Helathcare for all the uninsured.. ??

[Christof]

Now that the dem's have regained power we once again are hearing the "we need to provide healthcare for the millions of uninsured americans" talk, and honestly, I dont and have never understood it......
Firstly, the poor have healthcare available... It's called "Medicaid" and I see them all the time in ER for non-emergency illness's that I (with insurance) would never go to an ER for... They can go to a Dr. also, but dont like to have to wait to be seen... Next, of course the rich have healthcare, so they are not really in the equation... So that leaves the middle class... Sure, millions of them dont have healthcare, but from my own experience I found that when I was not insured, it honestly was personal choice rather than not being able to get it.. I simply wanted to spend my money on other things, but could have paid it if I had chose to....
I guess maybe the folks that work for Wal-Mart wages cant afford it, and maybe they make too much to recieve Medicaid, but again, how many Wal Mart type earners dont have cell phones, buy cigarettes, have cable tv, internet, etc?? In my way of thinking, those items are not constitutionally protected "rights" and although it is a matter of choice, should the middle class (who really funds most everything) have to pay for healthcare for those that dont pay for insurance but still spend their money on non-essentials??

I cant imagine how much the national healthcare plan will cost, but it has to be in the billions...

I guess I would rather see a law forcing employers to cover employees and also regulation of the healthcare insurance companies, who are making record profits...

Well??

[Spear One]

If you remember, Bill and Hillary made reforming the healthcare system the primary focus of their campain. The hope of them actually doing something about it no doubt helped to get Bill elected. If I am not mistaken, when they tried to implement their ideas, they basically got thier asses handed to them. End result? Eight years of the Clintons and little or no change in the healthcare sysytem. It will be interesting to see if Hillary chooses to ride the "reform healthcare system" train again in the 2008 race.

[Christof]

Assuming she wins... I hope not, I am more for Obama.. The man has the Bill Clinton'esque ability to hold my attention when he speaks... I simply want to slap Hillary after about 2 minutes... It will be an interesting run, thats for sure.

[Spear One]

I am not a Hillary fan either. She ran for the Senate for no other reason than to give herself the credibility to make a run at the White House. I think she will say or do just about anything that she thought would get her elected (not unlike many others). She has definitely taken a few more steps in the "moderate" direction lately but I think she is about as far left as a person can get at heart. Looks like this election is gonna' be very interesting to say the least.

[Christof]

Spot on... That is what I dont like about her.... Very very smart woman, but she is the epitomy of a chameleon politician.... Hate Bush, but the one thing I can say I like about him is that he hasnt changed one iota since running and being elected.
Of course it is the only positive I can muster on him, but it is a quality that I wish more politicians had, staying true to who they really are....

[stickitfishy]

You're right about Bush, Christof. He started his presidency as an idiot, has done many idiotic things, hasn't learned a bit and continues being idiotic. Lucky for Satan (Cheney). As far as healthcare goes. Do you know what the median wage is in this state and how much it now costs to live? Do you know how much health coverage worth a crap actually costs per month? How is someone earning the median, living in a median priced home supposed to afford insurance? And please explain why an insurance company pays less for a doctor visit for somebody they cover than someone with no insurance? When I did not have insurance, it was $150 for a visit and almost $100 for the antibiotics that they like to hand out for everything. Now my insurance is paid for, won't use it unless an emergency though. I can diagnose and treat myself better than some doctor who sees me for 2 minutes and gives me the standard amoxicillin script for a virus. Since when do antibiotics kill a virus? They don't and they do more harm than good unless you have a serious bacterial infection. Did I mention how much I love doctors?

[Spear One]

Bush was a dumb ass when he got elected and he is still a dumb ass. Better a dumb ass than John Kerry though.

[aaron proffitt]

And please explain why an insurance company pays less for a doctor visit for somebody they cover than someone with no insurance? When I did not have insurance, it was $150 for a visit and almost $100 for the antibiotics that they like to hand out for everything.
As I understand it(this was a drinking discussion among some like-minded capitalist friends of mine recently :D ), the price the insurance company pays is a negotiated amount with the various providers.The reason it is so much lower than what the average Joe pays is because the healthcare provider is assured they will be paid.Believe it or not,their are alot of deadbeats in society,so....Dr.s will charge less on the presumption they will most definitly be paid. Right or wrong that is the answer.
As far as medical costs,uninsured families and the like this is a BIG issue.I am getting ready to leave a very secure career I've had for over 12 years and the loss of my health insurance is a big concern.We're still worrying about that factor,however it is a decision that my wife and I are making and we will have to deal with the consequences of it.Not everyday tax-payers cross to bear,it's ours. And the great thing about our country is we can choose how big of a cross to bear,if we choose to bear one at all.

