerica.mil) Defense Link (http://www.defenselink.mil) and I-MEF Marines deployed to Fallujah (http://www.imef-fwd.usmc.mil/imef/imef-public.nsf/sites/imeffwd?OpenDocument)

:thumps:

[Bill McIntyre]

Even the government reports that our troops are dying and that Iraqis are dying in record numbers. Even Kissinger says its not winnable. Even our own generals say that the Iraqis are not amenable to training. Even our own generals say that what is going on is civil war.

You have to be a hell of a conspiracy theorist to believe that all the networks and other media are misquoting military leaders and other former administration hacks with impunity.

The offer of free insulin still holds if only you will get your ass over there.

[aaron proffitt]

What was it Kofi Annan called it ? A 'mess', or to that effect.But he went on to say that it's bad if we stay,but we can't leave either.Which I'm quite sure is what most of 'us' have been saying all along. No easy answer.I curse the day we ever put a boot on the ground there.

Just glad my brother was able to make it out of there for the holidays,even it is just for 3 weeks.

[swathdiver]

Even the government reports that our troops are dying and that Iraqis are dying in record numbers.

Not so. Outside of Baghdad, the murder rate is lower then some of our cities, like Washington D.C.

Even Kissinger says its not winnable.

That's a misquote, he said that in the context of a U.S. military victory over the insurgency. No military or government official has ever said otherwise.


Even our own generals say that the Iraqis are not amenable to training. Even our own generals say that what is going on is civil war.

What generals are these? Certainly not Abizaid, Casey, Pace, etc. Are referring to Wes Clark?


You have to be a hell of a conspiracy theorist to believe that all the networks and other media are misquoting military leaders and other former administration hacks with impunity.

No, I understand that the media is heavily biased and no longer interested in just reporting the news, they report the news as it fits their leftist agenda. This isn't new, it's been this bad for 40+ years now. Certainly you remember the innacurate reporting when you were in Vietnam, right?

Thanks to Al Gore (he invented the internet) we now have other sources of news that handily expose their agendas and more accurately report the facts.

[swathdiver]

What was it Kofi Annan...

Kofi? Who care what he says? He's a two-bit dictator thug! Kofi never met a mass murderer or commie that he didn't want his picture taken with. :thumps:

[Bill McIntyre]

Not so. Outside of Baghdad, the murder rate is lower then some of our cities, like Washington D.C.

The UN just reported that 3,709 civilians were killed in October, the highest number since the invasion. If its not civil war, who the hell is killing them?

But of course you won't believe anything from the UN.


No, I understand that the media is heavily biased and no longer interested in just reporting the news, they report the news as it fits their leftist agenda. This isn't new, it's been this bad for 40+ years now. Certainly you remember the innacurate reporting when you were in Vietnam, right?

Its so damn convenient for guys like you. If the media reports anything that you don't like, its because of their leftist agenda.

Frankly, I don't recall inaccurate reporting about Vietnam. Just as in Iraq, the media showed people getting killed. That's what happens in a war, even if you don't want the public to realize it.

You would really be pissed at the way the LA Times distorts reality. They actually make up fake young men that they claim were killed, print photos of them, and print obituaries about their lives. And since its a huge metropolitan area with many low income people, they get away with this sham. You would think someone would eventually call them on it. For instance another guy who went to that high school, or maybe the high school administration, would speak up and say that the guy never existed, but so far they are getting away with it all the time. Its shameful how the liberal media gets away with lies like this.

But then how the hell would I know whether the reporting from Vietnam was accurate anyway? Didn't you prove that I was never a Marine and was just making believe?

[lens]

Hey, the "Autocrat" is back? :rolleyes:

Maybe this is just a benighted conversation but….

Not so. Outside of Baghdad, the murder rate is lower then some of our cities, like Washington D.C..

Ummm.........D.C. has one of the highest murder rates in the U.S.

Man you are bad at analogies.

Second, yes, record level of civilians are being killed Iraq right now. That is Fact, not just a UN fact but from the Pentagon! Is that credible enough for you?



That's a misquote, he said that in the context of a U.S. military victory over the insurgency. No military or government official has ever said otherwise..

Well I guess you just want say BS without actually providing facts.

First, Kissinger is the last man we should take advice from on war.

Second, his quote was more like "We cannot win in Iraq with Bush's current plan!" and "We can't leave right now, but we can't stay much longer." and "We have to define what winning is." <--- Man, gotta love that political babble!


What generals are these? Certainly not Abizaid, Casey, Pace, etc. Are referring to Wes Clark?.

I think this has already been answered. In fact, I think exact quotes and service records were provided. Just depends on if you like facts or not. We all know you like to cherry pick the facts.



No, I understand that the media is heavily biased and no longer interested in just reporting the news, they report the news as it fits their leftist agenda. This isn't new, it's been this bad for 40+ years now. Certainly you remember the innacurate reporting when you were in Vietnam, right?.

I can see that you don't have an understanding of what the 4th estates duties to America are. Study up! When it comes to facts you have two choices; Work for the Truth or make the truth work for you. I find you in the ladder!


Thanks to Al Gore (he invented the internet) we now have other sources of news that handily expose their agendas and more accurately report the facts.

Yeah....we have all seen your sources. Pretty much all right wing conspiracy theory sites. You are no better than the far left conspiracy theorist.

Just to clue you in. Most certified organizations, gather their news information from the Associated Press or Reuters. It ALL comes from the same place.

[apnea_complex]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v29/faithhas_fallen/29900877_l.jpg

[lens]

Man......your good, did you come up with that all by yourself?

I bet you are a real quick wit..........Man that was good!

I got to tell you, you are fresh. You took an image of a crying baby and framed it with the reference of crying Democrats. HaHAHa hmmmmmm.

Oh man, real original. What a big girl you are.....way to bring something to the table. Way to be unique. I bet you are the life of the party. What a novel idea?

:rolleyes:

[apnea_complex]

Sorry, I did not come up with that-I found it on the internet. So I guess I'm still a little girl.


In my defense, I'm nor Republican, or Democrat...I just thought this was funny.


Its just the internet, don't get your panties in a bunch.

[lens]

No panties here:cool:

I can handle it whether it was a joke, personal attack or whatever.......guess you could not tell, I was providing you with a comeback or rather a quip or a wise-crack?

It was in reference to Stewie.

[elCajuna Grande]

Frankly, I don't recall inaccurate reporting about Vietnam.

Well, I guess you've never seen the clip of Cronkite telling the American people, with that little gleam in his eye... " the Vietnam war is lost"

[Bill McIntyre]

Well, I guess you've never seen the clip of Cronkite telling the American people, with that little gleam in his eye... " the Vietnam war is lost"

No, I don't. Its funny how people who were not even alive then, or at least so young that they were not watching the news, fix on things that people who were involved didn't even notice.

But in any case, that was accurate reporting. We lost.

And if someone now said "The Iraq War is lost" that would be accurate too. The way in which we will lose is still in doubt, but there is no way to see a conclusion that could be good for us. Its just a question of which bad option we will take, but they all amount to losing.

There is no foreseeable outcome that will justify the price we have paid in lives and money.

[swathdiver]

The UN just reported that 3,709 civilians were killed in October, the highest number since the invasion. If its not civil war, who the hell is killing them?

Where's the connection? There are death squads from the Shia and Sunnis killing each other off. These death squads were started by and are propped up by the insurgents and leftover muderous thugs of Saddam's regime. The majority of the killings are taking place where the bulk of the media is concentrated, Baghdad.

But of course you won't believe anything from the UN.

Not unless it was from Bolton or Rice. The UN was created by commies as part of their goal of one world government made up of socialist states.


Frankly, I don't recall inaccurate reporting about Vietnam.

The Tet Offensive doesn't ring a bell? Those folks watching the 6 o'clock news thought the war was lost, those fighting it knew we clobbered them, virtually wiping out the Viet Cong in the south.


Didn't you prove that I was never a Marine and was just making believe?

Nope.

[Bill McIntyre]

Where's the connection? There are death squads from the Shia and Sunnis killing each other off. These death squads were started by and are propped up by the insurgents and leftover muderous thugs of Saddam's regime. The majority of the killings are taking place where the bulk of the media is concentrated, Baghdad.

Sunnis and Shias who used to live among each other no longer feel safe doing so. They are killing each other off. Sounds like civil war to me.


