This should be interesting

[Marcus]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061208/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/detainee_abuse_6

[stickitfishy]

If yes to your poll means Rumnutz should be held accountable, HELL YES! He should be tried just like Saddam, by the Iraqi's!

[100days-a-year]

Lessee,...
caught on a battlefield actually participating without any of the conditions applicable to deserve Geneva convention protections....

continued recalcitrance to inform or assist....

I say let the troops what caught them "interrogate" them on the spot.Then send them to Gitmo for some scopalomine/pentathol therapy along with any needed pyschotherapy.

It's a new war with a new enemy who is smart enough to use our system and the sympathetic Neville Chamberlain crowd to dissuade the use of even the most lenient forms of interrogation.

Not that I was a fan of Rumsfeld's micromanagement.A topic worthy of a seperate thread.

[Megabeast]

If they are going to behead our prisoners and put it on the net/Al Jazeera, IMO anything goes. Split their peckers like a banana and feed it to his fellow towel head for all I care.

[riplipper]

:lol: I am with you Mega

[Gradyman]

War is war. Let's not be naive and think we're the only ones who interrogate in a violent fashion...I trust that if there was a different method to get information it would be used and probably is...it doesn't make torture a good thing, just a necessary part of war that no one likes, except maybe a twisted few who administer it.

What next ACLU, are our spy satellites going to land us in court for the invasion of our enemy’s privacy???

[jackpine savage]

What about those suspects tortured who have turned out to be innocent? Is it ok to torture them and when we find out they did nothing to send them off with an apology?

[GRIM REEFER]

What about those suspects tortured who have turned out to be innocent? Is it ok to torture them and when we find out they did nothing to send them off with an apology?

At least they were sent off and not beheaded.

[GRIM REEFER]

If yes to your poll means Rumnutz should be held accountable, HELL YES! He should be tried just like Saddam, by the Iraqi's!

:rolleyes: I hope your joking

You know, Weather it was interrogation or just having fun. Who cares
Why is there so many fags crying about the poor terrorists

[stickitfishy]

When the Geneva convention gets blatantly circumnavigated, it makes the U.S. much more hated than we already are. It disgusts me to see the current administration think they are above ALL laws, they are not. They should be dealt with the same way the world deals with all the rest of its scum. All Rumsfeld has done is get more people killed and make more terrorists with his blatant disregard for international law.

[stickitfishy]

:rolleyes: I hope your joking

You know, Weather it was interrogation or just having fun. Who cares
Why is there so many fags crying about the poor terrorists

What an incredibly idiotic statement!

[jackpine savage]

:rolleyes: I hope your joking

You know, Weather it was interrogation or just having fun. Who cares
Why is there so many fags crying about the poor terrorists
I asked what about those who were later found to have nothing to do with terrorism but were tortured. What do you say to them. I am not crying about those who are guilty but there have been quite a lot of examples of the US and our allies capturing and torturing people who were later found to be innocent. You may laugh it off but I see a reckelss policy that creates more terrrorists than it destroys.

[bgbill]

If yes to your poll means Rumnutz should be held accountable, HELL YES! He should be tried just like Saddam, by the Iraqi's!

You are a moron.

[GRIM REEFER]

What an incredibly idiotic statement!

So what are you saying, Are you one of the fags who feel sorry for the animals who chop off the heads of our soldiers?
Now, I felt no pity for the poor little terrorists who were made to lay naked on top of each other. If that make me an idiot, whatever :rolleyes:

[Bill McIntyre]

So what are you saying, Are you one of the fags who feel sorry for the animals who chop off the heads of our soldiers?
Now, I felt no pity for the poor little terrorists who were made to lay naked on top of each other. If that make me an idiot, whatever :rolleyes:

See post #12 by jackpine savage.

[Marcus]

If we treat them the same way they treat us...we are no better than them. We can arguably beat them in brutality, but in doing so we are taking steps backwards for the human species.

[bgbill]

If we treat them the same way they treat us...we are no better than them. We can arguably beat them in brutality, but in doing so we are taking steps backwards for the human species.

We are not treating them the same way they treat us, do any of the towel heads give our Soldiers a bible and a prayer rug, and a special diet to conform to our religion?

Have we ever cut someones head off?

[100days-a-year]

Jack... name a few terror suspects tortured and later freed due to innocence.As prevalent as some would make it sound there should be no lack of documentation as to who and what methods were used.I'll concede it's probly happened,I don't thinks it's often and certainly not without merit.

I'm against innocents being tortured and as Marcus said pure brutality is pointless and could reduce us to thier level(except for that whole all Jews must die/kids make great suicide bombers/civilians are the target of choice)mindset.But in a great many instances these jerk-offs are foreign nationals picked up on a battlefield with guns.I err on the side of protecting my troops not anyone else.

[jeffcroci]

actually brett, take a look back to Viet nam, I believe there were a good number instances of american soldiers beheading people. so yes we do. let this bullshit in Iraq go on long enough and it will probably happen there as well. what will you say then? after 60 days in combat 99% of soldiers suffer PERMANENT psychological problems, the remaining 1 % were sociopaths to begin with. Its so easy for people to sit behind a computer and "Blah blah blah oh yeah kill them all! you guys are fags, torture them!!!!" You should all enlist as infantry men, I know the military is in need of new recruits, or are your convictions only strong enough for harsh words on the internet?


jeff

[jackpine savage]

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2006/10/12/guantanamo_detainees_go_to_afghanistan/

http://bingaman.senate.gov/news/stlvrecord.cfm?id=252668 (this from a US Senators website)

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=1997083&page=1 (In this one even US officials claim they were innocent)

[mcjaret]

Stickitfishy:

According to the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, 12 August 1949, "Persons who, without having complied with the conditions prescribed by the laws of war for recognition as belligerents, are when captured, not to be treated as prisoners of war and may be tried and sentenced to execution or imprisonment. Persons in the foregoing categories who have attempted, committed, or conspired to commit hostile or belligerent acts are subject to the extreme penalty of death because of the the danger inherent in their conduct."

By the way, this convention contemplates military commissions (3 officers) performing the trials.

Protections against physical violence and intimindation are afforded to actual POW's, not unlawful combatants. "No physical or mental torture, not any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever."

So exactly how is the Geneva Convention being trashed by hard interrogation techniques against terrorists?

Not saying its right, but its not a Geneva problem.

[bgbill]

actually brett, take a look back to Viet nam, I believe there were a good number instances of american soldiers beheading people. so yes we do. let this bullshit in Iraq go on long enough and it will probably happen there as well. what will you say then? after 60 days in combat 99% of soldiers suffer PERMANENT psychological problems, the remaining 1 % were sociopaths to begin with. Its so easy for people to sit behind a computer and "Blah blah blah oh yeah kill them all! you guys are fags, torture them!!!!" You should all enlist as infantry men, I know the military is in need of new recruits, or are your convictions only strong enough for harsh words on the internet?


jeff

Show some verifiable information on US Soldiers beheading people.

I am 41 years old, do you really think the Military would let me enlist? :rolleyes:

[Megabeast]

If we treat them the same way they treat us...we are no better than them. We can arguably beat them in brutality, but in doing so we are taking steps backwards for the human species.

Who cares? I mean really... who cares? This is war, it's not a popularity contest. Why should we fight the cleaner fight, so that people like you can hold your head high and say, "They might've beheaded our friends/family (on TV, which means they were PUBLICLY EXECUTED), but we fought the good fight, so we're the good guys!" Who gives a flying f*** if you're the good guy or not. It's all based on your perspective anyway.

If they don't have to follow the rules, neither should we. It makes no sense to. It's like fighting a boxing match where the opponent keeps hitting you in the nuts and the ref can't/won't do anything about it. Are you going to keep fighting the fair fight, or are you going to crush him in the nuts right back?

[Vandolin]

All this sympathy for these terrorists and those who protect them is sad. That mindset is a disease. Idiology is the study of idiots!

[jackpine savage]

noone here is sympathetic to terrorism, just that torture ends up costing our society more than any benefit it derives from it. Even Israel doesn't allow its military to torture suspects. The only way to defeat terrorists is to take away the public symapthy they have been able to generate amongst Muslims in the Middle East, not going to be able to defeat them solely with the military.