[Christof]

You're right about Bush, Christof. He started his presidency as an idiot, has done many idiotic things, hasn't learned a bit and continues being idiotic. Lucky for Satan (Cheney). As far as healthcare goes. Do you know what the median wage is in this state and how much it now costs to live? Do you know how much health coverage worth a crap actually costs per month? How is someone earning the median, living in a median priced home supposed to afford insurance? And please explain why an insurance company pays less for a doctor visit for somebody they cover than someone with no insurance? When I did not have insurance, it was $150 for a visit and almost $100 for the antibiotics that they like to hand out for everything. Now my insurance is paid for, won't use it unless an emergency though. I can diagnose and treat myself better than some doctor who sees me for 2 minutes and gives me the standard amoxicillin script for a virus. Since when do antibiotics kill a virus? They don't and they do more harm than good unless you have a serious bacterial infection. Did I mention how much I love doctors?I know what you mean, since over half my life I have been uninsured... But I will admit that most (if not all) of that time I could have afforded it had I wanted to prioritize it and cut back on non-essentials.. TV's, PC's, Ipod's, Xbox's, etc, are not essential, but try to find any household today (even those on public assistance) that do not have those things... Hell, try to find lower income people driving old pieces of crap like I had when I was poor (Rambler, etc.) nowadays and it is rare and so unique I stare in awe when I see them (remember the old "K" cars?)

I agree with you on wasted scripts etc.. I rant on the Dr's all the time about prescribing antibiotics to those we know have a viral syndrome.. But they are right when they say "we have to, the people expect it and will get angry if we dont give them SOMETHING".... Common sense has been lost, and people taking care of themselves is a thing of the past.. If we could eliminate the waste and abuse BY THE PEOPLE, we could probably afford healthcare for everyone.. Medicare is going bankrupt, yet a good 75% of the old folks I care for do not even need to come to the ER... In the good old days when americans had some balls, they would have never gone to the hospital for the same reasons they do today.
My wife at this moment is sicker than 90% of the people I see in the ER, and she wouldnt dare go to ER for it.. Rest, fluids, tylenol/motrin for comfort, and she knows it will pass... BUT.... she could go to the ER, be given a fluid bolus, IV antibiotics (which would not do any good), and add to the growing cost of healthcare...

When it comes to your stance about cost of living, etc., I know it is spendy here.. But if I couldnt afford it, I would go somewhere I could afford it, not expect a subsidy payment for my choice.. The cost of living in this beautiful state is probably what will drive me back to a state like Idaho that I dont really enjoy, but can afford much easier.. Housing insurance and property tax alone are killing me..

[stickitfishy]

Bush was a dumb ass when he got elected and he is still a dumb ass. Better a dumb ass than John Kerry though.


Why, because John Kerry spoke out about the atrocities that happened in Vietnam? Would you have liked him to cover it up like government does all the time? Please tell me why Bush is better than Kerry?

[aaron proffitt]

Why, because John Kerry spoke out about the atrocities that happened in Vietnam? Would you have liked him to cover it up like government does all the time? Please tell me why Bush is better than Kerry?


Focus ,people !!! We're talking about one of the greatest crisis in our country.
HEALTH CARE $$$$$

[Christof]

Oh, I forgot to mention this.. I assume (and I am not judging you) that you do not have insurance?? But you dive? I know how much my hobby costs me, and it isnt cheap.. Do you think it is right to buy stuff to dive/spear and pay for fuel costs but then complain that you cant afford your healthcare? I just dont believe that spenditures such as hobbies should be subsidized by other americans. Right to play is not a constitutional right, but alas in this country we have become a bunch of people that believe in entitlements, no matter whether we can afford them or not.
Not so...

[stickitfishy]

I know what you mean, since over half my life I have been uninsured... But I will admit that most (if not all) of that time I could have afforded it had I wanted to prioritize it and cut back on non-essentials.. TV's, PC's, Ipod's, Xbox's, etc, are not essential, but try to find any household today (even those on public assistance) that do not have those things... Hell, try to find lower income people driving old pieces of crap like I had when I was poor (Rambler, etc.) nowadays and it is rare and so unique I stare in awe when I see them (remember the old "K" cars?)

I agree with you on wasted scripts etc.. I rant on the Dr's all the time about prescribing antibiotics to those we know have a viral syndrome.. But they are right when they say "we have to, the people expect it and will get angry if we dont give them SOMETHING".... Common sense has been lost, and people taking care of themselves is a thing of the past.. If we could eliminate the waste and abuse BY THE PEOPLE, we could probably afford healthcare for everyone.. Medicare is going bankrupt, yet a good 75% of the old folks I care for do not even need to come to the ER... In the good old days when americans had some balls, they would have never gone to the hospital for the same reasons they do today.
My wife at this moment is sicker than 90% of the people I see in the ER, and she wouldnt dare go to ER for it.. Rest, fluids, tylenol/motrin for comfort, and she knows it will pass... BUT.... she could go to the ER, be given a fluid bolus, IV antibiotics (which would not do any good), and add to the growing cost of healthcare...

