Florida will encourage goliath grouper scientific harvest

[Denny]

Here we go....
Our state says it is time to move forward on a scientific harvest of Goliath, using the information to formulate a sustainable harvest of the fish.

The feds have said the same thing. Now the feds will see a written position from Florida.
Let's be respectful with our comments and contain our excitement....
But it is HAPPENING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[westpalmspearo]

awesome what does this mean

[Denny]

We will be making a video presentation at the FWC meeting next week.
It will be a real eye opener for some and a confirmation for others.

Through your support of the FRA, you all have made this happen. You guys deserve this.

[Denny]

awesome what does this mean

It means that FINALLY there will be some official acknowledgement that the body of information on this fish is poor and the harvest of them needs to proceed.

My guess is that within two years we will see an experimental lottery system for the recreational sector. The scientific harvest could begin as soon as next spring.

[StabbinBoy]

None too soon either. Those chubby monsters have overtaken every decent structure in Palm Beach. I don't even want to know how many pounds of fish/day an adult goliath eats.

[polespear]

None to soon IMO. these things eat everything.
We might even be able to find a few bugs, After a few years.
Is the video something we can do as well, or Does it have alot of rules & regs. that go along w/ it. These guy's are just about on very dive sight.
Would be nice to harvest a few Hundred out of the mix of things.

[Im1chunkymunky]

lets go NOW!!!! whos w/ me?? but seriously, keep us posted on the updates!!! thatwould be fantastic!

[bertram25]

Stabbinboy,

Denny and the West Coast guys may have an argument for a harvest in the Gulf but there is no way the small number of jewfish off of the Palm Beaches can be considered a "recovered" stock. So you see jewfish on the wreck structure, great. But how many fish is that between the Breakers and Jupiter Inlet? Not very many. You're confusing size with numbers. 200 small grunts on a wreck and you don't even notice. 10 jewfish on a wreck and "they're taking over; they're everywhere". but it's still JUST TEN FISH! I dive these reefs and wrecks, too; did it here commercially for 30 years and I can tell you that it'll be a long time yet before any kind of harvest can happen in the Palm Beaches. If you don't like seeing jewfish then don't dive the wrecks; dive the ledges where they're pretty spread out. The spearfishing's better there anyway. BTW, in case you haven't heard, jewfish almost NEVER eat a grouper or snapper UNLESS it's already hooked, shot etc. Hundreds of stomach contents work ups proves this. Now if you're worried about the porcupine fish population........

BIll

[LwrKzUndrH2OHunter]

Could this mean a harvest in the Keys as well?

[bfsc]

I am not sure I agree with you Bertram25. First of all what is considered a "recovered" stock? Between Breakers and Jupiter inlet I would guess that there are probably thousands. And there are plenty of jewfish on the reefs also, but like you said they are more spreadout. Just because they are more spreadout does it mean they are not there?

[bertram25]

bfsc,

I've been told that you're another commercial diver like me but your guess that "there are thousands" is absurd. I'd guess at most, a few hundred, and that's being liberal. Unless you're wearing a special mask with the lenses of a dragon fly that makes you see hundreds of jewfish for each one you really see there is no way you've seen enough fish to justify that statement. No one with experience out here and a lick of sense would back you up on that statement. It's too bad because your credibility just went into the trash can. It reminds me of the beginning of the TEDs hearings when an old shrimper got up at a meeting and stated "I've never seen a turtle swimming in the ocean". Open the trash can, insert the old timer's testimony and go on. You need to go back and look at your GPS numbers where you've seen jewfish and cross reference them with the total area we're talking about here. You'll find that your estimate is crazy. Yes, I've gone off on you a bit, here. I've spent my life on these reefs and it really irks me when someone who's supposed to know this area makes such a wild statement. Please give it a re-think.

Bill

[fizisition]

[QUOTE=bfsc. Just because they are more spreadout does it mean they are not there?[/QUOTE]


I agree, I don't know why more people wont recognize that, they only think jewfish live on wrecks. They dont count the hundreds of square miles inbetween.

For instance, If there are 200 wrecks with 10 jewfish thats 2000 jewfish total. If there are 20,000 rockpiles,ledges, etc. and if there is a jewfish on 1 out of 10 spots thats 2000 more jewfish. Can anyone who dives the ec say that they dont see a jewfish on 1 out of 10 spots. Can anyone from the wc say they dont see a jewfish on 1 out of 5 spots. Can anyone say if there are 4000 jewfish in an area, will removing 1000 of them hurt? Supposedly, according to MFRSS, we do 3 times that to the grouper stocks every year. :rolleyes:

So many argue that the jewfish stomach contents are crabs etc. and that they only eat hooked fish, that they do not hunt them. Well if thats the case then jewfish still suck, because then they are eating up all the groupers food. Red grouper eat mostly crabs, etc. I saw a gag with a blue crab lodged in its mouth sideways swimming down a ledge. All grouper eat crabs, when the bait is gone the grouper have to live on crabs. If you guys dont consider predation of the smaller groupers by the jewfish than will you consider competition for the groupers food source to be a cause of decline? Are the jewfish eating up all the groupers food? If thats the case than the more grouper we take the healthier the rest of the stock will be, right. I just hope they will consider the indirect impact jewfish have on other species rather than their population.

[bfsc]

Bertram25,

I am still sticking with my original statements. How many do you think there are? Maybe I will do some cross referencing and get a rough estimate of the number that I have SEEN. Not counting the hundreds of spots that are out of my depth range or that I haven't been to or found.

[Im1chunkymunky]

this is kinda irrelevant, but i'll admit that and share. i had a jewfish come close to eating a well over legal cobia, they can do some damage

[Dive4Blood]

BTW, in case you haven't heard, jewfish almost NEVER eat a grouper or snapper UNLESS it's already hooked, shot etc. Hundreds of stomach contents work ups proves this. Now if you're worried about the porcupine fish population........

Now you have thrown your credibilty in the garbage can with an absurd statement. The vast majority of research indicating that the main diet of jewfish consists of crustaceans, porcupine fish etc comes from stomach content samples of juveniles captured live in fairly shallow water off the SW Florida coast. Again, "best available science" does not indicate anything near reality. Simple logic dictates that the proverbial dozen jewfish on every wreck representing two tons plus of biomass cannot sustain themselves and thrive eating 12 inch porcupine fish and blue crabs. I have spoken with a researcher at the FMRI who corroborated this along with their doubts that they DON'T consume reef gamefish in quantity. I'm calling bullshit on your assertion. This jewfish diet myth is one of the central tenets that the folks who who rather keep the jewfish as the "cuddly calf" in the "marine petting zoo" fisheries management paradigm always bring up to combat spearfisherman reporting accurately that they have overpopulated the benthic ecosystem of the GOM.

[Powerhead]

I think a lottery system would be a great Idea for all involved parties.

Press on with it Denny.


Now, the "Big Question." Will spearguns be on the allowable gear to harvest them?

Ah, I guess it wouldn't be to hard to get one either way. If I pay the cash and get a chance then it'll be a "Wassa Sandwich Party" for all my friends!

[Petra]

200 small grunts on a wreck and you don't even notice. 10 jewfish on a wreck and "they're taking over; they're everywhere". but it's still JUST TEN FISH!

Ten BIG fish that eat more than 200 grunts ever could, eh? :scratch: Sounds like apples and oranges, to me.