The Tet Offensive doesn't ring a bell? Those folks watching the 6 o'clock news thought the war was lost, those fighting it knew we clobbered them, virtually wiping out the Viet Cong in the south.

And so then we won the war? I missed that.

[elCajuna Grande]

Its funny how people who were not even alive then, or at least so young that they were not watching the news, fix on things that people who were involved didn't even notice.

whats the point of that statement?
I was young then,
having 2 older brothers involved
we watched the evening news in my home...

back to the point,
the statement was inaccurate at the time, just as it would be today
it's obvious that the mainstream media cares not if we succeed in Iraq.

[Fondueset]

Cronkite's remark was during an editorial. For those who don't know - an editorial is called that because it is an opinion piece. An editorial not a news report. And what he said was that, in his opinion, the vietnam war was unwinnable. Again, just to be clear IN AN EDITORIAL . The purpose of an editorial - is to express AN OPINION. It so happens Cronkite was right in his OPINION. It's also worth noting the Vietnam War was started based on a false report of NV gunboats firing on a US ship which the government chose to run with rather than admit they were wrong.

In any case - it was an opinion (not a news report )and it turned out to be accurate.

Regarding Iraq - Bush senior chose not to press into Iraq because he and his advisors thought it would inevitably degenerate into a civil war. They thought this because Iraq has only been held together by force ever since the British created it and enforced it with military force.

The merging of the three provinces of Mosul, Baghdad, and Basra into one political entity and the creation of a nation out of the diverse religious and ethnic elements inhabiting these lands was accomplished after World War I. Action undertaken by the British military authorities during the war and the upsurge of nationalism after the war helped determine the shape of the new Iraqi state and the course of events during the postwar years,

Bush sr understood the volatile ethnic tensions in Iraq enough to see there would be no reasonable way to secure the peace after an invasion. Bush jr came into office with Iraq on his mind and, encouraged by advisors such as Richard Perle (who, interestingly, also worked for an Isreali funded think tank at the time) used 9/11 as a pretext to justify his invasion. Since political expediency was the primary consideration he undertook the invasion using a politically correct small number of troops - with shortfalls in equipement etc. - under the correct assumption that the Iraqi army would fall quickly - and the starkly mistaken assumption that the Iraqi army was ever really the problem. He and his advisors seemed to lack any understanding of the culture and history of Iraq - as well as of the strategic and tactical considerations involved in securing an occupied nation.

As anyone with active intelligence knew would happen many months before the invasion - Iraq has become a training and recruiting bonanza for Al Qaida. Moreover - before the war even began Bush was pulling troops out of afghanistan - which - as you may know - had many times more ordinance dropped on it last month than Iraq has in several.

In my opinion - the correct procedure would have been to forget about Iraq. Sadaam Hussien is a classic sociopath - not a religous ideologue. He could be counted on to look after his own best interest and was therefore easily controllable. He, in turn, had an iron grip on the potential firestorm that was Iraq. Evidence is he was losing it, but if Iraq fell apart under his grip there not likely be any Al-Qaida involvement because the highly sectarian, xenophobic tribal culture would not tolerate it. We, in other words; give them a common enemy. The bit about WMDs was Hooey from day one - at least that's what my friends who were there six months before the invasion (no - not with the UN) said - and I quote "the only WMDs over here are the restaraunts". but I digress - the intelligent move was to secure Afghanistan - establish a comfortable and secure life for the citizens there - and maintain it. This would've accomplished several things - Create a model state in the neighborhood. Creat good will. Plant the 'mind-bomb' in the middle east. And deny AQ a base of operations. (they sure weren't going to Iraq with SH in power - they were a threat to him. And the Iranians won't tolerate them either on at least two counts - one - Iran is Shia - AQ is sunni/wahabe - Iranians are Persians; not arabs. That would have left Syria and Saudi Arabia - both non-starters for AQ. Hezbollah wants to be legit - AQ undermines that. AQ is an obvious threat and a huge international embarassment to Saudi. Maybe they'd head up to Russia :)
And this is not hindsight - I wrote all this shit out a year before the invasion.

Afghanistan was a huge opportunity. To say these guys have blown it is an even bigger understatement.

Another interesting question is what business entity has made the most money off this deal? How is it they just happened to be THE company with the best logistical positioning in the event of a war in Iraq?

[Bill McIntyre]

it's obvious that the mainstream media cares not if we succeed in Iraq.

I can't imagine why anyone would think that is true. The mainstream media is a bunch of Americans. What possible reason could the media have for wanting us to fail? How could it benefit the media? It makes no sense.

The media is just doing its job, reporting to the best of its ability what is going on, and what is going on is shit.

While I was sitting watching Borat this afternoon, my mind wandered back to that statement about us virtually wiping out the VC in South Vietnam during the Tet offensive, but the media covering up our success.

I ended a 13 month tour in Vietnam just a few weeks before the Tet offensive began. I went to Beeville, TX and trained pilots to go fight the war, and then in two years I had orders back to Vietnam. At my going-away party at the Officers's Club, the CO spoke the obligatory words about what a shit-hot flight instructor I had been, and then it was my turn to say something.

I said that I thought I had won the war when I left the first tour, but apparently I was mistaken, and now they wanted me to go back and do it right. That line got a lot of laughs, but I think the smiles on the faces of some of the wives may have been a bit forced.

Anyway, if we had won the war during Tet, why the hell was I sent back?

Edit- thanks Fondueset for clearing that up about the editorial vs. a news report.

[Fondueset]

That reminds me. Anybody watching Madonna's 'Confessions' special tonight? Right now she's doing some kind pole dance on a giant chrome merry-go-round saddle thing. As a performer she's a better military strategist than Bush. :rant:

The media was pretty much owned by the administration for the first four years. Now that the worm has turned it's all girly man whining about the 'liberal media'.

(Bill, I have to differ with you a little on this - the media is mostly about $$ these days - in my humble opinion. Of course thats a generalization - with all the problems that go with it..and there are notable exceptions)

[swathdiver]

Sunnis and Shias who used to live among each other no longer feel safe doing so. They are killing each other off. Sounds like civil war to me.

When you get your news from the drive-by media it's easy to believe because that's all they report.

The fact is, the Iraqi police and military are made up of Shia, Sunni and Kurds and they serve alongside each other all over the country. It's no different in the cities, they are thoroughly integrated. But you wouldn't know that listening to John Stewart or Catie Couric. The folks taking part in the sectarian violence are a former Saddam loyalists, rascists and of course elements of Al Queda. :thumps:

[elCajuna Grande]

The mainstream media is a bunch of Americans. What possible reason could the media have for wanting us to fail? How could it benefit the media?


It's also worth noting the Vietnam War was started based on a false report of NV gunboats firing on a US ship which the government chose to run with rather than admit they were wrong.

yep, once again,
America is the problem...
not to fret though,
we will soon be overtaken by this cancer known as political corrrectness...
I do feel a sence of repreive though...
after the Christians,
the homosexuals and media will be the next to have their throats slashed :thumps:

[Bill McIntyre]

yep, once again,
America is the problem...
not to fret though,
we will soon be overtaken by this cancer known as political corrrectness...
I do feel a sence of repreive though...
after the Christians,
the homosexuals and media will be the next to have their throats slashed :thumps:

Yes, America can be the problem. America can do wrong. American leaders can lie to us and lead us into wars we shouldn't wage.

It happened in Vietnam, and it happened in Iraq. But shit, it happened in the Spanish-American War too. Take a close look at our leaders over the centuries, and you will notice a distinct absence of halos.

In the Johnson tapes you can hear him talking to an old senate buddy and say that he knows that Vietnam is a lost cause and not worth the American lives, but he can't say that publicly because he is running against Barry Goldwater and can't appear weak on defense. It shocking, but the bastard put his political success ahead of American lives.

Grow up and get used to it. America is not a very good country unless you compare it to second best, and then it looks very good. But one of the reasons its good is that we are free to question government out in the open and another reason is freedom of the press so that the media can openly call bullshit. But a lot of people, including some on this board, think its not patriotic to criticize government and its not patriotic for the media to tell it the way it is. If the founding fathers had felt that way, we would still be a British colony.

I can't even respond to that shit about those who will get their throats cut because it makes no sense in the context of what I think you are saying.

