Evangelicals and AIDS

[Bill McIntyre]

So what do you think. Is AIDS God's punishment for homosexuals and Evangelicals should stay away from them, or as Rich Warren says, "I have no doubt if Jesus were walking the Earth today, he would be hanging out with people with AIDS"

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-obama30nov30,0,4384112,full.story?coll=la-home-local

Evangelical pastor, Obama join forces to battle AIDS
The O.C. leader of Saddleback Church has taken heat from his peers over the invitation and conference.
By Seema Mehta
Times Staff Writer

November 30, 2006

They came from different worlds: Rick Warren was the conservative white pastor of a 20,000-strong evangelical church in Orange County; Illinois Sen. Barack Obama was a liberal black politician, and a rising star in the Democratic Party.

After meeting in Washington, D.C., in January, they started chatting regularly on the phone. When Obama was writing his best-selling book, "The Audacity of Hope," he asked Warren, himself a best-selling author, to review the chapter on faith.

As Warren planned a second international conference on AIDS at his Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, he asked Obama to address the group during a session Friday titled "We Must Work Together."

Some evangelicals had already criticized Warren for his different approach toward AIDS, which included working with gays. But the speech by the pro-choice potential presidential contender has drawn renewed vitriol from conservative Christian radio hosts and pundits, as well as some evangelical preachers.

"Why would Warren marry the moral equivalency of his pulpit — a sacred piece of honor in evangelical traditions — to the inhumane, sick and sinister evil that Obama has worked for as a legislator?" wrote radio host and blogger Kevin McCullough.

Saddleback Church responded to the criticism with a statement Wednesday defending Obama's appearance at the conference, but also noted Warren's disapproval of some of his political beliefs.

"Let it be made very clear that Pastor Warren and Saddleback Church completely disagree with Obama's views on abortion and other positions he has taken, and have told him so in a public meeting on Capitol Hill," the statement said.

"Our goal has been to put people together who normally won't even speak to each other. We do not expect all participants in the Summit discussion to agree with all of our Evangelical beliefs. However, the HIV/AIDS pandemic cannot be fought by Evangelicals alone."

But the evangelicals' foray into AIDS work is a relatively recent development. According to religious scholars, they were among the loudest voices insisting AIDS was God's punishment for gays' behavior after the disease emerged in 1981. They remain one of the religious groups slowest to respond to the pandemic because of the disease's links to homosexuality and promiscuity, prohibited by their interpretation of the Bible.

"This is a touchy subject for evangelicals," said John C. Green, a professor of religion and politics at the University of Akron and co-author of "Religion and the Culture Wars: Dispatches From the Front." The conference "really is a departure, [but] you'll probably find a lot of the ambivalence really hasn't gone away."

Warren's wife, Kay, agrees that AIDS has been a difficult subject to broach.

"Evangelicals have been really afraid," she said. "They don't want to talk about condoms. They don't want to talk about HIV because that means having to talk about sex. We want to break that kind of silence."

Kay Warren became aware of the vastness of the problem in 2002, after she read a news magazine article about the 12 million orphans the disease had left in Africa.

This discovery spurred her to visit Mozambique, where she met an emaciated woman lying beneath a tree who was dying of AIDS. Warren grew angry that everyone — the woman's family, her church, her government — had abandoned her. Then, she realized she, her husband and their church in an affluent Orange County community were guilty of the same indifference.

"We had done nothing, we had done absolutely nothing," she said. "That hit me like a ton of bricks. Instead of being judgmental about what wasn't being done in other places, since we were doing nothing, we had to come back and repent. We have been so wrong. We haven't cared. We haven't said one word."

The fruit of that revelation is unfolding today at Saddleback Church, where hundreds of scientists, pastors and caregivers will meet at the AIDS conference.

"I have no doubt if Jesus were walking the Earth today, he would be hanging out with people with AIDS," said Rick Warren, author of "The Purpose-Driven Life," the Hawaiian shirt-wearing founder of Saddleback and among the nation's most influential evangelical preachers.

His wife was the catalyst who drove his concern over the disease.

"I realized the face of AIDS was more than just a white gay guy," he said. "It's all kinds, black, brown, women and children, much bigger than I realized. I had no idea what a big deal it was."

The Warrens believe that the vast network of houses of worship throughout the world, acting in concert with government, businesses and nonprofits, can provide medical treatment, nutrition and services to people with AIDS. While they do not condone some of the behavior that may lead to the spread of AIDS, the Warrens said it is their sacred duty to show mercy to anyone the disease afflicts.

A broad range of speakers from the medical community, relief organizations and religious groups from around the world will discuss the problem, and how local churches can help solve it. Rock singer Bono, Bill and Melinda Gates and Sen. Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) will deliver messages via videotape. In addition to Obama, addressing the conference will be evangelical leader Franklin Graham, and Sen. Sam Brownback (R-Kan.), another potential presidential candidate.

"While we will never see eye-to-eye on all issues, surely we can come together with one voice to honor the entirety of Christ's teachings by working to eradicate the scourge of AIDS, poverty and other challenges we all can agree must be met," Obama said in a written statement.