[Marcus]

Who cares? I mean really... who cares? This is war, it's not a popularity contest. Why should we fight the cleaner fight, so that people like you can hold your head high and say, "They might've beheaded our friends/family (on TV, which means they were PUBLICLY EXECUTED), but we fought the good fight, so we're the good guys!" Who gives a flying f*** if you're the good guy or not. It's all based on your perspective anyway.

If they don't have to follow the rules, neither should we. It makes no sense to. It's like fighting a boxing match where the opponent keeps hitting you in the nuts and the ref can't/won't do anything about it. Are you going to keep fighting the fair fight, or are you going to crush him in the nuts right back?

How would you like to see your wife and kids brutally raped and burned/tortured to death while you were helpless to do anything. If you don't think that can't happen if we proceed down that path, you are naive.

[bgbill]

How would you like to see your wife and kids brutally raped and burned/tortured to death while you were helpless to do anything. If you don't think that can't happen if we proceed down that path, you are naive.


You really shouldn't smoke so much crack, it is making you paranoid. ;)

[junior]

When you get too lazy to consider the ramifications of the issues, why even express an opinion? Some people sound like it's been a looong time since they've had a well developed thought concerning Iraq. At least the administration that tossed this little shindig of a war together are admitting that they have always been pretty much clueless. But, here on spearboard we are blessed with a wealth of muslim scholars:rolleyes: Once again, the tough guys sitting in their boxers behind a computer screen talk about killing people on the other side of the planet...how hilarious:D

[Marcus]

Show some verifiable information on US Soldiers beheading people.



My Dad's friend was in 'nam and told me he saw soldiers playing football with an enemy's head they cut off.
I seriously doubt the government would allow such things to be published.

[bgbill]

My Dad's friend was in 'nam and told me he saw soldiers playing football with an enemy's head they cut off.
I seriously doubt the government would allow such things to be published.


My uncles friends next door neighbor knew a guy who knew a guy who's brother said the same thing too, so I am sure it happens all the time.

I guess we just don't film it when it happens like in the Nick Berg case.

Why aren't we playing football with a terrorist's head?

[Marcus]

So you rational thinking guys that feel that torturing POWs is good should actually talk to some of our own POWs. I'm sure that they'll all agree with you. :rolleyes:

[bgbill]

So you rational thinking guys that feel that torturing POWs is good should actually talk to some of our own POWs. I'm sure that they'll all agree with you. :rolleyes:

What do you consider torture and what does the Geneva Convention consider torture?

Making a guy wear panties on his head, is not torture, having a dog bark at him is not torture.

In all of the pictures I saw from Abu Grahab, none of them would be what I consider torture, yet a lot of the people involved with it are in Prison over it.

Kidnapping people and cutting their head off is torture.

I say screw em' and do whatever it takes to protect the US, if it takes executing every raghead on the planet, then that is fine with me.

[Marcus]

What do you consider torture and what does the Geneva Convention consider torture?


...from the article.

"men were beaten, suspended upside down from the ceiling by chains, urinated on, shocked, sexually humiliated, burned, locked inside boxes and subjected to mock executions."

Any of these bother you?

[Ed Walker]

After seeing 100% innocents beheaded by terrorists, I do find it very difficult to feel sorry for jailed alledged terror suspects being uncomfortable. You do have to trust that at least a majority of them were put in that prison for a reason.

[Bill McIntyre]

You do have to trust that at least a majority of them were put in that prison for a reason.

I guess that's my problem, a lack of trust. And even if I have trust, is it OK to torture the minority? If they were not insurgents before, they and their families will be in the future.

[Bill McIntyre]

So you rational thinking guys that feel that torturing POWs is good should actually talk to some of our own POWs. I'm sure that they'll all agree with you. :rolleyes:

I recall McCain talking about it. He said that when he was being tortured, what gave him strength was knowing that we were better than that.

While I knew a couple of guys before the war that ended up in the Hanoi Hilton, I only knew one after he came back- he was in a squadron with me. He had been in there 7 years and we didn't even know he was alive. The insurance company had paid the death benefit to his wife, and it was a big surprise to everyone when he got off the plane.

But the subject of his treatment never even came up, at least in conversation with me. I've often wished I had tried to draw him out on the subject, but its not exactly the sort of thing that you want to press a guy on.

[bgbill]

Its like saying that even if everyone executed in the US wasn't actually guilty of the crime, he probably did something.

I agree, that they probably did something or were going to do something they should have been executed for anyway, it is about time you saw things my way.

What do you think will happen when the homicide bombers come to the US, and the terrorsists get a nuclear bomb, or at least a dirty bomb?

I wish these people would be more concerned about the safety of the US and it's citizens, than the "Rights" of these insurgents.

[Bill McIntyre]

I agree, that they probably did something or were going to do something they should have been executed for anyway, it is about time you saw things my way.

What do you think will happen when the homicide bombers come to the US, and the terrorsists get a nuclear bomb, or at least a dirty bomb?

I wish these people would be more concerned about the safety of the US and it's citizens, than the "Rights" of these insurgents.

Aw hell, Bret, I edited that out so as not to muddy the waters, but you caught me.:)

What will happen when suicide bombers come to the US and terrorists get a dirty bomb will be really shitty, but it will happen sooner rather than later if we are regarded at torturers. It will also happen sooner rather than later because we invaded Iraq rather than going after the people responsible for 9/11.

Just think how much homeland security could have been improved if we had spent all that money on it rather than pouring it down a rat hole in Iraq.

Torturing a few more Iraqis won't do a thing to help.

[Marcus]

Just think how much homeland security could have been improved if we had spent all that money on it rather than pouring it down a rat hole in Iraq.

Torturing a few more Iraqis won't do a thing to help.

No sh*t! We could have made ourselves practically impenetrable with the money that's been spent on Iraq.

The innocent ones that were tortured will certainly tell everyone he knows of the atrocity. Because it's such a good story...everyone will tell everyone else. That's a lot of people that will hold the US in contempt when it didn't have to be that way. The alternative is very good...POWs returning saying the US treated them well while in captivity.

BTW, I harbor no sympathy for any terrorists captured. I don't know them and don't care to, I've got my own problems to deal with. My only concern is the advancement of the US as a respected country. If we aren't setting an example for how human beings should treat each other then how exactly are we advancing as a species? Torturing people is going backwards. Maybe some of your would've rather lived in the middle ages? Burning people at the stake?

[stickitfishy]

So what are you saying, Are you one of the fags who feel sorry for the animals who chop off the heads of our soldiers?
Now, I felt no pity for the poor little terrorists who were made to lay naked on top of each other. If that make me an idiot, whatever :rolleyes:

Step outside your closed mind for a minute and look at the big picture. What do you think the WORLD thinks when they see us disregard the Geneva Convention? They hate us more, which brings about more terrorists and more threats. Maybe punishing the few, who thought they were above ALL laws, would look good in the eyes of the WORLD and we wouldn't have so many threats today. Pretty simple, eh?

[stickitfishy]

You are a moron.

Uh oh, you done did it now!
Did anyone ask the dumb, redneck mod for his opinion?

[stickitfishy]

There are over a billion muslims in the world and about 300 million Americans. The average muslim is more fanatical about their religion than our extreme fanatics. A muslim is considered a martyr to die for their cause. Now since we've already pissed off 1 billion muslims, how many more martyrs do you think we have made while treating some of them the way we have? Where do you think all the insurgents in Iraq come from?

[stickitfishy]

And so dipshit doesn't put words into my mouth, I do not sympathize with the terrorists! I just know that treating them the way they treat us will only bring about more terrorists.

[Bill McIntyre]

C'mon guys, no name calling.

Everyone who disagrees with me is obviously a moron, but that's obvious without my calling him one.:)

[aaron proffitt]

There are over a billion muslims in the world and about 300 million Americans. The average muslim is more fanatical about their religion than our extreme fanatics. A muslim is considered a martyr to die for their cause. Now since we've already pissed off 1 billion muslims, how many more martyrs do you think we have made while treating some of them the way we have? Where do you think all the insurgents in Iraq come from?