Denny ~ you need any help with the presentation, etc.? Also, what's involved in a "scientific harvest"?

[Ed Walker]

Im not a scientist but Ive spent enough time on and under the water to know that Goliaths eat fish. Maybe gags and mangos arent thier primary diet but I would guess it highly unlikely that any fish that will eat a porcupine fish wont eat a snapper. I doubt there is much of anything they never eat.

I cant speak for you guys on the East coast but promise you there are thousands of GG's here in the Tampa Bay area. I catch them in the crab trap off my dock in the backyard all the time and its only 3 to 4 feet deep there. Most are from .5 to 5 pounds. The explosion of goliaths under 20 pounds on the inshore waters here in the past few years has been remarkable. Out on the ledges and reefs, you better be willing to fight for your fish. GG vs sportdiver wrestling matches take place daily.
I suppose if a scientific harvest is done, we will get some great new data on GG diet, and everything else. Should be very interesting. Kudos to the state and feds for considering allowing some access to our abundant fishery.
Im sure the rod and reel Gulf coasters would be happy to ship over all the live GG's you East coast folks would like. :thumps:

[jfjf]

Stabbinboy,

Denny and the West Coast guys may have an argument for a harvest in the Gulf but there is no way the small number of jewfish off of the Palm Beaches can be considered a "recovered" stock. .... I dive these reefs and wrecks, too; did it here commercially for 30 years and I can tell you that it'll be a long time yet before any kind of harvest can happen in the Palm Beaches.

BIll

I think that with the explosion of jewfish on the east coast that some type of very limited, possibly seasonal harvest with appropriate slot lengths is feasible within a "short" time. I'm not sure how many GG are between the Breakers and the Jupiter inlet, but I'm pretty certain there are many more GG than gag grouper.

We can still shoot red grouper in Palm Beach also, but they are nearly extinct within recreational depths and the few that I see, appear to have been associated with upwelling events. As soon as the friendly red grouper get pushed inshore, they are eliminated. It seems illogical to allow the pre-spawning aggregations of gags to be hammered each Winter, the red grouper can continue to be taken when they are nearly as rare as Nassau Grouper and at the same time continue to be give the largest grouper a free pass for the foreseeable future.

Maybe the scientists know all this already and the apparent discrepancy between abundance and local fishing regulations is more closely tied to politics rather than science?

[fizisition]

I have been trying to dispell these peoples misguided view on jewfish here. I could use some backup here guys. A guy put up a thread about how cool it is to watch a jewfish eat a 20 lb sting ray and now it has sparked a debate. Lets let everyone there know that jewfish are overpopulated and are hurting the balance of the fishery.

http://www.thehulltruth.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=125460&start=1

[Poke It]

Maybe some pics (I've seen) of what these fish can do to divers will help.

Dear goliath grouper,
It's not a bounty, but you fish stealin, gong sounding, diver biting (please pics!!), dive ending a-holes need to realize if the lottery goes through a lot of tough
ass mo fo's will be feeding the neighborhood with your nutricious fair. If you threaten them they will eat you. As it should be.

Poke it, out.

[bfsc]

We can still shoot red grouper in Palm Beach also, but they are nearly extinct within recreational depths and the few that I see, appear to have been associated with upwelling events. As soon as the friendly red grouper get pushed inshore, they are eliminated. It seems illogical to allow the pre-spawning aggregations of gags to be hammered each Winter, the red grouper can continue to be taken when they are nearly as rare as Nassau Grouper and at the same time continue to be give the largest grouper a free pass for the foreseeable future.

I was thinking this exact thing but didn't want "the man" to agree and therefore restrict other grouper species that are less populated then Jewfish which is a protected species. Which is why I didn't say anything. I don't know if that makes any sense though :confused:

[bfsc]

It is hard to tell what it is, but here is a picture of my brothers dive console that a Jewfish sucked up and then swam full speed back into the wreck. Dragging my brother along with him.

[fizisition]

I was thinking this exact thing but didn't want "the man" to agree and therefore restrict other grouper species that are less populated then Jewfish which is a protected species. Which is why I didn't say anything. I don't know if that makes any sense though :confused:

Makes perfect sense. Sometimes I wonder if SB does more damage than good.(don't blast me guys for saying what alot of you are thinking). I know that without SB there probably wouldn't be the FRA etc. etc. Just trying to say there are pros and cons to posting our knowledge.

[Megabeast]

Just wanted to throw out another tidbit to all the guys talking about the #'s of fish out there between point A and point B. Don't forget to put out some sort of estimated figure on all the GGs and Gags/Blacks/Reds/Warsaws/Nassau/etc. that live in undiveable depths (unless your from Team Headhunter). It might be one story in 80 fsw, but when you go dive 325 fsw, I bet it's a whole 'nother ball game down there. It'd be interesting to have those figures (like how many gags are in the deep water all year except when the water gets cold and they come inshore).

[westpalmspearo]

Bertram25, the picture you posted came from a video made in boynton on the CASTOR wreck have you seen this video its a perfect example of jewfish taking over theres 70 or more on that wreck and hardly any other fish

[bfsc]

I've seen the castor when it is loaded. It is pretty amazing to be surrounded by that many fish that are that big. I agree Megabeast they are not only in spots that are to deep to dive, but also to shallow up in the intracoastal.

[JAW]

I don't really want to get involved in this debate, but regarding stomach contents of Jewfish harvested legally while freediving in other countries, I can only speak of what I have pulled out of their stomachs including all kinds of fish along with crabs and other things including snapper, grunts, sheepshead and even a large amberjack.

Personally I have fears that a lottery could ruin the image of spearfishing and is a dangerous battle with the fish huggers and wreck cattle boats on the east coast. There is no real good way to say this, but I don't want to see the vast majority of divers out there throwing freshafts at jewfish when they can't even land a 20lb gag

That being said, I would love to participate in any sanctioned scientific harvesting ect. All my favorite freediving spots in canaveral are completely overrun and they are starting to slurp down the big mangos while I'm on the way up.

Jason

[JLittle44]

For instance, If there are 200 wrecks with 10 jewfish thats 2000 jewfish total. If there are 20,000 rockpiles,ledges, etc. and if there is a jewfish on 1 out of 10 spots thats 2000 more jewfish. Can anyone who dives the ec say that they dont see a jewfish on 1 out of 10 spots. Can anyone from the wc say they dont see a jewfish on 1 out of 5 spots. Can anyone say if there are 4000 jewfish in an area, will removing 1000 of them hurt? Supposedly, according to MFRSS, we do 3 times that to the grouper stocks every year. :rolleyes:


This sounds very logical to me. And also understated.

[RichT]

I don't really want to get involved in this debate, but regarding stomach contents of Jewfish harvested legally while freediving in other countries, I can only speak of what I have pulled out of their stomachs including all kinds of fish along with crabs and other things including snapper, grunts, sheepshead and even a large amberjack.

Personally I have fears that a lottery could ruin the image of spearfishing and is a dangerous battle with the fish huggers and wreck cattle boats on the east coast. There is no real good way to say this, but I don't want to see the vast majority of divers out there throwing freshafts at jewfish when they can't even land a 20lb gag

That being said, I would love to participate in any sanctioned scientific harvesting ect. All my favorite freediving spots in canaveral are completely overrun and they are starting to slurp down the big mangos while I'm on the way up.