When it comes to your stance about cost of living, etc., I know it is spendy here.. But if I couldnt afford it, I would go somewhere I could afford it, not expect a subsidy payment for my choice.. The cost of living in this beautiful state is probably what will drive me back to a state like Idaho that I dont really enjoy, but can afford much easier.. Housing insurance and property tax alone are killing me..

If we did not have 12-20 million illegal aliens in this country, there would be a higher demand for workers and they would have to pay more $$$ and offer more benefits. So more would either have insurance or be able to afford it. At the same time, our gov would save billions that they use to help these illegals out with. How many problems could we solve by deporting these people here ILLEGALLY?

[stickitfishy]

Focus ,people !!! We're talking about one of the greatest crisis in our country.
HEALTH CARE $$$$$

Yada, yada, yada. If SpearOne thinks Bush is better than Kerry, I'd like to know his reasoning.

[stickitfishy]

Oh, I forgot to mention this.. I assume (and I am not judging you) that you do not have insurance?? But you dive? I know how much my hobby costs me, and it isnt cheap.. Do you think it is right to buy stuff to dive/spear and pay for fuel costs but then complain that you cant afford your healthcare? I just dont believe that spenditures such as hobbies should be subsidized by other americans. Right to play is not a constitutional right, but alas in this country we have become a bunch of people that believe in entitlements, no matter whether we can afford them or not.
Not so...

I have insurance now. I think life is about living. Which means doing something you enjoy when not working. Not sitting home, insured and not living/being miserable because you can't afford squat.

[aaron proffitt]

If we did not have 12-20 million illegal aliens in this country, there would be a higher demand for workers and they would have to pay more $$$ and offer more benefits. So more would either have insurance or be able to afford it. At the same time, our gov would save billions that they use to help these illegals out with. How many problems could we solve by deporting these people here ILLEGALLY?



Agreed....but that's only part of the problem.Before my ex-wife decided that crank was a good idea and I got custody of my daughter; she had custody and I carried my daughter on my insurance (which is really good insurance),but my ex also went and applied for(and recieved) state health coverage aka SoonerCare to cover any other costs my daughters healthcare might require.
So follow me here; I was already covering my daughter on my plan in addition to 2/3 of all out of pocket expenses and yet she now had her on state benefits as well. Sound like fraud to anyone else ?
This happens all the time,BTW.

[Christof]

I have insurance now. I think life is about living. Which means doing something you enjoy when not working. Not sitting home, insured and not living/being miserable because you can't afford squat.
Like I said Bob, I am not judging you for that choice (when you didnt have health insurance)... I was the same... I made from around 40k/year as a guide, and lived in a nice house with all the goodies, but CHOSE not to pay $400/month for my premiums... Could have ruined me if a catastrophic illness had hit me, but we were lucky. I did have and pay for a son, and also had a serious heart ailment (coming back to haunt me I fear) but managed to make payments and pay the bill... But what I didnt do was expect free healthcare because I chose not to buy it myself and spend the money in a more entertaining way...

I agree on the illegal issue... I should start keeping a log on how many a shift we care for in the ER... Sadly, they tend not to be very educated and come to the ER 99% of the time for things that they shouldnt even be coming there for in the first place.. Since it is usually their kids, medicaid applies...
Healthcare surely needs reform, but blanket coverage for everyone is not going to help, but I fear, plug up an already overstressed field..

[stickitfishy]

If she did not lie when she applied and still recieved it, then it is not fraud. A loophole probably. But how many accountants, lawyers, insurers etc. etc. use loopholes every day? Of course, it does not make it ethical.

[stickitfishy]

Like I said Bob, I am not judging you for that choice (when you didnt have health insurance)... I was the same... I made from around 40k/year as a guide, and lived in a nice house with all the goodies, but CHOSE not to pay $400/month for my premiums... Could have ruined me if a catastrophic illness had hit me, but we were lucky. I did have and pay for a son, and also had a serious heart ailment (coming back to haunt me I fear) but managed to make payments and pay the bill... But what I didnt do was expect free healthcare because I chose not to buy it myself and spend the money in a more entertaining way...

I agree on the illegal issue... I should start keeping a log on how many a shift we care for in the ER... Sadly, they tend not to be very educated and come to the ER 99% of the time for things that they shouldnt even be coming there for in the first place.. Since it is usually their kids, medicaid applies...
Healthcare surely needs reform, but blanket coverage for everyone is not going to help, but I fear, plug up an already overstressed field..

If we got rid of the illegals, the healthcare problem would go away considerably. Prices would go up on goods and services some, but people would still have more money to spend on extras and more benefits from their jobs.

[aaron proffitt]

If she did not lie when she applied and still recieved it, then it is not fraud. A loophole probably. But how many accountants, lawyers, insurers etc. etc. use loopholes every day? Of course, it does not make it ethical.


