Obama has thrown his hat in the ring...

[aaron proffitt]

Figured it was coming,and here it is. Barack Obama has announced his run for the 2008 Pres. bid.
I figure Hiliary is pissed at this and it ought to be fun to watch.
As great of a speaker as he is,though,....what has he done ?
All I see is a pretty face and a smooth talker,but not much else.
Am I missing something about him ?

[Marcus]

You really miss Bill dont you? :D:D

[aaron proffitt]

:( :( :( :(

I do ,Marcus. It's true.
I miss the yin to my yang.I feel unbalanced.

[bgbill]

If it hurts Hillary, that is a good thing :thumps:

They both will have to be careful with how they go after each other, neither of them will get elected though.

[f94gator]

All I see is a pretty face and a smooth talker,but not much else.


Smooth talking got Clinton elected.
I agree with Bret, though - Obama won't get elected, but he'll make some waves.

[richhermes]

Smooth talking got Clinton elected.
I agree with Bret, though - Obama won't get elected, but he'll make some waves.

You watch, some nut-case white supremist group will take out Obama. I don't wish this on him, but it will come up in media discussion.

[SpearSlayer]

You watch, some nut-case white supremist group will take out Obama. I don't wish this on him, but it will come up in media discussion.

Maybe the white supremists will get dumbfounded when they find out he's half white :confused:

[aaron proffitt]

You watch, some nut-case white supremist group will take out Obama. I don't wish this on him, but it will come up in media discussion.


Nah,I doubt it. Figure they would have taken out Jesse Jackson by now if they were gonna do it.
I know Obama's track record for the 2nd Amendment isn't very good.Forgot where I saw that,though.

[richhermes]

Nah,I doubt it. Figure they would have taken out Jesse Jackson by now if they were gonna do it.
I know Obama's track record for the 2nd Amendment isn't very good.Forgot where I saw that,though.

The only reason they didn't take out Jesse is that he never had a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected. I think Obama has a better chance.

[aaron proffitt]

Good point,rich.
It's gonna be interesting watching Hiliary's reaction on this. She figured she was the Golden Child of the DNC.

[mrfish87]

He wont get the vote in Louisiana after bashing the Saints. He'll probably back off and fall in as VP under Hillary or possibly vice versa. Regardless it's going to be a hell of a good time to watch who will bash the hell out of who and then make up in the end

[f94gator]

You watch, some nut-case white supremist group will take out Obama. I don't wish this on him, but it will come up in media discussion.

I agree. If, by some stretch of the imagination, Obama becomes a serious contender, he either won't survive to election day or the Secret Service will be putting in some serious overtime protecting his ass.

[biggsy]

What will we have first? A black president or a woman?

[Capt.Gene]

One good thing going for himself is he ISN"T Hillary.
The "I HATE Hillary" vote, half the white vote and all the black vote gets him nominated.
Then he looses to any white Republican not named Bush.
I fear once again we won't have anyone who can make a difference to vote for in the Republican party.

[Wayward Son]

I expect the Hildabeast to utterly trash him in the primaries. It's what the Clintons are best at.

She was asked if she thought he was qualified to be the commander in chief, which she refused to answer. I'd like to know what makes her qualified?

[Joe Wegmann]

He wont get the vote in Louisiana after bashing the Saints. He'll probably back off and fall in as VP under Hillary or possibly vice versa. Regardless it's going to be a hell of a good time to watch who will bash the hell out of who and then make up in the end

Thats exactly whats going to happen!

[Marcus]

Thats exactly whats going to happen!


I know GW has been a terrible president but still I don't think he was so bad that America is going to put both Hillary and a half black man in the presidency.

BTW, I think Obama would make a good president. He's kind of like Palmer on 24. :D

[mrfish87]

His name alone will keep him from the presidency as did Bobby Jindal's name kept him from Governor in LA.

[jettyrat21]

He's no President Palmer.

[richhermes]

BTW, I think Obama would make a good president. He's kind of like Palmer on 24. :D

And look what happened to him!! I rest my case!!
:D

[eyyeball]

His voting record will sink his candacy if he gets the nomination, it's extremely liberal both in Illinois and in Washington.

[DIVERTOM]

He's testing the waters, if he can't get a momentum going he will back out
due to lack of funding. You know like Pat Robertson.

[bgbill]

What will we have first? A black president or a woman?

I don't think it matters, but it would be nice to have a Good President.

Obama or Hillary would not be a Good President.

[Summerland Key]

What is going on with his past? Are these rumors about him once being a Muslim and attending Islamic schools in Indonesia correct? I don't particularly care for either Obama or Hillary, but how in the hell did he get this far if the rumors are correct?

[jackpine savage]

The rumors are false. He never converted to Islam and he never went to an Islamic school in Indonesia. Its sad that politics have fallen so low that we even take rumors like this half seriously. I don't think Hillary would make a good president and I don't think Obama has the experience to run for president. If the election were today I would vote Chuck Hagel. McCain is just the GOP version of Hillary, like her he has sold his soul to try to be president.

[stickitfishy]

Hillary would be good as VP, but we need someone new for Pres. If Obama or Hillary run for pres the Dems might actually lose because I don't think enough people who vote, will vote for a black or a woman.

[mrfish87]

I don't think it matters, but it would be nice to have a Good President.

What he said!!!

[mulefeathers]

The rumors are false. He never converted to Islam and he never went to an Islamic school in Indonesia. Its sad that politics have fallen so low that we even take rumors like this half seriously. I don't think Hillary would make a good president and I don't think Obama has the experience to run for president. If the election were today I would vote Chuck Hagel. McCain is just the GOP version of Hillary, like her he has sold his soul to try to be president.

I wouldn't say totally false:


In two best-selling autobiographies—"The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream" and "Dreams from My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance"—Mr. Obama, born in Honolulu where his parents met, mentions but does not expand on his Muslim background, alluding only to his attendance at a "predominantly Muslim school."

In the book, Mr. Obama briefly addresses his education in Indonesia. "During the five years that we would live with my stepfather in Indonesia, I was sent first to a neighborhood Catholic school and then to a predominantly Muslim school; in both cases, my mother was less concerned with me learning the catechism or puzzling out the meaning of the muezzin's call to evening prayer than she was with whether I was properly learning my multiplication tables."

[bgbill]

What will we have first? A black president or a woman?

Is a man who is half balck and half white, a black man, or a white man? :confused:

Luckily for the United States neither Obama or Hillary will ever get elected as President or Vice President, because they both suck.

Can anyone name anything good that Hillary or Obama has done?