Jason


Jason,
You have very legitimate concerns.
Those concerns are shared by many very knowledgeable spearfisherman.
They will certainly have to be addressed as will many other questions.

My personal feelings are that the herd needs to be thinned.
My personal feelings are that spearfisherman should take the lead on data collection during a scientific harvest that determines whether the population can be sustainable while allowing a limited harvest.
My personal feelings are that spearfishing may not necessarily be the best way of harvesting if/when a public harvest begins due to safety and the reasons you and others have pointed out on this and other threads.

Its definitely going to be a hot topic worthy of detailed discussion among many stakeholder groups, environmentalists, scientists and managers.

[jfjf]

Jason,My personal feelings are that spearfishing may not necessarily be the best way of harvesting if/when a public harvest begins due to safety and .

Taking your comment somewhat out of context... would lead me to believe that maybe we should regulate spearfishing to only safe depths, in safe places and definitely disallow the spearing of dangerous species like amberjack and cobia for example. Maybe the govt. should require PADI divemasters to be present when spearfishing is done... you know just for safety....

[JAW]

come on jfjf, why do you have to go there.

[RichT]

Taking your comment somewhat out of context... would lead me to believe that maybe we should regulate spearfishing to only safe depths, in safe places and definitely disallow the spearing of dangerous species like amberjack and cobia for example. Maybe the govt. should require PADI divemasters to be present when spearfishing is done... you know just for safety....

Thanks for indulging me. :D
I dont think I need to remind anyone of the young man who recently died in the keys after shooting a jewfish?

My personal feelings are that IF we allow an uncontrolled hunt with untrained hunters who may have little to no experience with really "big game", the result may be serious injury and even death.
Ive seen, read about, and witnessed people nearly killed by amberjack and cobia. Does anybody honestly think these 30-80 pound fish hold a candle to a 2-4 HUNDRED pound grouper??

[Ironhed]

I would say with the right gun and decent shot placement (which shouldnt be too hard to do) you should be able to stone a goliath pretty easy. I would say if you had any doubts about your shooting that you had better us a ph as a safer way of harvesting the beast.

[RichT]

I would say with the right gun and decent shot placement (which shouldnt be too hard to do) you should be able to stone a goliath pretty easy. I would say if you had any doubts about your shooting that you had better us a ph as a safer way of harvesting the beast.


Freeshaft?? Yes, possibly, but probably a lower percentage than most would like to believe.
Powerheads? PH's dont always kill instantly or even quickly in some instances as anyone who has used them commercially will attest to. In addition... there is VERY strong sentiment against the use of powerheads even though that gives you the highest chance of actually landing a large fish.

BTW... I'm just trying to play devils advocate with many of my responses as these are the questions that will be asked that need to be answered. :)

[JLittle44]

Rich, I can certainly see your point, but it is applicable to so many other things as to be a bit watered down. There is nothing to stop a newbie from ramping a dirt bike, speeding down a wet and winding road, or making his second ever hangliding flight into an approaching thunderstorm.

At a certain point, I believe that you just have to accept that people will not always be trained, experienced, or even intelligent. It's a risk we take on the freeways every day and I do not see how it is any different with spearfishing.

[junior]

Yup, in 160' of water a 100 pound AJ in mid-water can get you in trouble just as quick if not quicker than a 400 pound bottom fish in 50' of water. If it's legal for some, it should be legal for all. Most people would not try to shoot one. Don't you think?

[RichT]

Rich, I can certainly see your point, but it is applicable to so many other things as to be a bit watered down. There is nothing to stop a newbie from ramping a dirt bike, speeding down a wet and winding road, or making his second ever hangliding flight into an approaching thunderstorm.

At a certain point, I believe that you just have to accept that people will not always be trained, experienced, or even intelligent. It's a risk we take on the freeways every day and I do not see how it is any different with spearfishing.

Roger that.
Unfortunately... all those things you mentioned are not the sport of spearfishing.
Spearfishing... as you may or may not know suffers from an image problem already.
Let me try to put it another way.
How "good" would our sport look if there were suddenly pictures on the internet, in dive magazines, and newspapers of jewfish swimming around with shafts sticking out of their heads?
How "good" would our sport look with pictures of fish dying on lacal wrecks with festering wounds from powerheads?

Again... just food for thought my friends ;)

[jfjf]

come on jfjf, why do you have to go there.

I made that comment because I think that we want very much to avoid having the governement getting involved in "the safety of spearfishing". None of us have any doubt that shooting jewfish with a line gun is dangerous. However, I don't think that as spearfisherman we should be so willing to give hook and line fisherman precedence over spearfisherman for this or any other species.

If the pictures I see of young boys (whose faces are smeared with fresh blood) eating deer hearts are not too much for the public then I would hope that a few pictures of wounded fish won't set us too far back.

[bfsc]

Roger that.
Unfortunately... all those things you mentioned are not the sport of spearfishing.
Spearfishing... as you may or may not know suffers from an image problem already.
Let me try to put it another way.
How "good" would our sport look if there were suddenly pictures on the internet, in dive magazines, and newspapers of jewfish swimming around with shafts sticking out of their heads?
How "good" would our sport look with pictures of fish dying on lacal wrecks with festering wounds from powerheads?

Again... just food for thought my friends

So a few bad apples are going to ruin it for all of us? Maybe we should just quit spearfishing, because we don't want to risk making our sport look bad? (I know I am putting words in your mouth, sorry) How about we take pictures of all the fish with fishing lures hanging out of there mouths, or the ones where the hooks work its way through the fish and end up hanging out the side of it, or the dead grunts floating on the surface down current of someone bottom fishing, or ...

One of the only 3 red snappers that I have ever gotten or even seen off Palm Beach was dead when I found it. I just had to grab it cut the fishing line off the wreck and string it up.

Not sure where I was going with this, but oh well

[Summerland Key]

I would have to agree with Rich. The problem is there are many more people out there that would like to see spearfishing either more heavily regulated or outright banned completely than there are those that would like to see the same for hook and line fishing. I see all the monofiliment line on the wrecks, dead gut hooked fish, pelicans with hooks, etc. also. No one really seems to get too upset, especially the media. But let one jewfish show up on a popular torist dive site, especially in the Keys, with a spearshaft trailing out of its side or head and the s**t will hit the fan. Since it is prohibited to use a powerhead on any food fish in Florida waters anyone attempting to take a jewfish in Florida waters (3 miles Atlantic/9 miles Gulf) will have to do so without a powerhead. There will be some wounded jewfish swimming around underwater photographers and other non-spearfishermen type dives. It would be a PR disaster for us, no doubt. Don

[bfsc]

I definately agree with Rich also, but it just seems like a double standard. I guess that is just the way it goes.

[Summerland Key]

It is a double standard for sure. There is wounded game in bowhunting, duck hunting and dove hunting also.

