Inletsurf's original question.....

[phins fan]

....steve brought up an interesting question in his thread, one that I had asked myself.......i did some study on differences and came up with some info......


We all know this country is considered the "great melting pot of the world" and of course the pot would not be complete unless it also included the religions of those people that call America home......

its vast and complexed........


There are many modern "minority" religious movements.....some we can call "cults". By using the word cult, i mean nothing derogatory to any group, but define it as any religious group which differs SIGNIFICANTLY in some or more respects as to belief or practice of the religious groups which are regarded as the "norm" in our culture. A cult may also be seen as a group of people gathered around a specific person or person's mis-interpretation of the Bible. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses are, for the most part, follower's of the interpretations of Charles T. Russell and J.F. Rutherford. The Christ Scientist of today is a disciple of Mary Baker Eddy and her interpretations. The Mormons, by their own admission, adhere to those found in the writings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.....and like many others contain many major deviatons from HISTORIC Christianity. Yet, paradoxically, they continue to insist that they are entitled to be classified as Christians.

These groups clearly represents the earnest attempt of humans to find fulfillment, the needs of the human spirit. A wise man once said that "a man who will not stand for something is quite likely to fall for almost anything."

Since the earliest days of Christianity, both apostle and disciple alike have been confronted with the perversion of the revelation God has given us in the person of Jesus Christ and in His teachings. But most important His identity. If you alter Christ's identity, then the life that He came to give is negated. The whole message of the Gospel and its value is altered and diminished.

Paul described this "other Jesus" in 2 Corinthians chapter eleven. He gave one of his biggest warnings to Christians who were in great danger of having their mind's corrupted from the simplicity that is in Jesus. The "counterfeit Jesus" of that day (Gnosticism and Galatianism) threated the early churches and was condemed and warned of in 1 John, Galations and Collosians.

This still goes on today.


In the Christian Science religion Mrs. Eddy declared in Science and Health page 152, "The Christian who believes in the First Commandment is a monotheist. Thus he virtually unites with the Jew's belief in one God, and recognizes that Jesus Christ is NOT God as Jesus Christ Himself declares, but is the Son of God." She also wrote, "The spiritual Christ was infallible; Jesus, as a material manhood, was not Christ."

But in 1 John 4:3, John declares " Every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this that spirit of antichrist, whereof you have heard that is should come; and even now alread is it in the world. And in 1 john 2:22 "Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and Son.



Jehovah Witnesses claim........"the true Scriptures speak of God's Son, The word, as "a god." He is a "mighty god" but not the Almighty God, who is Jehovah (The Truth Shall Make You Free, p. 47)
....."in other words, he was the first and direct creation of Jehovah God (The Kindom Is at Hand, pp. 46,47,49)


continued..........

[phins fan]

..........

The founder of JW's, Charles Taze Russell described his Jesus as having been Michael the Archangel, shedding his angelic nature, and appearing in the world as a perfect man (Studies in the Scriptures, Vo. 5, p. 84) For the JW's Jesus is an angel who became a man. He is a god, but he is not God the Son, second Person of the Trinity. The concept of the Trinity is considered "unreasonable" by alot of these groups. JW's say it is "unreasonable" to believe in a "three-headed god"..... (but look at H20......one element but three forms, water, steam and ice, or even me as a person, father to my daughters, myself, and son to my dad...three different "persons" but in one body)

The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the Word, God the only begotten one (john 1:18).....and no less than the great "I AM of Exodus 3:14 (compare John 8:58) ........the prophesies in the Old Testament called him Emanuel, which means "God, with us"

As with Mrs Eddy's Christ.....the christ of JW's is a second god with an angelic background...which qualifies him as "another Jesus" in the context of Paul's propecy.



Mormons, which differs from both the Scientist and JW's, claim that their god is one among many gods. In there writings Key to the Science of Theology, page 44, it is stated, "Each of these gods, including Jesus Christ and his Father, being in possession of not merely an organized spirit, but a glorious body of flesh and bones...."
The Mormons have a full pantheon of gods. Jesus who before His incarnation was the spirit-brother of Lucifer, was also a polygamist, the husband of the Marys and Martha, who was rewarded for his faithfulness by becoming the ruler of this earth. These ideas clearly classify the Jesus of the Mormon's as "another Jesus", with whom truly redeemed men have nothing in common, even though he be arrayed as an angle of light and with all the credentials of the angel Moroni's angelic proclamation to Joseph Smith, the prophet of the restored Christian religion.