[jackpine savage]

Obama has only been a Senator for 2 years so I think its to early to say whether his career has been good or bad. Hillary, who I don't like, has had a decent career as a legislator, better than some in the Senate. The last Senator elected President was JFK, maybe someone should mention that to those two. I prefer Hagel(GOP) or Richardson, Gov. of New Mexico.

[bgbill]

What is going on with his past? Are these rumors about him once being a Muslim and attending Islamic schools in Indonesia correct?

Snopes says it isn't true.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

I am not sure if Snopes is 100% accurate, but I will do some further resaech on the matter.

[stickitfishy]

Edwards sans mole and Clinton would win it as long as Clinton is VP.

[spaghetti]

Just a question from a non-american: why do you guys dislike Hilary so much?
I was surprised by your comments, since she's highly respected here in Europe and our general feeling is that she could be a good U.S. president. But then, again, we're not americans and you know her better than we do.
So what's wrong with that woman?

[Wayward Son]

Why would anyone think that she'd be a good president? the president is primarily an administrator. She doesn't have much experience at that, at least on a large scale. Her biggest attempt in her life was when Bill put her in charge of the 1993 task force to create HillaryCare, which was what, maybe 1500 people? And that proved to be an utter disaster in terms of her adminstration skills, she goobered things up pretty good.

Then there is the problem of how she thinks & HillaryCare is a prime example. She attempted to create a socialized health care system in America that would have made it illegal for a citizen to pay a doctor for medical services.

Think about that: If you wanted to use a doctor other than what her system assigned you to & you chose to use the money you earned to pay for it, both you & the doctor would have been subject to criminal prosecution for that, complete with fines & jail time.

I want no part of that sort of "fix" for our health care problems.

That's just a sample. There are plenty of reasons to not want her anywhere near the white house again.

[f94gator]

So what's wrong with that woman?

I just think she's a *****ing b*tch. That's all. :eek:

[stickitfishy]

She'd make a good president because she'd have Bill by her side and he was a great president. But I don't think she could get elected, because there are too many people who wouldn't vote for a woman. Hell, there are many people who are so f-ing dumb that they would vote for Bush again if they could!

[stickitfishy]

Why would anyone think that she'd be a good president? the president is primarily an administrator. She doesn't have much experience at that, at least on a large scale. Her biggest attempt in her life was when Bill put her in charge of the 1993 task force to create HillaryCare, which was what, maybe 1500 people? And that proved to be an utter disaster in terms of her adminstration skills, she goobered things up pretty good.

Then there is the problem of how she thinks & HillaryCare is a prime example. She attempted to create a socialized health care system in America that would have made it illegal for a citizen to pay a doctor for medical services.

Think about that: If you wanted to use a doctor other than what her system assigned you to & you chose to use the money you earned to pay for it, both you & the doctor would have been subject to criminal prosecution for that, complete with fines & jail time.

I want no part of that sort of "fix" for our health care problems.

That's just a sample. There are plenty of reasons to not want her anywhere near the white house again.

Don't believe it, prove it and post the source and link.

[Wayward Son]

Shit, you want a source & link for something that was reported in 93? Yeah, I just keep those hndy, no prob.

I dunno how old you are or if old enough, whether you paid any attention to that stuff. I was old enough & was paying attention, it wasn't exactly a secret.

[Wayward Son]

I'm not the only one who remembers it. Boortz posted comments today:

http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html

Note that the contents on that link change daily, though each day is archived & can be looked back on later. Here is his comment on her health care plan:

"Hillary tried to implement a health care plan that would have made it a crime for you to use your own dollars to hire your own doctor. Now think about that for a moment. How much else do you need to know? She actually wanted to make it a crime for you to arrange for your own medical care outside of her great Hillarycare system using your own dollars. Picture this. You're sitting in a jail cell. Your cellmate is in there for bank robbery. He looks at you and says "So, what did you do?" You tell him "Oh ... I tried to hire a doctor with my own money to take care of a medical problem." That, my friends, is Hillary's America."

[Wayward Son]

Try typing "Hillarycare" into google & take a look at what hits. Just from the bits of text under the links you can see references to the fact that you could be jailed for this.

Here's one such article that discusses its problems & makes mention of this:

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6789

November 29, 2006

The Return of Hillarycare?

by Michael D. Tanner

Michael Tanner is director of health and welfare studies at the Cato Institute and coauthor of Healthy Competition: What's Holding Back Health Care and How to Free It (2005).

In the wake of the Democratic victory in the midterm congressional elections, Hillary Clinton announced that Democrats would once again make health care reform a top legislative priority. "Health care is coming back," Clinton said, apparently giddy with triumph, adding, "It may be a bad dream for some."

Indeed, it may well be a nightmare for American health consumers. No one knows for certain what the new Democratic majority has in mind, but its initial proposals -- expanding Medicaid and the Medicare prescription drug program -- are certainly steps in the direction of more government interference in the medical marketplace.

Perhaps it has been so long that Americans have forgotten exactly what Hillarycare was. If so, it's worth reminding them. Under the Clinton plan, the government would have taken control of nearly one-seventh of the U.S. economy. It would have established the world's largest government program -- dwarfing even Social Security -- created a huge new bureaucracy and required massive tax increases.

Government knows best?

The entire idea behind the Clinton health care plan was that government knew best -- better than businesses, better than doctors, and better than patients.The Clinton plan would have required every business in America to provide health care coverage to its employees, regardless of cost. The mandate would have devastated small businesses and cost thousands of jobs.

Clinton's plan would also have forced Americans to give up their current health insurance, even if they were happy with it, in return for a government-designed standard benefit package that could be far more expensive.

What the policy covered would be determined not by consumer preference or even medical necessity, but by the lobbying power of various special interests.

Such policies would have been "community rated," meaning that people would pay exactly the same premium regardless of whether they were healthy or on their death bed, practiced healthy lifestyles or smoked six packs a day. That would have meant a huge premium increase for young and healthy people.

The plan established rigid price controls through a series of premium caps and other measures. That, in turn, would have forced insurers to ration the care they provided. Clinton apparently hoped that indirect rationing through managed care would avoid the direct rationing that results from price controls under every other national health care system in the world. But just in case, the proposal would also have established a National Health Board, with back-up authority to ration health care directly if indirect rationing failed to reduce costs sufficiently.

And the Clinton plan would have forced all Americans into managed care, effectively denying them the ability to choose their own doctors. Indeed, the Clinton proposal actually included criminal penalties for people who tried to pay for unapproved health care out of their own pockets.

Needed: More choice, not less

There is no doubt that our health care system is badly in need of reform. Too many Americans lack health insurance. We need to do more to lower health care costs and increase access to care. The system is riddled with waste and the quality of care is uneven. Government health care programs like Medicare and Medicaid threaten future generations with an enormous burden of debt and taxes.