[elCajuna Grande]

America is not a very good country


Why do you choose to live here?

[elCajuna Grande]

America is not a very good country

:stupid:

[Bill McIntyre]

Why do you choose to live here?

Aw c'mon. Did you really not read the entire sentence, or are you just trying to play a game?

To save you the trouble of looking back at my post, the sentence read

America is not a very good country unless you compare it to second best, and then it looks very good.

If that is too hard to interpret, its kind of like the famous quote by Winston Churchill, when he said

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." (from a House of Commons speech on Nov. 11, 1947)

Now do you get it?

[elCajuna Grande]

America is not a very good country

I agree...
homosexuals, rap music and taco bell :thumps:

oh yeah, don't forget MTV :lol:

[Marcus]

That's a misquote, he said that in the context of a U.S. military victory over the insurgency.

Thanks to Al Gore (he invented the internet) we now have other sources of news that handily expose their agendas and more accurately report the facts.


Oh...that was rich. Accuse someone of misquoting then in the same breath misquote someone yourself.
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

[Bill McIntyre]

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/112106K.shtml

[Bill McIntyre]

More lies from the liberal press. Those bastards will do anything to keep us from knowing how really well its going.

More Than 140 Bodies Turn Up on Baghdad Streets
CNN News

Wednesday 22 November 2006

Baghdad - More than 140 bodies have been found dumped across Baghdad over the past three days, police said Wednesday.

Police said 52 bullet-riddled bodies were found Wednesday, with 20 of them blindfolded, tied up and possibly tortured.

Police also discovered 29 bodies on Tuesday and 60 on Monday.

The dead are thought to be victims of Sunni-Shiite sectarian revenge killings.

That word came as the U.N. Assistance Mission for Iraq issued a grim bimonthly human rights report that underscored the instability and death resulting from sectarian violence.

The report said 7,054 civilians were killed violently in September and October in Iraq, with almost 5,000 in Baghdad alone -- most of them shot to death and showing signs of torture.

November's death toll continued to rise Wednesday as gunmen in Baghdad shot and killed a bodyguard of Iraq's parliament speaker and a journalist for a state newspaper.

In Baquba, about 40 miles (60 kilometers) northeast of Baghdad, gunmen killed three Iraqi police officers on patrol Wednesday morning, a police official said.

North of Baquba near Muqtadya, two Iraqis were killed, including an Iraqi soldier, and five others were wounded during two separate attacks targeting an Iraqi army checkpoint, the official said.

The U.S. military said Wednesday that two U.S. soldiers were killed Tuesday in northern Iraq.

A Task Force Lightning soldier assigned to 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 82nd Airborne Division was killed and three others were wounded when a roadside bomb blew up near their vehicle in Salaheddin province, the military said.

Another soldier from the same unit also was killed Tuesday in a noncombat incident.

The American military death toll in Iraq is 2,869, including seven American civilian contractors of the military. There have been 49 troop deaths during November.

And separately, from the lying UN's report:

"Many of the death squads and rival militias have direct links with or are supported by influential political parties belonging to the government and are not hiding their affiliation," the report says. "Militias and other armed groups are said to be in control of whole areas in the east and west of Baghdad and continue to carry out illegal policing, manning of checkpoints and 'dispensation of justice' through illegal trials and extrajudicial executions."

Please let me know when we have won.

[Bill McIntyre]

We Support Our Troops (with bumper stickers)

[Marcus]

I seen a car the other day with one of those "we support our troops" ribbon stickers but this one had a business name written on it...I just shook my head in disgust.

[Fondueset]

I saw one that said 'God still speaks through Bushes'
Which brings up an interesting point. Alot of people seem to think the reason for separation of church and state was to support freedom of religion. In point of fact it was to prevent the government from attributing divine authority to itself.

[Bill McIntyre]

Looks like its going downhill fast. The government will come apart of the Prime Minister meets with Bush, but what happens if he refuses?

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/112406A.shtml

[aaron proffitt]

[QUOTE=swathdiver]Kofi? Who care what he says? QUOTE]

It's the second part that interested me...doomed if we stay,doomed if we go.

Found it interesting that was said at all.

[Bill McIntyre]

We have now been in Iraq longer than we were involved in WWII.

But long before the end of WWII, we knew we were going to win.

[Ironhed]

We have now been in Iraq longer than we were involved in WWII.

But long before the end of WWII, we knew we were going to win.
ever wonder if we are at the start of WWIII :rolleyes:

[inletsurf]

Iraq asks Iran today for help in controlling the lawless fighting. This will pose a huge problem with the US.

[jadairiii]

We have now been in Iraq longer than we were involved in WWII.

But long before the end of WWII, we knew we were going to win.

Apples vs. Oranges. The US “war” policy in WWII was a bit different than in Iraq. Does the town of Dresden ring any bells with you?

There were over 1.8 MILLION civilian casualties in Germany alone, I do believe that this “war” would have been over long ago if our bombing policies of WWII were implemented in Iraq. I am not advocating that, but if you are going to compare WWII to Iraq, please know what the hell you are talking about.

It is just too easy to make off the wall comments and there are a lot of people on the internet that think history is what happened on Desperate Housewives last week.

John

[Bill McIntyre]

Yes, I've heard of Dresden. My daughter lived there for 6 years and I visited several times. Her husband's father saw his mother and sister killed next to him by an American bomb while they were hiding in a basement, so he had a hard time adjusting to the fact that his son was marrying an American girl.

My father and uncle fought in Germany and Italy in WWII and my wife was a history teacher, so please don't imply that all I know of history is what I saw on Desperate Housewives. I haven't seen the program, but I was not aware that it was on the History Channel anyway.

But whatever TV programs I watch, I'm glad you don't think we should have repeated the fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo in Iraq. After all, why should we? It would have damaged all those oil wells that we were told would pay all the expenses for our short war.

WWII was fought for our national survival, and everyone expected we would be in it as long as it took. I recall my father's reaction when I came home from a 13 month tour in Vietnam. He said that he had to stay in Europe until he won.

We were told that Iraq would be a cakewalk, with the people throwing flowers in front of our troops. We were going to depose Saddam, install a democratic government that would serve as an example to all of the Middle East, and be out of there. We were even told "Mission Accomplished" by the President. How long ago was that?

So given what we were told, I think its very pertinent to note that we have been engaged longer than we were in WWII.

[mcjaret]

If you are going to compare length of conflicts, maybe you should also compare the number of casualties.

[Queer for Spear]

The main stream media is owned by big business, you will only be told (or reported to) the stories that make you feel lucky, horny, hungry and or give a warm and fuzzy feeling, but above all, you will only be told what will make you buy the many products of these corporations. Occaisionally some spin is thrown in there to give you the feeling that somebody is in some kind of disagreement with this current shitty govts modus operandus. What better way to defeat your detractors than to secretly BE the detractor. What an ingenius plan. Dont be naive. Dont ever underestimate the power of these gigantic corporations. Hint: they are not all American corporations. Greed knows no borders or nationalities.

Iraq is a disaster and a mistake when viewed by the vision "we are there to help", we are NOT there to help, we couldnt give 2 shits about the plight of any Iraqi citizen under Saddam, the few smart ones in the arab world know we are there trying to install a "police dept" in the middle east for protection of our own personal gas station that will help us to continue our ridiculous lifestyles of overweight largesse and our ways of 4500 sq foot McMansions in the suburbs, SUV's and lumpenleisure. This is the "United States of Amnesia", nobody knows shit, nobody wants to know shit and nobody cares, unless its on TV with a NASCAR or NFL theme. If they didnt have oil, we would pay about as much atention to them as say, Darfur. "Oh thats terrible, but what will I have for lunch today ?"

We have given this country away with greed of the multinational corporations who have offshored or outsourced our entire manufacturing infrastructure for the bottom line. We are DOOMED...I Believe.

It cant be changed by you or me, deal with it, spearfish hard and play lots of golf, soon this country will not be 1/4th of what it is today. Oh, and eat dessert first, life is very unpredictable.

Until we have a financial collapse that DIRECTLY affects "Joe Lunch bucket" NOTHING will be done about it. He will watch the "March Madness", eat buffalo wings and swill budweiser, until he is "thrown into reality" It will probably be too damned late then. Im pretty sure it will be.