It would be possible to go on and on listing other cult systems but the
bottom line, if you take away the diety of Jesus.......say that He was not God/ made man.....you take away the whole plan.....the ultimate sacrafice of His death on the cross.....what good what it have done for God to send an angel or other creation to die for us.....

It would be like sending someone else to tell someone you were sorry for a wrongdoing......it wouldnt be very effective.


There a alot of different beliefs within the structure of the modern day churches, from denomenation to denomenation.....most dont have much affect on the grand scheme of things ....but most Christian churches follow the belief that we are all fallen, and our sins seperate us from our Maker. But He loved us enough to sacrafice His life for us....to "bridge" the gap to Him......its a free gift, but we have to reach out and take it.

**************************************************

Note: I didnt post this to offend followers of the above mentioned leaders' beliefs......we all have our choice to believe or not to believe in whoever....they certainly wouldn't be as detrimental as groups like the cool-aid sippin' Jim Jones followers.....or the nike wearin' suicidal heavens gate group waitin on the hal-bot comet surfin' jesus.....but i just wanted to point out that the common thread within and biggest difference with the mainstream "christians" was that none of them believe that Jesus was/is God.

[gogators27]

..........

Mormons, which differs from both the Scientist and JW's, claim that their god is one among many gods. In there writings Key to the Science of Theology, page 44, it is stated, "Each of these gods, including Jesus Christ and his Father, being in possession of not merely an organized spirit, but a glorious body of flesh and bones...."
The Mormons have a full pantheon of gods. Jesus who before His incarnation was the spirit-brother of Lucifer, was also a polygamist, the husband of the Marys and Martha, who was rewarded for his faithfulness by becoming the ruler of this earth. These ideas clearly classify the Jesus of the Mormon's as "another Jesus", with whom truly redeemed men have nothing in common, even though he be arrayed as an angle of light and with all the credentials of the angel Moroni's angelic proclamation to Joseph Smith, the prophet of the restored Christian religion.



phins- just so you are aware, this info you have posted about my religion has a lot of mistakes. I was wondering, did you do this research yourself or did you cut and paste this from somone elses statements?

If you ask any "Mormon" or if you study into it yourself, you will find the what we believe: Pay attention to our very first article of Faith......

The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints


1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.


2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.


3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.


4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.


5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.


6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.


7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.


8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.


9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.


10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.


11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.


12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.


13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

[Bill McIntyre]

There are many modern "minority" religious movements.....some we can call "cults". By using the word cult, i mean nothing derogatory to any group, but define it as any religious group which differs SIGNIFICANTLY in some or more respects as to belief or practice of the religious groups which are regarded as the "norm" in our culture. A cult may also be seen as a group of people gathered around a specific person or person's mis-interpretation of the Bible. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses are, for the most part, follower's of the interpretations of Charles T. Russell and J.F. Rutherford. The Christ Scientist of today is a disciple of Mary Baker Eddy and her interpretations. The Mormons, by their own admission, adhere to those found in the writings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.....and like many others contain many major deviatons from HISTORIC Christianity. Yet, paradoxically, they continue to insist that they are entitled to be classified as Christians.


I don't find that any more paradoxical than Protestant fundamentalists who insist that Catholics are not Christians.

What we call the Catholic church today is directly descended from the original Christians. Protestants decided they were doing it wrong and broke away from the original church using their own interpretation. More recently, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons decided both Protestants and Catholics had it wrong and broke away, using their own interpretations.

I may find the theology of one group more ludicrous than that of another, but its all theology, and not subject to proof.

All of them are based on faith and interpretation, and none of them has a corner on truth.

[Bill McIntyre]

phins, you are as full of shit as a Christmas goose.

I have to hand it to you, through sheer volumn of nonsense you can beat almost anyone down. You pick the passages from the bible that you want to hang your hat on and interpret them the way you want to interpret them, and thus decide what true Christianity is. It doesn't matter that someone else emphasizes different passages or interprets them differently, your way is the only way.

Why the hell don't you just practice your own brand of magic and let others practice their own without badgering them?

[phins fan]

[QUOTE=Bill McIntyre]

you can beat almost anyone down.


you just shot yourself with your own gun

[Bill McIntyre]

[QUOTE=Bill McIntyre]

you can beat almost anyone down.


you just shot yourself with your own gun

Hell no, I could never beat you down, and neither could most people. You would just quote more pages of scripture.

[zenspearo]

I read for ten seconds before my mind flashes: this thread is a waste of time.

Of course phins fan probably has some scripture ready to quote to say that I'm going to hell...

[Bill McIntyre]

I read for ten seconds before my mind flashes: this thread is a waste of time.