Warren said creating a forum where people of differing viewpoints can discuss their beliefs and possible solutions is key to slowing the spread of AIDS.

"Republicans, Democrats, gay, straight, Christians, Jews, Muslims — can we not work on some of these issues together?" he asked.

No is the answer some evangelicals give. Warren's willingness to work with people he disagrees with has drawn the wrath of some conservatives, as has his support of condom use outside of marriage to prevent AIDS.

"You can't work together with people totally opposed to what you are," said Wiley S. Drake, pastor of First Southern Baptist Church in Buena Park and second vice president of the 42,000-church Southern Baptist Convention. "This kind of conference is just going to lead people astray."

AIDS activists also question the Warrens' sincerity, given their belief that homosexuality is a sin.

"This is a group that's going to have to prove their good work before the AIDS community and the worldwide health community trust them," said Craig Thompson, executive director of AIDS Project Los Angeles.

Progress appears be taking place, albeit slowly.

Alan Witchey, executive director of the AIDS Services Foundation of Orange County, didn't attend last year's conference because he had no interest in what the Warrens had to say.

But his organization and the Warrens have had conversations in recent months, and Saddleback Church has conducted food drives for the foundation.

"Five years ago, if you had said to me, 'Would you ever sit down at a table with an evangelical group and talk about how to collaboratively provide services?' I would have thought that couldn't happen," he said.

seema.mehta@latimes.com

[Gradyman]

Praise God...Good to see folks seperating the sin from the sinner and loving the sinner (not the sin) like Jesus did.

[mcjaret]

It does seem that if AIDS is a punishment from God directed towards homosexuals, he could be a little more precise in his aim. Lots of heterosexuals and innocents dying from this thing rather than just those gay "sinners." Is lung cancer a punishment for the sin of smoking. (Jesus never mentioned that as problematic, but who knows.) Is black lung disease a punishment for the sin of digging up and fouling creation? Maybe AIDS is just another disease that we humans have to buck up and deal with together, and judgmental condemnation of the sufferers is counterproductive.

Jesus was roundly critized in his time for hanging out with drunks, whores and other sinners. (I, too, have found them to be a lot more fun as compared to spending the evening with the publically pious.) He taught that we should help the least of those in society, to include, the poor, the sick and incarcerated criminals. AIDS sufferers seem to fit nicely in that group. Lepers were thought to be suffering the punishment of God 2000 years ago, but according to scripture, he didn't shy away from them.

[jfjf]

I think the statistic is: HIV is the number one killer of 25-40 yr old black women in this country. Ignorant prejudice against the victims of this disease is a huge part of the problem.

[apnea_complex]

I once had a guy in my Econ class try to tell me that AIDS was the worlds garbage disposal.

[Gradyman]

Sorry guys, I feel like my statement above may have came out wrong seeing your posts...I don't want to get too deep here about a fallen world, disease, sickness, sin etc...I'm just glad to see Pastor Warrens church stepping out and loving people instead of judging them & writing them off as hopeless. That's not what Jesus was about.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

Being gay may be a sin but we all are sinners we can't say they deserve this any more than any of ourselves. I don't think it is a punishment but a consequence that is why we have been advised against promiscuity.Aids is a horible disease and anybody that has it deserves our help and sympathy. I can't speak for the views of all Christians but thats mine.

[jackpine savage]

Not all of the people with AIDS are gay. The vast majority of the cases in Africa where transmitted amongst heterosexuals. This is also the case in Haiti and in most of the countries of Asia.

[Ironhed]

Being gay may be a sin but we all are sinners we can't say they deserve this any more than any of ourselves. I don't think it is a punishment but a consequence that is why we have been advised against promiscuity.Aids is a horible disease and anybody that has it deserves our help and sympathy. I can't speak for the views of all Christians but thats mine.
I feel the same way

[ITSABOUTTIME]

Not all of the people with AIDS are gay. The vast majority of the cases in Africa where transmitted amongst heterosexuals. This is also the case in Haiti and in most of the countries of Asia.
It doesn't matter is thats what I'm trying to say I deserve it as much as anybody that does have it. The threads question was do evangelicals think it is a judgement.

[AshAsh]

In this case, why they think only gay are being punished? adultery is also a sin if we go by the ten commandments and the bible? am I missing something?

[Im1chunkymunky]

Being gay may be a sin but we all are sinners we can't say they deserve this any more than any of ourselves. I don't think it is a punishment but a consequence that is why we have been advised against promiscuity.Aids is a horible disease and anybody that has it deserves our help and sympathy. I can't speak for the views of all Christians but thats mine.
yep

[jackpine savage]

It doesn't matter is thats what I'm trying to say I deserve it as much as anybody that does have it. The threads question was do evangelicals think it is a judgement.
I see my misunderstanding. I dont think all evangelicals feel that its a judgement or if they do one that still deserves sympathy and care in dealing with it as shown by Pastor Warren

[Bill McIntyre]

I see my misunderstanding. I dont think all evangelicals feel that its a judgement or if they do one that still deserves sympathy and care in dealing with it as shown by Pastor Warren

But the article says Warren is taking heat from a lot of evangelicals.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

But the article says Warren is taking heat from a lot of evangelicals.
well Bill so far it doesn't apear anybody here will give him any heat.