Spearfishing is both the most selective method of harvesting fish, yet it is the most heavily regulated. If you look at all the species that are off limits to spearing (snook, sea trout, tripletail, etc.) and areas that are closed to spearfishing (bridges with catwalks, jetties under a certain length, public beaches, state parks, upper Keys within a mile of US 1, etc.) you have to agree there had to be some political pressure to pass all these rules. My biggest fear, with allowing divers to spear jewfish is the wounded fish issue. That same political pressure that got many of the spearing laws passed in the past will be at it again. This time pushing for a complete spearfishing ban in all Florida waters. Just connect the dots between all the existing closed areas to spearing and it is over with for us. Don

[JAW]

Sadly for us anything having to do with Jewfish is a no win situation in my opinion. There are thousands of scuba divers who come to West Palm, down through the keys and pay $50-$100 bucks a pop to go see these fish. They even changed there damn name. As it is already, in the near future I may not be able to freedive spearfish in Biscayne National Park, the majority of the keys ect.... I don't want to piss off a huge group of divers with lots of $$$$ and create an enourmous negative image for spearfishing. Pictures speak a thousand words, and if we don't see what can happen atleast on the east coast, than we are being ignorant.

I'm not picking on you Ironhed, but look at this comment, it is what every once a year diver/casual spearboard reader with a new mini JBL will think. Most divers don't have the skill or the proper gear setup to take down something the size of a fridge.

I would say with the right gun and decent shot placement (which shouldnt be too hard to do) you should be able to stone a goliath pretty easy. I would say if you had any doubts about your shooting that you had better us a ph as a safer way of harvesting the beast.

As I said before, I have harvested atleast 15 of them freediving outside of the US and up to 300lbs. I have never lost one, and stoned quite a few, no powerheads. But I am using gear set up just for the purpose and don't take a shot that won't work. Their skull is extremelly thick and most guns aren't going to penetrate, just like on a big cubera. (I have had a four band game gun with a 3/8 68" shaft only go in three inches on a large jewfish's head) What works just right is the shot into the shoulder forward into the head. But how many inexperienced divers with buckfever are going to wait for that??


I want everyone to understand I am all for spearfishermen's rights, and fight for both that of scuba divers, freedivers, and commercial. I would also be the first in line to apply for any sort of tag and jewfish is probably my favorite fish to eat. I also agree that something must be done as I have seen how they are taking over the gulf and the atlantic and turning once productive spots into deserts. I just personally feel it is a no win situation, and the PR nightmare that could result would be devastating to our already shaky future if we don't proceed with caution.

Jason

[RichT]

My biggest fear, with allowing divers to spear jewfish is the wounded fish issue. That same political pressure that got many of the spearing laws passed in the past will be at it again. This time pushing for a complete spearfishing ban in all Florida waters. Just connect the dots between all the existing closed areas to spearing and it is over with for us. Don

Don,
We (the spearfishing community) have never been more informed, organized,connected or better represented.
The forces that caused many of the anti-spearfishing laws years ago would not have a snowballs chance in hell of being passed today.IMO

Having said that, I recommend we not let our guard down as those same forces will certainly try again without major vigilance on our part.

[inletsurf]

I would say with the right gun and decent shot placement (which shouldnt be too hard to do) you should be able to stone a goliath pretty easy. I would say if you had any doubts about your shooting that you had better us a ph as a safer way of harvesting the beast.

You ought to talk to some commercial fellas who have harvested these in the past, both with spears and powerheads. You'll be surprised at some of the stories you will hear. One thing is for certain, your confidence with the above statement will certainly change.

[bertram25]

Ok, Guys!

You’ve done a great job of talking conjecture, ignorance and downright BS….good God!

It would be funny if it weren’t so tragic that in 2006 you still don’t have a clue about fish biology. Nothing changes, year after year, decade after decade. People never bother to expend the energy to understand the resource they’re exploiting, preferring instead to just go out, kill fish and then complain from a point of ignorance when real issues come up.


So where to begin, especially with the “teach a pig to sing” syndrome looming large?

I guess I just like swimming against the current. Good thing to know that in the end none of these garbage arguments will hold up so it really doesn’t matter what you come up with. There is hope, however…some really good posts were mixed in here as well. For some of you, though when it comes down to fishery management you won’t get to first base. Good thing you’ve got FRA….you need it.

I guess I’ll take it in order from my last post so here goes:

fizitition: We are fully aware of the “scattered areas” and would never be so naïve as to pretend they didn’t exist. All of my statements take this into account. Also, answer this: If the jewfish are eating all of the food for the groupers, snappers etc. then how come in the early twentieth century there were many times more jewfish and many times more snapper and grouper than there are now? What did they eat? On the note of food, have you ever been on a shrimp boat when the crew sorts the catch? You should see the tons (literally) of crustaceans and fish, juvenile and adult, they bring up with every haul, just to discard it dead over the side. Ever see a skinny jewfish or grouper that wasn’t gut hooked?

bfsc: Please do whatever survey you wish. You’ll never be able to “prove” something that doesn’t exist. As for the deeper water, jewfish are NOT a deep ocean fish so don’t count on some hidden huge stock out there swimming around with the snowies and tilefish.

im1chunkymunky: You’re right, it’s irrelevant. A wounded fish is not unaffected standing stock. As for spear and eat, have at it! It’s a privilege and we’re all lucky to be able to do it.

Dive4blood: WRONG!! There is tons of contents information on larger jewfish in and around Florida and you can talk to FMRI until you’re blue in the face. No worries, though. It’s out there, it’s credible and it does and will blow your “bullshit” comment right over into the “bullshit” column. I’m careful. I don’t make bullshit statements when it comes to fisheries and if you stick around, or check the record, you’ll find out that this is so. My conversations with FMRI past and present clearly demonstrate that there is a lot of data out there that never crosses their desks. Repeatedly we’ve had to arrive at the meetings with the irrefutable evidence in hand, both derailing the State’s assertions and getting things done responsibly. I don’t say this out of disrespect for them but it’s a clear indication that with so many fisheries issues out there they have too much on their plates. They do not have the luxury to zero in on specific fisheries the way we do (or you do if you’d bother).

Powerhead: Good thoughts. If there are no other fish than jewfish it’ll be because of poor management, not because jewfish ate them. Good huntin’ to ya.

Petra: You missed the point. I wasn’t speaking of how much the fish eat, just delving into people’s perception of “lots” of fish, and doing so from a reproductive standpoint. If you kill 10 grunts out of two hundred it’s a smaller percentage of the total local spawning stock than killing one jewfish out of ten. Again, ever see a skinny grouper that isn’t sick or injured? There’s plenty of food for them

Ed Walker: Nice to hear a clear breath of common sense and reason.

jfjf: There is no “explosion” of jewfish on the east coast. Yes, there are more than there were before the moratorium (see .00001 above zero in those days). I do not know how long you’ve dived here but there used to be lots of gags when I started and those veterans like John Jolly who predate me by twenty years tell me that even I don’t have a clue as to how abundant they once were. Your description of what happens here to the reds and the gags is accurate (100%). Gags are still not recovering because they are too valuable. The research data, fecundity vs. dates, behavior, etc. studies all showed that fishing on the big winter spawning aggregations here was insane. The data clearly showed that there should be no harvest (by any group) of these fish at all from the time of their arrival in late December until the spawning was over at the end of March. The arguments and data were absolute BUT……a whole industry – recreational, charter, commercial and spearfishing had grown up around waiting to hit the annual spawning aggregations (I was one of them). Pretty soon every aggregating site was known and everyone waited, watching the weather and the rush was on. Today the fish now average $50-$60 dollars a piece but were always valuable. I’ve seen people shoot at each other over fishing spots. I even saw one diver fire his powerhead through a five gallon bucket at another boat. It’s insane. When good data showed that the long closure was needed the political pressure was too great, so the council and MFC (now the FWC) imposed some stupid end of the season closure and allowed a recreational catch. The big male gags are all caught by then as well as most of the females so the fish stays collapsed. Fishing on grouper aggregations has destroyed stock after stock, Nassau grouper being a prime example in Mexico, Cay Sal and the Dominican Republic.