Of course phins fan probably has some scripture ready to quote to say that I'm going to hell...

Exactly. No one could read all the way through that drivel. He will not discuss anything in his own words, but just endlessly quotes scripture to prove some nebulous point, and everyone's eyes have glazed over by then.

And in this case, the entire point is to tell others that their version of Christianity is not as good as his.

Its not enough to tell Muslims, Buddhists, etc. that they have it wrong. Other people who call themselves Christian must also be straightened out too.

Gimme a break!

[peterv]

Zen, i agree with you.

Scripture has some gems of faith, wisdom, moral guidance, words of comfort ... and some made-up BS as filler material.

Read with an open mind.

If Lobster Tails and Pulled-Pork BBQ are "treif" ....
what else did they get wrong ?

[Gradyman]

Guys this type of banter will not accomplish anything. Phins was giving an educated answer to Steves original question of Christianity differences...if you're not into the answer simply go to another post, if you don't beleive his answer say so and move on...but it could be said a little nicer...
Bill...remember the fruit!

[Bill McIntyre]

Guys this type of banter will not accomplish anything. Phins was giving an educated answer to Steves original question of Christianity differences.

Exactly what did his original post accomplish beyond drowning us in scripture to establish that other people who thought they were Christians are actually members of cults?

To some of you diehard members of your own cults, that may seem fruitful, but to others it just seems mean-spirited.

[phins fan]

but to others it just seems mean-spirited.






again, shot with your own gun

[Bill McIntyre]

You've learned a new comeback now. Great.

But you always avoid the question or comment. In this case, do you think its mean spirited to try to put down other versions of Christianity, or not?

After all, those people call themselves Christians. How about a little Christian charity.

[Bill McIntyre]

From an insider's POV, it may seem like an important argument, but from an outsiders POV, it looks something like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Christians telling each other that they are not Christians- really nice.

And BTW, do you think Catholics are Christians? I think my wife has a right to know what you think of her as long as you are putting down other self-described Christians.

[Old Bateman]

From an insider's POV, it may seem like an important argument, but from an outsiders POV, it looks something like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Christians telling each other that they are not Christians- really nice.

And BTW, do you think Catholics are Christians? I think my wife has a right to know what you think of her as long as you are putting down other self-described Christians.

Bill,
Phins has given you some good information here. He is not demanding that you believe it, only offering it to you.

The Truth is, these versions of Christianity conflict in the most important area of doctrine there is, ie Salvation. They offer different ways to get to heaven. But they all boil down to 2 methods: Faith in Jesus Christ alone, or human works (sometimes added to faith, but still dependant on your own efforts to get you to heaven).
If you choose to blow off the information you receive, - fine. No skin off our noses (which is unfortunate for me! :D ) But considering the consequences of your decision, I would think you would want to investigate it on your own.

[Bill McIntyre]

And so what should I tell my wife?

[phins fan]

...tell her you love her

[Bill McIntyre]

...tell her you love her

She already knows that. What I want to know is whether you think Catholics are Christians.

[jackpine savage]

talking religion gets you nothing but trouble

[Bill McIntyre]

While I waited for phin's verdict on Catholicism, I whiled away my time by Googling Martin Luther. Here is a concise summary from one of the hits.

Martin Luther dealt the symbolic blow that began the Reformation when he nailed his Ninety-Five Theses to the door of the Wittenberg Church. That document contained an attack on papal abuses and the sale of indulgences by church officials.

But Luther himself saw the Reformation as something far more important than a revolt against ecclesiastical abuses. He believed it was a fight for the gospel. Luther even stated that he would have happily yielded every point of dispute to the Pope, if only the Pope had affirmed the gospel.

And at the heart of the gospel, in Luther's estimation, was the doctrine of justification by faith--the teaching that Christ's own righteousness is imputed to those who believe, and on that ground alone, they are accepted by God.

So I'm trying to save him time looking up a bunch of biblical passages. The way I read that Luther thing, its the question of works vs. faith, and Catholics want works. Is that correct?

And if so, does phin think that the interpretation of the gospel by the church for over 1500 years was less valid than the one by Luther at that late date? And therefore, Catholics are not Christians even though the only Christian church for 1500 years said they were?

Or am I assuming too much, and phin has found a way for Catholics to be Christians too? Since he brought up this subject of cults that are not really Christian even though they think they are, I think its a fair question.

Edit- interpretation of the meaning of the gospel aside, I am more comfortable with a church that requires people to do good to others rather than just focusing on personal salvation of their own asses.