[Bill McIntyre]

well Bill so far it doesn't apear anybody here will give him any heat.

And I'm glad to hear it. All evangelicals are not haters after all, but I can't help getting that impression from reading about those who seem to get press coverage.

[Ironhed]

just remember Bill the media only covers stuff if it is controversial, I like to think of it in a way that I know the media. I have pitbulls and I know the breed well, I had 9 adult pits at one time and have had about 15 total over the years, I bred and sold over 200 pups too. I know there are some mean ones but out of all the dogs I have owned and sold it has been very few only 3 or 4 that i know of ended up being aggressive towards people. I know the media would have you believe that that percentage is much much higher because they only report stories on pitbulls when they attack someone and they sensationalize the stories in such a way that you will think there is an epidemic of man eating pitbulls. I know that the media does this with everything not just pits, so when i see stuff like this I have to look at it with that in mind. just like the catholic priests, yes there have been some that have molested children and it is sick really sick but I don't think that all priests are molesting kids. in any population you will have bad apples and the media is real good at making people think there are alot more bad apples than there is.

[inletsurf]

Here we go again.

Consider this: If they feel horny, maybe the catholic priests can go molest pit bulls.

Problem solved.

[Bill McIntyre]

Today's LA Tiimes has interesting article in which the President of the Fuller Theological Seminary explains the meaning and history of the word "evangelical" and explains why it got a negative connotation in popular culture. Its too long to paste in, but you can read it at

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-beliefs2dec02,1,6243365,full.story?coll=la-headlines-california

if you are interested.

[Bill McIntyre]

And here is the followup article about the AIDS conference at Saddleback Church. Its also too long to paste in, but here is the opener.
AIDS fight needs churches, Obama says
Senator disagrees on condom issue, but tells evangelicals that moral guidance is needed.
By Michael Finnegan, Times Staff Writer
December 2, 2006

U.S. Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois told more than 2,000 evangelical leaders in Orange County on Friday that he "respectfully but unequivocally" disagrees with those who oppose condom distribution to fight the AIDS pandemic. But he said a solution to the worldwide spread of AIDS would also come from churches guiding people to make moral decisions.

Obama, a Democrat weighing a run for the White House, made his remarks at an evangelical AIDS conference sponsored by Saddleback Church in Lake Forest.

Some conservatives, offended by Obama's support for legal abortion, had called on the mega-church's pastor, Rick Warren, to rescind his invitation to the senator.

Yet Obama drew a standing ovation from the 2,072 pastors and others who came from 39 states and 18 nations to explore church solutions to the AIDS pandemic, which has killed 25 million people worldwide. In measured words, he dismissed the notion that simply discouraging promiscuity could stop the spread of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS.

If you want the rest,

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-obama2dec02,1,6597215.story?coll=la-headlines-california

[jeffcroci]

for the record the fastest growing group of people getting aids in the USA is HETEROSEXUAL males I think like 17-24. Im not a 100% sure of the exact numbers or ages but its the over all fact

jeff

[nwagner91]

There's one simple answer, save your virginity till your married

[Bill McIntyre]

There's one simple answer, save your virginity till your married

Its simple alright, but maybe unrealistic if we are really interested in saving lives rather than preaching morals.

All those African women catching it from their husbands who caught it from prostitutes are already married, but they sure could benefit from condoms.

And for good old promiscuous Americans engaging in premarital sex, would you prefer that they die for their sin, or prefer that they used a condom?

[nwagner91]

Its simple alright, but maybe unrealistic if we are really interested in saving lives rather than preaching morals.

All those African women catching it from their husbands who caught it from prostitutes are already married, but they sure could benefit from condoms.

And for good old promiscuous Americans engaging in premarital sex, would you prefer that they die for their sin, or prefer that they used a condom?

I'm just saying that if all americans could save their virginity till marriage we'd have a much lower std spread rate and eventually there wouldn't be any more stds to worry about because they would all be wiped out.

If it comes down to whether or not i think they should die for their sins or use a condom, use a condom then. But i still think that is morally wrong. Preaching these morals enough i believe will save peoples lives.

[mnguy]

Preaching these morals enough i believe will save peoples lives.

I'd have to disagree. Preach all you want, but people are always going to be doing the dirty outside of wedlock. People were doing it out of wedlock ever since wedlock was invented, regardless of the moral precepts of whatever religion they subscribed to. People were doing it out of wedlock in Europe even as the Catholic Church ruled the European world.

Unless you are physically able to go in and install a primal loathing of premarital and extramarital sex in people's minds, I highly doubt that any amount of preaching will save people. Most of the time, a preacher/proselytizer's words will fly like seeds onto inhospitable ground. Every once in awhile you'll get someone who is more receptive and the seed will grow but more often than not it will fail. The question then becomes if saving that 5% or whatever is worth all of that preaching for one versus saving more by letting them stay safe. Secondly, you'd have to ask yourself which is more morally reprehensible: letting the people do it while helping them stay safe or letting them do it and let them kill themselves.