Touche',Bob. But still, you see the illustrative point.
Somewhat on topic,saw in an old Guiness Book of World Records(2001) that Denmark had the highest tax rate in the world at approx. of 61%.Yes,that's 61% of every dollar goes to taxes in Denmark.It went on to say that because of this,Danes enjoy much better healthcare and welfare system than the rest of the world.Not sure how I feel about that.

[Christof]

But even in the netherlands, people are starting to resent the high tax rate and immigration out of control... I always liken the immigration situation simply like this...
If you are out at sea in a boat that will safely hold 100 people, you may squeeze 150 into it and still stay dry... But keep piling them in and eventually it will sink and then no one will be dry...
So many in this country (I will refrain from stating my term for them) just dont get it and think we can keep taking in millions of people simply because "we have so much room".... Room has nothing to do with it... Finances do...
I always get a kick out of the folks on TV that when referencing the crackdown on illegals, they start with the racist and bigot bullshit.... Wait, coming into this country illegally and someone has a problem with that becomes a racist???
A guy actually stated the other day (with a straight face mind you) that the immigration debate in this country was racist and targeted hispanics... Hmmmm... 99.9% of illegal immigrants coming into this country are hispanic, but targeting them is racist.... Man oh man...

[100days-a-year]

Taken as a dollar per hour figure my wife and I(both multiple cancer survivors along with some other serious pre-existing conditions)pay around $1 per hour each for our own policy.Given that we work less than 35 hrs a week on average.
That's far less than the "average"dipshit who whines about the high costs pays for cigs,beer and dope.No it doesn't pay for hangnail removal and the co-pays are mediocre but it's reasonable.

[Swimsuit]

"I made from around 40k/year as a guide"
you say that like it's not very much...i just got my W-2 & I made half of that this year. i am a college educated state employee. i do not have any kind of benefits, no health care (not even an option to buy into any), no vacation time, no sick leave, nothing. i don't qualify for state aid with my health care. i have 2 rather major pre-existing conditions. national healthcare would be my dream-come-true.

you might say, well you've made the choice to live in the keys & work there. put up with the consequences of your choice. i am 23 & 1.5 years out of school. my mother's insurance covered me for the last year that i've been working. since losing my health insurance, i have been job searching frequently. however, positions in my field are hard to find, let alone positions down here in the keys. it's bringing me to the point of making a decision to abandon my life long dream to take a job that will pay the bills & provide me with the health care i need.

it is not a matter of simply giving up my internet access or cell phone. to continue on with my coverage under my mother's policy, it would cost me $700/month. that is the same amount of money that i pay for rent (don't even think that i could ever afford to buy a house). at that rate, i would have $100-200 left monthly to pay for groceries, utilities, extra curriculars, car payment, car insurance, etc. so basically, forget ever diving again, forget ever taking time off from work, hope to god that i don't get sick & have to miss work, forget ever visiting family in indiana, forget owning a car, forget eating red meat (we pretty much can only afford that a couple times a month now anyway) you get the point.

currently, i'm stuck between a rock & a hard place. do i leave my current job if i could ever find another job (not in my field of expertise) that would take me that would provide me with insurance or do i try to pay for the doctors appointments, tests, prescriptions with the pay i make at my current job & hope for no catastrophies? i haven't been able to answer that one yet.

unfortunately, the jerks out there are the ones who take advantage of the system and your reason for not endorsing national health care. honest, hard-working, everyday people like me are the ones who want and would really benefit from it. the jerks also want it and would exploit it.

[stickitfishy]

And nothing will change as long as big biz is in control of this country. Money is what gets people elected, big biz has it, gets their unethical figureheads elected and uses them to do their bidding at whatever expense. It just so happens that adding millions to the available workforce drives down wages and benefits for most, while maximizing $$ for the least.

[Christof]

"I made from around 40k/year as a guide"
you say that like it's not very much...i just got my W-2 & I made half of that this year. i am a college educated state employee. i do not have any kind of benefits, no health care (not even an option to buy into any), no vacation time, no sick leave, nothing. i don't qualify for state aid with my health care. i have 2 rather major pre-existing conditions. national healthcare would be my dream-come-true.

you might say, well you've made the choice to live in the keys & work there. put up with the consequences of your choice. i am 23 & 1.5 years out of school. my mother's insurance covered me for the last year that i've been working. since losing my health insurance, i have been job searching frequently. however, positions in my field are hard to find, let alone positions down here in the keys. it's bringing me to the point of making a decision to abandon my life long dream to take a job that will pay the bills & provide me with the health care i need.

it is not a matter of simply giving up my internet access or cell phone. to continue on with my coverage under my mother's policy, it would cost me $700/month. that is the same amount of money that i pay for rent (don't even think that i could ever afford to buy a house). at that rate, i would have $100-200 left monthly to pay for groceries, utilities, extra curriculars, car payment, car insurance, etc. so basically, forget ever diving again, forget ever taking time off from work, hope to god that i don't get sick & have to miss work, forget ever visiting family in indiana, forget owning a car, forget eating red meat (we pretty much can only afford that a couple times a month now anyway) you get the point.