But the answers to these problems lie with more choice and competition, not less. More government regulation, subsidies, and control would simply drain the medical marketplace of the quality, dynamism and innovation that save lives.

Hillarycare would have put the health care equivalent of FEMA in charge of our health care system. Surely this is not what the American people voted for on Nov. 7.

This article appeared in the Charlotte Observer on November 20, 2006.

[MichaelBaranows]

sounds like socialism to me.

[mrfish87]

That looks like proof to me. Your turn stickit...we are moving to the fairness doctrine

[stickitfishy]

Jesus Christ Wayward, could you find more biased news sources? I don't think so. Just because you have EXTREMELY slanted opinions and you can find opinions that agree with yours, does not make them facts. Medicine needs to be socialized, prices are out of control and millions of people lose health coverage every year because of it. I'll take socialized medicine over the Bush dictatorship any day!

[Wayward Son]

Like I said, google it yourself. If you have the time you should be able to find the actual document they produced & read it for yourself, same as I did back then. I did my homework when it mattered, when we were faced with this menace. Your turn, look it up.

It's in there. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

[Wayward Son]

Medicine needs to be socialized, prices are out of control and millions of people lose health coverage every year because of it. I'll take socialized medicine over the Bush dictatorship any day!

I can think of very little that I want less than having the govt hold all power over my health care.

You think Bush is a dictatorship? Dude, we aren't even speaking the same language. You must not have any idea what one looks like. If all you can do is spout nonsense, is there any point in attempting to discuss real issues with you?

[Steel Shootin']

I prefer Hagel(GOP) or Richardson, Gov. of New Mexico.

Me too. Gov. Richardson is extremely smart and balanced. He also has shown political courage, which is especially difficult to find. Right now, Hagel is my favorite Repub potential candidate, and Richardson my favorite Dem. If forced between the two, at the moment I would likely lean towards Richardson.

Keep something in mind as far as Hillary. In life, all things are relative. That is why many Repubs were secretly hoping Bush would lose in 2004. They feared that another four years of Bush would make Hillary (or any Dem) look like the second coming of Lincoln by 2008. I saw where Bush's approval ratings today were down in the 20s for the first time...at an all time low. Republicans in both the Congress and Senate can't head for the exit doors quickly enough, denouncing Bush and his failed strategies.

[jackpine savage]

Anybody with a Lebowski avatar has to have his mind right :D

[f94gator]

Just because you have EXTREMELY slanted opinions ...

http://ganjataz.com/general-bollocks/images/by-GT/forum-shitz/pot-kettle-black.jpg

[jackpine savage]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/22/obama.madrassa/index.html

[Marcus]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/22/obama.madrassa/index.html


Freakin' Fox news...what a joke. Sad thing is...the fear mongers eat it up. Might as well be a witch burnin'.

[Wayward Son]

What did Fox do? From what I saw this was originally reported by Insight, no?

Or is it just an automatic reaction that when you see something you don't like it's Fox News' fault?

How many times have we caught CNN lying to us, any way? Why are they supposed to be the bastions of truth & honesty?

[mulefeathers]

How many times have we caught CNN lying to us, any way? Why are they supposed to be the bastions of truth & honesty?


Because they are the Communist News Network.

[Marcus]

What did Fox do? From what I saw this was originally reported by Insight, no?

From the link:

The Obama aide described Fox News' broadcasting of the Insight story "appallingly irresponsible."

Fox News executive Bill Shine told CNN "Reliable Sources" anchor Howard Kurtz that some of the network's hosts were simply expressing their opinions and repeatedly cited Insight as the source of the allegations.



Or is it just an automatic reaction that when you see something you don't like it's Fox News' fault?

I didn't mean to offend you by saying something about your beloved alleged news channel.



How many times have we caught CNN lying to us, any way? Why are they supposed to be the bastions of truth & honesty?

I give up. Why do YOU think they're the bastions of truth and honesty?

I don't watch CNN or any other news channel for that matter.

My comments were directed at that article which clearly exposed Fox's biased nature. You can bet your ass they wouldn't have reported a negative story about Bush before doing some fact checking...and then they still might not have reported it.

[Wayward Son]

I don't watch Fox much myself, but it seems that what I said was accurate: Insight was the source. Other agencies, including CNN, often re-report what comes from somewhere else.

In this case, Fox is damned, but when others do they're not, that seems to be the typical response from people who don't like Fox.

[stickitfishy]

I can think of very little that I want less than having the govt hold all power over my health care.

You think Bush is a dictatorship? Dude, we aren't even speaking the same language. You must not have any idea what one looks like. If all you can do is spout nonsense, is there any point in attempting to discuss real issues with you?

You are right, we don't speak the same language. You voted for Bush because you were duped into thinking the Dems would take your guns away. By the way, how many guns do you have? I voted for what was the MOST right for the majority of the people in this country. Bush has circumvented our checks and balances form of government, time and time again. Please tell me how that is not like a dictatorship? Also, please tell me what other president did this and what they did? Republicans and Democrats have always been black and white on the issues, it won't be so this next election I can assure you of this!

[Wayward Son]

In their 1st 10 days as the majority in control of congress, the dems have already introduced 4, count 'em FOUR anti gun bills.

We'll spend the next 2 years working to stop this sort of crap, as well as on a number of issues.

You seem to have me stuffed into a box that suits you, but it's quite evident from your posts that you have no bloody idea of how I decide to vote. Stick to your preconceptions while you gladly hand off the last vestiges of our heritage.

[Summerland Key]

Wayward Son:
The cat/shark image is great. I showed it to our 12 year old daughter and she was horrified. Can you replace the cat with an image of the Hildabeast?

[Wayward Son]

Wayward Son:
The cat/shark image is great. I showed it to our 12 year old daughter and she was horrified. Can you replace the cat with an image of the Hildabeast?

But then *I'd* be horrified!!! Maybe something else, but I don't think I could take that.

[Summerland Key]

Good point! That would be a little too realistic. I would be horrified also. Don

[Wayward Son]

I'll just put my little guy back.

[stickitfishy]

In their 1st 10 days as the majority in control of congress, the dems have already introduced 4, count 'em FOUR anti gun bills.

We'll spend the next 2 years working to stop this sort of crap, as well as on a number of issues.

You seem to have me stuffed into a box that suits you, but it's quite evident from your posts that you have no bloody idea of how I decide to vote. Stick to your preconceptions while you gladly hand off the last vestiges of our heritage.

Too many idiots have guns in this country, there needs to be more done to keep them out of their hands. Hand off the last vestiges of our heritage? Give me a break. How many guns do you have again? You have always painted the picture clearly yourself Wayward. What board are you a MOD at?

[stickitfishy]

I'll just put my little guy back.