[Gradyman]

There's one simple answer, save your virginity till your married

I agree with the virginity part...although it's not a simple solution...takes a lot of time investing the right standards in your kids from when they are young...now a days, really young. I've heard it said that rules without relationship breed rebellion. We put a lot of time into our first daughter teaching her the pitfalls of premarital sex/broken hearts...she received the wisdom in it & when she met the right guy she was a virgin & stayed that way till they got married, 8 months later :eek:...young I admit at 20yrs, but we've been blessed with two grand kids already and they've been married just under two years...Irish twins I think they call them...10 months apart...guess they figured out how the "plumbing works" :D

And she ain't no "homely christian girl" either...we're very proud!

[Bill McIntyre]

Gradyman,

That's just great if your daughter was a virgin, but its almost meaningless.

Pastor Rick Warren has figured out that he should promote the use of condoms if he is serious about saving lives, while a lot of his evangelical brethren want to keep their heads stuck in the sand and rely on pushing abstinence.

I don't know whether they are really so naive as to think that their preaching will actually change behavior and save lives, or they realize that it won't but just don't care because they think the sinners deserve to die.

[Gradyman]

I don't know whether they are really so naive as to think that their preaching will actually change behavior and save lives, or they realize that it won't but just don't care because they think the sinners deserve to die.

Bill,

I think neither of the above...I put my testimony out concerning my daughter to encourage others & to show that even though it may "seem" impossible to raise kids with that moral, it is not. Pastors preach it because it's the truth for a better more fulfilling life and the message does save lives & change behavior, you just haven't seen it and so of coarse you can't believe it, (the exact reason again for our testimony)...whether people recieve it is up to them...I think it would be a badly mixed up message to combine preaching with condom distribution at the same event..."Hey kids, stay pure, but we know you won't so here's condoms"...why preach it then. I do agree that condoms should be used and at certain events under the right circumstance they should be given out along with the correct warning that aids can still be passed.

[Marcus]

Grady,

No disrespect but...how do you really know your daughter was a virgin when she married?

Do you really think she would've told you if she wasn't. I'd be really interested in seeing the actual true figures of people that retained their virginity until marriage.

BTW....she is a pretty girl, congratulations.

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill,

Pastors preach it because it's the truth for a better more fulfilling life and the message does save lives & change behavior, you just haven't seen it and so of coarse you can't believe it,

I resent the implicatation that I can't raise kids with high moral standards, and that I didn't. When it comes to high moral standards, I'll put those of my children up against those of the children of born-again Christians any time.

I resent the implication that a life is not fulfilling unless its done your way. Your words show that you have so bought into your own preaching that you are intolerant of anyone not living life exactly the way you think it should be lived.

The reason that you can't believe that someone who hasn't bought your Christian bag can't do it is because you never tried it and of course can't believe it, but there really are truths out there other than your own. Of course I realize its like banging my head against the wall to say that, because you think God told you your truths.

You think its a badly mixed message to preach abstinence and offer condoms at the same time, but you are just not facing reality. When the preaching doesn't work, and it usually doesn't, then the kid is left unprotected.

And of course its just criminal for evangelicals to try to deny use of government funds to provide condoms in Third World Countries. They are blatantly condemning people to death in the name of their own Christian standards. Shame on them.

I've read that kids who take the pledge of abstinence publicly with Promise Keepers end up with the same rate of premarital sex as the average, but are more likely to have unprotected sex when they do. That is not doing them a service.

I like Inletsurf's statement on premarital sex too. Its no always bad, and even may be good. Of course you think that God condemns it, but I don't. And since its not a sin, the only question for me is whether it causes physical or emotional harm. Sex is not a dirty thing, and my only concern is that it be respectful, loving, and non-exploitative. Sex outside of marriage can have those characteristics, and much sex inside of marriage does not. There is no magic change when a ceremony is performed.

[Bill McIntyre]

Here are some results of surveys, some by Christian sociologists, that show how much difference it makes to be born again.
**************************************
"[1] Divorce is more common among "born-again" Christians than in the
general American population. Only 6 percent of evangelicals tithe. White
evangelicals are the most likely people to object to neighbors of
another race. Josh McDowell has pointed out that the sexual promiscuity
of evangelical youth is only a little less outrageous than that of their
nonevangelical peers.

• Divorce

In a 1999 national survey, George Barna found that the percentage of
born-again Christians who had experienced divorce was slightly higher
(26 percent) than that of non-Christians (22 percent).[7] In Barna's
polls since the mid-1990s, that number has remained about the same.[8]
In August 2001, a new poll found that the divorce rate was about the
same for born-again Christians and the population as a whole; 33 percent
of all born-again Christians had been divorced compared with 34 percent
of non-born-again Americans—a statistically insignificant difference.
Barna also found in one study that 90 percent of all divorced born-again
folk divorced after they accepted Christ.[9]

Barna makes a distinction between born-again Christians and
evangelicals. Barna classifies as born-again all who say "they have made
a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their
life today" and who also indicate that they "believe that when they die
they will go to heaven because they have confessed their sins and
accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior."[10] In Barna's polls anywhere
from 35 to 43 percent of the total U.S. population meet these criteria
for being born-again.