currently, i'm stuck between a rock & a hard place. do i leave my current job if i could ever find another job (not in my field of expertise) that would take me that would provide me with insurance or do i try to pay for the doctors appointments, tests, prescriptions with the pay i make at my current job & hope for no catastrophies? i haven't been able to answer that one yet.

unfortunately, the jerks out there are the ones who take advantage of the system and your reason for not endorsing national health care. honest, hard-working, everyday people like me are the ones who want and would really benefit from it. the jerks also want it and would exploit it.Oh, quite to the contrary, I made good money as a guide once I was established.. It was maybe $12k the first year... Even with making $40k a year for a family of three, $400/month was a lot of money (this was the late 80's and early 90's) when my mortgage payment was $600...

You forget two things in your post.... First, you always state how much you love your job and where you live... How much is that worth to anyone?? Lots.. Second, you dive and spear quite frequently... What are you and Keez paying to fuel up down there? Quite a bit I think... Again, I am not saying I havent done as you, worked for little but loved my job, and also spent money on things that made me happy rather than health care... But please tell me why you feel that because of choices, you are owed healthcare courtesy of taxpayers?? How did we ever get to this point in our history?
You get sick, you can get healthcare for that illness in ER and also be admitted if need be.. THat is the law... But who pays for it is the issue... You dont think you should have to pay the bill?? I witnessed hundreds of illegal moms have their babies delivered for free (er, not free, taxpayer funded) while my wife and I had to make payments for about 4 yrs to pay it off... We incurred the charge, we paid for it...

Maybe I am a putz as I just dont understand the "it is owed to me" mentality...

[Christof]

BTW... Now I understand why you are standing in that picture with no clothes on... I thought it was for some sexy, fun, Key west bash... ;-)

[gogators27]

"I made from around 40k/year as a guide"
you say that like it's not very much...i just got my W-2 & I made half of that this year. i am a college educated state employee. i do not have any kind of benefits, no health care (not even an option to buy into any), no vacation time, no sick leave, nothing. i don't qualify for state aid with my health care. i have 2 rather major pre-existing conditions. national healthcare would be my dream-come-true.

you might say, well you've made the choice to live in the keys & work there. put up with the consequences of your choice. i am 23 & 1.5 years out of school. my mother's insurance covered me for the last year that i've been working. since losing my health insurance, i have been job searching frequently. however, positions in my field are hard to find, let alone positions down here in the keys. it's bringing me to the point of making a decision to abandon my life long dream to take a job that will pay the bills & provide me with the health care i need.

it is not a matter of simply giving up my internet access or cell phone. to continue on with my coverage under my mother's policy, it would cost me $700/month. that is the same amount of money that i pay for rent (don't even think that i could ever afford to buy a house). at that rate, i would have $100-200 left monthly to pay for groceries, utilities, extra curriculars, car payment, car insurance, etc. so basically, forget ever diving again, forget ever taking time off from work, hope to god that i don't get sick & have to miss work, forget ever visiting family in indiana, forget owning a car, forget eating red meat (we pretty much can only afford that a couple times a month now anyway) you get the point.

currently, i'm stuck between a rock & a hard place. do i leave my current job if i could ever find another job (not in my field of expertise) that would take me that would provide me with insurance or do i try to pay for the doctors appointments, tests, prescriptions with the pay i make at my current job & hope for no catastrophies? i haven't been able to answer that one yet.

unfortunately, the jerks out there are the ones who take advantage of the system and your reason for not endorsing national health care. honest, hard-working, everyday people like me are the ones who want and would really benefit from it. the jerks also want it and would exploit it.

you may want to consider a plan with a very high deductable that will cover the catasrophic illnesses. I have one for my family that kicks in after 5,000 dollars and starts paying 80%, for a family of 4 it is 140 bucks a month. I am considering upgrading that to one that pays 100% after the deductalbe is met, and it would be a bit more money each month.

We then just pay out of pocket for doctors visits, this works for us and we have paid cash to have our children since maternity insurance adds up to more than it cost to have a baby anyway.

[Christof]

It is really not so much a matter that people cant find a solution as you did, but rather we have simply come to believe that it is owed to us and we shouldnt have to pay for it...
I have a good job, but pretty crappy insurance that even though thru an employer I still pay $400/month to cover my wife and I... She got sick, had surgery, and we looked at our bills last night and we will end up owing between 20k and 24k when all is said and done... Our old insurance (thru a different employer 3 yrs ago) would have capped what we owed at 10k... Ah, the good old days... Good for you Apex, you are doing it right..