I offer all this history as justification for my position that the fact that there are now more jewfish than gags in our area does not justify taking jewfish here. It justifies managing the gags better. Two wrongs don’t make a right and again, the modest gains in the East coast jewfish population are just that: modest. It’s no explosion.

fizitition: As to destroying the balance, overpopulation…maybe, but it’s still an unknown and your stating it as a fact is unsupportable. You see a lot of jewfish. You also see a lot of fish harvesters. Which has more effect on screwing up the balance? If you could go back and dive a big wreck in your area 100 year ago what would you see? Would the herds of jewfish be screwing up the balance back then. If so it’s God’s gift that we have all these human consumers out there to “put things in balance”. (raspberry)

Pokeit: Not even worth a comment.

bfsc and fizitition: Brilliant! Yeah, the other groupers are beat to shit but I didn’t want to say anything….might get more restrictions on them. Hell, maybe they’d even make a bit of a recovery. God, we can’t have that, now can we? Please do get up at an FWC meeting and express your true sentiments. You guys are unreal.

Megabeast: Good point, but as I’ve already stated, jewfish is not a deepwater or coldwater species.

westpalmspearo: No shit, Sherlock…the video WAS shot on the Castor because I’m the one who did it. From that point on you’re mistaken. First, there was at most 45-50 fish at peak. The fish did not “take over”. They were only there for a few weeks during the spawning season and fortunately returned again this year. The rest of the year there are at most 10-12, mostly smaller fish, oftentimes less. The other fish that normally live on the wreck (grunts, a few blacks, tropicals, jacks etc. were still there just like they are in the off season. On the nearby Bud Bar Wreck and the Tony (Beck’s) there were very few jewfish and none on the connecting artificial reef but there was no difference in the amount of grouper and other fish. In fact, there were more grouper on the Castor WITH the jewfish. There was plenty of bait around, too. I guess by your argument the Salmon “take over” the rivers when they come back to spawn. Good thing we have all those hydroelectric dams now. Get’s rid of those pesky Salmon so they don’t “Take over”. “Taking over”?…NOT!

JAW: I’d be very interested in your experiences since this is not what stomach contents work here reveals. I’d particularly like to know about habitat, depth etc. and see how it compares to the areas in question here in Florida. Please post more details.

Jlittle44: With regard to fizisition’s numbers, it all sounds great but in the area we’re talking about his numbers of locations, ledges etc. are inflated way beyond reality. There aren’t that many fish here and as long as the population isn’t even close to approaching bigger numbers, they are not recovered and need to be left alone.

Rich Taylor: No argument with your approach.

OK, guys. It’s up to you. Ignore me; attack me, tell me I’m self-righteous… or don’t. I really don’t care. The proof’s in what lies ahead and with that I have no worries.

See ya in the funny papers…….

Bill

[jfjf]

Come on guys! We can take him!

[SpearMax]

Wow! Bertram25 comes out swinging! It reminds me of an old Bruce Lee film when one ninja is surrounded by an overwelming group (of opinion) and kicks the butts of the entire crowd. This debate over the jewfish population in Palm Beach County is a microcosm of the issue concerning the entire state. In the interest of further intelligent debate, let's see some logical (not purely emotional) replies to his rebuttals. As JFJF says, have at him guys! :D

[Dive4Blood]

There is tons of contents information on larger jewfish in and around Florida and you can talk to FMRI until you’re blue in the face. No worries, though. It’s out there, it’s credible

Please provide proof of these adult stomach content studies.

[fizisition]

:
fizitition: We are fully aware of the “scattered areas” and would never be so naïve as to pretend they didn’t exist. All of my statements take this into account.

1. "We are fully...." Who are you refering too? Are speaking on a groups behalf?

Also, answer this: If the jewfish are eating all of the food for the groupers, snappers etc. then how come in the early twentieth century there were many times more jewfish and many times more snapper and grouper than there are now?

2.Because there were less shrimpers, you threw them in the mix not me :D
and because jewfish were also harvested equally as the groupers and snappers, the jewfish weren't protected. Alos because there was 1.2 millon less saltwater fisherman. Also because there was no gps. Also because there weren't 220 boat builders offering 200.00 a month boat payments. I can go on and on why there are less fish than the old days.

What did they eat?

3. all those extra groupers and snappers you spoke of :p

On the note of food, have you ever been on a shrimp boat when the crew sorts the catch? You should see the tons (literally) of crustaceans and fish, juvenile and adult, they bring up with every haul, just to discard it dead over the side.

4. I am proud to say I have never been on a shrimp boat when they sort their catch, or otherwise :thumps:

Ever see a skinny jewfish or grouper that wasn’t gut hooked?

many skinny, sick looking gags, no jews.



Basically the way I see it, no one is 100% right. Thats why we are suggesting an UNBIAS scientic study. Then there will be alot less to argue over. And hopefully it will create a better fishery for everyone. Oh, and one last question.

Bert, Do you, or as stated earlier, "We" benefit financially from the protection of jewfish? or are you simply a concerned citizen?Not trying to implicate , just asking a relevant question. I mean, your insight has no validity if you mouth is for hire.

[bertram25]

Dive4blood: Fair request and I know this sounds like a dodge, but the chief researchers are still sitting on the data which is their's to release, not my decision. I do feel, however that when push comes to shove the data will be provided to the debate. I know it sounds like BS but, like I've said before, it'll all come out during the process and I don't bullshit because it's not in my nature to have to be forced to explain a lie.


fizitition: In response to the quotes in your post......

1. "We" refers to those of us in the know, with the background, scientific or otherwise who all feel exactly the same way about the East Coast jewfish. It is up to each one to tell you who they are if they want to get into this snake pit......some already have.

2. Jewfish were NEVER harvested equally with the much more desirable, more easily handled grouper and snapper. Fishermen didn't need to screw around with jewfish because there were plenty of snapper and grouper (guess the jewfish weren't eating them all in those days...must be an evolutionary change in the twentieth and twenty first centuries). In those days people rarely fished for sport but more for food, not to say they didn't enjoy it.

I liked your point about why there used to be more snapper and grouper than there are now. That explains it. What a revelation! Thank you for suddenly making it so clear! Let's see: more shrimpers, 1.2 million more fishermen, gps, 220 boat builders and cheap boats "and on and on". It's obvious.....the jewfish are the problem!!!

Point three: Sure! That's why the place was pasted with grouper WHEN there were a lot of jewfish. WE (specieswise) are the ones who ate the grouper.

4. Sick looking gags? Was that before or after they were gutted? The only sick ones I ever saw were either gut hooked or shot.

Glad you're proud to have never been on a shrimp boat. I was there doing a documentary film...mostly about jewfish (we each paid our own way to go on that trip; there was no profit).......very interesting trip albeit depressing on the shrimper. More importantly, I learned things. You, on the other hand can be proud that you didn't. I guess "your kid can beat up my honor student". Congrats.