That crash may or may not come anytime soon, depends on how good this govt is at keeping it's agenda hidden and the prime networks programming ability to be able to continue to distract the average dumb American.

One world, one government, thats the plan, not freedom and justice for all. Those days are GONE, and gone for good, not with the population explosions were experiencing the last 40 years.

War is BIG business. It is not designed to do anything other than make the rich people and rich countries richer and in a small way, help to control the population while militarily employing those who would probably be underemployed or unemployed, with the few exceptions of National Guardsmen being deployed.

It is not Bush's fault, it is NOT Kerry's fault, these jokers are the bit players in a HUGE corporate game of "The world is Not Enough" !!! Whichever party gets elected, it is the same as the other, the same face with 2 different masks.

One would do well to reaquaint themselves with the old Orwell "1984" book again, what is happening is very obvious then. Its the multinational corporation's official playbook and its been right under the mass population's nose the entire time !! But rest assured....nobody will look. Not while Brittany Spears is maybe getting pregnant again......you know, important stuff like that !

The big banks are and have always been financing BOTH sides of every war. Its the way it is. Look into it sometime when you get the chance and have more than a passing interest into the way things work. You will find, like Bill M. say's, this country is a bully and it sucks for the most part, but better than anything else out there.

I personally only live here because there is no better place for me to be. I have looked, I dont have the millions of dollars necesarry to insulate me from the trouble and anarchy should (when) it occur and fly away to my special place in the Swiss Alps when the shit hits the fan. So I stay, plus I am a citizen of this country, I foolishly, still have some misplaced pride in our formerly great nation. I fought for it. I dont generally vocalize about it, not anymore.
With the decline of America, also goes the hope of many oppressed foreigners who always looked to this country for salvation, leadership and how things SHOULD be.....but instead we give them crooked politicians like Duke Cuningham, NBA and Desperate Housewives and promote those queers making silly/stupid movies in hollyweird.
Our govt now is as corrupt and blatant as any 3rd world dictatorial shithole or banana republic....Its sad.

War is the biggest, most profitable endeavour of this civilization.

Google up "Peak Oil" and it might clear up a few things that many here may feel is the reason for this war. Also, while your at it, try and figure this one out ...... There are 7 BILLION people on this planet now, who the hell is going to feed them ? The answers are obvious, but those answers are very cruel also.

Semper Fi,

[bikewrench]

The main stream media is owned by big business, you will only be told (or reported to) the stories that make you feel lucky, horny, hungry and or give a warm and fuzzy feeling, but above all, you will only be told what will make you buy the many products of these corporations. Occaisionally some spin is thrown in there to give you the feeling that somebody is in some kind of disagreement with this current shitty govts modus operandus. What better way to defeat your detractors than to secretly BE the detractor. What an ingenius plan. Dont be naive. Dont ever underestimate the power of these gigantic corporations. Hint: they are not all American corporations. Greed knows no borders or nationalities.

Iraq is a disaster and a mistake when viewed by the vision "we are there to help", we are NOT there to help, we couldnt give 2 shits about the plight of any Iraqi citizen under Saddam, the few smart ones in the arab world know we are there trying to install a "police dept" in the middle east for protection of our own personal gas station that will help us to continue our ridiculous lifestyles of overweight largesse and our ways of 4500 sq foot McMansions in the suburbs, SUV's and lumpenleisure. This is the "United States of Amnesia", nobody knows shit, nobody wants to know shit and nobody cares, unless its on TV with a NASCAR or NFL theme. If they didnt have oil, we would pay about as much atention to them as say, Darfur. "Oh thats terrible, but what will I have for lunch today ?"

We have given this country away with greed of the multinational corporations who have offshored or outsourced our entire manufacturing infrastructure for the bottom line. We are DOOMED...I Believe.

It cant be changed by you or me, deal with it, spearfish hard and play lots of golf, soon this country will not be 1/4th of what it is today. Oh, and eat dessert first, life is very unpredictable.

Until we have a financial collapse that DIRECTLY affects "Joe Lunch bucket" NOTHING will be done about it. He will watch the "March Madness", eat buffalo wings and swill budweiser, until he is "thrown into reality" It will probably be too damned late then. Im pretty sure it will be.

That crash may or may not come anytime soon, depends on how good this govt is at keeping it's agenda hidden and the prime networks programming ability to be able to continue to distract the average dumb American.

One world, one government, thats the plan, not freedom and justice for all. Those days are GONE, and gone for good, not with the population explosions were experiencing the last 40 years.

War is BIG business. It is not designed to do anything other than make the rich people and rich countries richer and in a small way, help to control the population while militarily employing those who would probably be underemployed or unemployed, with the few exceptions of National Guardsmen being deployed.

It is not Bush's fault, it is NOT Kerry's fault, these jokers are the bit players in a HUGE corporate game of "The world is Not Enough" !!! Whichever party gets elected, it is the same as the other, the same face with 2 different masks.

One would do well to reaquaint themselves with the old Orwell "1984" book again, what is happening is very obvious then. Its the multinational corporation's official playbook and its been right under the mass population's nose the entire time !! But rest assured....nobody will look. Not while Brittany Spears is maybe getting pregnant again......you know, important stuff like that !

The big banks are and have always been financing BOTH sides of every war. Its the way it is. Look into it sometime when you get the chance and have more than a passing interest into the way things work. You will find, like Bill M. say's, this country is a bully and it sucks for the most part, but better than anything else out there.

I personally only live here because there is no better place for me to be. I have looked, I dont have the millions of dollars necesarry to insulate me from the trouble and anarchy should (when) it occur and fly away to my special place in the Swiss Alps when the shit hits the fan. So I stay, plus I am a citizen of this country, I foolishly, still have some misplaced pride in our formerly great nation. I fought for it. I dont generally vocalize about it, not anymore.
With the decline of America, also goes the hope of many oppressed foreigners who always looked to this country for salvation, leadership and how things SHOULD be.....but instead we give them crooked politicians like Duke Cuningham, NBA and Desperate Housewives and promote those queers making silly/stupid movies in hollyweird.
Our govt now is as corrupt and blatant as any 3rd world dictatorial shithole or banana republic....Its sad.

War is the biggest, most profitable endeavour of this civilization.

Google up "Peak Oil" and it might clear up a few things that many here may feel is the reason for this war. Also, while your at it, try and figure this one out ...... There are 7 BILLION people on this planet now, who the hell is going to feed them ? The answers are obvious, but those answers are very cruel also.

Semper Fi,
:stupid:
Well said. Another good read that exposes some of this is Confessions of an Ecconomic Hitman

[Wooley]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v29/faithhas_fallen/29900877_l.jpg
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Bill McIntyre]

Tonight's News Hour on PBS had a piece from Margaret Warner in Turkey. Its the most democratic Muslim nation, and Turks have generally always considered us as strong allies and a model.

But since the invasion of Iraq, the young people in particular are turning against us because we invaded a neighbor for no good reason.

Both the people on the street and government officials are pissed that we are not controlling the hard line Kurdish guerillas who are coming across the border, laying mines, and blowing up Turkish civilians. Of course we don't have the resources or the will to try to control those guys since they are the least of our own problems, but the Turks are worried about a "Greater Kurdistan."

And of course that is just part of our problem. We want the Syrians and the Iranians to help with Iraq, but what price will they exact from us? The Iranians know we are overextended and powerless short of a nuke, so they may ask us to lay off on our objections to their nuclear program.

The Syrians may just ask that we lay off on our objections to their meddling in Lebanon.

Both countries have us by the short hairs. Where once we were the most dominant power in the Middle East, Iran is now on the ascendency while we are on the decline.

It sure has worked out well, hasn't it?

[jadairiii]

Tonight's News Hour on PBS had a piece from Margaret Warner in Turkey. Its the most democratic Muslim nation, and Turks have generally always considered us as strong allies and a model.

But since the invasion of Iraq, the young people in particular are turning against us because we invaded a neighbor for no good reason.

Both the people on the street and government officials are pissed that we are not controlling the hard line Kurdish guerillas who are coming across the border, laying mines, and blowing up Turkish civilians. Of course we don't have the resources or the will to try to control those guys since they are the least of our own problems, but the Turks are worried about a "Greater Kurdistan."