Yeah, please zip up your pants. :lol:

[Wayward Son]

You see only one slice, yet you think you know all the contents.

[Killer&Griller]

Jesus Christ Wayward, could you find more biased news sources? I don't think so. Just because you have EXTREMELY slanted opinions and you can find opinions that agree with yours, does not make them facts. Medicine needs to be socialized, prices are out of control and millions of people lose health coverage every year because of it. I'll take socialized medicine over the Bush dictatorship any day!

Are you on crack?????? Clearly you post your opinions to get a rise out of someone. The scary part would be if you accually believe all of the BS that you spew out of that piehole of yours. Want to lower health coverage, stop all of the BS lawsuits. Throw the book at someone that is caught raping the judicial system for personal gain. Stop letting companies dictate how things are going to be run just by the bottom dollar that effects the entire country. The government will tell me how many minority people to hire but doesn't stop the oil companies from raping the consumer? If you want to take care of the general population, you need to stop funding things that are bs, company incentives for overseas investing, equal out our goods and commodities, etc. If you want to fix the healthcare system along with fixing the social security system, make the political parties participate. As it stands now, a senator for example doesn't pay ss and has a guaranteed retirement of $ 1.2 mil, on average, for themselves for life and that is transferred to their spouse after they die. Give me a break, every other country in the world, Russia, China, all of them are trying to move towards a Capitalist society and we are in overdrive fast track trying to get to a politically correct socialist one.

She'd make a good president because she'd have Bill by her side and he was a great president.

The scary part is that it has been brought up lately that Bill could run for VP. Technically, if something happened to her, he could move into office as president because the present law states that you can't be elected, but for so many terms. He wouldn't be elected, so therefore, could run. Nice. Do you want to know who is going to win, whoever will guarantee the welfare check to one group and whoever convinces the illegal immigrant vote from the other group.

[bgbill]

Too many idiots have guns in this country, there needs to be more done to keep them out of their hands. Hand off the last vestiges of our heritage? Give me a break. How many guns do you have again? You have always painted the picture clearly yourself Wayward. What board are you a MOD at?

You should read and understand the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights before you make such stupid statements.

These idiots you speak of are they crminals or law abiding citizens?

What does it matter if a person is exercising his constitutional right to own 1 gun or 10,000?

Do you really want the government deciding what you can own?

BTW I have several guns and am a Law abiding citizen, I have never been responsible for the death of another person, can you say the same thing about Ted Kennedy who is a Democrat?

Laws only affect law abiding citizens, you can infringe on peoples constitutional rights and pass a bunch of laws, but criminals do not follow laws.

[Killer&Griller]

Too many idiots have guns in this country, there needs to be more done to keep them out of their hands. Hand off the last vestiges of our heritage? Give me a break. How many guns do you have again? You have always painted the picture clearly yourself Wayward. What board are you a MOD at?

The guns that you know about are not the ones to be afraid of. I'll bet you the ones he has are registered. Define idiots. If you are lumping someone that goes downtown to file for a permit, has a background check done, receives the permit and then purchases a gun, we are going to have problems. Don't give me the BS about, well if his house gets broken into, then they are on the street. Chances are, if he gets broken into, the career criminal gets shot and the chain of burglaries just came to a screeching halt.

[Wayward Son]

You don't get it bg. It's only bad if a republican does somethin that can be perceived as infringing on your rights. If a dem does it, well by god that's what was needed to be done, they have a good reason so shut up & quit bitching about it.

This person has no concern for the constitution, bill of rights, freedoms that are supposed to be protected by these documents. He doesn't care about personal freedom or liberty, nor property rights, nor does he have any interest in being a self reliant, independant, free citizen. he wants the govt to step up & shoulder the harsh responsibilities of life & if that means taking from other people to give him what he wants, well, by damn that's what he wants to stop farting around & get to it!

He bitches about a dictatorship that isn't while simultaneously demanding that the opposition party get cracking at slipping the shackles on.

Sad, really. What's even sadder is that there is no shortage of people who think this way.

[Killer&Griller]

BTW I have several guns and am a Law abiding citizen

I don't know if JBL Explorer 20's or mini carbine's count do they? :D :D

[bgbill]

The guns that you know about are not the ones to be afraid of. I'll bet you the ones he has are registered. Define idiots. If you are lumping someone that goes downtown to file for a permit, has a background check done, receives the permit and then purchases a gun, we are going to have problems. Don't give me the BS about, well if his house gets broken into, then they are on the street. Chances are, if he gets broken into, the career criminal gets shot and the chain of burglaries just came to a screeching halt.

In Florida there is no Permit Required to own a gun or even a way to register a gun.

The Supreme Court of the United States ruled that the registration of firearms is against criminals 5th ammendmant right's of self incrimination.

[Wayward Son]

Our 2nd ammendment rights are the canary in the mine. As much as you may think that is my sole issue, you are utterly mistaken. However, it is my 1st issue when it comes to evaluating a politician.

If a politician will not trust me (and by extension, you) with my guns, then I know that I can not trust that politician with anything. That's the start, it's a great 1st filter.

[stickitfishy]

Are you on crack?????? Clearly you post your opinions to get a rise out of someone. The scary part would be if you accually believe all of the BS that you spew out of that piehole of yours. Want to lower health coverage, stop all of the BS lawsuits. Throw the book at someone that is caught raping the judicial system for personal gain. Stop letting companies dictate how things are going to be run just by the bottom dollar that effects the entire country. The government will tell me how many minority people to hire but doesn't stop the oil companies from raping the consumer? If you want to take care of the general population, you need to stop funding things that are bs, company incentives for overseas investing, equal out our goods and commodities, etc. If you want to fix the healthcare system along with fixing the social security system, make the political parties participate. As it stands now, a senator for example doesn't pay ss and has a guaranteed retirement of $ 1.2 mil, on average, for themselves for life and that is transferred to their spouse after they die. Give me a break, every other country in the world, Russia, China, all of them are trying to move towards a Capitalist society and we are in overdrive fast track trying to get to a politically correct socialist one.



The scary part is that it has been brought up lately that Bill could run for VP. Technically, if something happened to her, he could move into office as president because the present law states that you can't be elected, but for so many terms. He wouldn't be elected, so therefore, could run. Nice. Do you want to know who is going to win, whoever will guarantee the welfare check to one group and whoever convinces the illegal immigrant vote from the other group.

I agree with everything you said above, but yet I am on crack? Mmmm....Okay. Did I say the answer to all our problems is socializing medicine? How about the entire medical industry revamped. So maybe people can actually be cured of their problems instead of treated for symptoms while they get worse. It is complete bullshit!