So appeasment is the answer. Do you guys not understand the ONLY thing the typical mid-east mindset understands is brute force ? And great that they number in the billlions and the fact that they set on top of the most sought after natural resource in the world.Yet,they still have 3rd world conditions in their countries.Why ? Cause they are ignorant cretins who love nothing better than to keep a boot on the neck of someone else.Sorry,but in my experience...this has been the case.

[elgringopelon]

You know it's really weird that everyone is calling each other names and getting mad because this person cares about torturing terrorist, and that one doesn't give a damn, but the link talks about allowing these suspected terrorist, or whatever you want to call them, to sue us. F that. Why would we open ourselves up like that to the ENEMY?

My prediction: This case will be quickly dismissed.

[RippA]

Well, since we can't piss on them, yell at them, let our women look at their tiny wieners, or dress them up like buffalo bill maybe we could get them to talk by cutting our own heads off? Yeah that might get them to spill their guts, or we dress them up as 14 year olds and R. Kelly loose.

[jfjf]

War is war. Let's not be naive and think we're the only ones who interrogate in a violent fashion...I trust that if there was a different method to get information it would be used and probably is...it doesn't make torture a good thing, just a necessary part ?



Yes I trust them.. it must be the right thing to do .. They would only choose a course of actions if it was absolutely necessary... God, I wish I had this much trust and faith in our leaders. Where is the origin of such TRUST?

I must admit that my trust in the administration's omniscience was shaken a little as I watched our federal response as the black, bloated bodies float by in New Orleans. I just had to remind myself that the response was the only possible course of action. It was necessary. Why else would it have occurred, if there was a better way?

But back to the question as I see it: Is there ANYTHING that GOD doesn't want "our representatives" to inflict upon humans that we have captured?
:confused:

[Bill McIntyre]

But back to the question as I see it: Is there ANYTHING that GOD doesn't want "our representatives" to inflict upon humans that we have captured?
:confused:

Thanks for asking that. Since he is one of our more outspoken Christians, I really wanted to put it that way, but was trying not to be confrontational to our Christians for a change.

I'm obviously struggling with understanding this Christian morality thing, but I wondered if he was coming more from an Old Testament POV rather than a New Testament POV.

Edit: shit, I just remembered. The born-agains are not concerned with how they treat their fellow man (works) but only with their personal relationship with Christ.

What do these passages mean?

So by their fruits you will know them. [Matt. 7:20]

Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. [Matt. 25:40]

Torture at will.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

Speaking as a Christian torture is wrong so is Killing for other than self defense, but the difference between me an you liberals if I am going be forgiving its going to be to American boys first, and because of very few allegations and some ruff treatment,you are willing to make America look evil. Because the liber press woud call some of the things I went through in Boot Camp, as a younger brother, middle school football practice, and working in commercial construction torture. So when the press who would plaster all over the news if they had anything concrete, so show us some torture instead of some ruff treatment and humiliation I will be outraged, so far out of thousands of men invoved in a war, There are only a few reports of abuses and they are being prosecuted. So again your just America hating, it would be nice if you could see the real threat is radical muslims and not your own people.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

Which statement is more likely true Christains believe in torture at will, or liberals are self loathing America Haters?

[stickitfishy]

I'm going to be nice, ITSABOUTTIME, and not go on the offensive here. Instead, I will tell you to google cesium+protocol+cancer. I know one person who totally cured themselves with this treatment and were given less than 3 months to live after chemo failed them. You will find more when you google it. Any questions, ask away. Your boys deserve a father even if I don't agree with your views.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

thanks stickity but I'm done with my cancer thank God. I assume you mention this because of the post about Life Insurance and estate taxes. So I can happily report after 2 years of possitive test results I think I found a legitimate company willing to right a policy. I had surgery and it seems it was successful

[ITSABOUTTIME]

To keep my above posts from dragging this thread further in the gutter. I don't beleive Billy Mac hates America anymore than I know gradyman would ever treat a human in sadistic manner. But what we are talking about here is judging our leaders and soldiers on how they conduct warfare. If somebody can define fair rules go ahead. The President asked Congress to do this, they have not, the democratic controled congress can specificaly define what is and what is not torture do you think they will? I can not define what is and is not fair in war and dealing with terrorists but if anybody is gonna get the benefit of the doubt it will be our side. But I don't call ruff treatmment that ordinary men can survive and withtsand like the abuse you get in boot camp, hazing for a frat, or like my older brother and his friends routinely put me through should brand our soldirers and gov. officials as sadistic criminals.

[bgbill]

Uh oh, you done did it now!
Did anyone ask the dumb, redneck mod for his opinion?

Pizza Boy,

When you say stupid crap, you are going to be called on it.

Speaking of dumb, how dumb is a guy who at the age of 34 is delivering pizza and has some coffee machines? :rolleyes:

[bgbill]

...from the article.

"men were beaten, suspended upside down from the ceiling by chains, urinated on, shocked, sexually humiliated, burned, locked inside boxes and subjected to mock executions."

Any of these bother you?


With the way things get twisted around by the media, how do you know this really happened?

And to be honest, I could care less if it does.

[bgbill]

I'm going to be nice, ITSABOUTTIME, and not go on the offensive here. Instead, I will tell you to google cesium+protocol+cancer. I know one person who totally cured themselves with this treatment and were given less than 3 months to live after chemo failed them. You will find more when you google it. Any questions, ask away. Your boys deserve a father even if I don't agree with your views.


It is amazing that you are a pizza delivery boy, a gourmet coffee boy, an apprentice Union elecrician (will you wash out again?) and now you know how to cure cancer, you are the MFM.

[stickitfishy]

Hey BgBill, how's the lake house? Or is it, house you bought that sits in a lake? Hey everyone, use Bret Walley (Big Gay Bill) for all your GC needs, he was smart enough to buy a house that sits in a lake, he must do some mighty fine work.

[bgbill]

Hey BgBill, how's the lake house? Or is it, house you bought that sits in a lake? Hey everyone, use Bret Walley (Big Gay Bill) for all your GC needs, he was smart enough to buy a house that sits in a lake, he must do some mighty fine work.

How about you show us a picture of your house, and we will compare it to my houses, we will see who has a nicer house, do you even own a house?

You don't mind posting about threesomes with your wife, you shouldn't mind posting a picture of your house.

Obviously you are too stupid to understand the difference between a lake and a lot that holds water after extended periods of rain.

The drainage issues can and will be fixed on my lot, and the previous owner is responsible for the costs, because he didn't disclose the issue, but you still are going to be stupid.

HGow is your apprentice program going?

Isn't 34 a little old to be doing what kids out of high school do?

At least I am smart enough to be able to get my State Building Contractors license, and not be delivering pizza's.

[stickitfishy]

Don't get your panties in a wad Bret. Buying the lake house may have been a smart move for you. Just think, in the summer when the lake is full, you could lay in it with your big manly speargun and blast tadpoles and such. Using a PPD on a bullfrog could prove quite entertaining for you too.

[stickitfishy]

You don't mind posting about threesomes with your wife, you shouldn't mind posting a picture of your house.




Don't hate the playa Bret, hate the game! I'll post a pic of my house soon just for you!

[Marcus]

Big Gay Bill. :D You gotta admit Bret, that is pretty funny. :D

[Marcus]

Because the liber press woud call some of the things I went through in Boot Camp, as a younger brother, middle school football practice, and working in commercial construction torture. So when the press who would plaster all over the news if they had anything concrete, so show us some torture instead of some ruff treatment and humiliation I will be outraged, so far out of thousands of men invoved in a war, There are only a few reports of abuses and they are being prosecuted. So again your just America hating, it would be nice if you could see the real threat is radical muslims and not your own people.


Huh? You were hung upside down by chains, shocked, burned, and mock executed during boot camp, football practice, and commercial contruction? Ok...I've been shocked working commercial construction. :D

Some of you guys like to distort the line between what happens on the battlefield and what happens after the threat has been removed and the person is sitting in a jail cell.

American hating? I believe it's called America loving. A policy of torturing prisoners is likely to destroy America and what it stands for.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

If we have proof of those particular things happening to a prisoner and no one has been prosecuted I will concede something is wrong, but because they scare, make people extremely uncomfortable, humiliate them and even physically abuse(if one of our soldiers punched or kicked somebody who spat in his face) I wouldn't say they deserve to be prosecuted or called torturers.