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill,
Phins has given you some good information here. He is not demanding that you believe it, only offering it to you.


While I await one of you having the decency to tell me whether my Catholic wife is Christian, I'll answer that statement.

Does he have the right to demand that anyone who disagrees keep his mouth shut?

When I advance some heretical socialist idea such as stating that Social security is a good idea, or that the minimum wage should be increased, I'm just giving everyone good information, not demanding that they believe it.

But I damn sure don't expect everyone to keep quiet if they disagree, and they don't. Why should someone's idea on religion be any different?

If you don't want your religious ideas open to discussion, then don't post them on the internet. We have PMs available here if all you want to do is speak with people with whom you agree.

[Gamble]

Guys this type of banter will not accomplish anything. Phins was giving an educated answer to Steves original question of Christianity differences...if you're not into the answer simply go to another post, if you don't beleive his answer say so and move on...but it could be said a little nicer...
Bill...remember the fruit!

If he was giving an educated answer to Steves question he wouldn't have posted so many untruths about religions he knows nothing about. So there for, if your going to post something about a specific religion make sure you have a clue what your posting. Don't just start cutting and pasting someone else's words and calling it fact. There is TOOOO much of that in religion as it is.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

While I await one of you having the decency to tell me whether my Catholic wife is Christian, I'll answer that statement.

Does he have the right to demand that anyone who disagrees keep his mouth shut?

When I advance some heretical socialist idea such as stating that Social security is a good idea, or that the minimum wage should be increased, I'm just giving everyone good information, not demanding that they believe it.

But I damn sure don't expect everyone to keep quiet if they disagree, and they don't. Why should someone's idea on religion be any different?

If you don't want your religious ideas open to discussion, then don't post them on the internet. We have PMs available here if all you want to do is speak with people with whom you agree.
Bill no person but your wife can decide if she is a christian, it simple if you believe Jesus is our Lord and savior your a christian. No church can sanction you or decide if your allowed to be, its a gift of grace . I don't understand all the theology but I will pray with anyone who prays to God in Christs name.

[Gamble]

Well said!

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill no person but your wife can decide if she is a christian, it simple if you believe Jesus is our Lord and savior your a christian. No church can sanction you or decide if your allowed to be, its a gift of grace . I don't understand all the theology but I will pray with anyone who prays to God in Christs name.

You're hedging. Phin said that Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Christian Scientists couldn't decide that they were Christians as long as they followed the doctrine of their churches. They have decided that they are Christians, but he says they can't be because that doctrine is unsound.

So if Catholics follow their church doctrine, can they be Christians?

I'm not asking if they can be Christians if they decide to do it your way. I'm asking if they can be Christians if they believe in what their church tells them is right.

[Gamble]

Bill, I think the question is does God really care what rules a church makes? I think he listed a few to follow and I just keep those in mind. I don't pay any attention to rules made by man in the name of God. I know what is right and wrong and how I should treat my fellow man. I don't need a "man of God" to tell me that.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

You're hedging. Phin said that Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Christian Scientists couldn't decide that they were Christians as long as they followed the doctrine of their churches. They have decided that they are Christians, but he says they can't be because that doctrine is unsound.

So if Catholics follow their church doctrine, can they be Christians?

I'm not asking if they can be Christians if they decide to do it your way. I'm asking if they can be Christians if they believe in what their church tells them is right.
No I am not hedging I am saying I don't know enough to criticize anybody else I just know one simple truth that Christ is my savior and if you believe that you are indeed a Christian right or wrong about anything else, and truly believing that I realize that I am far from perfect in my understanding and relying on prayer more than following doctrines.

[Gamble]

Damn brother that was a good one too!!!!! :thumps:

[Ironhed]

Bill no person but your wife can decide if she is a christian, it simple if you believe Jesus is our Lord and savior your a christian. No church can sanction you or decide if your allowed to be, its a gift of grace . I don't understand all the theology but I will pray with anyone who prays to God in Christs name.
amen to that statement. Bill don't get too heated up, phins is not trying to single anyone out. he is just sharing some of his knowledge to the best of his ability. He is pretty well versed in the bible from what I have seen. I know I am not any expert on the subject either and try to speak from a good heart. sometimes when we type stuff on here it sometimes sounds or seems wrong after you read it from someone elses perspective. I am guilty of that at times too.