[Marcus]

You don't get it bg. It's only bad if a republican does somethin that can be perceived as infringing on your rights. If a dem does it, well by god that's what was needed to be done, they have a good reason so shut up & quit bitching about it.


Wayward, you're seemingling endless goal of polarizing political parties based upon thier views on gun control is tiresome. I'll fight for your right to own as many guns as you want to...but I'm certainly no right winged fanatic and I'm no left leaning tree hugger....libertarian here. I know plenty of democratics that will fight for your rights to own guns as well. Give it a rest...please.

[stickitfishy]

It is really a toss up with you two. I don't know who is dumb and who is dumber. I did not say I wanted to take away YOUR guns, you just read that because you both are obviously idiots. And Wayward, Bush has taken away more rights from us than any president in my lifetime, get your head out of your ass so maybe you can see the real picture.

[Wayward Son]

I'm sure you do. There are plenty of pro gun democrat *voters* but their party leadership is seriously lacking here. BTW, *I* did not inject guns into this thread, the other guy did. My comments were a reply to his assertions.

I'll gladly "give it a rest" hen the damn dems stop coming after us gun owners. If you are so tired of my replies to others when the subject comes up, feel free to put me on your ignore list.

[Wayward Son]

It is really a toss up with you two. I don't know who is dumb and who is dumber. I did not say I wanted to take away YOUR guns, you just read that because you both are obviously idiots. And Wayward, Bush has taken away more rights from us than any president in my lifetime, get your head out of your ass so maybe you can see the real picture.

What rights has he taken? Please be specific & provide supporting evidence.

[Wayward Son]

Did I say the answer to all our problems is socializing medicine?

Yes, you did say that:

Medicine needs to be socialized, prices are out of control and millions of people lose health coverage every year because of it. I'll take socialized medicine over the Bush dictatorship any day!

[stickitfishy]

What rights has he taken? Please be specific & provide supporting evidence.

Ever hear of the socalled Patriot Act?

[bgbill]

And Wayward, Bush has taken away more rights from us than any president in my lifetime


What rights has he taken? Please be specific & provide supporting evidence.

Not to stick up for fishstick, but the Patriot Act comes to mind.

I don't necessarily agree he has taken more rights away than any other President in the last 34 years, but the Patriot act sure is a bad thing for our rights.

[stickitfishy]

Yes, you did say that:

You are a complete IDIOT. I did not say socializing medicine was the answer to all our problems EVER. You are Dumb, Dumber and Dumbest. Please, somebody take this guys guns before he hurts himself.

[Marcus]

I'll gladly "give it a rest" hen the damn dems stop coming after us gun owners.

Not paranoid are we?

It's just the Dem's right? If we rid the country of them damned Dem's...everything would be good. eh?

The party lines have been mutated and twisted beyond belief in the past 40 years.

[biggsy]

Ever hear of the socalled Patriot Act?


Not to stick up for fishstick, but the Patriot Act comes to mind.

Almost a simultaneous post...you know what they say...GMTA (Great Minds Think Alike)

Way too freakin' cool! :up: :up:

[bgbill]

Almost a simultaneous post...you know what they say...GMTA (Great Minds Think Alike)

Way too freakin' cool! :up: :up:


John,

I think the world must surely be coming to an end, we both actually agreed on something. :eek: :eek: :D

[Wayward Son]

I didn't say that either. But feel free to keep putting words in my mouth.

I said quite clearly that the leadership of the democratic party is hostile to our gun rights. 10 days in control & they've already brought 4 anti-gun bills to the game. Their last 2 presidential candidates, Gore & Kerry respectively, have a track record of voting against these rights.

I'm very familiar with the patriot act & have read quite a lot of it from both sides. So far as I've been able to determine, there is room for concern with it but to say that it has taken away our rights seems to me to be a stretch. Rather than simply invoking the scary name, please be specific: Under that patriot act, what precisely are the rights that we have lost? Can you name any examples of American citizens who have had their rights violated by this act? Court cases, dates, outcomes?

I'm willing to be convinced on this, but so far I'm lacking actual evidence of specific abuses to reference.

[stickitfishy]

By the way Bret, I do not think I will be a great electrician because of the union. I will get better training, but would be great either way because I have more ability than most could ever dream of. Union gives me more options for MY future. Unions are dying now, I'll give you that. But in 10 years 40% of the construction workforce will be retiring and construction is growing by 13% a year. The baby-boomers kids went to college mainly so there is going to be a huge demand for SKILLED construction workers and a very short supply. Labor will have the upper hand and construction unions will grow again. It is simple supply and demand!

[Wayward Son]

I would also add the the patriot act was passed & renewed with quite a lot of votes from democrats, which seems to me to make it something more than just a Bush/republican issue.

If you're really that cranked about it, you should also be plenty pissed at a large number of dems for it, too.

[stickitfishy]

Answer my questions Wayward that I asked earlier in this thread. Where are you a MOD and how many guns do you own and I'll answer your rediculous questions? And please tell me what war were you in and where were you hit and with what? Has to be a reason for such incredible ignorance!

[jackpine savage]

As far as gun ownership goes I think that some regulation is a good thing but that shouldn't infringe upon the rights of people to own guns. If people are concerned with the possibilty of a gun being used in a crime then make the penalty for using a gun in a crime very serious. If someone is caught using any firearm in an unlawful manner then use the criminal justice system to make them bleed, so to speak. Prohibition has been shown over and over again to do nothing to solve the problem. Criminals can always get their hands on firearms so it is hard to deter them. I believe everyone should have a gun license and be made to take firearm safety courses and keep current with them. Other than that I have no problems with Wayward having an arsenal if thats what he wants and he obeys the law. I am not a gun owner although I have experience with weapons and I am not a Republican and would probably not vote for a politician one way or another based on this issue.

[jackpine savage]

Stickitfishy-Not to be a pain but Wayward has been pretty polite to you, you should show him the same courtesy.

[chuam]

Stickitfishy-Not to be a pain but Wayward has been pretty polite to you, you should show him the same courtesy.

:stupid:

You need to tone down the personal attacks on people. The debates on here get pretty heated but they are debates. There is no need to bring them down to petty name calling.

[Wayward Son]

Stickit, I have been quite civil to you, but you seem to have difficulty in responding in kind.

I am a veteran of the US Air Force. We did not have a war while I was in, exactly, but when I volunteered Iran was holding a bunch of us hostage & I expected that we might well have one over that if nothing else.

As to how many guns I have, frankly that's both irrelevant & none of your business. I have more than I utterly need but fewer than I want.

I am a moderator & webmaster for www.predatormaster.com which is a web site dedicated to the soprt of hunting predators & to a lesser extent other game. My main interest is big game but I do enjoy predator hunting when I get the chance.