And of course that is just part of our problem. We want the Syrians and the Iranians to help with Iraq, but what price will they exact from us? The Iranians know we are overextended and powerless short of a nuke, so they may ask us to lay off on our objections to their nuclear program.

The Syrians may just ask that we lay off on our objections to their meddling in Lebanon.

Both countries have us by the short hairs. Where once we were the most dominant power in the Middle East, Iran is now on the ascendency while we are on the decline.

It sure has worked out well, hasn't it?

If you are going to write stuff like this at least have some knowledge of history. Turks hate the Kurds, Kurds hate the Turks. Both sides have been dabbling in ethnic cleansing for about 1000 years( give or take). Kurds have been fighting to be a sovereign nation for about that long. Last big screwing of the Kurds was after WWI when yet again they were not granted independence. Turks did not give a rats ass (and neither did the world) when Iraq was slaughtering the Kurds by the thousands for the last 30 years.

2006, now the Kurds have the northern oil fields, a small but growing army, stability, and as Iraq proper melts down, they are coming ever closer to being independent and a real thorn in Turkey’s side since the Kurds will undoubtedly want back the Kurdish regions of Turkey that were taken from them by a stroke of a pen. Also remember that the US had to place troops at Turkey’s border with Iraq (at the beginning of this fiasco) to keep them from coming in, killing more Kurds and taking the northern oil fields. Obviously these two paragraphs may over simplify the Kurd/Turk issues, but based on you last post, it is much more than you seem to grasp.

The western world has failed the middle east since before WWI, don’t lay all this on the current US government. Change is often painful. Please, before you post anymore “baby boomer” logic, go back and bone up on the history of this region, at least back 200 years. And yes I know that your wife is a history teacher, you have said that before.

John

[Bill McIntyre]

Obviously these two paragraphs may over simplify the Kurd/Turk issues, but based on you last post, it is much more than you seem to grasp.

The western world has failed the middle east since before WWI, don’t lay all this on the current US government. Change is often painful. Please, before you post anymore “baby boomer” logic, go back and bone up on the history of this region, at least back 200 years. And yes I know that your wife is a history teacher, you have said that before.

John

John, I know all that history, but I didn't think it was necessary to lay it all out to impress everyone. Most of it was beside the point.

The point was, the Turks have been one of our strongest allies in the Muslim world, and they are upset that we are not keeping the Kurds from coming across the border. We conquered the country, so according to international law, we are responsible for security. Older Turks still tend to look at us a friend and model, but the younger generation looks at us like an invader. That doesn't bode well for our future influence in the Middle East.

And according to the piece on PBS, they were again on the verge of sending troops across the border very recently. The Turkish people have a right to expect their government to protect them, and they ask why its not doing it. Of course it would really screw it up for us to have to deal with Turks crossing the border and engage in combat with one of our few important allies in the region when we can't even handle the present problems.

[Im1chunkymunky]

...Grow up and get used to it. America is not a very good country unless you compare it to second best, and then it looks very good.

exactly...so, stop complaining! and if its not good enough for ou go live somewhere else.

Bill-nothing against you personally, you inut alot of good advice on this forum, but ANYONE that has a statement to make like that, can go live somewhere else. live in some other country for awhile then come back and start complaining again.

Right or wrong, good or bad, whatever each individual believes the decison to go to war was, it was made, maybe it was a bad thing, but our country is still great! if we want to discuss these situations thats fine, but leave our nation's greatnes out of it!!!!

[lens]

exactly...so, stop complaining! and if its not good enough for ou go live somewhere else.

Bill-nothing against you personally, you inut alot of good advice on this forum, but ANYONE that has a statement to make like that, can go live somewhere else. live in some other country for awhile then come back and start complaining again.

Right or wrong, good or bad, whatever each individual believes the decison to go to war was, it was made, maybe it was a bad thing, but our country is still great! if we want to discuss these situations thats fine, but leave our nation's greatnes out of it!!!!

:confused:
Did you read his post and the following replies in context? No need to answer that. I can tell you did not. Maybe ADD will be the downfall of us? ;)

What you stated above is flat out ignorant! In fact it is borderline "communistic", maybe even "fanatical patriotism or chauvinism."

Or it could be a communication problem in your statement? :rolleyes:

Our country's greatness is judged only by our actions!

Remember that!

[Bill McIntyre]

Chunkymonkey, if you think that was offensive, then I don't even know how to reply. As lens said, did you read it in context? Did you read my clarification comparing it to Churchill's statement about democracy being the worst system until you compared it to the others?

Let me try once more to spell it out. Our country is not perfect. Democracy is not perfect. If you think either of them are, then you are a very simplistic thinker.

And as lens said, its only by our actions that we can be judged. I think its our duty as citizens to speak out when we don't agree with our political leadership. If you don't think we should speak out, then why don't you move to China or Russia where that sort of thing is discouraged.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

John, I know all that history, but I didn't think it was necessary to lay it all out to impress everyone. Most of it was beside the point.

The point was, the Turks have been one of our strongest allies in the Muslim world, and they are upset that we are not keeping the Kurds from coming across the border. We conquered the country, so according to international law, we are responsible for security. Older Turks still tend to look at us a friend and model, but the younger generation looks at us like an invader. That doesn't bode well for our future influence in the Middle East.

And according to the piece on PBS, they were again on the verge of sending troops across the border very recently. The Turkish people have a right to expect their government to protect them, and they ask why its not doing it. Of course it would really screw it up for us to have to deal with Turks crossing the border and engage in combat with one of our few important allies in the region when we can't even handle the present problems. The Turks have been allies when they needed us maybe you could point out what they have done for us. I have the good fortune of doing business with them and they are self serving at best, while its not good to stereo type, I have found doing business with them all the same.

[Im1chunkymunky]

of course nothing is perfect..noone said that it is. what i said is that we should be proud and grateful to live in this country, and not stuck somewhere else. i know you are saying in comparison to other places it is good, and it is, but why look at it that way?

**i'm not claiming any fact here, but asking: If america didn't "stick its nose in other countries' business", how screwed up could the world possibly get? civil wars spreading across continents? stronger countries taking over smaller weaker ones? more terrorist attacks? ...this doesnt apply so much to the above, but countries like indonesia protesting Bush's visit is ridiculous, when they had the disasters over there and we sent help, they would probably still be in too much chaos to even think twice about a protest.

but about before, i wasnt intending to bash anyone, sorry if i did. we should be able to speak out, but speaking out, and saying that our country is run by a bunch of idiots (general comment, this isnt just about us present). and representatives who had voted for the war, now trying to say that they received doctored information by the president, which would probably be classified as the biggest conspiracy theory in our governmental history) is a lame attempt at putting all the blame on the republican party. all of that just seems like anti patriotism, or maybe just a jab to win votes? whether the US does something dumb or genius, shouldnt change our patriotism and love for our country. i have friends whose family members are serving in Iraq and they dont complain about it. people dying is a tragedy, but who wants another 9/11?

communistic??? i didnt say anyone should be kicked out of this nation, or be forced to like it, but if america isnt that good then try another place to compare to. then being proud of it may not be so bad.

[Im1chunkymunky]

Our country's greatness is judged only by our actions!

Remember that!

how about our freedoms to have such conversations? or maybe our generosity to make an effort to make the world a better place? instead of only doing what is good for us?


i'd say that's pretty great for us and anyone else who can appreciate it

[Marcus]

Chunky, you are really naive.