Barna limits the term "evangelical" to a much smaller group—just 7 to 8
percent of the total U.S. population. In addition to meeting the
criteria for being born-again, evangelicals must agree with several
other things such as the following: Jesus lived a sinless life; eternal
salvation is only through grace, not works; Christians have a personal
responsibility to evangelize non-Christians; Satan exists. Obviously
this definition identifies a much more theologically biblical, orthodox
group of Christians.

What is the divorce rate among evangelicals? According to a 1999 poll by
Barna, exactly the same as the national average! According to that poll,
25 percent of evangelicals—just like 25 percent of the total
population—have gone through a divorce.[11] Does it make no difference
to evangelicals that their Lord and Savior explicitly, clearly,
repeatedly condemned divorce?

"Have you not read that the one who made them at the beginning
'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man shall
leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall
become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore
what God has joined together, let no one separate."
Matthew 19:4–6 (NRSV)

Professor Brad Wilcox is a Princeton-trained, Christian sociologist who
specializes in family issues. Wilcox has studied two sets of national
data: The General Social Survey and The National Survey of Families and
Households. The result? "Compared with the rest of the population,
conservative Protestants are more likely to divorce." He also points out
the divorce rates are higher in the southern U.S., where conservative
Protestants make up a higher percentage of the population than elsewhere
in the country.[12]

A story in the New York Times in 2001 underlined Wilcox's findings about
the unusually high divorce rates in the South. In many parts of the
Bible Belt, the divorce rate was discovered to be "roughly 50 percent
above the national average" (italics mine).[13] Governor Frank Keating
of Oklahoma pointed out the irony that these unusually high divorce
rates exist in his state, where 70 percent of the people go to church
once a week or more. "These divorce rates," Gov. Keating concluded, "are
a scalding indictment of what isn't being said behind the pulpit."

[ITSABOUTTIME]

Bill , Gradymans post didn't imply anything but that the ideal is to have sex inside a marriage with one person, and that though hard is possible. Its pretty clear your just gonna work this thread from every angle until you find a way to villify Christians. Your a pretty open minded guy :rolleyes:

[Gamble]

For any living person on this earth to really believe that god would create a horrible disease to punish people who made mistakes need to rethink there views on life. I personally couldn't care less what some evangelist preacher has to say or his thoughts or views on anything. No one other than God has the authority or right to judge other human beings regarding there place in heaven. People need to stop being sheep and believing everything they are told and start thinking for them selves. Just because a preacher says something to his congregation does not make it right or factual or Christ like.

I am not trying to bash any religion or religious person. I am simply trying to make the point that there are people that mislead others for there own personal interests even in organized religion.

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill , Gradymans post didn't imply anything but that the ideal is to have sex inside a marriage with one person, and that though hard is possible. Its pretty clear your just gonna work this thread from every angle until you find a way to villify Christians. Your a pretty open minded guy :rolleyes:

I started the thread because some Christians like Rick Warren are bucking the tide and actually advocating condoms to save lives, and I'm certainly not vilifying him, although some of his evangelical brethren are.

I'd have been perfectly happy to stick to that subject, but if someone wants to tell me that I wouldn't understand how to raise children for a moral and fulfilling life because I haven't tried it, than you can bet I'll respond about me personally, as well as showing some numbers that indicate that born-agains are not doing any better than the rest of the population in such areas as divorce rates.

[nwagner91]

Bill, i don't think gradyman was attacking you personally, but more so telling his views on your previous statements.

It's true that a lot of people will have sex before they are married but even for the people who aren't christians wouldn't it be better if you saved your virginity for marriage. That's a present that's like no other to the special someone who you want to spend the rest of your life with.

Plus, there are other fixes in life that can fufill you, like spearfishing. You can do so much more with your time and stuff that is more important to life than trying to hook up with a whole bunch of chicks.

[inletsurf]

I removed my statement because I rambled on into a couple of experiences with crazy hypocrite Christian women I had, and although relevant to the topic, I reconsidered posting it, as it may be interpreted as an insult to someone else.

However, to revamp the main point I was making about premarital sex is this:

Sex is a huge part of a relationship. You all who think that sex is on the bottom of the list, are full of shit and don't know what you are talking about. Basically the man or woman who aren't having their sexual needs met, are having or will have them fulfilled somewhere else.

Nobody can have a healthy relationship with someone who is not sexually compatible with them. And whats worse, is that they seek help from Christian counseling, and that doesn't help due to the sensitivity of the subject.

And the worst part is that nobody is allowed to watch porn to get new ideas of how they can improve their sex life!!!!