As for you allegation of ignorance, I really don't think so. While I am ignorant on some things, we all are, when it comes to this stuff I have been very active politically for 20 years.

[stickitfishy]

Stickitfishy-Not to be a pain but Wayward has been pretty polite to you, you should show him the same courtesy.

Not to be a pain, but stay out of it please. I don't have time to argue with 3 of you. Go argue with your wife or go tell your kids what to do instead.

[Wayward Son]

You asked for me to back up my statements on HillaryCare. i did, though you don't like the sources. This articles were simple what a couple of minutes with google turned up, nothing special to me. Google works for you as well as for me, you can look farther & you will find that both I & those samples are correct.

Now turnabout is fair play. You said we've lost more rights under Bush than any president in your lifetime. That's quite a broad, sweeping statement. If we've lost that many rights, surely you can easily provide me with a sample list of said rights. Being that many, lets see a few. Say a dozen? Should be pretty easily supported, shouldn't it?

[Wayward Son]

Also I'm curious: What military service have you provided for this country? Do you own guns at all? Have you been politically active? By that I mean in any way, do you call and write your representatives when legislation pops up that you support or oppose? Have you ever written the president & expressed your views? Done volunteer work in a campaign, anything? There are plenty of ways to take part in the system, if you're this unhappy with things I would think you'd be in the game & kicking some.

[stickitfishy]

Some lost rights under dipshit.

Following are examples of freedoms which President Bush and his fellow Republicans in Congress have already expunged (as reported by the Associated Press):

FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigations.

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records questions.

FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.

That good citizens are compliant and unconcerned regarding G.W. Bush's propensity to trample constitutional freedoms bespeaks a great ignorance or a great apathy, or both.

These rights have already been lost! Whether individual Americans have been personally subjected to the resultant tyranny or not doesn't change the fact that they have already lost these freedoms! This fact, alone, should be enough for any studious lover-of-liberty to be outraged.

That good citizens are compliant and unconcerned regarding G.W. Bush's propensity to trample constitutional freedoms bespeaks a great ignorance or a great apathy, or both.


So how many guns you got there Wayward? What war were you in and where is the shrapnel?

[jackpine savage]

This is why I have tried to keep out of anything but sports related talk in the off topic lately. Wayward, keep it up. I probably will never vote for the same guys as you but I will fight to allow you to keep your firearms.

[biggsy]

www.predatormaster.com Wayward...the domain is for sale...I wanted to check out the site you were talking about.

thanks!

[Wayward Son]

Actually, that was a miss-spelled link. Go ahead & buy it ;)

[Wayward Son]

Well, I'll start by employing your tactic: Can you choose a less biased source?

One simple example:

"FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigations."

I note that they are still assembling, so how was the right to assemble lost? Our govt has been monitoring groups of people without warrants for decades, at least back to the 1960's.

Now, if you could show me where people were denied the right to assemble, with no cause for that denial, then I'd agree that the right has been violated. But they are assembling.

I will also note that we are at war, with people who want to hit us anywhere they can. Things have often been done by our govt during wartime that otherwise would not have been.

I answered your questions, try answering mine: What was your military service?

[Wayward Son]

Our home page is here:

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/

[stickitfishy]

Also I'm curious: What military service have you provided for this country? Do you own guns at all? Have you been politically active? By that I mean in any way, do you call and write your representatives when legislation pops up that you support or oppose? Have you ever written the president & expressed your views? Done volunteer work in a campaign, anything? There are plenty of ways to take part in the system, if you're this unhappy with things I would think you'd be in the game & kicking some.

The people who control our military do not do so ethically. They like to use it for personal gain, why in the world would anyone risk their life for this? My father was in another b.s. war, "Vietnam", I get to see the effects of Agent Orange every time I see him, no thanks! I can not sway a corrupt politicians mind, but I can get people to change their mind in regards to said politician. But some are beyond reason.

[Wayward Son]

In other words, you didn't serve.

[stickitfishy]

Well, I'll start by employing your tactic: Can you choose a less biased source?

One simple example:

"FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigations."

I note that they are still assembling, so how was the right to assemble lost? Our govt has been monitoring groups of people without warrants for decades, at least back to the 1960's.

Now, if you could show me where people were denied the right to assemble, with no cause for that denial, then I'd agree that the right has been violated. But they are assembling.

I will also note that we are at war, with people who want to hit us anywhere they can. Things have often been done by our govt during wartime that otherwise would not have been.

I answered your questions, try answering mine: What was your military service?

What really happened is that the American public was duped into believing we went looking for Osama. Have we found him? No! Cheney (The Puppet Master) convinced his puppet (GW) that we needed to invade Iraq. It just so happens that wars ALWAYS make the price of oil go up and huge defense contracts are granted. Now don't you think it is rather odd that Bush, Cheny and all their pals have made billions off of oil and defense contracts? Do you think it is a conflict of interest? I do!

[Mikerotch]

Wow, what a thread. Wayward, you have made some very good and acurate points. For the record I think I agree with you 100%; however, stickit, who is obviously a full blown socialist who believes gov't by dictate can provide better services than a free maket has scored 1 significant point that may well be accurate. That is, the idea that G.W. Bush has significantly damaged our rights as they are described in the constitution. As a former card carrying republican who to date has never voted for a democrat in any election (I voted for 1 for Public Service Commisioner who later switched parties), an objective look at the facts would indicate that King George has been a disaster. He is a hardcore liberal, who at his core, believes government is the best option to solve many of mankind's problems and as such has adopted the idea that a circumvention of law is necessary to protect us from ourselves. Time, nor space, nor my horrible typing skills allow me to list with adequate documentation all of the flagrant and subtle assaults he has inflicted upon us. A few to ponder:

1. Government spending anyway you analize it has exploded under W. Remove all spending related to defense or his enormous umbrella known as the "war on terror"
and he is still the biggest spender BY FAR sense LBJ. Government spending, by default, eliminates freedom.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/bush-big-govt.html

2.Patriot Act --- It is filled with subtle and outright flagrant disregard for the Bill of Rights. Some would say "that's o.k. because he is a good Christian man and he won't do anything wrong" to which I say that even if that's true, do you want to intrust Hillary or _______ with that same power ? Not to mention the myriad of gov't agencies that will utilize the new found power. Here's one of the Fox boys's take:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/napolitano2.html

And a view from a former Reagan man :
http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts142.html

And last but not least, my favorite Congressman who happens to be a Republican and is my choice for President in 2008 , Ron Paul :

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul295.html

Do yourself a favor and read some of Ron Paul's articles. It will renew your spirit to know there is 1 politician who actually believes in a constitutional republic. Unfortunately, it will reveal the depths to which this president has sunk.