[bgbill]

Big Gay Bill. :D You gotta admit Bret, that is pretty funny. :D

That is a good one coming from you, what are you going to do now that your wife moved to NC? :D

[ITSABOUTTIME]

Huh? You were hung upside down by chains, shocked, burned, and mock executed during boot camp, football practice, and commercial contruction? Ok...I've been shocked working commercial construction. :D

Some of you guys like to distort the line between what happens on the battlefield and what happens after the threat has been removed and the person is sitting in a jail cell.

American hating? I believe it's called America loving. A policy of torturing prisoners is likely to destroy America and what it stands for.
And yes one time my brother and his friends tied me up and hung me from a closet rod got distracted and left me when my parents came home a couple hours later I had kinda of a bad nosebleed and was quite upset. they deserved what they got but they were only minor sadists not torturers. :D

[jeffcroci]

will someone close this thread? this one in particular is really making me feel bad about being human

jeff :confused:

[Marcus]

If we have proof of those particular things happening to a prisoner and no one has been prosecuted I will concede something is wrong.

You don't really think the military will let proof of something like that get out? I'm rather suprised that those pictures actually got out. That was a big screw up. The only thing we will likely ever hear is testimony from the prisoners.

[Bill McIntyre]

God, how I hate America.

By definition, if you are liberal, you hate America.

Thanks for clarifying that for me.

[Gradyman]

I don't expect you all to understand where my trust comes from and that's OK. I beleive what the Bible says about leaders, hence my trust in them comes from trusting God. There are things we can't control and bigger "pictures" we only think we see, so in comes trust in God. Sounds simple but it's not, sounds naive, but it's not...I hate to leave you guys with no "real" explanation, but I don't feel it would accomplish anything more by sitting here for an hour or more typing it out. Rather then coming to me, as if I have the corner on God, why not go to Him directly and say something like "God, Grady confusses the Sh%%T out of me with His spirituality, he's wio*&^*$#&enj and just plain ma&%#*$%$*^$kaef...so could you please show me what the heck he sees in You concerning trust." Now, you may not get an answer pronto and He may lead to to read the Bible in a whole new light...I don't know how He will speak to you, but I know He will...thing is are you willing to listen and be open to a "Gods' eye view" & a whole new way of looking at things?

[Bill McIntyre]

I don't expect you all to understand where my trust comes from and that's OK. I beleive what the Bible says about leaders, hence my trust in them comes from trusting God.

That is absolutely breathtaking. Trusting God means that you trust political leaders too? Exactly what does the bible say about leaders that makes you think they can all be trusted?

On second thought, spare me.

It seems your focus on your relationship with God has blinded you to everything else on this earth.

Adolph Hitler, Idi Amin, Joseph Stalin, and Saddam Hussein were all leaders.

But maybe you haven't heard of them because they are not mentioned in the bible.

How about Pontius Pilate? Or better yet, how about King Herod? He wanted to kill all the babies including Jesus.

[stickitfishy]

Gradyman, it was because of reasoning like yours that Bush was re-elected. Even though u seem like a great guy, please change your reasoning for the next election!

[Gradyman]

I told you that you wouldn't understand...and nothing I would say would make you either...What I don't understand is how vehemently some of you attack someone who sees things differently then you when you are professing to be such understanding wise individuals...but, if it happened to Jesus it's gonna happen to me or any other person that sees things through scripture and a "God's eye view".

On a side note: we're leaving now for a few days of RR and I won't be online as much if at all...didn't want you all to think I'm giving you the cold shoulder of self righteousness or something...Sincerely, take care and have a great week!

[Bill McIntyre]

Gradyman, you always evade the question, saying we just can't understand.

Help me. How about those leaders I mentioned. Should we trust all leaders?

How about this quote from the bible?

"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Is there fine print somewhere. How does this apply to prisoners?

If you are going to make statements about things happening in the real world, its not fair to hide behind "I don't expect you to understand."

I don't get into your devotional threads because its all about the bible and your faith. But when you venture outside of that cocoon, we have a right to hear more from you than "take it on my faith."

[jfjf]

Wow I don't understand. I guess any arguements about abortion are completely over..since our leaders have made the current laws and we MUST accept them too.

I'm not attacking anyone or any religion, it just scares me when people seem to be able to shed personal responsibility, to play "follow-the-leader" and justify their trust in the actions of their leaders through some facet of an incomprehensible religious belief system.

[stickitfishy]

There are leaders and then there are followers!

[Spearchucker]

There are leaders and then there are followers!

and when they are hungry, they all order pizza!! :lol: :eek:








....Sorry stickit, left yourself wide open for that one.... :thumps:

[ITSABOUTTIME]

You don't really think the military will let proof of something like that get out? I'm rather suprised that those pictures actually got out. That was a big screw up. The only thing we will likely ever hear is testimony from the prisoners.
So let me get this straight we can decide our guys are brutal thugs because prisoners say so, but terrorists should get the benefit of our civillain legal system

[ITSABOUTTIME]

God, how I hate America.

By definition, if you are liberal, you hate America.

Thanks for clarifying that for me.
your welcome Bill

[Marcus]

So let me get this straight we can decide our guys are brutal thugs because prisoners say so, but terrorists should get the benefit of our civillain legal system

Nice how you managed to meld the words to imply that all the prisoners are terrorists and should be afforded the rights of innocent Americans.

Do you trust the government to do the right thing? Be free from scrutiny? Do you think we should torture everyone that is apprehended as a possible combatant? Exactly at what point and severity of torture to innocent people should we draw the line in the sand and say this is not ok? What are the ramifications of torturing innocent people? I'm certainly not suggesting that there are loads of innocents in Guantanamo, but I'd be confident in saying that there are probably many there.
BTW, I've no pity for the individuals who are truly terrorists bent on killing innocent people.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

Nice how you managed to meld the words to imply that all the prisoners are terrorists and should be afforded the rights of innocent Americans.

Do you trust the government to do the right thing? Be free from scrutiny? Do you think we should torture everyone that is apprehended as a possible combatant? Exactly at what point and severity of torture to innocent people should we draw the line in the sand and say this is not ok? What are the ramifications of torturing innocent people? I'm certainly not suggesting that there are loads of innocents in Guantanamo, but I'd be confident in saying that there are probably many there.
BTW, I've no pity for the individuals who are truly terrorists bent on killing innocent people.
the line is drawn when we have proof of someone innocent being tortured it is prosecuted, even prisoners who are found not to be terrorists could be prone to make false allegations do are guys not deserve the benefit of the doubt if there is no hard evidence. And I would still like to hear any evidence of real torture that the U.S. has not prosecuted. Not being a smart ass but do you consider the water boarding they used on Kaleed shake muhamed to be torture.

[Bill McIntyre]

So let me get this straight we can decide our guys are brutal thugs because prisoners say so, but terrorists should get the benefit of our civillain legal system

There was a piece on 60 Minutes tonight about the MP who reported abuse by members of his unit at Abu Ghraib. The prisoners didn't say our guys were brutal thugs- he did.

He was OK until he was watching Rumsfeld on TV, and Rumsfeld outed him by saying what a great example he was. Then everyone in his unit knew within hours, and they had to fly him out to the states for his own protection. The Army met him at Dover, Delaware and asked him where he wanted to go. He said he wanted to go home to Cumberland, MD, and they said they had checked it out and he wouldn't be safe there.

They did an interview with the leader of the local VFW in Cumberland, and sure enough he thought the guy was the bad guy rather than those who committed the abuses.

They put him and his wife on an Army base and gave them 6 bodyguards who went everywhere with them. He is now out of the Army and won't say where he is living or what he is doing.

When the reporter asked him if Saddam didn't do even worse stuff, he said sure he did, but we are the US Army and we are better than that. People look to us for an example of good conduct. He upheld the law, but he is the one being punished, even though 7 guys were convicted of wrongdoing in courts-martial.

Before I read this thread, I would have found it hard to believe that a guy who followed the rules and did what is right would be a target, but its obvious that many of you would have wanted to shoot him too.

Its disappointing and disgusting.

[aaron proffitt]

My problem wouldn't have nec. been with the guy who blew the whistle...but the dumb fuk who had the camera in the first place and the idiots who posed.Talk about minor league stupidity.

