Helium Grades

[Quetzal]

I've got to make a 1yr commitment on a Helium tank for blowing up ballons. We are looking at a 240 cu ft tank, rents for $35 a yr. Refills are $65, .27 cents per cu ft.
Ok now I'm considering taking tech classes this summer and was wondering if if this Helium would be useable for a tri-mix? If not what spec gas do I need to get in preperation for tri-mix? BTW this Helium would be Tax deductable since it is for "advertising" ;) purposes.

[fizisition]

Won't work. You need 99.9% pure he. The he in baloon tanks has o2 in it and is of less purity.

[Nsearch]

Won't work. You need 99.9% pure he. The he in baloon tanks has o2 in it and is of less purity.

Still makes you talk funny though :D

[Marcus]

Still makes you talk funny though :D


Like you need the help. :p

[Quetzal]

What would a breathing gas grade fill for 240 cu ft usually cost? Do the cylinders need to be a certain grade or rating?
What do you ask for if you want breathing grade?

[fizisition]

I think I pay around 57.00 for that cu ft.

[inletsurf]

you mean $0.57 right? :D

[fizisition]

you mean $0.57 right? :D

No I meant for "that cu ft" to mean 240 cu ft.

At .57 a cuft I 'd rather be narced ;)

[fizisition]

What would a breathing gas grade fill for 240 cu ft usually cost? Do the cylinders need to be a certain grade or rating?
What do you ask for if you want breathing grade?


Not to be a dick, but no ones probably going to answer your question unless you are He certified. They teach the answers to your questions in a tri mix class.

[AlexF]

Your best bet is to talk to you He distributor and ask them what the purity of the gas supplied is, then you will know if you can use it for mixes.

Helium comes from underground wells, so I wouldn't know how it would come mixed with oxigen.

If you need any specifics of the gas I can gladly provide them as we are the largest producer and distributor of industrial gases in Mexico.

[bgbill]

Your best bet is to talk to you He distributor and ask them what the purity of the gas supplied is, then you will know if you can use it for mixes.

Helium comes from underground wells, so I wouldn't know how it would come mixed with oxigen.

If you need any specifics of the gas I can gladly provide them as we are the largest producer and distributor of industrial gases in Mexico.

At the plant where they fill the bottles, they will add oxygen to Balloon Grade He, because kids will breath it to talk funny and they don't want the kids dying.

[dagodiver]

Use UHP He and you will be fine.
I pay 78 for a 300 delivered.


Dago.

[Marcus]

At the plant where they fill the bottles, they will add oxygen to Balloon Grade He, because kids will breath it to talk funny and they don't want the kids dying.


Coool...pre-mixed! You're ready to go! :D

[dagodiver]

Coool...pre-mixed! You're ready to go! :D


Just remember that if you are diving HeliOx instead of Trimix that you have to worry about that HPNS thing also.! :D Atleast in the 300-600 fsw range. :eek:




Dago.

[AlexF]

At the plant where they fill the bottles, they will add oxygen to Balloon Grade He, because kids will breath it to talk funny and they don't want the kids dying.

Balloon He is 99.99 to 99.98% pure, that is not enough to sustain life if a kid inhales from the tank.

Industrial applications for helium require different purities, and the highest would be for applications like cromatography (not sure if it's translated right) which require 99.999999% he.

For underwater operations 99.999% purity is required and the impurity tolearnce is 3 parts per million of humidity, 3 ppm of oxigen and 1 ppm of hidrocarbon. This helium is called UHP = Ultra High Purity.

[bgbill]

Balloon He is 99.99 to 99.98% pure, that is not enough to sustain life if a kid inhales from the tank.



He comes from the same bulk tank, what makes it balloon grade is how it is transfilled, and into what cylinder, like whether or not is is vacuumed down and if so how many times, at the plant, there are some places that will add some 02 to it, so when kids inhale it at a party, they won't pass out.

I am sure it is not an exact mixture in every cylinder, but at least enough to where some dumbass kid doesn't breath almost pure He and pass out.

[EL GAVILAN]

The issue with ballon grade is that it is not analized. You need to know what you are working with. My take on He is that industrial (99.995) is fine. It is better grade wise than medical O2. The key is to have a lot number (sticker on tank) and paper trail.
Jim

[Sherpa]

Our cryo pumps for semiconductor equipment (hi-vac implanters, chambers, etc) require the highest grade HE available. because running anything less
causes frost/ice.... ice sucks when you're down to 8-kelvin.


here's something else I learned that is EXTREMELY CRITICAL about using
this pure of gas: There are SPECIFIC STEPS/PROCEDURES involved with
using this stuff...... how to pipe the gas itself, regulator use, connecting,
disconnecting, etc.........

it only takes a millisecond to turn ultra pure HE into HE that could only be
used for leak check tests, etc............

unless you know E-X-A-C-T-L-Y what you are doing, you'll f-up a full bottle
of gas....... real quick....... and given the fact your gonna be using the
same gas for balloons, I'd buy a bottle specifically for your dive mix, and a
bottle for balloons..........