You're absolutlely right that no one is 100% right. Unbiased science is great with one proviso: It has to be informed unbiased. I've seen too many times that an uninformed (though honest) unbiased scientist really gets derailed. The hog snapper study and the NMFS fish trap studies are good examples of this problem.

fizitition: Thank you for your polite query as to my motives. In the past I was tried and convicted on this forum of some great monetary gain without there being any truth to it. Truthfully, there were at most maybe four research days on my boat over all these years, where I was paid my expenses plus a little more but after expenses probably not much more than minimum wage (yes, held a captain's license). I was asked if I wanted to participate because of my interest in and knowledge of the subject but it never amounted to a normal day's pay. Believe me, my efforts from the beginning in the eighties have cost many times anything I ever got back and it was never part of my thinking. I was a fisherman and thoughts of working with the scientists never occurred to me. Further, it's still no motivator now since any working on jewfish research in that capacity is unlikely and strictly a matter of chance. Also, I don't run charters or have any ties to them. I don't think I could deal with boatloads of "pink divers" anyway. No, I'm the worst kind of ....well, whatever you want to call it .....fish advocate, environmentalist, crazy old diver...whatever. I'm the worst kind because I firmly believe in it. A total idealist (guess I'll die broke) The ocean's given me a lifetime of income, pleasure, all the cliche stuff. Along the way I learned a lot of stuff; I just feel like I need to use what I've learned to do a better job of management. God knows there's very few species that have gained since I started. Snook, jewfish and redfish come to mind but little else.

Bill

[JLittle44]

Jlittle44: With regard to fizisition’s numbers, it all sounds great but in the area we’re talking about his numbers of locations, ledges etc. are inflated way beyond reality. There aren’t that many fish here and as long as the population isn’t even close to approaching bigger numbers, they are not recovered and need to be left alone.


I confess ignorance of the area, but fizition's logic is as good or better than anything else I've been presented with. I stand by my statement.

[Denny]

Allright, kids. We have another asset, believe it or not.
Bertram25 has some serious knowledge and experience, and an attitude that seldom downshifts.
Even when he says irritating things, I read between the lines. If you think he can be a pain, try banging heads with five ocean Conservancy lawyers who want to turn the ocean into a private petting zoo reserved for qualified scientists only. His antagonistic approach is great training for the real arena. I'd love for some of you to get in the ring with the real aversaries and see what it feels like - Bertram25 is walk in the Parks (pun intended, Bill).

Parts of spearboard have become official documents for the regulation of our fisheries. So watching what BS we spew here is a bit necessary.

On the goliath thing- I guess it would depend on who is running the scientific study as to whether all methods of harvest are considered for any sort of recreational take.
Part of the study will include gear methods, boat sizes and fish handling requirements.
I would personally be afraid that an idiot in a 20 foot boat would think he could freeshaft a 400# fish and ignorantly cause untold resource damage as well as possibly getting a Darwin award (much like the recent keys fatality).
You all will like what is coming down the pike. The FRA is taking a leadership role in this issue.

[bfsc]

Yo Mama!!

[Denny]

She's dead. What's your point?

[RichT]

Geez Bill, I think of all the accomplishment youve had in your life and I just have to wonder how you did it! :confused:
I shudder to think what you could have accomplished if you were a bit more diplomatic.
You need to realize that Spearboard and other internet forums can hold a wealth of information. They can also have a bunch of boobs with an opinion.
Somtimes I read things on here from inexperienced spearfisherman that just make me shake my head.
Problem is... you dont always know if your responding to a 17 year old kid who has been in the water only a handfull of times or a proffesional diver/spearfisherman with many thousands of hours in/on/ under the water.
Most of the people lie somewhere in between. ;)
Perhaps youve just got internet fever.
There are more than a few people on this and other boards who are jerks on the internet but nice people in real life.
I will assume that is the case with you. :D

Anyway... back to the discussion. I would think that even those folks opposed to a Goliath harvest would be applauding an actual scientific study to determine the health of the fishery. :confused:
It could proove that the species can withstand a limited harvest but it could just as easily proove that the fishery needs to be closed another 10 years couldnt it??
BTW...its NOT going to be 17 year old kids who have only been in the water a handfull of times collecting the data.
It WILL BE real scientists processing that data.
So what is the fear then?

Like I said in previous posts... there are many questions that need to be answered.
Through a limited harvest we could possibly learn techniques that guarantee the safety of the diver along with the humane cultivation of the animal by spearfisherman. Maybe not??
I certainly have perceptions of how things are and how they should be, (just like everyone else) but im going to try to keep an open mind about this and hope we do the right thing with as much input from as many stakeholders as possible, including yours.

[SLAYER]

i should not get involved but i must wonder why us going into there ocean and them defending it is so bad..yes i do believe they are a little excessive but it does not mean we have to kill a bunch of...i dive for a living and i cannot tell you the last time i had a fish eaten..yes you do have to watch your back a little while diving but there not eating you..as for the deep thing that is very true about fish living in deep water that we never see..i talked to a commercial guy the other day who has caught and heard of gags being caught in 400-600 depths...maybe when you have a bad year on gags it is because they didnt want to come in shallow that year or the water wasnt right..my personal opinion is that there should be a maximum size limit like say 40 inchs and they should be allowed to be harvested in a month long season every year...as for people who get your fish taken man up or kill them if they take your fish its obviously not gonna hurt it by how you sound..i was also wondring how half you guys with 150 quart coolers are gonna properly ice a fish of huge size and as for the gulf i bet if you asked the commercial guys that fish outside 40 miles would tell you they never even catch a jewfish, maybe a couple a year...

[bfsc]

bfsc: Please do whatever survey you wish. You’ll never be able to “prove” something that doesn’t exist. As for the deeper water, jewfish are NOT a deep ocean fish so don’t count on some hidden huge stock out there swimming around with the snowies and tilefish.

What is your definition of "deep ocean fish" 200'? 300'? deeper? I know for a fact that Jewfish definately live at least out to 300'. Maybe deeper but I can't "prove" that. I can prove that they are on every wreck out to 200' (which I don't necisarily think of as "deep") with a similar density as in shallower.

[aue-mike]

Having dived on a bit of deep stuff all around Florida and up along the east coast past Virginia, the deepest I have seen a goliath grouper was on a wreck ~260. I saw one around 265 on the OCEAN FREEZE off Key Largo, and one on a wreck in 260 in the Gulf. These were single specimens. As Bill stated, you typically don't see them in deep water, and by deep I am going to use 200 feet for the purposes of this discussion. Typically you don't see them in any number past 170 feet or so. The two exceptions I can think of are the ROATAN EXPRESS in the Gulf, but then again they prefer to hang out above the deck and around the superstructure (160 and shallower), and the QUEEN OF NASSAU off Islamorada. There are a lot of deep (200-300 foot) wrecks off Palm Beach, Broward, and Dade Counties that I have dived numerous times and you just don't see them. If you do, it usually is only one fish wondering what the hell he is doing so deep.
The habitat is there (lots and lots of it), the food is there, the goliaths simply aren't.
FWIW...