[bikewrench]

There is no doubt that compared to other countries ours is among the 'best' in which to live. The 'average' American has it better than just about anyone else. So what is the problem? Why is there anyone complaining? Because some are not so sure our position is a "God given right". Some think that maybe we have it so good at the expense of those less fortunate who were born elsewhere. Consider this: the 'average' American is not the 'average' human being. In fact we are a distinct minority on Earth. The 'average' human lives in a shack or hut and has no running water or electricity. The 'average' human being has no access to clean water, quality health care, or education. The 'average' human can expect to live not much longer than about age 55 or so. The 'average' human lives in a third world country and can expect very little in the way of basic human rights. We here in the United States, Europe, and a few other odd countries are the exception. We in the 'First World' make up less than half of the population of the Earth. So what is the problem? The problem is that we in the first world chew up a massive percentage of the Earth's resources. Just one example, We in the USA make up only 5% of the Earth's population yet we consume over 25% of the energy used by all people on Earth. That disparity of consumption exists for just about every resource you can name. So what is the problem? Why do we 'have it so great'? Because we are using all of the goodies, much of which we take from third world countries, and we actively keep others from getting their share. Middle Easterners hate us because we have installed governments that are friendly to our oil needs and repressive to their own people. In just about all shit-hole third world countries there is a ruling elite who are typically educated in this country, supported (overtly and covertly) by our government, take their orders from our government, and do BIG business with our companies. Meanwhile the other 99% live in their own feces and watch their children die of malnutrition. (Unless of course they can get a 'good job' making Nikes or Wal-mart jeans for $1.00/day.) Its won't last forever though. All of us on Earth are consuming resources at such an insane rate that in twenty years we will need three Earth's worth of resources just to maintain lifestyles at today's growth rate. And , if every person on Earth suddenly woke up tomorrow morning living like an 'average' american (you and me) it would take the resources of five Earths. So if you do the math it doesn't look good. People who speak out against our government realize that this situation is real. They realize that as the human population continues to grow and Earth's resources dwindle, we are headed toward real trouble. Maybe some forsight and leadership would be in order.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

Get off it we did n't invent represive beliefs in the middle east or install the worst governments, nor are we responsible for the misery of third world countries and if you think we stole our prosperity from any of the thirld world countries you are mistaken we use the energy we use be cause we devoloped ways to use it. Would the people of Darfur be better off if we didn't exist or if stuck our noses in it.

[bikewrench]

Get off it we did n't invent represive beliefs in the middle east
No, but we sure take advantage of them.

[Bill McIntyre]

Get off it we did n't invent represive beliefs in the middle east or install the worst governments,

We may not install them, although often we do, but we sure as hell support them.

How about Pinochet in Chile? The CIA took an active part in overthrowing Allende and installing that thug.

In Iran, we took an active part in overthrowing Mossadegh (sp) and installing the Shaw.

We keep sending aid to repressive governments in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and other nations.

Your kidding yourself if you think our hands are clean.

Edit- I hope you already know about Chile. Here is the wikipedia version of Iran.

Mohammed Mossadegh (Mossadeq (help·info))(Persian: ???? ?????? ?, also Mosaddegh or Mosaddeq) (19 May 1882 - 5 March 1967) was the democratically elected[1] prime minister of Iran from 1951 to 1953. He was twice appointed to office by Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran, and approved by the vote of parliament [2]. Mossadegh was a nationalist and passionately opposed foreign intervention in Iran. He was also the architect of the nationalization of the Iranian oil industry which was dominated and exploited by the British through the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (today known as British Petroleum (BP)).
He was later removed from power by Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, in a CIA orchestrated coup[3], supported and funded by the British and the U.S. governments. The coup was led by CIA agent Kermit Roosevelt, Jr.[4][5], the grandson of U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt, and came to be known as Operation Ajax[4], by its secret CIA cryptonym and the "28 Mordad 1332" coup, by its Iranian date. [6][7]

[Im1chunkymunky]

not sure if anyone is aware, but just for reference, wikipedia can be good but it can be bad...anyone with an internet connection can edit articles, and contribute their own information. just keep that in mind and double check your research information from the wikipedia site

[bikewrench]

And if you believe the BS about weapons of mass destruction or, later, removing a repressive dictator in Iraq to make way for a democratic government that "will be a beacon of democracy in the middlleast", I've got a bridge to sell you. Who knows what the complete list of reasons for invading Iraq was (it certainly was not WMD) but for sure it included: billions of dollars spent on war machinery and munitions (benefit- U.S. defense contractors). Billions of dollars spent on rebuilding Iraq infrastructure (benefit- mostly Haliburton and Bechtel Corp.). Billions and billions in bank loans for all the above (benefit- U.S. and European banks). Installation of a democratic (read puppet) government (benefit- securing oil access and military bases for us in the future (hello Iran)). Its no wonder those people are fighting so fiercely.

This is nothing new. This shit has been going on since Cain rocked his brother's world. What is new is the scale of it all. Technology and population growth have gotten us to the point where what happens in one part of the world can cause effects all over the planet. That is why we need new ways of recognizing and solving problems throughout the world. Old school, 'conservative' models of international policy (where we act the bad ass) are doomed to failure. So is hiding your head in the sand.

[bikewrench]

not sure if anyone is aware, but just for reference, wikipedia can be good but it can be bad...anyone with an internet connection can edit articles, and contribute their own information. just keep that in mind and double check your research information from the wikipedia site
Oh yeah, Bill is making shit up to argue with you. Give me a break. There is no point in debating these things with you. Why are you so afraid to open your mind?

[Bill McIntyre]

I am aware that wikipedia is hardly the last-word source. It was just the first easy hit I got with a Google search, and it happens to agree with what is widely known about our role in the overthrow of the Democratically elected leader of Iran.

If you think it was wrong, cite another source that disagrees.

[Im1chunkymunky]

did i ANYWHERE say that his info was wrong or made up? ummmm no i didnt. all i said is that wikipedia is not a reliable source, so if youwanted to be sure of the story i would double check it with another source. if i was going to argue with his information i woulda argued it, not pointed out a user databased site. i figured that someone making up stories woldnt randomly google "Mossadegh". so he obviosly knows about it.

[mnguy]

**i'm not claiming any fact here, but asking: If america didn't "stick its nose in other countries' business", how screwed up could the world possibly get? civil wars spreading across continents? stronger countries taking over smaller weaker ones? more terrorist attacks? ...this doesnt apply so much to the above, but countries like indonesia protesting Bush's visit is ridiculous, when they had the disasters over there and we sent help, they would probably still be in too much chaos to even think twice about a protest.

1) Civil wars in other countries? I don't give a rats ass about any country other than this one and the mother country.

2) See answer to 1).

3) If we didn't stick our noses into other people's business, there'd probably be alot less terrorism aimed our way.

Indonesia is the most populous Muslim country on Earth. W has done a fine job of pissing the bulk of them off, so their protesting his visit is quite warranted, whether or not we gave them money. We gave the Iraqis and by proxy Osama lots of weapons and money over the years, and look what that got us.

"they would probably still be in too much chaos to even think twice about a protest." The tsunamis didn't wipe out Indonesia. It took out some small coastal towns and set a couple of provinces back a bit. The whole country was not in chaos over the matter, even Jakarta wasn't overtly affected or chaotic due to the tsunami.

News flash, by putting someone's sources into question, you are indirectly(though some might say directly) calling his sources wrong/made up.

[elCajuna Grande]

The big banks are and have always been financing BOTH sides of every war.

the book "Monopoly Men"
a good read that will confirm the above statement...

There are 7 BILLION people on this planet now, who the hell is going to feed them ?

there is a war on the horizon that will eliminate over 4 billion...

excellent post Queer

[bikewrench]

there is a war on the horizon that will eliminate over 4 billion... excellent post Queer
I'm not disagreeing with you but I would like to hear you expand on that. The problem I see with that scenario is any war that would eliminate 4 billion people would by necessity destroy what is left of the environment for the remaining 3 billion. In other words, how do you only destroy half the population without destroying the other half? In my mind Nuke-u-ler armageddon is an all or nothing prospect.

There are some well respected scientists out there who give humanity only 50/50 odds of surviving another 100 years. 99% of every species that has ever lived on earth has gone extinct for one reason or another. Doesn't seem like there is any evidence to think we will be any different. Have a good day guys. :)

[Ironhed]

There are some well respected scientists out there who give humanity only 50/50 odds of surviving another 100 years. 99% of every species that has ever lived on earth has gone extinct for one reason or another. Doesn't seem like there is any evidence to think we will be any different. Have a good day guys. :)
I agree with this 100% if you look at history in the last 100 years, we have done more damage to this planet in the last 100 yrs than the entire history of the planet. I blame the gasoline engine for most of this myself because without it we wouldn't have transportation to make it so easy to get from point a to point b which has allowed us to accomplish so much, the engine also allows us to work crops much easier to mow down forrests much easier. basically our progress is our own demise I think. I seriously don't think life as we know it will be around in 100 yrs.

[Marcus]

That's why we need to inhabit another planet and use it's resources...spread like a plague all over the galaxy.