Having said that, we are dealing with a combatant somewhat unique to our way of thinking when it comes to rules governing interrogation.We may need to change some things up in how we do it.
For wht it's worth,saw a pic the other day of a tank that had the decaying head of a Japanese soldier jammed on the front of it.Believe it was in Time's historic essay of pictures.Their's an interesting tactic for psych warfare.

[Bill McIntyre]

ITSABOUTIME- if I hated America, I would be working to overturn the 22nd Amendment to the Constitution which limits Presidents to two terms. Then right wing Christians like you who have been so conned by this idiot who claims to be born again, even if it might just have been a hallucination while he was drunk on alcohol or cocain, could reelect him and let him really finish the nation off.

He could start more unprovoked wars, manage them so poorly that they couldn't possibly be won, cause the killing and maiming of thousands more young Americans, run the national debt so high that our currency and credit would collapse, and reduce us to a third world nation.

You who try to cast everyone who is against this President as a hater of America are the real haters. I see politicians and economists who I believe to be misguided, but I accept the fact that they are sincere in their beliefs and don't really want to bring down the country, even if I think that may be the result of their policies. But you seem to have memorized this mantra that casts dreaded "liberals" as haters of America.

Liberals are people who want to save Social Security and Medicare or do something about widening income inequality. Liberals are people who want to protect our constitutional rights to privacy and due process. Even if you disagree with those goals, its hard for me to believe that you cast them as haters. I can only conclude that you are the one with hate in your heart.

But I still spent in 20 years putting my ass on the line to protect your right to call me a hater.

[aaron proffitt]

Who in the hell are you talking to,Bill ?

[Bill McIntyre]

Who in the hell are you talking to,Bill ?

I'm talking to ITSABOUTTIME, who said I'm a self loathing America hater.

I'd like to tell you his real name, but of course he is one who hides behind a user name.

[mnguy]

Who in the hell are you talking to,Bill ?

Itsabouttime- if I hated America...

Reading is FUNdamental folks ;)

[aaron proffitt]

I'm talking to ITSABOUTTIME, who said I'm a self loathing America hater.

I'd like to tell you his real name, but of course he is one who hides behind a user name.


Awrighty...thought I had pissed you off again.

[mcjaret]

The guy also said that he went to Iraq with 200 of the best soldiers he ever knew and he's upset that the unit will be forever stained over the actions of 7 idiots who were tried and sentenced.

I don't think anyone here indicated they wanted to shoot this guy. Too bad he's having trouble.

As I remember, the public sentiment at Ft Benning, and elsewhere in America, during the Calley trial wasn't very supportive of the prosecution either. My Lai was one hell of a lot worse than anything I heard of happening in Iraq, but many people then didn't see anything wrong with throwing over a hundred captured old men, women, and children into a ditch and shooting them.

Historically, we are one of the only societies to ever exist that actually prosecutes its own people (Okay, the Brits did prosecute Breaker Morant and two others during the Boer War, but they were Aussies who, at the time, were viewed by proper Englishmen as little more than transported convicts. Easy scapegoats. Interestingly, the Australians I while there met still hold a grudge over that trial.) In most cases, losers face war crime trials while actions of friendly forces are swept under the rug. I view our willingness to address our own people's wrongdoing as a strength.

As an aside, I read yesterday that Philly is having a terrible time prosecuting murder cases even when the victim was a little kid who happened to walk home from school in the wrong place. Seems witnesses keep recanting their statements.

[apnea_complex]

sometimes I like to tie double-knots on my shoes to keep me from falling on the loose laces.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

To keep my above posts from dragging this thread further in the gutter. I don't beleive Billy Mac hates America anymore than I know gradyman would ever treat a human in sadistic manner. But what we are talking about here is judging our leaders and soldiers on how they conduct warfare. If somebody can define fair rules go ahead. The President asked Congress to do this, they have not, the democratic controled congress can specificaly define what is and what is not torture do you think they will? I can not define what is and is not fair in war and dealing with terrorists but if anybody is gonna get the benefit of the doubt it will be our side. But I don't call ruff treatmment that ordinary men can survive and withtsand like the abuse you get in boot camp, hazing for a frat, or like my older brother and his friends routinely put me through should brand our soldirers and gov. officials as sadistic criminals.
Bill did you read this quote when I said that I was just getting down to your level. BTW my name is Brian Leverette, I'll PM my cell phone and address if you require,

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill did you read this quote when I said that I was just getting down to your level.

No, once you start the accusations that I hate America, it tends to inhibit careful reading of the rest of your stuff. Why bother to read everything from someone who speaks in Karl Rove shorthand.

It seems that once again Karl has managed to lower the level of discourse. He was smart enough to know that his boss and his boss's policies were hard to defend on their merits, so he provided this simple response any time anyone questioned anything.

"Why do you hate America."

It was easy to memorize and avoided requirement for thought or consideration of alternatives. Any monkey could use it. Of course it initially put about half the population in the position of hating their own country.

Now that things have gone so poorly, I would think that everyone would be willing to entertain the possibility that alternative leadership and policies must be considered, but old habits are hard to break. Some of you are still leaning on the easy way out, calling everyone who disagrees with your reverence for the born-again Idiot in Chief a hater of his own country.

[elCajuna Grande]

he saw soldiers playing football with an enemy's head they cut off.

wouldn't that be HEADBALL?

[Gradyman]

OK guys, I got a few minutes here on vacation while everyone is shopping.

I still don't think my explanations are going to change you guys, but so you know that I'm not avioding you I'll give it a try.

The leaders you mentioned Bill are not good ones, which goes without saying...the laws you mentioned Jim are not too my personal liking, but in both cases what can I personally do when a leader goes "bad" or laws are passed with out a vote on it. In the arena we're speaking about I can really do only a few things, two things mainly...vote and pray...maybe make some calls, sign some petitions, send some emails, but if the masses don't unite on the issue there isn't much of it that's going to change...So, I beleive what the scripture says about leaders. Paul wrote these things in Romans 13 when the leaders of his time were not very "freindly" to the Christians, so I think his thoughts & perspective on it are much deeper then the circumstances that surrounded him...I choose to let God into my thoughts and try to see things from His perspective (now to explain even that will take pages, so I'm not)...Scriptures also says much more about trusting God and having leaders but I don't think you all want or would receive a Bible lesson here.

I am for good leaders and laws that bring peace and make life peaceable for all; but when "things" happen all we can do doesn't amount to a whole lot unless we devote our life to it or we are blessed with a "platform" that many will be aware of & join. So in my "little" world of affluence I choose to stay informed to vote wisely, pray for our government and trust God that my country & family will live in peace, even if there are "storms" all around us. I trust God to deal with our leaders & lives and He hasn't let me down in my life. It's not to say everything has been a "bed of roses" but I'm alive and at peace and life is good...and I get to spearfish once a week or more when the winds not blowing!!

Back to vacation!

[BLACKFIN]

Which tactics are you polling? The tactics by the ACLU or by our troops in battle? I'm with Megabeast.

[Marcus]

Which tactics are you polling? The tactics by the ACLU or by our troops in battle? I'm with Megabeast.

The alleged torture tactics mentioned in the article at the beginning of this thread that you apparently missed.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

No, once you start the accusations that I hate America, it tends to inhibit careful reading of the rest of your stuff. Why bother to read everything from someone who speaks in Karl Rove shorthand.

It seems that once again Karl has managed to lower the level of discourse. He was smart enough to know that his boss and his boss's policies were hard to defend on their merits, so he provided this simple response any time anyone questioned anything.

"Why do you hate America."

It was easy to memorize and avoided requirement for thought or consideration of alternatives. Any monkey could use it. Of course it initially put about half the population in the position of hating their own country.

Now that things have gone so poorly, I would think that everyone would be willing to entertain the possibility that alternative leadership and policies must be considered, but old habits are hard to break. Some of you are still leaning on the easy way out, calling everyone who disagrees with your reverence for the born-again Idiot in Chief a hater of his own country.
Has nothing to do with Karl or Bush ,and was posed as a question to show your bigoted way of attacking christains when one speaks up.We all don't think a like,nor is somebodies faith responsible for all of their opionions. You say we shouldn't put faith in service members or elected officials but you sure throw your service out there as to why we should have respect and faith in your intentions( wich I do by the way I just think you can be a dick to people)

[Bill McIntyre]

Has nothing to do with Karl or Bush ,and was posed as a question to show your bigoted way of attacking christains when one speaks up.