[Summerland Key]

Well said Mike. The deepest I have seen a few would be on the Wilkes off American Shoal. I think that is something like 230-260 to the sand. We did dive the Kendrick several times (326 feet to the sand) and did not see any. I saw some video from two of the wrecks out past teh Kendrick in about 420 and did not see any jewfish on those either. The three wrecks west of Tortugas (in 210-230 feet) I have seen a couple here and there, but never the large aggregations that we find inside of 170 feet. I don't believe they can take the cold water as I know people that have tried to keep them in aquariums in unheated homes/dive shops in the Keys and had problems when the temperature got to low.
I think in areas where you have more of a steep drop off, like West Palm Beach you will find them a little deeper. The warm gulf stream water might have something to do with that also.

[SpearMax]

About six weeks ago, I saw as many as four or five on The Ande wreck off Palm Beach which is 190 feet on the west end and 200 on the east end in the sand. They are usually hanging around the 160-180 range there. i would have to check my head cam video footage to do an actual Goliath count.

[Summerland Key]

It always seems like they are hanging out in the water column, above the thermocline on the deeper wrecks. Don

[RichT]

On the Gulf Coast, I would agree that GG populations seem to go down the deeper you get although the spawning aggregation I witnessed many years ago was in 165 fsw and was estimated to have well over a hundred animals by several different divers.
The aggregation was on a very large factory shrimp boat. The fish were shoulder to shoulder around the rigging, across the deck, down the sides and out in the sand.
The encounter still stands as the most incredible thing Ive ever witnessed under water.
The Roatan in 200 feet of water always seems to have a dozen or more animals on it, but like Mike said, they are typically above the deck.
Ive seen multiples in large potholes in 180-200fsw as well.

Ive talked to several commercial divers who have encountered them in far deeper water but not in any concentrations.
Ive "heard" of bandit fisherman pulling them up from well past 200 feet but cant confirm it.

[Summerland Key]

It is also my experience that the further north you go the shallower you find fish such as red snapper and warsaw groupers. I speared (powerhead) a huge warsaw (303 pounds,headed and gutted) off Daytona in about 1978 in only 180 feet and numerous red snapper off Jacksonville in 70 feet or so in the winter. I think it is a water temperture thing. Don

[bfsc]

i should not get involved but i must wonder why us going into there ocean and them defending it is so bad..yes i do believe they are a little excessive but it does not mean we have to kill a bunch of...i dive for a living and i cannot tell you the last time i had a fish eaten..yes you do have to watch your back a little while diving but there not eating you..as for the deep thing that is very true about fish living in deep water that we never see..i talked to a commercial guy the other day who has caught and heard of gags being caught in 400-600 depths...maybe when you have a bad year on gags it is because they didnt want to come in shallow that year or the water wasnt right..my personal opinion is that there should be a maximum size limit like say 40 inchs and they should be allowed to be harvested in a month long season every year...as for people who get your fish taken man up or kill them if they take your fish its obviously not gonna hurt it by how you sound..i was also wondring how half you guys with 150 quart coolers are gonna properly ice a fish of huge size and as for the gulf i bet if you asked the commercial guys that fish outside 40 miles would tell you they never even catch a jewfish, maybe a couple a year...


:scratch: :confused:

[SpearMax]

i should not get involved but i must wonder why us going into there ocean and them defending it is so bad..yes i do believe they are a little excessive but it does not mean we have to kill a bunch of...i dive for a living and i cannot tell you the last time i had a fish eaten..yes you do have to watch your back a little while diving but there not eating you..as for the deep thing that is very true about fish living in deep water that we never see..i talked to a commercial guy the other day who has caught and heard of gags being caught in 400-600 depths...maybe when you have a bad year on gags it is because they didnt want to come in shallow that year or the water wasnt right..my personal opinion is that there should be a maximum size limit like say 40 inchs and they should be allowed to be harvested in a month long season every year...as for people who get your fish taken man up or kill them if they take your fish its obviously not gonna hurt it by how you sound..i was also wondring how half you guys with 150 quart coolers are gonna properly ice a fish of huge size and as for the gulf i bet if you asked the commercial guys that fish outside 40 miles would tell you they never even catch a jewfish, maybe a couple a year...

:scratch: :confused:

Hmm... i thought brothers understood each other. ;) I could be wrong, but I will take a stab at it. Here is what I read:

yes i do believe they are a little excessive but it does not mean we have to kill a bunch of...i dive for a living and i cannot tell you the last time i had a fish eaten..yes you do have to watch your back a little while diving but there not eating you..

TRANSLATION: There are alot of Goliaths, but they don't get my speared catch away from me and do not present the risk sharks can.

my personal opinion is that there should be a maximum size limit like say 40 inchs and they should be allowed to be harvested in a month long season every year...

i was also wondring how half you guys with 150 quart coolers are gonna properly ice a fish of huge size

TRANSLATION: Set up a limited take harvest of the smaller gag-sized Goliaths in a limited one month take because they can be properly handled in normal recreational coolers. The monster Goliaths present major handling problems and risks.

as for the gulf i bet if you asked the commercial guys that fish outside 40 miles would tell you they never even catch a jewfish, maybe a couple a year...

TRANSLATION: The Gulf way offshore Goliath population is actually sparse. Any concentrations are closer to shore.

[kitefisherman]

as for the gulf i bet if you asked the commercial guys that fish outside 40 miles would tell you they never even catch a jewfish, maybe a couple a year...

You mean 40 fathoms (not miles), right?

40 fathoms = 240 feet

[HeadHunter]

The deepest I've ever personally seen a GG is about 260', and only once in that depth.
Never have I seen, or heard of one being caught deeper.

I've seen one or two on the 40 Break, but they were both way south, with shallower water close by. I've never seen a GG on the 40 Break in the northern Gulf.

When you reach the depths where they start to thin out, then Warsaws begin to show up and assume something of the same role. Kinda cool really.

As much a PITA as they are to me, I'd miss 'em if they weren't around.

[SpearMax]

I've seen one or two on the 40 Break, but they were both way south, with shallower water close by. I've never seen a GG on the 40 Break in the northern Gulf.

Where and what is the 40 break? Does it relate to Slayer's 40 miles or Kite's 40 fathoms?

Don't know your geography that well over there in the Gulf, so I am confused. :confused:

[bfsc]

I think the 40 break is the same thing the 40 fathom line. I know someone who has caught them as deep as 300' over on this coast.

[Denny]

As much a PITA as they are to me, I'd miss 'em if they weren't around.

That is the last thing we want to see... another fishery in trouble.
The goal of a controlled harvest is to 'thin the herd' so to speak, much like the deer populations in Pennsylvania are managed by allowable take during hunting season.

The goliaths are great to look at as well as a part of the ecosystem. We need to manage the fishery wisely.

[bertram25]

Jason,

Lot's of good comments but I have a hard time believing that jewfish have turned "once productive spots into deserts". I can point to areas all over the Palm Beaches that have become "deserts" in recent years for more than just food fish, most of which don't get jewfish on them. The rapidly degrading environment in our area plus fishing pressure has done this. The nutrient loading is over the top now creating all kinds of macro algae blooms. Fish and invertebrate diseases are always present, worse in the summer months. I've watched whole populations of species, even non-targeted species just evaporate. It's a dying system that's the primary culprit here.