Mandated birth control. 1 child per couple. Require licenses to have a child. Forced early term abortions. How does that sit with you religious folk?? :D

[mcjaret]

Julius Ceasar wrote that he did not expect humanity to last more than a hundred years because wars were so widespread, and the technology so advanced.

He was wrong as are those who claim we're going to destroy the world now. We've survived ice ages far worse than anything triggered by a nuclear exchange before with a lot less knowledge about how to help ourselves through them. Losing a major portion of the population is possible, but more likely through famine, disease and drought. Wars in those areas may finish off most of those affected locally but not likely to take everyone everywhere with them.

From the sounds of things, some of you must be stockpiling food and ammo. LOL.

[jadairiii]

We may not install them, although often we do, but we sure as hell support them.

How about Pinochet in Chile? The CIA took an active part in overthrowing Allende and installing that thug.

In Iran, we took an active part in overthrowing Mossadegh (sp) and installing the Shaw.

We keep sending aid to repressive governments in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and other nations.

Your kidding yourself if you think our hands are clean.

Edit- I hope you already know about Chile. Here is the wikipedia version of Iran.

This may mean I have been posting too long but based on what I have read and studied Bill is actually understating how our government (and the pre-breakup USSR) has manipulated the governments of the world.

Look to any third world country in recent history and we or USSR/Russia have either been directly involved in putting that government into power or keeping in power through support without any long term vision, just what is best for “us” at the present time. You can also see what happens when the super powers loose interest in a area or continent, current Africa, SE Asia in the 70’s. The list goes on.

Here are a couple of more names to add to the list of regimes or leaders that the US directly or indirectly supported at one time:

Pol Pot
Manuel Noriega
Saddam Hussein
Francois Duvalier
Jean Claude Duvalier
Jonas Savimbi (not really a leader but close to it)
Fulgencio Batista

I got tired of righting names of repressive leaders but I think you get my point, the list is much much longer and this is not some conspiracy theory list, all this is openly known. You will also notice that some of the names the US spent money deposing after they went a bit “south” on us. Scary eh?

John

[Im1chunkymunky]

1) Civil wars in other countries? I don't give a rats ass about any country other than this one and the mother country.

2) See answer to 1).

3) If we didn't stick our noses into other people's business, there'd probably be alot less terrorism aimed our way.

Indonesia is the most populous Muslim country on Earth. W has done a fine job of pissing the bulk of them off, so their protesting his visit is quite warranted, whether or not we gave them money. We gave the Iraqis and by proxy Osama lots of weapons and money over the years, and look what that got us.

"they would probably still be in too much chaos to even think twice about a protest." The tsunamis didn't wipe out Indonesia. It took out some small coastal towns and set a couple of provinces back a bit. The whole country was not in chaos over the matter, even Jakarta wasn't overtly affected or chaotic due to the tsunami.

News flash, by putting someone's sources into question, you are indirectly(though some might say directly) calling his sources wrong/made up.

#1) Just what we need, wars spreading world wide and warfare on our own turf, instead of theirs, because we didnt try to stop it when we had the chance. I care about our country too, i prefer to have our troops over there, than have anyone else over here.

#3) So you think that we deserved to have planes crashed into the world trade centers, peantagon, and if all went to their plan, possibly into the white house or capital, and to have killed thousands of civilians?

"News flash" nothing i said put his source nor information into question. i stated a fact that wikipedia is a user databased site by the public, and one should just double check the info pulled from it. in no way did i poke at his info.

if i thought that he was wrong i would have cited different info to prove it, b/c what good does saying "you're wrong" do? i had no contest to his citation.

[AshAsh]

#1, 2 and 3 what is war in iraq has to do with this? WOMD was the reason to go there, did not exist !!! only fact

[Im1chunkymunky]

#1, 2 and 3 what is war in iraq has to do with this? WOMD was the reason to go there, did not exist !!! only fact

we branched off from iraq in specific. that is true though. but according to the intelligence at the time, it appeared that the womd did exist

[Queer for Spear]

Chunky, you make me proud to be a fellow American, your a fine young man, your intentions are pure and your writings are very articulate but you really need to be more informed on BOTH sides of these matters, your fine intelligence will figure things out quickly if you give it a chance and allow yourself to unemotionally, rationalize and investigate both sides of an argument

As far as "planes crashing into buildings" go, you need to google up some of those websites to determine for yourself if the US Govt was not somehow complicit in that heinous act of terrorism. There is very compelling evidence on both sides of the argument. Iam not making any accusations here either, I ALWAYS listen to both sides of any argument before I make a determination in my own mind. A habit you pick up when you become an ol fart.

Iam not trying to pick a fight, far from it, I want you and other fine people like you to be more informed. This is YOUR country and these elected officials work for YOU. Hold them accountable as you would any employee you've entrusted with something so dear to you and all of us.
SF

[Im1chunkymunky]

Chunky, you make me proud to be a fellow American, your a fine young man, your intentions are pure and your writings are very articulate but you really need to be more informed on BOTH sides of these matters, your fine intelligence will figure things out quickly if you give it a chance and allow yourself to unemotionally, rationalize and investigate both sides of an argument

As far as "planes crashing into buildings" go, you need to google up some of those websites to determine for yourself if the US Govt was not somehow complicit in that heinous act of terrorism. There is very compelling evidence on both sides of the argument. Iam not making any accusations here either, I ALWAYS listen to both sides of any argument before I make a determination in my own mind. A habit you pick up when you become an ol fart.

Iam not trying to pick a fight, far from it, I want you and other fine people like you to be more informed. This is YOUR country and these elected officials work for YOU. Hold them accountable as you would any employee you've entrusted with something so dear to you and all of us.
SF


thanks...about the planes thing, i meant that nobody 'deserves' terrorism, so if a nation has problem with another we have rules of war for a reason. i was trying to get at that.

haha i do get easily tempered over things...maybe i need to go back to diving more often :thumps:

[Bill McIntyre]

we branched off from iraq in specific. that is true though. but according to the intelligence at the time, it appeared that the womd did exist

I'm not so sure about that intelligence "at the time."

Bush's first Treasury Secretary, Paul O'Neil, has written in his book that from the first cabinet meeting of the new administration, long before 9/11, they were talking about how they could justify hitting Iraq.

Then other insiders (and I'll admit that I can't recall names) have said that every time the CIA delivered intelligence that showed that Iraq did not have WMDs and posed no threat, they were told to go back and look harder.

Finally, they rolled over and gave the administration what it was asking for.

After all, they work for the executive branch, and depend on appropriations by Congress to operate. Professionalism and ethics only go so far.

[AshAsh]

Chunky,
Belive me when I say, Billions of Moslims and middle eastern think your way "nobody 'deserves' terrorism"
I lived there and those people are very simple people only want basic needs of life : food, house,TV, cell phone, raise a family, education, maybe a car and sex ; )
Even the animies that we made now, could have been our best friends if we talked to them and tryed to work out solutions to their social and economical problems. I grew up in a lebral modern middle eastern country, so maybe I am more optimistic, but I know if you "love your enimies" they will love you back. These are naturally loving people, not naturally born killers as it seems.

[mnguy]

#1) Just what we need, wars spreading world wide and warfare on our own turf, instead of theirs, because we didnt try to stop it when we had the chance. I care about our country too, i prefer to have our troops over there, than have anyone else over here.

#3) So you think that we deserved to have planes crashed into the world trade centers, peantagon, and if all went to their plan, possibly into the white house or capital, and to have killed thousands of civilians?

"News flash" nothing i said put his source nor information into question. i stated a fact that wikipedia is a user databased site by the public, and one should just double check the info pulled from it. in no way did i poke at his info.

if i thought that he was wrong i would have cited different info to prove it, b/c what good does saying "you're wrong" do? i had no contest to his citation.

Lets put it this way, guys who go around poking their noses into wasps nests are gonna get stung. The prudent man, instead of wandering looking for a nest to bother, watches his own home and yard and makes sure he's ready to take down any nest that shows up in his domain with deadly and efficient action (raid, or WD40 with the little red needle lit on fire at the far end[which is the most efficient method, personal experience :D ]).

In simpler terms, we'd be better served taking care of things at home and remaining prepared in case shit happens versus hippity hopping around taking care of other people's problems first. Of course this doesn't hold as true if there is a solid alliance with the country in question, but that isn't the case right now.