Whether or not its true, how does attacking Christians make me a hater of America?

Edit: when you claim that I hate America, I think its only fair to mention my service to it.

If you don't agree with me on politics or war, take the time to explain why rather than just falling back on the "hate America" mantra.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

I was using a created stereotype to combat your attempting to create a stereo type, wich is why I posted I did not believe you hated America before anybody replied

[mcjaret]

I think we can all agree that while Bill may be a loud-mouth, egotistical, idealogically frozen, thin-skinned, venom-toungued, disrespectful, self-centered Asshole some or most of the time, HE DOES NOT HATE AMERICA. Nor should he be accused of that. No matter what he says, he has, in fact, earned that right in ways most people here wouldn't want to experience in a nightmare. Then, he got up the following morning and did it all over again for years at a time. Never forget that.

Besides, he lives in California so he came by that way of thinking honestly. Remember what your Mom taught you about hanging out with the wrong crowd.

Just trying to help, Marine.

[Marcus]

Oh yea...I knew this would be interesting. :D

[Bill McIntyre]

Just trying to help, Marine.

I'll take what I can get. :)

[ITSABOUTTIME]

Which statement is more likely true Christains believe in torture at will, or liberals are self loathing America Haters?
Again this is the post followed by one thay specificaly said I did not believe Bill to hate America. I will go further to say while there are many things I do think about him in the context of being a liberal. I believe him in being a marine and all marines to be patriots until someone can without a doubt can prove otherwise. But I also believe in his constant attacks on Christains and trying to bring that into every discussion of opions that he can be a horses ass! and so can I

[Bill McIntyre]

ITSABOUTTIME, I'm not attacking Christians. But when they enter into a political discussion and say something like all leaders can be trusted because it says so somewhere in the bible, I will say what I think of that concept.

It wouldn't matter if the claim was that leaders should be trusted because Santa says so, the Easter Bunny says so, or Satan says so. Its so patently and demonstrably untrue that its hard to let go.

If all a person is going to say to every discussion is that he knows God and we can't possibly understand unless we seek Her help, then that doesn't contribute much that the huge majority, including many Christians, can understand or take seriously.

Again, I don't enter your devotional discussions because its out of my league and its your business. But if someone insists on entering a political discussion and saying we should trust his opinion because he talks to God, then he invites a reply that may seem to you like Christian-bashing.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

Thanks for asking that. Since he is one of our more outspoken Christians, I really wanted to put it that way, but was trying not to be confrontational to our Christians for a change.

I'm obviously struggling with understanding this Christian morality thing, but I wondered if he was coming more from an Old Testament POV rather than a New Testament POV.

Edit: shit, I just remembered. The born-agains are not concerned with how they treat their fellow man (works) but only with their personal relationship with Christ.

What do these passages mean?

So by their fruits you will know them. [Matt. 7:20]

Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. [Matt. 25:40]

Torture at will.
Bill this is the one that I responded to and nobody mentioned Religion but you guys to run somebody else down

[Bill McIntyre]

So what do those passages mean?

When someone frequently quotes from scripture to back up a position, I think its fair to ask him how other passages from scripture apply.

And BTW, the context was about not sweating it if a few innocent prisoners get tortured as long as most of them deserve it.

[ITSABOUTTIME]

If you want to hear really want know what the passages mean then Gradyman would be beter to answer that. ask him in a pm without insulting and I am sure he will answer. Somehow I don't really see that happening though.

[jfjf]

Just trying to bring more peace and harmony to the discussion:



Group seeks probe of evangelical military video
3:32 p.m. 12/11/2006 Provided by



By Kristin Roberts

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A watchdog group that promotes religious freedom in the U.S. military accused senior officers on Monday using their rank and influence to coerce soldiers and airmen into adopting evangelical Christianity.

Such proselytizing, according to the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, has created a core of "radical" Christians within the U.S. armed forces and Pentagon who punish those who do not accept evangelical beliefs by stalling their careers.

"It's egregious beyond the pale," said Mikey Weinstein, president and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. "We apparently have a radicalized, evangelical Christian Pentagon within the rest of the Pentagon."

The group asked the Pentagon's inspector general to investigate a video in which some Army and Air Force officers discuss their faith while in uniform.

According to the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, the video played for reporters was a promotional tool for Christian Embassy, a group that describes itself as a ministry helping national and international leaders blend faith and work.

The executive director of Christian Embassy, Bob Varney, did not respond to a request for comment.

Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said the Defense Department does not endorse any religion or religious organization or judge the validity of religious expressions.

He confirmed the Defense Department inspector general, the Pentagon's internal watchdog agency, received the letter requesting the probe, but noted it was the inspector general's policy not to say whether an investigation had been opened.

"At this point it would be inappropriate to speculate as to what actions might be taken," Whitman said.

RELIGIOUS RECRUITING

The Military Religious Freedom Foundation said the officers on the video violated military rules by wearing their uniforms while discussing their religious beliefs, giving the appearance of official participation in a religious organization.

That appearance, according to the group, is particularly damaging in the military, where rank carries great influence.

"It associates the power of office with sectarian ideology," said MeLinda Morton, a Lutheran reverend and former Air Force chaplain who said her military career was hurt because she did not adopt evangelical views.

The religious freedom group also raised issues with the content of the video, including a comment from Air Force Maj. Gen. Jack Catton that he would discuss his faith with people who came to his Joint Staff directorate within the Pentagon.

Weinstein compared what he said was radical proselytizing within the military with the Islamist militants U.S. troops are confronting in wars overseas.

"When we're facing a global war on terror against what we call Islamic extremists, it certainly doesn't help when we have apparently a viewpoint from the cognoscenti and glitterati, the leadership of the Pentagon, pushing a particular virulent worldview down the throats of people who are helpless to argue against it," Weinstein said.

[Bill McIntyre]

I've been reading about that sort of thing for years in Marine Corps Times. The Air Force Academy caused a big stink with its evangelical proselytizing, and I think that Chaplain mentioned in the article got her career ruined for objecting.

Jewish cadets said that they were told that they would burn in hell if they did not accept Jesus, and it was just very uncomfortable for non-evangelcals in general.

It sounds like the military is much more in the control of Christians than it was during my career. I keep reading things that make me roll my eyes. One that comes to mind was an Air Force Brigadier General who had been legally separated from his wife for two years but the divorce wasn't final. He dated another woman and got court-martialed for adultery. Adultery was always a punishable offense under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, but I can't recall a single case being prosecuted during my career.

When my squadron left for Vietnam, if they had weeded out every pilot who committed adultery during weekend cross country flights, we wouldn't have been able to go. I'm not saying it was right, but just that it was considered a man's own business unless it affected performance. Now it seems that command is trying to butt into everyone's bedroom, just as the Republican Reich wants to dictate private behavior.

The most remarkable incident I can recall was when I was a 2nd Lt in Officer's Basic School. The company commander was a salty old ex-enlisted Major, with a lot of medals from Korea. He stood on a stage in front of 200 Lts. and talked about what happened when you went overseas. He said that as the ship left the pier, you stomped your feet on the deck, spun around three times, said "gone, gone, gone" and all of a sudden you were a bachelor again.

I'll have to admit to being a bit shocked by that one, but I guess these guys with that attitude had been pretty competent warriors in Korea.

Now days that Major would be instantly relieved of command.

[aaron proffitt]

. One that comes to mind was an Air Force Brigadier General who had been legally separated from his wife for two years but the divorce wasn't final. He dated another woman and got court-martialed for adultery. Adultery was always a punishable offense under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, but I can't recall a single case being prosecuted during my career.

.


Bill,
I actually had to investigate some cases of this back when I was active in the early 90s. I think part of the deal is,not only is it a UCMJ violation, but also opens someone up for blackmail and other potential security issues.A person could be compromised due their lack of discretion.
Times have changed since your day.How many guys did you see lose their security clearances due to credit issues when you were in ? It' s all figured into how a person can be compromised.I don't think it's really a Christian ethics issue.