--Sherpa

[aue-mike]

1. Get the proper training/education before blending your own trimix (or nitrox for that matter).
2. Trust no one. Even with UHP, which has a paper trail of analysis (along with the vacuum evacuation of bottles being the major difference of "welding grade" helium), sometimes weird shit happens. Case in point, in South Florida an incident happened where divers were about to splash in on a deep dive, one diver noticed the gas did not produce the "donald duck" effect as expected. You might think divers are goofing around when they take a couple breaths and start talking while suiting up, but it is a form of "helium check" as you get that effect around 30% and up...
Anyway, they realized something was amiss and aborted. Turns out one of the bottles of UHP helium -- which was labeled as such and had been apparently analyzed by the gas supplier when filled according to the paperwork on file -- was actually 100% nitrogen. Thankfully, a potentially bad situation was averted.

Food for thought.

[HeadHunter]

Proper training first.

Use UHP, from a reputable gas distibutor. (Don't get it from willy's welding)

A HE analyzer is a great additional safety check.(This would have caught the Nitrogen screw up)

Use high quality gauges while mixing...

"Trust No One"...I like that...very good point. It's your life you're risking.

My distributor analyzes every bottle of HE thats being used for diving before it leaves his shop...It ain't a bad idea to request this service, even if it cost a few $$$.

[dagodiver]

Listen to Mike and Dan.!

I always assume that everyone is as nuts as I am when it comes to checking and rechecking all your gear before a dive and I did not mean to sound..oh whatever...will do.

Be safe.!

Dago.

[EL GAVILAN]

Mike B., a little more info on the incident quoted?
Jim

[aue-mike]

Mike B., a little more info on the incident quoted?
Jim

I will ask my friend who was involved. There was talk of potential legal action (because of the UHP analysis that was wrong and this was a dive shop) so I need to check to see what's up with that....

[EL GAVILAN]

Thanks Mike, I inquired as I know of a similar occurence in Tampa where the bottle labeled He had argon/CO2. Thought it might have been the same.
Jim @ Fantasea Scuba

[Killer&Griller]

Coool...pre-mixed! You're ready to go! :D

Note to self, stop using the premix. How come nobody told me that there were classes for this stuff? Does this mean that I should stop planning my dives with my nitrox cards? :D

[Quetzal]

Thanks for the education guys.

[markZ]

I went into the "fillstation" of one South Florida dive shop (who I will not name), and discovered they were selling helium that was not UHP, and asked them about their trimix fills. I discovered they had been selling trimix, probably for years, using the lessor grade, because when I asked them about it, the owner of the shop did NOT EVEN KNOW there were different grades .. and he was not joking. He really didn't know! I have also known divers who have deliberately purchased the lessor grades of helium, and have used it successfully.

Now, we all know you shouldn't do that, but its kind of interesting what you run into sometimes.

[Megabeast]

I imagine if you actually have a helium analyzer, it's not a problem.

I personally feel that Trimix instructors should NOT teach people to dive trimix without using a helium analyzer. I did that for my trimix classes and was NOT in the least bit comfortable with it. However, my cost at the time for a dive rite analyzer was like 600 bucks (can't imagine what the retail is), and I couldn't swing it. The new owner bought one though, and that is a great thing. I personally don't dive helium anymore unless it's been analyzed (the SCUBA tank, not the T tank). It's your ass if you get bent, do you really want to mess up a math problem and have it cost you your life?

[GRIM REEFER]

Good info!
I go to praxair (about five minutes from my house)
I don't get as good a price for a "T" as Dago does, But if i need some He, I can have it in five minutes.

Trust no one is is words to live by when diving gas.

Either you, Or the one topping up your tank had better have an analizer.

Also, The UHP tanks should have plastic shrink wrap around the valve when full. The wealding grade does not.

[dagodiver]

I always check with a 3mix analyzer when I get the top off at the shop and then again when I get home with another 3mix analyzer.


Dago.

[EL GAVILAN]

Analyzing your final mix personally is a must.

But as far as grades of He are concerned, what are the impurities in a lesser grade (not ballon), and how would they affect the diver?
Jim

[aue-mike]

Analyzing your final mix personally is a must.

But as far as grades of He are concerned, what are the impurities in a lesser grade (not ballon), and how would they affect the diver?
Jim

One of the theoretical situations that has been related to me is should a helium tank be improvised at a work site to hold acetelyene or something else, and is not properly labeled, when returned a complacent individual at the gas supplier could simply top off the helium tank instead of dumping it, etc. Then you could have a major issue, even with small amounts (especially for deep dives due to the compounding PP effect). Not sure how likely this is, as having impure gasses would screw up welds too, but you never know. But, I have heard from welders that they do sometimes use labeled tanks for other purposes, such as the theoretical example above. Seeing that even UHP tanks have been mislabled/misidentified, I would not discount it.

If you have your own bulk cylinders, then this potential issue is not so much a concern. Especially if you go to the gas supplier/distributor (e.g., Orlando) where they fill the tanks and get it done yourself. Then there really is no issue with using "welding grade" helium IMHO.

[Nsearch]

First, thanks for your input on this thread Mike. Second, have you heard any concerns regarding the US supply of HE? That supply is beginning to dwindle and that sometime in the near (used loosely) future all HE will be solely for commercial use?