[Swimsuit]

unfortunately for us, $5000 is catestrophic. we don't get paid enough to put much into savings. $5000 would literally liquidate my savings account. i know, i know, we should have never bought a boat if we're that far in the poor house, but as stickit pointed out, i can't see the point of sitting home doing nothing & not living life just so i can have insurance. right now, i'm willing to take the gamble on not getting injured. on top of that, if we're injured to the point of $5000 in medical bills, the work we miss (remember no sick or vacation leave) means no income at all on top of major expenses. basically, if something catestrophic happens, we'll have to declare bankruptcy.

[Christof]

I am puzzled.... I thought you were a biologist for the state.. My bad...
With your knowledge (and Keez), why cant you get a good job with the state? Seems they are always doing studies....
Up nawth in washington state, the bio's do damn well and have some of the best retirement and med benefits of anyone...

[stickitfishy]

I'll say it again. Get rid of the 12-20 million illegals and wages and benefits will go WAY up and healthcare will fix itself. And Medicaid will too since it is the illegals who eat it up. Now there is probably not one illegal that would qualify for Swimsuits job, but if they were not here, other jobs would be offering more, forcing hers to ante up or lose people.

And Christof, you are really out of touch with this thread. YOU see more Mexicans/illegals taking advantage of the system at your work that shouldn't even be helping them in the first place. Why should our tax dollars help their illegal asses when they are hurting us? They hurt the middle class, then when the middle class asks for something they can no longer afford, you chastize them for it. Do you think we should all live 3-4 per bedroom like the illegals do?

[Swimsuit]

oh no you're correct we work for the state! we are treated that poorly as government employees. keez has worked with them for 5 years. i have been for over a year. basically, you can't get a good job (the good jobs pay ~30K) in the biology field without an advanced degree & considerable experience. i'm 1.5 years out of school & can only get the experience by continuing to work as a "slave to the state." starting pay for a biologist with a BS for the state is $10-11/hour with no benefits at all. frequently, people with masters degrees have to start out at this rate as well.

EDIT-GEEZ i HATE when the wind blows like this. can't we all just get out on the water & get along :p !

[stickitfishy]

I am puzzled.... I thought you were a biologist for the state.. My bad...
With your knowledge (and Keez), why cant you get a good job with the state? Seems they are always doing studies....
Up nawth in washington state, the bio's do damn well and have some of the best retirement and med benefits of anyone...

Christof Unions are very weak in this state, they are much stronger in Washington. Unions are the ones who get the higher pay and benefits for their workers. Their non-union counterparts have to somewhat compete or lose their workers to the unions.

[Swimsuit]

i've never heard of a biology union before...i think a biological union has something to do with reproduction;)

[stickitfishy]

Didn't say there was one. But because there are unions in Washington, the pay and benfits are higher for all. Part of the problem here in FL is that people retire from up north and come live on their pensions in sunny FL. They often supplement their pension by working for low wages. This drives down the wages here for the rest of us. Add some illegals on top of that and this state sucks for pay and benefits.

[stickitfishy]

i've never heard of a biology union before...i think a biological union has something to do with reproduction;)

I'm sure with your low bf %, you are often asked to unionize. :lol:

[Christof]

oh no you're correct we work for the state! we are treated that poorly as government employees.
Now THAT is bullshit.... Go get a job around Puget Sound in Washington state.. Not as warm, but beautiful, lots of wildlife, and state workers get a good package...
WTF is up with Florida paying state employees that poorly??
I was told that even Toll workers made around $10/hr and had bennies...

And Bob, you talk like I like taking care of illegals? Well, I dont want it to sound like I am not a caring person, but yeah, it really rips me, day in and day out... Shipped one out the other day that was 23 days old, mom had only been here for about 4 months, and the kid was going to a PICU at the cost of around $4k/day, all on taxpayers.. And the kicker was that the kid wasnt that sick... Eating well, no vomiting, diarrhea... Simple congestion in lungs and 99 degree temp.... But see, if we dont go overboard on them, then we are accused of not caring cause they are illegal and hispanic... Cant win for losing...

[bgbill]

I have a novel idea-


How about the uninsured paying for their own insurance?

[Swimsuit]

well that brings us to the whole, insurance is crazy expensive bit & i have to decide to to quit my job or just not have any. as i said, i haven't come to a decision on this one yet.

[spaghetti]

I'm a european, and more than this I'am proud member of the european minority ready to say loud "I love America".
But I don't understand anything of this discussion, you're speaking greek. In my country if you're sick they bring you to a hospital and give you the best medical care available for FREE. If you need a heart transplant you'll have a new heart for free, and nobody will ask you if you paid any insurance, if you're rich or poor, if you're a tax payer, an unemployed or a son of a bitch. You're just a citizen, you're one of us who will die if the community won't provide you with a new heart. And so the community gives you a new heart. It has always been this way for us, and I (a tax payer) honestly think it couldn't be any better.

[bgbill]

well that brings us to the whole, insurance is crazy expensive bit & i have to decide to to quit my job or just not have any. as i said, i haven't come to a decision on this one yet.