[Bill McIntyre]

In the real world outside the military, would someone be subject to blackmail for dating another woman after two years of legal separation while waiting for the property issues to be sorted out? I think not.

You can only blackmail someone who thinks he has something to hide. I concede that a pilot getting laid on cross country flights might not want his wife to find out, so I suppose its at least possible to get national security secrets out of him, but I never heard of it happening.

Speaking of the UCMJ, I always just loved to point out that it was illegal to have anal or oral sex with your own spouse. It falls under the UCMJ definition of sodomy.

If we think we have manpower problems now, I can hardly wait until they start enforcing that one. Having shit like that in the code just breeds contempt for the law.

[elCajuna Grande]

It sounds like the military is much more in the control of Christians than it was during my career.

John Kerry stated that our troops were terrorist and your saying that they are controlled by Christians... :confused:

[Bill McIntyre]

John Kerry stated that our troops were terrorist and your saying that they are controlled by Christians... :confused:

Huh?

You'll have to educate me. When did Kerry say which troops were terrorists. Please provide the exact quote so I can see if I interpret it as you do.

And anyway, I'm not sure how these two statements are related.

Come to think of it, Pat Robertson publicly advocated assassination of the Democratically elected President of Venezuela, so maybe Christian leadership is not always inconsistent with terrorism anyway.

[mcjaret]

Many years ago, the concept of a "geographic divorce" was well recognized. One Gunny once told me as our ship pulled out ot the Philippines, that the bad thing about Marine Corps service was you constantly had to leave your friends and loved ones and go back to your dependants.

After Tailhook, especially under Clinton, the civilians at the Pentagon put pressure on the brass to force everyone to clean up their acts as a tool against sexual harrassment. Thus, bible tumping straight arrows rose to levels of command in larger numbers. I saw 2 19-yr old kids get federal convictions to follow them for life because they fornicated a couple of weeks before the guy's divorce was final. I saw a 27 year LtCol, who was a true warrior, go to office hours before the General as the last act of his career for having sex with a married woman who told him she was single. Six young pilots all lost their careers because a batchelor party got a little wild and they didn't bow to the extortion demands from one of the dancers who had quite happily served serveral of the attendees. (Note: if you ever find yourself in one of these situations, pass the hat, everybody throw in $20, and pay the girl. If you hear someone say, "who are they going to believe (blank) like us or a ho like you?" KNOW you are in the wrong place at the wrong time and stand by for heavy rolls.

Previously, adultery was reserved for cases that actually impacted the unit (i.e. the 1stSgt who puts the Corporal on duty so he can go hit on his wife, or the officer who promises promotion to the young enlisted woman if she'll put out. Or even screwing another Marine's wife while he's deployed. Those cases cause real morale and discipline problems.) By the mid-90's, any incident of adultery was likely to cost your career no matter where it happened or how remote it was from your duties.

As for oral and anal sex, its still illegal between man and wife and anybody else by the code. Recent Supreme Court decisions might impact that. I saw a young lawyer successfully defend a charge before a discharge board when he asked the board to imagine the exchange on a busy day and then imagine if everyone who had ever engaged in oral sex disappeared . . . how long would it take the exchange to go broke? Sort of like the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" defense.

Prayer breakfasts among senior leadership are nothing new and being on the boss's goodside never hurts. Some commanders used to like to party and hanging out in the club till the wee hours on Friday night was considered career enhancing. Tee totallers lost out. Now drinking is discouraged and showing up at church might help. Where will it go next.

[aaron proffitt]

In the real world outside the military, would someone be subject to blackmail for dating another woman after two years of legal separation while waiting for the property issues to be sorted out? I think not.

.


Admittedly this is a bizarre example of no one using common sense when the law was applied.

[Bill McIntyre]

Many years ago, the concept of a "geographic divorce" was well recognized. One Gunny once told me as our ship pulled out ot the Philippines, that the bad thing about Marine Corps service was you constantly had to leave your friends and loved ones and go back to your dependants.

After Tailhook, especially under Clinton, the civilians at the Pentagon put pressure on the brass to force everyone to clean up their acts as a tool against sexual harrassment. Thus, bible tumping straight arrows rose to levels of command in larger numbers.


Thanks for the back up. I remember well the saying about leaving your loved ones and going back to your dependants. Another oft-heard comment about the advisability of bringing wives over seas was "why bring a ham sandwich to a banquet."

Maybe we should explain something that is obvious to former Marines but maybe not so obvious to all civilians. Historically, the Army and Air Force had their dependants overseas with them. But the Marine Corps always barred dependants from joining us overseas except for short periods, with the rationale being that we were the pointy end of the spear and had to be ready to mount out on a moment's notice and they didn't want us spending time trying to get our wives and kids taken care.

So on during last overseas tour as the Division Air Officer on Okinawa, Army and Air Force units all had their families with them, their kids in DOD schools, living much like they would on any base back in the states, while Marines were geographical bachelors chasing the DOD school teachers who were there for the Army and Air Force kids. I doubt that Marines are generally any more immoral than members of other services, but they were just in different circumstances.

On my previous tour in Iwakuni Japan, the Commanding General of the Air Wing, who happened to be married, had a Japanese girl friend that he openly dated. When my wife and kids were over for their short permitted visit, we were up at a trout farm in the mountains near Hiroshima drinking Kirin while the kids caught our lunch when the General walked in with his girlfriend. The General's aide, a Captain, happened to have his wife over for her permitted visit, and they had to spend all their time double-dating with the General. The General insisted that my wife and I come join him at their table, and he had the balls to introduce the Japanse girl as his interpreter. My wife barely contained a guffaw.

Sorry for all this background, but this is the way it used to be, and it was different.

Regarding the infamous Tailhook- my son was a fighter pilot at the time and was there. He didn't see any of the famous action because he was at a different hotel with his squadron Ops O and XO eating dinner, but he and every other pilot in attendance got endless grilling in the following months by the Naval Investigative Service. I think its notable that, although they desparately wanted to burn someone, not a single court martial ever resulted from Tailhook because they just couldn't get any evidence that would hold up in court.

A select few Marines, presumably because they were considered more culpable, actually had to go for a session with the Commandant of the Marine Corps, and one of them happened to be in my son's squadron. When he came back, he told the guys that he was ushered into the presence and offered a seat. Then the Commandant said something like "son, its not legalities I'm worried about, its your soul" and pulled out a bible.

I guess that Commandant was just a bit ahead of his time.

[elCajuna Grande]

When did Kerry say which troops were terrorists.
Serving in the armed forces never made Sen. John Kerry sympathize toward them (at least when it didn’t serve his personal political gain). On Face the Nation Kerry told Bob Schieffer, “And there is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the–of–the historical customs, religious customs.

[Bill McIntyre]

Thanks for the quote. Its just as I suspected.

Saying young Americans should not be "terrorizing" Iraqis by entering their homes in the dead of night is not quite the equivalent of calling our troops "terrorists."

Verb- terrorize - fill with terror; frighten greatly

That refers to the effect of their tactics on the Iraqis.

Noun- Terrorist- One who utilizes the systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve political objectives, while disguised as a civilian non-combatant. The use of a civilian disguise while on operations exempts the perpetrator from protection under the Geneva Conventions, and consequently if captured they are liable for prosecution as common criminals.

I don't think Kerry had that in mind.

[Bill McIntyre]

In a new Post-ABC News poll, seven in 10 Americans disapprove of the way the President is handling the situation in Iraq - the highest percentage since the March 2003 invasion.

The other three think Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs to church.

[Marcus]

The other three think Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs to church.

dats pretty funny there Bill.

[mcjaret]

That sounds like Gen. Krulak -- he was the poster child for that kind of "leadership." He held prayer breakfasts in the Pentagon every Wednesday and publically held that ANY moral indiscretion, no matter how minor, disqualified a Marine for further service. Cheating on your wife or sleeping with a married woman, no matter how long a separation, how close the divorce was to final, or any other excuse, was death.