[EL GAVILAN]

The point has been made that we need to double check that the grade is what it's labeled. But there is a bunch of He grades available (not balloon),with purity ranges from 99.995 to 99.9999 . In the lesser grade you have .005 of 'other'. Is this a concern in our mixes? What is the other?
Jim

[EL GAVILAN]

First, thanks for your input on this thread Mike. Second, have you heard any concerns regarding the US supply of HE? That supply is beginning to dwindle and that sometime in the near (used loosely) future all HE will be solely for commercial use?
One of my gas supliers claims the government is useing hugh supplies of He doing anti-missle lazer tests. No beer was involved when he made this claim.
Jim

[aue-mike]

First, thanks for your input on this thread Mike. Second, have you heard any concerns regarding the US supply of HE? That supply is beginning to dwindle and that sometime in the near (used loosely) future all HE will be solely for commercial use?

I have not really delved too deeply into this issue, but I don't see how helium could be restricted for commercial use. As far as the supplier is concerned, as long as he is getting paid, its all "commercial" -- your money is just as good as AAA Welding. I can't really give you a good answer on what the actual status on the supply really is. But just like with other commodities (e.g., gasoline), there is enough talk about limited supply right now that undoubtedly some suppliers are taking advantage of it and raising prices, whether or not the cost is going up on their end.

[aue-mike]

The point has been made that we need to double check that the grade is what it's labeled. But there is a bunch of He grades available (not balloon),with purity ranges from 99.995 to 99.9999 . In the lesser grade you have .005 of 'other'. Is this a concern in our mixes? What is the other?
Jim

Doubtful. The purity range is the specified minimum. This is done mainly to allow consumers to purchase the right gas for a specific application. For example, some laboratories need a purity of five nines to calibrate certain instruments -- anything less won't cut it. Now, in regards to respiration, I personally don't think a concentration of .005% is anything to worry about (unless we are talking about something really exotic). Problem is -- off the top of my head -- most contaminant exposures are related in terms of mg/cm3 and stuff like that, so I can't get my head wrapped around that on a Friday evening. :D I can check with some of my hyperbaric doc friends though to see what they may think.
Regardless, you are far more than likely to introduce higher concentrations of CO, CO2, hydrocarbons, moisture, or whatever else into the equation through use of a compressor when topping off your mix. I have had some bad experiences with toluene/benzene type stuff from overheated synthetic compressor oils, which based on ongoing research, is probably more prevalent than most would expect, especially during the warm summer months down here in Florida. So I personally am not so worried about the helium issue. But that is another issue anyway...
Keep in mind the above is just my opinion. YMMV. I am sure markz has done a bit of research on this and perhaps can offer more information.

In regards to volume, diving is not enough a drop in the bucket. Probably not even a molecule of a drop in the bucket. Welding use is probably not even a drop in the bucket. I know some of the gas analysis guys at Kennedy Space Center and they have a HUGE gas farm there of five nine helium they use to test lines for the shuttle program. Annually, they probably lose more to leaks than divers could ever use. Government, military, and large industry take the lion's share of available helium.

[EL GAVILAN]

Mike, you hit the nail on the head. The air ond O2 that we mix with the He have the exact same impurities (O2,hydrocarbons,N2,watervapor,etc.), but in higher concentrations.
Jim
It's the weekend,so let's discuss the purity of CABOWABO!

[EL GAVILAN]

Here is some info that you may find usefull (or not);
PRAXAIR has been supplying gasses to the commercial diving market for many years. They now offer TECHNICAL DIVING GRADE gasses to recreational market (dive centers, charter boats,etc.).
Here are the grades and specs;
OXYGEN-TECHNICAL DIVING GRADE
Purity 99.5%

HELIUM-TECHNICAL DIVING GRADE
Purity 99.995%

ARGON-TECHNICAL DIVING GRADE
Purity 99.998%

99.995 He is also called PURE GRADE by most suppliers and 99.997 is ZERO GRADE, and 99.999 is UHP.
Jim

[SouthBaySpearo]

If you plan on setting up your own fill station, this book is a must have, http://www.airspeedpress.com/newoxyhacker.html , along with the proper training and education.

Dive safe.

Roland

[aue-mike]

fwiw, some suppliers established "diver grade" oxygen a while ago, which is the same thing as aviator grade. they did this mainly to gauge the market to see how much the demand is in that sector of their market, and probably why they did the same for other gasses too....


Here is some info that you may find usefull (or not);
PRAXAIR has been supplying gasses to the commercial diving market for many years. They now offer TECHNICAL DIVING GRADE gasses to recreational market (dive centers, charter boats,etc.).
Here are the grades and specs;
OXYGEN-TECHNICAL DIVING GRADE
Purity 99.5%

HELIUM-TECHNICAL DIVING GRADE
Purity 99.995%

ARGON-TECHNICAL DIVING GRADE
Purity 99.998%

99.995 He is also called PURE GRADE by most suppliers and 99.997 is ZERO GRADE, and 99.999 is UHP.
Jim