I don't think anyone deserved a plane into a building, but obviously some people did or else we wouldn't be having that issue. If we didn't go around trying to manipulate things in other people's homes, I sincerely doubt that they would be anywhere near as disenfranchised with us as they are.

A civil war in one country doesn't necessarily equate to war spreading all over the world. Theres been civil wars all throughout the 20th century and even spilling into this century, take a few of the African nations as an example. We obviously don't care enough about them to send troops over there to calm things down, but that's because they have nothing we want. DeBeers already has all the diamonds and we can't control that, and we've tried; There's not much oil to be had once you've gone sub-Saharan and they don't manufacture anything that we really want/need.

I like your love of country and youthful idealism, but like QfS said, it might be germane to look at both sides of an argument. Passion tends to overrule logic, and its an easy pit to fall into on a topic like this. Diving more is definately a cure, though at the moment air temp around my house at night is about 34 degrees and water temp is 62.8 at the nearest CDIP wave buoy, with pretty strong winds throughout the day :(

As far as the info thing goes, lets say you shoot a nice fish and you say it is 36" long. Now what if I post in your report thread saying your ruler could be a little warped in places, and nothing else. It is a complete red herring, and I've now indirectly called you a flat out liar at worst and ignorant of the condition of your tools at best, depending on how you take it. Honestly I couldn't care less, but Bill obviously thought that you were taking a dig at him and you didn't think you were, so I thought it germane to explain why he might have felt the need to defend himself.

[Bill McIntyre]

Hey guys, no sweat. I understand that he was just pointing out that wikipedia was not the most authoritative source in the world, and I think he understands that the information quoted was substantially correct.

Kisses and hugs all around (but send photos first).

[mnguy]

Kisses and hugs all around (but send photos first).

Lol, the only photo I wanna see is the one that is miraculously still there from that certain post on a certain thread ;) :thumps:

[Im1chunkymunky]

my point on the civil wars was that there is really nothing stopping them from spreading, and at what point do we deem necessary to intervene, if not from the beginning, but before it reaches us. i know a civil war is not likely to spread world wide, but neither were multiple planes crashing into a building (which if i'm not mistaken, after we looked back at the intelligence we had, they found out that we possibly could have stopped it).

it can be said that we may be over ambitious/eager to help other countries, sometimes to be nice, and sometimes it is done with selfish intentions (oil, etc.). so sometimes we are the nice guy who always gets shut down, b/c the chick goes after the punk who would tell her anything it takes to get laid, and when he doesn't get it, throws her to the curb. then there is the friend who knows she is getting worked over but doesnt say anything so no one gets offended and pissed off....whoever you are, you lose. :cussing: haha, after all that, maybe the kid who just plays chess with himself in the corner is the real winner. :thumps: (f*** i cant wait to get out of high school)

...Now what if I post in your report thread saying your ruler could be a little warped in places, and nothing else.
i think i know what you meant, but "could be a little warped" is a likelihood, what i said is actual fact. a warped ruler would indubitably, no matter what produce false data, wikipedia is definitely not so.

i understand that it could have been mistaken that i was doubting his info, that is why i defended it by quoting what i had said, and not by trying to change my story... enough about this though :beer:


i wanna see photos!

[Marcus]

Chunky,

We have never helped another nation "to be nice", it has always been in our own interests.

[Im1chunkymunky]

j/w: what do indonesia or thailand have that we want? (i think it was thailand with the other tsunami?)

[bikewrench]

j/w: what do indonesia or thailand have that we want?

Consumers.

[Im1chunkymunky]

consumers of what?

[AshAsh]

Movies

[bikewrench]

You know, our stuff.

[Im1chunkymunky]

one would think that the US has more consumers of just about anything (that we could offer to them atleast) than indonesia would? i am not sure that those asian countries such as india, indonesia, maldives, sri lanka, & thailand etc. could purchase enough "stuff" from us to justify pledging over $600 millon at one time to aid in their recovery from renatural disasters just to keep the loyalty of their purses. this is just one example of US financial aid directed world wide. http://www.usaid.gov/ is the United States Agency for International Development.

i guaratee there is more depth to our nation's financial charity than selfish desires.

there's no doubt at times we do things for our own gain, but to say that we are driven by that soley, is quite far fetched.

[Bill McIntyre]

i guaratee there is more depth to our nation's financial charity than selfish desires.

there's no doubt at times we do things for our own gain, but to say that we are driven by that soley, is quite far fetched.

I think its not too far-fetched to say that even international image is a desirable thing gained by "charity," and we make a calculated decision to invest in it for our own selfish interests.

After all, when we ride rough-shod over much of the world in our more narrowly-defined financial self interest, a bit of charity is a relatively cheap way to try to buy cooperation and good will from the international community.

[AshAsh]

I think we also have a very short memory about the tsunami !!
From what I remeber UN officials said few weeks after the disaster that US efforts were slow and "stingy" compared to other countries.
Germany $500 mils
Japan $ 650 mils
USA promising $350 mils

[Bill McIntyre]

We've kicked this around before, but US foreign aid is a much smaller percentage of national income (GDP) than that of other developed countries.

You can find articles that put it in all sorts of way. For instance, some make the case that since we spend so much on defense, that should count as foreign aid since it makes the word safer. There are probably people in the Middle East who would not buy that right now. But anyway, here is one article for your consideration.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Foreign_Policy/Most_Generous_Misers.html

[Im1chunkymunky]

I think its not too far-fetched to say that even international image is a desirable thing gained by "charity," and we make a calculated decision to invest in it for our own selfish interests.

After all, when we ride rough-shod over much of the world in our more narrowly-defined financial self interest, a bit of charity is a relatively cheap way to try to buy cooperation and good will from the international community.

i was actually focusing on material gains. but that is very true. i still dont think we can say that every charitable act we do is for those reasons though many are.

[Im1chunkymunky]

I think we also have a very short memory about the tsunami !!
From what I remeber UN officials said few weeks after the disaster that US efforts were slow and "stingy" compared to other countries.
Germany $500 mils
Japan $ 650 mils
USA promising $350 mils

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4252171.stm

$350 approved at first, and a portion of the money proposed in the additional plan was given

[mnguy]

I was going to post on the Indo/Thailand thing last night but I got bit by the sleepy bug and forgot all about it.

You have to also remember that Asia is, more often than not, where our companies send our jobs when they outsource. We've come to depend on Asian goods and services more than we'd like and so we've got a vested interest in stability in the region and goodwill towards us. Thats where the charity comes in, even though its a piddling amount as others have pointed out.

Disclaimer: I realize that this next piece may be somewhat incoherent. Please pardon the mess of a brain shart that follows. Blame Sam Adams and Jose Cuervo :beer:

On top of that, I have my own little theory as to why we want to keep ourselves on the up and up with Indonesia. We already have our potential shitstorm in Asia in North Korea. Adding a another volitile agent in the form of another potential hotbed of Muslim extremist terrorists in the same sphere of influence is the last thing we need. They are not too fond of us already because the country is something like 88% muslim as of the last count, and they view our actions in the middle east as picking on their brothers. Any small thing that we can do to get them to like us a little more is something that we might as well do, so giving out a token sum of aid would definately be on the list of things to do. Having one wolf stalking you is bad enough, but give that wolf(DPRK) some backup and it may take the next step from stalking to attacking.

[Im1chunkymunky]

mnguy- thats true, and on the same note, our outsourcing is helping their economy probably dramatically. so that should also be considered. not that we outsource necessarily to help them, but as a result of our economic benefit from it they also benefit. so we do aid their recovery to keep our outsourced productions running, and get some goodwill.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

Not counted in those figures are private charitable contributions and the cost of our military personel, ships and helicopters who were there almost immediatly' America is made of Americans and we are the most caring charitable country in the world..

[Im1chunkymunky]

Not counted in those figures are private charitable contributions and the cost of our military personel, ships and helicopters who were there almost immediatly' America is made of Americans and we are the most caring charitable country in the world..

yea, the cost of sending troops, and equipment there isnt cheap, good point.

although i agree that our country isnt all bad, and i believe that our charitable deeds are not all for selfish gains, and that out of them all, we probably do have the biggest concern for the world's best interest; sometimes we make 'not so good' decisons. but since when is ANYONE perfect? i think we make the biggest effort out of everyone to keep the world a safer place. despite some busybody business, i dont think that we do it out of boredom.