Mikerotch, lets go spearing, before they take our S.S. Sea Hornet 48" Teaks

[stickitfishy]

In other words, you didn't serve.

To contribute to something unethical is wrong! To risk your life for that is idiotic. Our troops were duped and so were many, many others. I never was and obviously you still are.

[Wayward Son]

I'm well acquainted with Ron Paul & agree with you about him. I don't know if he can win or not at this point in our history but I haven't seen anyone else step up that I would prefer over him in the office.

I've read a fair bit of Lew's articles as well. When it come to the PA I see many similarities to the arguments over global warming. There are strong opinions -and claims- from both sides, making it damned bloody difficult to sort out the reality to a point where I can say I have a truly informed opinion that I think is accurate.

[Mikerotch]

Stickit, your post # 102 is unfortunately, accurate.

Mikerotch

[Wayward Son]

To contribute to something unethical is wrong! To risk your life for that is idiotic. Our troops were duped and so were many, many others. I never was and obviously you still are.

I don't need an explanation as I really don't care. I was simply curious, you really seemed to have an issue with whether I served or not so I thought it fair to ask you.

[stickitfishy]

Stickit, your post # 102 is unfortunately, accurate.

Mikerotch

So is 104. I gotta go to bed. 5 A.M. is pretty early.

[Marcus]

Bob,

Tact - The art of making a point without making an enemy



Stu,

I was reading some of your predator forum. You must be very pleased that everyone over there agrees with your political views. There's never anyone to argue with.

[Wayward Son]

You haven't read enough then.

[Wayward Son]

I also haven't been arguing as much there lately, so don't assume that just because someone posted something & I didn't debate them that i agree.

[mulefeathers]

To contribute to something unethical is wrong! To risk your life for that is idiotic. Our troops were duped and so were many, many others. I never was and obviously you still are.

The troops were not duped they joined a volunteer armed service with the knowledge up front they might have to into war. You don't want to fight don't join. I was the war at first and still thinks it needs to be finished but just that it needs to be finished go with troops but end it ASAP.

[stickitfishy]

The troops were not duped they joined a volunteer armed service with the knowledge up front they might have to into war. You don't want to fight don't join. I was the war at first and still thinks it needs to be finished but just that it needs to be finished go with troops but end it ASAP.

Many joined because they belived the President and his lies. That is being duped!

[stickitfishy]

Bob,

Tact - The art of making a point without making an enemy



Stu,

I was reading some of your predator forum. You must be very pleased that everyone over there agrees with your political views. There's never anyone to argue with.

Tact - Something I do not have after 4 hours of sleep and 16 hours of work/driving/school. I apologize. I will have more tact for sure Saturday.

[stickitfishy]

I don't need an explanation as I really don't care. I was simply curious, you really seemed to have an issue with whether I served or not so I thought it fair to ask you.

I was wondering if you served, because every pic I've seen of you, you are wearing an olive green jacket. You've got a gun and war fixation and you think Bush is the best thing since sliced bread.

[Wayward Son]

Once again, you assume things I have not said. I never have said Bush is the best ever. Not once, never, on this site nor any other. IMO, he was better than the alternatives at the times of the elections. That is a far cry from saying that I think he's the best thing ever.

Nor have I agreed with him on everything, not by a long shot.

You keep trying to stuff me into a box that your mind wishes to assign me. I've said it before & I'll say it again: You're on the wrong track. I am not a republican, I do not think the republican party is utterly great & correct in all they do, nor many other things that you have clearly assumed about me.

Keep in mind the old saying about assuming.

[Wayward Son]

Yeah, you have seen my old field jacket in some pics. Wanna know why? Because I still have it & it works fairly well as a dive parka during the winter.

[mulefeathers]

Many joined because they belived the President and his lies. That is being duped!

No... many joined because they wanted to serve our country ( and i thank them every day), many joined to get an education through the GI bill, many joined because it was the best job found, and a few but very few joined to get a paycheck. Not unlike that of a laid off union worker that demands to get paid if they work or not. Nobody was duped by anybody.

[jackpine savage]

when someone volunteers for the military they are aware of what the job entails. It is the US military, it is there to defend the nation and fight its wars. Anyone who thinks that our soldiers aren't aware of this when they volunteer haven't a clue of which they speak.

[stickitfishy]

Many does not mean all and it does not have to mean most. Many joined for the above reasons and many joined because they believed Bush's lies. They did not figure that the president would lie to an entire nation, they figured wrong. Bad decision on their part.

[aaron proffitt]

Many does not mean all and it does not have to mean most. Many joined for the above reasons and many joined because they believed Bush's lies. They did not figure that the president would lie to an entire nation, they figured wrong. Bad decision on their part.

Alot of folks who question the merits of why those of us who do serve and why,quite frankly will have a hard time understanding it.
It's not always about the ideology of standing for the country and the presidential policies.While love of country is a factor,the feeling of belonging to devoted brotherhoods is a big factor.Fact is, units that have been to Iraq the most frequently also have the highest rates of retention.Figure that one out. These guys aren't stupid or duped,they are loyal.

Away from the 'puter a few days and things go crazy. :rolleyes:

[stickitfishy]

So you are saying that nobody in the military joined based on lies they were told and how they felt after believing those lies. Is that what you are saying?

[jackpine savage]

Noone forces anybody to join the military. I think if anything some people are a bit naive of what is expected of them when they talk to the recruiter. He doesn't point out that the military is a job in which you can get killed, probably scare away the high school kids. Instead they focus on vocational training or educational bonuses. However, everyone who joins is an adult, f for one reason or another you do not do your homework before joining that is noones fault but your own.
Stickitfishy-can you name me one soldier who has expressed the opinion that they were lied to and somehow manipulated into joining the service?

[aaron proffitt]

So you are saying that nobody in the military joined based on lies they were told and how they felt after believing those lies. Is that what you are saying?


What I am saying is this; very few people I know ,or know of, joined during the lead up to Iraqi Freedom for the chance to dispose of Saddam and rid the world of his "WMDs". Most joined because,whether they joined or not,it was going to happen and they had a sense of adventure....typical mindset for alot of 18-24 year old people.The ones who were joining to fight for ideology were joining to take part in fighting those that directly attacked us.
To say 'nobody' would be painting with a pretty broad brush.

[stickitfishy]

Noone forces anybody to join the military. I think if anything some people are a bit naive of what is expected of them when they talk to the recruiter. He doesn't point out that the military is a job in which you can get killed, probably scare away the high school kids. Instead they focus on vocational training or educational bonuses. However, everyone who joins is an adult, f for one reason or another you do not do your homework before joining that is noones fault but your own.
Stickitfishy-can you name me one soldier who has expressed the opinion that they were lied to and somehow manipulated into joining the service?