[Marcus]

Saving yourself for the person your going to be married to is a cool gift if'n there aren't somehow sexually inadequte. The christians certainly aren't the only ones to champion the idea though.

[AshAsh]

I really think it would take more than just waitting tto get married and keeping one sex partener. This is of course a first step, but what if someone waits to get married for example and then ends up geting married to someone with HIV?? or what if someone has HIV and does not know about it? I think 1 in every 3 people with HIV does not know they have it.
Someone or some organization should look at those issues and make realistic solutions not recommendations that only keep the problem behind peoples back as if it is ok and everything is under control. Maybe something like "war on Aids" simpilar to war on terrorisim.

[Bill McIntyre]

It's true that a lot of people will have sex before they are married but even for the people who aren't christians wouldn't it be better if you saved your virginity for marriage. That's a present that's like no other to the special someone who you want to spend the rest of your life with.

The present that is most important is commitment and a willingness to work together through a relationship. As the title of a current book goes, "Love is a Decision."

If you are afraid of competition and insecure, I can see how marrying someone who has had sex with someone else might seem threatening. But I would seriously consider having sex with your intended before you marry. That way neither of you (or are we just concerned about the female, which seems to be so often the case?) will have had sex with someone else, but you will find out whether you are sexually compatible. Sex is so important in a relationship, and its a bit late to find out on your wedding night that one of you was molested as a child and has unresolved issues about healthy sex, or that one of you has had your sexuality so stuffed by religious indoctrination that he or she can never relax and take a healthy approach and be a partner in it.

BTW, don't confuse "knowing how the plumbing works" with a sex life. A lot of children have been conceived by woman staring at the ceiling or eating apples while their husbands "did their thing."

Plus, there are other fixes in life that can fufill you, like spearfishing. You can do so much more with your time and stuff that is more important to life than trying to hook up with a whole bunch of chicks.

That leaves me almost speechless is so many ways.

First, if you thing Spearfishing is a replacement for sex, you like it a lot more than I do. Its certainly fulfilling in its own way, but its not a replacement.

Second, I'm not advocating hooking up "with a whole bunch of chicks." I said in an earlier post that "my only concern is that sex be respectful, loving, and non-exploitative." I was not a virgin at my wedding day, but my style was always cramped by not being willing to screw someone that I didn't like. Sometimes I regretted that in the short term, but in the long term I'm glad it was that way.

There is a lot of space between being a virgin on your wedding day and screwing everything in sight. If, for instance, you had a monogamous relationship with someone for two years in college but then it didn't work out, you wouldn't be a virgin, but you may even have benefitted from the experience rather than being damaged by it.

[Gradyman]

OK here goes...good thing I "love" you guys and not a debate; I know the Lord has put this "ministry" on my heart because at times it surely goes beyond my "love capabilities". Sometimes I'm asking the Lord "is all this time I spend typing in this forum really worth it"...then I get some awesome PM and phone calls that remind me it is.

First to Marcus, thanks for the compliment...She is a special girl. I put the photo up to show that she would have had no problems being asked out. We know of her saving herself for marriage because of her relationship with her Mom. It's one that is very "open door" and the love they share is unconditional on her being a "good Christian"...they talk about everything...and we trust that she spoke the truth. Plus we know this is what she also believed in her heart and was walking out.

Bill,

Gees where to start??? I'm surprised that you would think I meant disrespect...I was a little miffed at your comment of Pastors being naive and stating that abstinence didn't work, but I don't even know the ages of your kids to have aimed that comment at them...I was really thinking of Christians that you know who's kids have not proven that this is possible and since you don’t believe unless it’s proven to you I thought I would offer some proof that an abstinence ideal can work.

Bill, you need to stop looking at Christians in general as a representation of Christ...I know that they are supposed to be ambassadors for Him but you really need to look at Him and not them for your living proof. Just look at Barna's study on how many are "close" enough to the Lord to believe the more stringent definition...what was it 7 - 8%?? Now I personally take it a step further and say that out of them how many have a real relationship with Christ...probably half that. I define a real relationship as person that "no longer lives, but it's Christ living through them"...I know this will sound "Greek" to most reading this, but hopefully there comes a time in a persons walk with the Lord where they die to themselves and surrender to God in every decision...there are many who have received Christ as their savior, but not as Lord...it's kind of weird to think about in our culture having someone as your Lord & Master and it seems like it would be real restrictive, BUT it's actually very liberating and will set one free. I by no means am a perfect walking ambassador either, but that is my goal and grace is my empowerment…see some of the devotionals…Anyway...

Great sex doesn't come from trying out a partner before marriage. What after one or two or three "runs" one decides if they are compatible, seems shallow and lacks true intimacy? Sex, the physical part of a relationship should go much deeper emotionally & mentally and spiritually and it will when the Lords in it...much deeper then the wisdom of man can take a couple since He is the designer of it. If there are issues that need to be discussed a couple who's intimacy is on the right track for marriage will have discussed those things ahead of time and be ready, if not have overcome them, by the time the honeymoon arrives...the counseling available to our couples at church is very explicit when it comes to that area of a marriage...(a good book to pick up is "His needs Her needs"). There is so much that can be addressed here, but my main points are these...Condoms should be given out when ministry of abstinence is not going on, if ministry of abstinence saves one kid/event from the horror of aids & the pitfalls of premarital sex, then preach it. If you find out more about the way Pastor Warren & Senator Obama are working this out in the ministry I’d be interested in it…I personally think they will handle each event differently, I could be wrong and in that case I would love to hear their results.