If you can afford to dive, you can afford medical insurance.

I pay $740 every other month for my wife (32) Daughter (6) and Stepdaughter (11), that is Blue Cross and Blue Shield PPO plan.

[jackpine savage]

Not everyone is in the same boat as you Bret, that is not everyone can afford that much money for insurance. There is no denying that medical insurance is to expensive and the insurance companies spend as much time trying to find ways not to pay for something as they do actually covering you. I don't know what the solution is but this country needs to address this issue. Its not as simple as everyone buying it, if thats all you think it will take to solve this issue then you are living in a bubble.

[bgbill]

Not everyone is in the same boat as you Bret, that is not everyone can afford that much money for insurance. There is no denying that medical insurance is to expensive and the insurance companies spend as much time trying to find ways not to pay for something as they do actually covering you. I don't know what the solution is but this country needs to address this issue. Its not as simple as everyone buying it, if thats all you think it will take to solve this issue then you are living in a bubble.

It is about $100 per month per person, that is pretty cheap.

A lot of people who don't have insurance, choose not to have it.

Like I said if you can afford to dive, you can afford medical insurance.

BTW what do you guys drive and how much is your car payment?

I guarantee it is more than $100 per month.


What is more important a newer model car or medical insurance?

[jackpine savage]

Considering that SW works for the state she isn't afforded the luxury of having a tax deduction close to 4500 dollars for her insurance. I don't know the numbers but I would guess that a lot of people dont have insurance because they can't afford it. But then in my state they are beginning a program of universal coverage, if you do not participate in it they deduct the insurance from your tax refund. It will be interesting to see how it works. Since the uninsured costs the state a lot of money I have no problems with it being mandatory.
By the way I am like you a self employed contractor. My insurance went up 35% last year even though I have not been to the hospital in over 10 years. My physicals are out of pocket, I dont smke, exercise and I am in pretty good shape. Why would they raise my insurance that much? My auto insurance goes down when I go a lenghty period with out making a claim. Quit sticking up for the insurance companies they are purely profit-driven and could care less about peoples health.

[bluedog]

I am very fortunate, my wife is a surgeon, I am a medical device rep who used to work in healthcare. We have awesome insurance. But we both have talked about this in the past. We both made a conscious decision to choose careers that would provide for our needs and wants, while at the same time fulfill our professional goals. We both paid for college with scholarships or out of pocket/student loans, we had no help from our families. That being said, we were born naked with no other means but to make our own decisions guided by people we were associated with through family or open interaction. I don't feel sorry for those who failed to make the right decisions. I don't feel that socialized medicine is an answer. Healthcare accounts for 16% of the GDP, Hillary, Bush or Ronald McDonald will not be able to tame the beast associated with industry in medicine. People need to learn to make conscious decisions for their future, including healthcare.
I know this will probably be taken as harsh, it's just the way I feel, if I hadn't planned appropriately I might feel differently.

[stickitfishy]

Now THAT is bullshit.... Go get a job around Puget Sound in Washington state.. Not as warm, but beautiful, lots of wildlife, and state workers get a good package...
WTF is up with Florida paying state employees that poorly??
I was told that even Toll workers made around $10/hr and had bennies...

And Bob, you talk like I like taking care of illegals? Well, I dont want it to sound like I am not a caring person, but yeah, it really rips me, day in and day out... Shipped one out the other day that was 23 days old, mom had only been here for about 4 months, and the kid was going to a PICU at the cost of around $4k/day, all on taxpayers.. And the kicker was that the kid wasnt that sick... Eating well, no vomiting, diarrhea... Simple congestion in lungs and 99 degree temp.... But see, if we dont go overboard on them, then we are accused of not caring cause they are illegal and hispanic... Cant win for losing...

Hey Christof, I was trying to make a point. You have not been in this state very long and where you live it is dirt cheap compared to most of us(since you live somewhere in the middle of the state). The cost of living has increased dramatically in the last decade and wages and benefits have gone backwards. You happen to be in a field where there is a very high demand and for some reason there are not enough schools for it. Your wages are very high for this state compared to others who are working for someone. So actually, you don't understand where Swimsuit Whore is coming from nor do you I. I was trying to explain it to you, but I guess you don't get it. Should 2 hard-working people with college degrees and jobs for the state have to eat oat meal, stay home and watch non-cable t.v., in order to afford insurance or is something f-d up just a little?

[stickitfishy]

I am very fortunate, my wife is a surgeon, I am a medical device rep who used to work in healthcare. We have awesome insurance. But we both have talked about this in the past. We both made a conscious decision to choose careers that would provide for our needs and wants, while at the same time fulfill our professional goals. We both paid for college with scholarships or out of pocket/student loans, we had no help from our families. That being said, we were born naked with no other means but to make our own decisions guided by people we were associated with through family or open interaction. I don't feel sorry for those who failed to make the right decisions. I don't feel that socialized medicine is an answer. Healthcare accounts for 16% of the GDP, Hillary, Bush or Ronald McDonald will not be able to tame the beast associated with industry in medicine. People need to learn to make conscious decisions for their future, including healthcare.
I know this will probably be taken as harsh, it's just the way I feel, if I hadn't planned appropriately I might feel differently.