Bill

[bertram25]

JAW and Dive4Blood (especially DIVE4Blood),

I haven't been on here in a couple of days so now am just reading your delightful postl about me "repenting" and all the "raping" I did. If you want to know how many fish I took, etc. I'd be happy to ask the fishery statistics section to release that information to you, if for no other reason than to show you how moronic your statements/accusations are. As for jewfish, in my entire career I've killed less than five! As for working, it's true that only recently I've reduced my commercial fishing to a minimum due to lousy prices and a tired body but my position on fishery management goes back to before the jewfish were protected and I've been consistent in my approach for years (see fish trap ban, wire sided lobster trap ban, jewfish protection, snapper-grouper management, tropical fish management plan, keeping rebreathers out of collecting and spearfishing, scientific initiatives to study macro-algae blooms, fish diseases, artificial breakwater systems so as to reduce the need for destructive beach dredging, and on and on). Guess what? That was all volunteer work over the course of my diving career and it all drained my wallet. Don't believe it? Go to the dusty records and look it up- video, audio, transcripts etc. ....and where were you two during all this? Oh, yeah.....taking resource and giving nothing back for it....none of your time, none of your knowledge, none of your money, nothing at all. Oh, now you're in the fray, NOT because you want to manage a fishery but simply because YOU WANT MORE. I'll think about you the next time I DON"T use the Jupiter boat ramp because a number of former fish trappers, still a bit miffed that my video cameras proved that they were lying about what their traps did still tend to slash my tires there. Last time I was there one asshole threatened to kill me. I took it as a compliment. They didn't like it that at the final hearing in front of the South Atlantic Council the swing vote made his final decision to vote to ban fish traps based on that video. I'll also think about you when I swim past schools of reef fish that would have long ago been scarfed up in those fish traps.

JAW, give it some thought. Dive4Blood, you can kiss my salty old ass.

Bill Parks
(no, I'm not Don DeMaria as another "well informed" poster stated earlier-at least he pulled it quickly)

[SLAYER]

kite i did mean 40 miles..i dont see that because there are afew fish on some of the wrecks out side that they are a hasle is what i am saying...even headhunter said quote i would miss them if they werent around..i just think this needs to be thought of a little harder thats all...i think a few fish on wrecks are good for the system and just because one or two that have forty on it does not mean we have to kill...like someone else said just dont hunt the wrecks as much find more reef..

[Summerland Key]

Bertram (Bill):
I think Tony should present you with the Spearboard James A Michener award for the novel you took the time to write on this thread and others!
I also saw the post claiming that I was actually Bertram, before it was pulled. It had a lot of other BS in it. I just chose to ignore it, but figured you would have something to say about it! I am not sure which one of us should be more insulted by the mistaken idenity, you or me? Don

[Denny]

Bertram (Bill):
I think Tony should present you with the Spearboard James A Michener award for the novel you took the time to write on this thread and others!
I also saw the post claiming that I was actually Bertram, before it was pulled. It had a lot of other BS in it. I just chose to ignore it, but figured you would have something to say about it! I am not sure which one of us should be more insulted by the mistaken idenity, you or me? Don


Take equal insult. You two are just too damned competitive. :D

[SpearMax]

Take equal insult. You two are just too damned competitive. :D

:yup:

Sumerland, that James A. Michner award would have to go to Dive4Blood. He is one of Spearboard's most creative writers. He is downright talented and funny as hell!

The Clarence Darrow argumentative award would go to Bertram25. It seems like he has never met a fisheries argument he did not have an opinion on. ;)

Found this interesting piece on Clarence:

WHO IS CLARENCE DARROW?
BY DOUGLAS O. LINDER, PROFESSOR OF LAW, UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI-K.C. (1997)

How does one begin to explain this paradox, this sophisticated country lawyer, this hedonistic defender of the poor and downtrodden, this honest, devious man, Clarence Seward Darrow? It isn't easy. I can, however, offer a series of snapshots:

Kinsman, Ohio, 1860's: Young Clarence, son of the village undertaker and coffin maker never visits the corner of his father's shop where the coffins are stacked; never enters his father's shop after dark....In his autobiographical novel, Farmington, Darrow describes a ten-year-old Midwestern boy who watches a smiling young man march off to fight for the Union, then months later attends his funeral. The boy's mind fills with terror as he sees the soldier's body being lowered into a grave. Darrow feared death. Does that fear explain his lifelong crusade against capital punishment? No client of Darrow's ever was executed. If it happened, he says, it would have killed him.

For more, go to:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/DARESY.HTM

[Summerland Key]

Tony:
If you think the Clarence Darrow argumentative award is more apporpriate for Bill then I will defer to you and agree. He definitely gets people thinking and communicating on issues and that is good.

[Killer&Griller]

SpearMax ---- I was wondering if we had the same "translator" model. Here is what mine spit out.

JAW and Dive4Blood (especially DIVE4Blood),
I haven't been on here in a couple of days so now am just reading your delightful postl about me "repenting" and all the "raping" I did. If you want to know how many fish I took, etc. I'd be happy to ask the fishery statistics section to release that information to you, if for no other reason than to show you how moronic your statements/accusations are.

I'd be happy to show you my log history of fish I have taken in the past as soon as I find it.

I've reduced my commercial fishing to a minimum due to lousy prices and a tired body

I am getting out of the business because I can make more money doing other things than competing with you guys who have all but wiped out most of the good hunting spots.

....and where were you two during all this? Oh, yeah.....taking resource and giving nothing back for it....none of your time, none of your knowledge, none of your money, nothing at all. Oh, now you're in the fray, NOT because you want to manage a fishery but simply because YOU WANT MORE.

I am glad to see that you are starting to realize your potential and the responsibility that we all have to participate in the management of our resources. Welcome aboard and I look forward to working, side by side, with you in the near future.

I'll think about you the next time I DON"T use the Jupiter boat ramp because a number of former fish trappers, still a bit miffed that my video cameras proved that they were lying about what their traps did still tend to slash my tires there. Last time I was there one asshole threatened to kill me. I took it as a compliment.

I was wondering if I could borrow your truck. My truck is down for repairs right now and I really want to go diving today. The neighbor borrowed it and must have driven onto a construction site, picking up a nail or three.

Speaking of which, talk about bad luck, I was at the boat ramp a couple of weeks ago and ran in to my ex-wife and her redneck husband. What a treat that was. Little does he know what lies in store for him in the future.

Keeping in mind that I am J/K and trying to lighten up the personal attack mode. :thumps:

[CWitch]

I've said this in other threads and I will say it again. A limited harvest of Jewfish is necessary to even out the eco-system. The commercial and recreational fishing industry has reduced the reef fish population to a fraction of it's natural level. So, considering the bio-mass consumed by the increasing population of jewfish, one must conclude that a limited harvest will help level out the remaining eco-system. Everything must be done in relative proportions when it relates to apex predators.

And, don't let anyone on this board tries to sell the notion that jewfish do not eat snapper and grouper as part of their regular diet. I have harvested many jewfish in my spearfishing "career" and I found grouper and snapper as well as almost everything else in their stomachs. I would propose that the "studies" or "observations" quoted in this thread that suggests they don't eat gruoper or snapper was tainted by the overfished staus of grouper when jewfish were still allowed to be harvested.

Finally, I have observed a virtual collapse of the large lobster fishery off central Florida over the past few years. I am not a scientist but it is directly correlated to the increas in jewfish population.

Lets go slay some!