[Gradyman]

what if someone waits to get married for example and then ends up geting married to someone with HIV?? or what if someone has HIV and does not know about it?

If there is any doubt or questions in a couples mind they should be tested...I know of a few that were just to be sure, and that's the road of intimacy towards marriage I'm talking about above.

[Gradyman]

Sex is a huge part of a relationship. You all who think that sex is on the bottom of the list, are full of shit and don't know what you are talking about. Basically the man or woman who aren't having their sexual needs met, are having or will have them fulfilled somewhere else.

Nobody can have a healthy relationship with someone who is not sexually compatible with them. And whats worse, is that they seek help from Christian counseling, and that doesn't help due to the sensitivity of the subject.

And the worst part is that nobody is allowed to watch porn to get new ideas of how they can improve their sex life!!!!

Steve,

Sex is a huge part and a clear understanding of the needs of both sexes is vital, again I suggest for couples the book "His needs Her Needs".

I can refer a great Christian counselor here in Daytona that will "cut to the chase" when the couples are open to it.

Steve, porn for ideas...well, I can't say too much about porn, I guess porn would give some folks ideas, but they are playing with a loaded gun that could backfire on them. The Lord has blessed me with great ideas for enhancing our experience together...He was the creator of sex and will help anyone who asks. Hey, have you ever tried the position where!!!... :D Just kidding....

[Gradyman]

because you think God told you your truths.

You think its a badly mixed message to preach abstinence and offer condoms at the same time, but you are just not facing reality. When the preaching doesn't work, and it usually doesn't, then the kid is left unprotected.

Bill,

Here in lies the difference...I don't "think" He told me I "know" He told me.

I also know the reality I've seen speaks differently Bill...preaching works, it's the hearer who doesn't most of the time. If kids aren't strong enought to run to the Lord or someone that's helping them stay accountable in thier time of temptaion then they should use a condom. I'm not in a cloud concerning this reality, I'm just reaching "higher then the clouds" in it.

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill,

Here in lies the difference...I don't "think" He told me I "know" He told me.



I guess that should stop any attempt at discussion with you. It's hard to argue with anyone who "knows" that God told him something.

I'm sure that if anyone tried to argue with Tomas de Torqumeda, first Inquisitor-General of the Spanish Inquisition, about torturing and murdering thousands of people, he would have answered that he knew that God had told him to do it. Sunnis kill Shiites and vice versa because God told them to do it.

I'll spare you other examples of Christians doing things with which I'm reasonably confident that you would not be in agreement because they knew God told them to do it. But when anyone of any faith starts saying that he gets the word directly from God, that's when it gets scary for the rest of us.

[Gradyman]

Not to be scared Bill, The Bible says "you will know a tree by it's fruit" the tree represents man and the fruit what comes out of him...these others you mentioned seem to have a nasty, bitter, hateful "fruit"...I don't know much about them, but as for myself I know He lives in me and speaks to Me and I hear His "voice" and try to remain obediant to what He tells me...you are welcome to judge my fruit.

[Bill McIntyre]

you are welcome to judge my fruit.

Now we have come full circle. I try to judge everyone by his fruit, but not by the fact that he tells me that he gets instructions from God. You were not addressing fruit at all, but telling me that your way was the right way because God told you.

I don't know you, so I can't possibly judge your fruit, but I have seen some pretty rotten fruit hanging on others who tell me that they get instructions from God, and pretty healthy fruit hanging from others. Its the end result that matters to me, not the way that someone's moral code was formed.

And example from this board- a person was injecting professions of faith into spearfishing threads, and I asked him to stop and start a thread in Off Topic if he wanted to discuss religion.

His response to that was to create a second user name and use it to tell lies about trips with me on my boat, when in fact I have never even met the guy, much less taken him on my boat. When I finally found out from Scott who it was, I sent him a PM asking if such behavior was consistent with his professed Christianity. And of course he answered that while he was Christian, he certainly wasn't perfect yet. He sure wasn't.

Now I realize that this was just one person and every other born-again cannot be held responsible for him, but it does show why its the fruit that matters to me, and not the fact that you get direct messages from God.

I'm told that every trips on his boat starts with a prayer. I hope the prayer includes a plea for help in not creating fake identities and telling lies.

So yes, I do want to judge people by their fruit. But I don't need them telling me that they get directions directly from God so that they are right and I am wrong. And when they tell me that, its not likely to make me think their fruit (or their opinion on child rearing, condoms, etc.) is any better than that of someone who doesn't talk to God.