[Gradyman]

Bill,

I don't know whay Phins hasn't answered you, but Catholics are Christians and have come "miles" in the doctrines that once held the church in the dark ages. They have a great works mentality and also beleive in the fact works can't "do it" alone...they know the trinity of God and beleive Jesus is God in the flesh of man...they're in!! :thumps:

From what I can tell your wife is a saint!!! :D It's you I'm praying for!! :D

[mnguy]

Its funny that some people call what I'm going to call the neo-christians(LDS, JW, Christian Scientists) non-christians. If you look at the spread and adoption of protestantism, it was politically driven insofar as it was religiously driven.

Luther was a German and his ideas spread quickly after he posted them up on the Wittenberg abbey doors(apparently the politics/religion forum of his day ;) ). The various German princes, small monarchies tied together by a common germanic root, saw his ideas as a great way to split with the RC empire and not owe them fealty or loyalty. They all took up the protestant banner and gave it the jump start it needed to take off. Episcopaleans, or Church of England, got its start because Henry VIII wanted an annulment to his marriage so he could marry some other woman and lop her head off later. The RC church wouldn't give it to him so he said to hell with it and split.

I'm reminded of a certain parable Jesus taught by all of this. Its something to the effect of removing the plank from your own eye before you attempt to remove the speck out of the eye of your brother. I don't know the exact gospel, chapter and verse, but I'm sure someone does.

[phins fan]

Bill,

I don't know whay Phins hasn't answered you, but Catholics are Christians and have come "miles" in the doctrines that once held the church in the dark ages. They have a great works mentality and also beleive in the fact works can't "do it" alone...they know the trinity of God and beleive Jesus is God in the flesh of man...they're in!! :thumps:

From what I can tell your wife is a saint!!! :D It's you I'm praying for!! :D

Gradyman,
:thumps:
i was hoping you would answer! well said

[Old Bateman]

While I await one of you having the decency to tell me whether my Catholic wife is Christian, I'll answer that statement.

Does he have the right to demand that anyone who disagrees keep his mouth shut?

When I advance some heretical socialist idea such as stating that Social security is a good idea, or that the minimum wage should be increased, I'm just giving everyone good information, not demanding that they believe it.

Bill, it is not a denomination that determines whether or not a person is a Christian. I know plenty of Catholics that are true Christians, and many Baptists (my denomination) that I doubt are. Being a "Christ-one" (original designation), means you belong to Christ, that God is your Father John 1:12. (Read the entire context!)
The term "Religion" is from 2 Latin words that mean "to bind back". It is referring to man's attempt to bind himself back to God, after he has sinned, and separated himself from God. The only way to do this according to scripture, is to accept Christ's full payment for our sin.
BTW, do it matter what any of us "think" as far as your salvation (or your wife's). When you stand before God, are you going to say; But Phins, and Old Bateman said this!"
Each of us is responsible for our own decision.

[Gradyman]

Bill, it is not a denomination that determines whether or not a person is a Christian. I know plenty of Catholics that are true Christians, and many Baptists (my denomination) that I doubt are. Being a "Christ-one" (original designition), means you belong to Christ, that God is your Father John 1:12. (Read the entire context!)
The term "Religion" is from 2 Latin words that mean "to bind back". It is refering to man's attempt to bind himself back to God, after he has sinned, and seperated himself from God. The only way to do this according to scripture, is to accept Christ's full payment for our sin.


So well said :thumps:

[mcjaret]

Well, Bill, when we get to Hell, they'll probably put us in the same room, smoke filled of course, forcing me to eternally hear Michael Moore speeches while you listen Rush. We'll then have to argue over what's said, doomed to never realize that we aren't hearing the same thing. The beer keg will be empty and the toilet backed up, too.

May the Flying Spaghetti Monster save us both!

[Bill McIntyre]

Well, Bill, when we get to Hell, they'll probably put us in the same room, smoke filled of course, forcing me to eternally hear Michael Moore speeches while you listen Rush. We'll then have to argue over what's said, doomed to never realize that we aren't hearing the same thing. The beer keg will be empty and the toilet backed up, too.

May the Flying Spaghetti Monster save us both!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Amen brother.

[Surface Tension]

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor. 5:21

It's a pretty good deal if you ask me........

Dave

[Bill McIntyre]

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor. 5:21

It's a pretty good deal if you ask me........

Dave

I hope you realize how meaningless that bible quotation is to those of who don't have "the gift of faith."

If everyone believed every word in the bible, we wouldn't be having these discussions.

Well, I take that back. There would still be all the arguments between those who differed in their interpretation, or differed in which verses to emphasize, but at least it would reduce the discussions somewhat.

Edit: The first post to this thread is a perfect illustation of my last sentence. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Christian Scientists would have no quarrel with your bible quotation, but phins fan started the thread just to point out they were cults, and not really Christian.