I know people who wound up on the wrong list after Tailhook got an extra scrub everytime anything happened in their careers usually with the benefit of the doubt not being given the individual no matter what had happened since. One man (Navy) flew in to accept an award from the Tailhook Association for squadron of the year, had dinner and left. He wasn't near the wild parties. Even after commanding the Blue Angels, his promotion to O-6 was held up and cancelled several times over until he gave up and retired. For many, just having been in Vegas that weekend was enough to scuttle you.

The few trials that were attempted were on such dubious evidence that no reasonable trier of fact could have found them guilty. (e.g. Marine Captain charged with groping drunk female Navy Lt based on her id of him. She picked him because he was "a light skinned black man with blue eyes." Multiple credible witneses proved he wasn't even there at the time she was, but his reputation was trashed and career over.)

Unfortunately, some senior leaders felt the pressure from the media, the Congress and the executive branch was too fierce for them to say "we don't have a case." Thus, they threw people to the wolves so they could blame the court system for acquittals.

Moral cowardice and careerism is nothing new. To get those stars often requires a political instinct as well as top level service.

[Bill McIntyre]

That sounds like Gen. Krulak --

Yep, that was him.

Moral cowardice and careerism is nothing new. To get those stars often requires a political instinct as well as top level service.

Unfortunately, its true.

What is sad is that it was a female Navy Lt. aviator who started all this shit, or at least that's how I recall it. She was an Admiral's aide in Norfolk. She was a pilot, so she must have known what always went on at Tailhook every year. I never went to a single Tailhook convention during my career because I wasn't interested in spending a weekend at what was basically a drunken brawl, even if they did have Admirials and other luminaries there giving speeches. All the civilian girls who went knew exactly what it was about, and were expecting to get groped and more. And the Navy Lt. herself was up on a stool, drunk, in short shorts earlier that day getting shaved by a pilot who cast himself as "The Barber of Seville." But then she apparently had a change of heart and went back to Norfolk and bitched to her Admiral, and then all these careers came crashing down.

[aaron proffitt]

A comitted cynic wouldn't be surprised by any of this ,Bill.

[mcjaret]

The Barber of Seville? I haven't thought about him in years. For those outside the loop, the Barber offered free leg shaves to young women wandering by the hospitality room his squadron hosted. The "victims" were all volunteer and a good time was had by all. He got killed careerwise because some civilian monday morning quarterbacks felt he shaved some of the girls a little "too high" up the leg to be "proper" before drunken, cheering crowd. Tailhook was an annual convention of Naval Aviators in Vegas. By reputation, it was 2 parts Sodom, one part Gammoragh mixed with enough high test alcohol to ensure that, as far as your memory went, what happened in Vegas, stayed in Vegas.

The Lt felt she didn't get her ass kissed enough as the Admiral's Aide nor was she treated like "one of the boys" by the male pilots who had just returned from Desert Storm so she ran her mouth. She later had revealing photographs of her published from when she was in college (Ring Knocker, wasn't she?) where she had a reputation as a hard drinking party girl. The whole thing got blown out of proportion when Rep Pat Schroeder and others used it as an example of the military's attitude and treatment of women and to force changes in the military favoring women (combat aircraft assignments, sea duty, etc.).

[Bill McIntyre]

As yes, Pat Schroeder. I saw her some years ago on some TV program paired up with James Webb, former SecNav in the Reagan administration, former Marine combat hero in Vietnam, and of course recently elected to the Senate from Virginia.

She started mouthing off about how even though this horrible thing had happened at Tailhook, no one had been punished. Webb ripped her a new vagina, mentioning the former Blue Angel leader, the Chief of Naval Operations (or was it the SecNav?) who resigned, and a long list of others who had their careers ended in the hysteria.

He mentioned what had happened after a recent Tomcat Ball at Miramar Naval Air Station, the home of the Top Gun school. Every year the F-14 pilots threw this ball, and part of it was always a bunch of skits in which they made fun of authority figures. Admirals were fair game, but that year they dissed Pat Schroeder, and that resulted in both squadron commanders being relieved of command, with their careers effectively ruined. And she had the balls to say no one was ever punished. After Webb ran down this long list of "punishments" she didn't have much to say.

Damn, I guess we have really derailed the thread and turned it into an Marine bitch session.

Edit: I just have to pass this on.

I drove down to Camp Pendleton today to renew the base stickers on my cars. When my turn finally came, I went up to the counter and wished the Lance Corporal a good morning, and he replied that I looked like Donald Rumsfeld. When I got over the shock, I just laughed and said that I guessed Rummy wouldn't have had to stand in line, even if it was his last day on the job.

[mnguy]

Edit: I just have to pass this on.

I drove down to Camp Pendleton today to renew the base stickers on my cars. When my turn finally came, I went up to the counter and wished the Lance Corporal a good morning, and he replied that I looked like Donald Rumsfeld. When I got over the shock, I just laughed and said that I guessed Rummy wouldn't have had to stand in line, even if it was his last day on the job.

Ouch, that one must've hurt. At least he didn't say you looked like a monkey, I mean George W. :eek:

[mcjaret]

YOU'RE the evil twin?????

I spent 3 months in '92 calling the CG, 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing, and the Deputy SJA to the Commandant, twice a day each, updating them about the investigation over who fax'ed a paper with a couple of porn pictures and the comment "real Marines don't have tits" to Pat Schroeder's office from a squadron's S-1 office at New River. Was a Friday afternoon immediately following a change of command. (Gotta feel for the poor SOB who walked into that one.) Everyone was secured so no witnesses. NCIS at Lejeune was diverted to this heinous crime full time for about the same period. I understand that the Commandant was being briefed twice a day and had to call the Secretary of the Navy's office so they could brief the Representative's office. I participated in briefing CMC personally when he flew down to Cherry Point one Sunday specifically to talk with us about it. Huge number of polygraphs, computer's seized and sent to the FBI, and thousands of hours wasted. Never did find out for sure who did it. Total witch hunt.

At the same time, we had to stall investigating and prosecuting child molestation cases, major drug cases and a murder case because the agents couldn't be spared from defending Pat's honor. (SSgt iced his wife in base housing cause she was leaving him and dumped the body in a van outside a motel in Jacksonville in the summer. Wasn't pretty when they found her a week later.) Schoeder, of course, played it up the press for as long as she could.

No one wanted to hear (or tell her) that we were trying to run down what was in effect a prank phone call and we weren't going to crack it unless the person involved got really stupid. Not exactly a career enhancing time to be right.

I'll leave the part about the attempted scapegoating of the Squadron's Admin Officer for another day.

[Bill McIntyre]

Some days you are not quite as proud of being a Marine as you are on other days.

[mcjaret]

That's a low blow. I'm always proud of my Corps. I did see some isolated incidents of stupidity and misconduct, but then again, my last 11 years were spent as one of the people who had to clean up other people's ugly messes. For the overwhelming majority of cases, our commanders got it right. Most of the cases where it went bad stemmed when they were receiving heavy pressure from civilian political idiots who happen to have been appointed by the reigning president. I challenge anyone to spend 20 years in a large organization and not come away with some tales that make you scratch your head -- especially in my business.

[Bill McIntyre]

I challenge anyone to spend 20 years in a large organization and not come away with some tales that make you scratch your head -- especially in my business.

I can't quarrel with that.

I know I'm being excessively naive and idealistic, but some times I wished they would have just resisted the heavy pressure and told the idiots to **** off. For instance couldn't someone have told Pat that it was a prank, there was no way to find out who did it, and we have more important things to do.

But of course she was on the Armed Services Committee.

[Seth]

too many people scared of loosing their jobs to tell the idiots to **** off.

u send a guy to fight for your country, kill the enemy in your armed forces name, what do u expect him to be, an angel?? too many people with positions of power, are too withdrawn from reality, for those positions of power to do anyone any good.

[aaron proffitt]

too many people scared of loosing their jobs to tell the idiots to **** off.

u send a guy to fight for your country, kill the enemy in your armed forces name, what do u expect him to be, an angel?? too many people with positions of power, are too withdrawn from reality, for those positions of power to do anyone any good.


Good point....I challenge anyone to spend enough time playing on the dirty end of the field without getting a few stains on 'em.Just the nature of the beast.

[Bill McIntyre]

I was going to put this in the joke thread, but maybe its more at home in this forum.

"Son, you're making the same mistake in Iraq that I made with your mother. I
didn't pull out in time..."