[Gradyman]

Bill, ...
Pastors preach it because it's the truth for a better more fulfilling life and the message does save lives & change behavior, you just haven't seen it and so of coarse you can't believe it, (the exact reason again for our testimony)...whether people recieve it is up to them...I think it would be a badly mixed up message to combine preaching with condom distribution at the same event..."Hey kids, stay pure, but we know you won't so here's condoms"...why preach it then. I do agree that condoms should be used and at certain events under the right circumstance they should be given out along with the correct warning that aids can still be passed.


Bill,

I didn't think my statement said you were wrong...only that you are not able to believe that preaching would do any good...and this because you have seen no proof of it. The idea of preaching the abstinence message while handing out condoms is wrong because it's a mixed message. If there is an event where abstinence is being taught or preached then that subject should remain the goal. Abstinence works; I've seen plenty of testimonies to it. Condoms passed out to those who "can't receive" that message is the best alternative to doing nothing for them. I'm not speaking down about these kids when I say that...maybe the ministry would be to pass out condoms at a concert where preaching would be a silly thing to do. At that type of event maybe they could hand out a little pamphlet with the condom explain, dating, premarital sex, abstinence and these good God suggestions so that in private the kids may look at it and maybe see it as something attainable.

As far as hearing God, I do, and I happen to think His direction has a lot more wisdom then mine. When I share what He's told me it's to help others, if they don't "take it" that's fine, if they don't beleive it there's not much I can do unles it's from a sincere heart and they just need it explained further.

I think we're pretty much done here, unless you think of something else...we see some of it the same and some of it differently...so what else is new!! ;)

I'm really sorry that christian spearo did that...it's not hard to get thrown off track and "take matters into your own hands" as they did there...look at the bright side, they recognized their mistake and from what I get from your post they apologized...if it weren't for a repentant heart & grace from eachother we'd all be a lot worse off. In all sincereity Bill, even though we get at eachother sometimes I think the dialogue is good and it can be done in a friendly manner without insult & verbal digs. I apologize if I've done either, that's not my intention.

[AshAsh]

Bill,



As far as hearing God, I do, and I happen to think His direction has a lot more wisdom then mine.

With all my respect, How do you know it is God who speaks to you?
usually not directly either.

[Gradyman]

With all my respect, How do you know it is God who speaks to you?
usually not directly either.


Ash…here’s what I posted (with some modifications) in the Christian thread…post #231 I think…hope it helps.


Also, when god 'talks' to you, do you hear his voice in your head? Is it a low rumbling voice like you hear in the movies or a higher pitched one?


I have a few minutes to spare Marcus I'll try to explain what I get from God. I've never heard an audible voice myself. It's more like an inner voice that gives me what I need in my seeking....whether it is strength, confidence, knowledge, wisdom, discernment etc...It doesn't always get to me "pronto" either, sometimes there is a waiting in which things slowly unfold to you and you gain understanding...some situations like the death of a child are rarely "put to rest" quickly and fully...there is always the why's and what if's that can plague a parent. God does ease the agony that those questions stir up and like I said He gives a peace that eventually allows us to feel joy and receive the blessings that come from going through a trial of that magnitude...I can assure you time doesn't heal...God does...I've met many through our trial that have no peace after 20+ yrs since there tragedy.

Back to hearing Him...most of the time it will be an inner witness of the heart, a thought somewhat like hearing your own conscious, but bigger & wiser and always more satisfying. It’s a thought that comes to you from His Spirit to your spirit…like a intuition, a gut feeling that keeps getting stronger and stronger. It becomes so strong that you want to act on it realizing it’s completely right or run from it like Jonah. There is a certain knowing as well that the “answer” you just received came from Him because it showed you how to look at the situation from a brand new perspective…one that your weren’t even aware of or thinking about…

Learning to hear God takes faith at first, not monumental or super spiritual faith...think of faith as confidence...In any good relationship your confidence is built into trust and that becomes something you hardly even think of after you have spent time in that relationship. Same with God...He is into relationship with us and wants to talk with us...like our kids with us, we may not comprehend all He is saying, but as we learn about Him and talk with Him at the level in which we are capable right now, He teaches us how to hear Him clearly and understand.

[inletsurf]

Hmm. I thought for certain He would have sounded like Charlton Heston.

[Gradyman]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Steve I needed that man...Thanks

[aaron proffitt]

Saving yourself for the person your going to be married to is a cool gift if'n there aren't somehow sexually inadequte. The christians certainly aren't the only ones to champion the idea though.


Well said ,Marcus.We tend to advocate it as it lends itself more to "balance"as it were. Typically, the very many problems associated with pre-marital sex out weigh the immediate satisfaction of it.Kinda tends to run counter the'though that it harm none,do as ye will' mantra. Invariably,one could be harmed greatly. My .02.

[inletsurf]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Steve I needed that man...Thanks

Coincidently, I watched that Geico commercial with Charleton Heston right before I read your post.

[Gradyman]

Coincidently, I watched that Geico commercial with Charleton Heston right before I read your post.


Coincidently??? Or could it be God!! :eek: Just kidding :D