Ehren Watada who has refused deployment in a below thread.

[jackpine savage]

So you are basing all of this on one individual. Maybe he is an exception but he doesn't speak for everyone. One instance doesn't make him or his situation unique.

[stickitfishy]

So you are basing all of this on one individual. Maybe he is an exception but he doesn't speak for everyone. One instance doesn't make him or his situation unique.

Please read your own post. What did you say to me? Name me one soldier? I did. I said many were duped not everyone. Do I have to explain what many means again in this thread?

[jackpine savage]

I still don't know how they were duped. They are soldiers. Their job is to fight our nations wars and if need be to kill. What about that is hard to fathom. If the guy didn't want to run the risk of going off to war he should never have served. It isn't the damn Peace Corp. If you have a problem with the rationale behind the war then you blame our politicians and those who put them in power. Soldiers fight, why the hell do you think we have a military, for parades?

[Killer&Griller]

Some lost rights under dipshit.

Following are examples of freedoms which President Bush and his fellow Republicans in Congress have already expunged (as reported by the Associated Press):

FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigations.

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records questions.

FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.

That good citizens are compliant and unconcerned regarding G.W. Bush's propensity to trample constitutional freedoms bespeaks a great ignorance or a great apathy, or both.

These rights have already been lost! Whether individual Americans have been personally subjected to the resultant tyranny or not doesn't change the fact that they have already lost these freedoms! This fact, alone, should be enough for any studious lover-of-liberty to be outraged.

That good citizens are compliant and unconcerned regarding G.W. Bush's propensity to trample constitutional freedoms bespeaks a great ignorance or a great apathy, or both.


So how many guns you got there Wayward? What war were you in and where is the shrapnel?

To the comment that it was because of the Republicians or Bush alone, I say all was to blame according to the vote.

Senate
Grouped By Vote Position

YEAs ---98

NAYs ---1
Feingold (D-WI)

Not Voting - 1
Landrieu (D-LA)

In the House

YEAs --- 357

NAYs --- 66.

Equal blame there. As for Bush, IMO, he was the lesser of two evils. Am I in agreement with everything he does, NO. Is it fair to carry on about how spending in his administration is higher than any other? I don't care if Larry the cable guy was President, with all the political pressure and BS going on after 9/11, money still would have been thrown at everything to try to fix all the problems that we still face. Most of the reps that were interviewed after the passing, admittedly hadn't read the entire bill or agreed with "most" of it. There aren't party lines anymore. Now it is who is in bed with who, how well you are connected, how much you are going to benefit, who you can BLAME, how you can avoid responsibility. The real problem is the public are sheep, lead to slaughter, and never taught to question it. The fact is our country creates most of the problems that we have by catering to political correctness, empowering groups, etc. This is the reason that we deserve the situation that we are in.

FYI, most of the Pat Act was revisions on already existing laws like RICO, FISA, INA and so on.

What's with such an interest in how many guns Wayward has? Is there a point that you are trying to get too or are ya just winding him up?

[stickitfishy]

I still don't know how they were duped. They are soldiers. Their job is to fight our nations wars and if need be to kill. What about that is hard to fathom. If the guy didn't want to run the risk of going off to war he should never have served. It isn't the damn Peace Corp. If you have a problem with the rationale behind the war then you blame our politicians and those who put them in power. Soldiers fight, why the hell do you think we have a military, for parades?

Many people joined because they wanted to go after Osama and because they were told Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. How long did we look for Osama before those guys were sent to Iraq. Did Iraq have weapons of mass destruction? Those people were duped who joined for those reasons. They wanted to fight for what they thought was right, now they are fighting because of lies. Actually they are dying for lies. Most people do not join the military to fight for lies!

[stickitfishy]

To the comment that it was because of the Republicians or Bush alone, I say all was to blame according to the vote.

Senate
Grouped By Vote Position

YEAs ---98

NAYs ---1
Feingold (D-WI)

Not Voting - 1
Landrieu (D-LA)

In the House

YEAs --- 357

NAYs --- 66.

Equal blame there. As for Bush, IMO, he was the lesser of two evils. Am I in agreement with everything he does, NO. Is it fair to carry on about how spending in his administration is higher than any other? I don't care if Larry the cable guy was President, with all the political pressure and BS going on after 9/11, money still would have been thrown at everything to try to fix all the problems that we still face. Most of the reps that were interviewed after the passing, admittedly hadn't read the entire bill or agreed with "most" of it. There aren't party lines anymore. Now it is who is in bed with who, how well you are connected, how much you are going to benefit, who you can BLAME, how you can avoid responsibility. The real problem is the public are sheep, lead to slaughter, and never taught to question it. The fact is our country creates most of the problems that we have by catering to political correctness, empowering groups, etc. This is the reason that we deserve the situation that we are in.

FYI, most of the Pat Act was revisions on already existing laws like RICO, FISA, INA and so on.

What's with such an interest in how many guns Wayward has? Is there a point that you are trying to get too or are ya just winding him up?

Based on lies they thought were true, they voted this way. How many times have you done something a certain way in life because you were lied to that you would have done differently if you knew the truth?

[jackpine savage]

Many people joined because they wanted to go after Osama and because they were told Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. How long did we look for Osama before those guys were sent to Iraq. Did Iraq have weapons of mass destruction? Those people were duped who joined for those reasons. They wanted to fight for what they thought was right, now they are fighting because of lies. Actually they are dying for lies. Most people do not join the military to fight for lies!
They joined to fight for their nation. It is not up to the soldier to decided when and where they fight. I can see you have never served in the military. That is not a knock on you, it is a volunteer service and we all make choices. I just don't know how you can determone what goes on in the minds of people who make that choice if you didn't. I am opposed to this war, however soldiers go where they are ordered. They all now that.

[stickitfishy]

I have friends who re-enlisted and are really mad.

[jackpine savage]

Then they should not have re-enlisted.

[rigdvr]

WTF...why does the last 4 pages or more of this thread not even mention Obamas bid for the presidency?

[Killer&Griller]

WTF...why does the last 4 pages or more of this thread not even mention Obamas bid for the presidency?

He was impeached. Now, please hold it down so I can hear Sticky while he preaches from his soap box. :crazy: :thumps:

[Mikerotch]

Rig, It's simple. It was hijacked,

Mikerotch, observer

[100days-a-year]

The assumption that our troops were duped is indicative of some war opponents opinion of the troops as much as thier views on the leadership.

It is also central in that if it was an informed decision that you really CANNOT support the troops but not the war as you question or denigrate thier ability to prosecute warfare and assimilate the data relevant to it's need and viability.Witness the swing in support by Democrat politicians(as well as a few poll-watching Republicrats)for General Petraeus after he supported the so-called troop surge.