Since you are rich, you say the hell with the rest. Especially since it would effect your bottom line. Nice!!

[Swimsuit]

"It is about $100 per month per person, that is pretty cheap."

Bret, if i could find $100 monthly insurance, I would be on it. The $700 that I'm talking about is for me alone per month with Blue Cross Blue Shield. That's simply not possible to be part of my budget. Yes, I could go for less coverage & make it cheaper, but I'm stating this as an example of keeping the coverage I have had my entire life until now. Even with less coverage than that, it's still probably more than I can afford which is why I'm saying I haven't made the decision to give up my dream job to have insurance yet.

On average, Jeff and I spend less than $100 a month diving. That means $50 a month for my hobby & then 5-6 days worth of dinner for that $50. I do not believe that I can find worthwhile health insurance for that price. As I said before, you can fault me for deciding to buy a boat, but I believe my quality of life is better by being able to dive regularly than by having the guarantee of security in a medical emergency. If that situation arises, yes I will lose my boat along with everything else I own basically. I am willing to take that gamble at the moment.

On a side note, I do have dive insurance with DAN which I believe is the most dangerous thing in which I am involved.

also, being from indiana, i didn't really realize that my chosen career would not afford me health insurance. i am at the point now where i'm trying to figure out what else i could do that would at least semi interest me & be related to my training where i will be a little better off than i am now. if you have suggestions that do not require me going into debt, i'm all ears. when going to school to become a marine biologist, they usually tell you that you won't be well paid. they do not tell you that you will be paid just a little above the poverty level & that you will have no benefits what-so-ever.

[bgbill]

Considering that SW works for the state she isn't afforded the luxury of having a tax deduction close to 4500 dollars for her insurance. I don't know the numbers but I would guess that a lot of people dont have insurance because they can't afford it. But then in my state they are beginning a program of universal coverage, if you do not participate in it they deduct the insurance from your tax refund. It will be interesting to see how it works. Since the uninsured costs the state a lot of money I have no problems with it being mandatory.
By the way I am like you a self employed contractor. My insurance went up 35% last year even though I have not been to the hospital in over 10 years. My physicals are out of pocket, I dont smke, exercise and I am in pretty good shape. Why would they raise my insurance that much? My auto insurance goes down when I go a lenghty period with out making a claim. Quit sticking up for the insurance companies they are purely profit-driven and could care less about peoples health.

If you want to use SW as an example that is fine, she works for the State, they usually have healthcare benefits as part of their benefit package, even if the Sate does not pay for it, she chose to work there.

Her and her Boyfriend just bought a boat, and seem to dive quite a bit, she is younger than my wife, she can certainly afford $100 per month for insurance.

What is the big deal with paying for medical insurance?

I am sure their boat costs them more than $100 per month.

As far as why your insurance went up 35% that is because you are probably in a group plan, when the group experiences higher claims, rates will rise.

Your auto insurance is an individual policy, since you had no claims, your rate can go down.

If you don't like paying for insurance you can always drop the coverage, but I think it is unfair to expect your fellow citizens to pay for your insurance because you chose to spend the money on other things.

It is not the governments responsibility to take care of you and your family, it is your responsibility.

[bgbill]

"It is about $100 per month per person, that is pretty cheap."

Bret, if i could find $100 monthly insurance, I would be on it. The $700 that I'm talking about is for me alone per month with Blue Cross Blue Shield. That's simply not possible to be part of my budget. Yes, I could go for less coverage & make it cheaper, but I'm stating this as an example of keeping the coverage I have had my entire life until now. Even with less coverage than that, it's still probably more than I can afford which is why I'm saying I haven't made the decision to give up my dream job to have insurance yet.

On average, Jeff and I spend less than $100 a month diving. That means $50 a month for my hobby & then 5-6 days worth of dinner for that $50. I do not believe that I can find worthwhile health insurance for that price. As I said before, you can fault me for deciding to buy a boat, but I believe my quality of life is better by being able to dive regularly than by having the guarantee of security in a medical emergency. If that situation arises, yes I will lose my boat along with everything else I own basically. I am willing to take that gamble at the moment.

On a side note, I do have dive insurance with DAN which I believe is the most dangerous thing in which I am involved.

My wife is 32 has had 2 kids and is on a Private Plan with blue Cross Blue Shield and it is a little over $100 per month.

Have you called a Blue Cross Blue Shield agent to get a quote?

[keezdiver]

"Her and her Boyfriend just bought a boat, and seem to dive quite a bit, she is younger than my wife, she can certainly afford $100 per month for insurance."

obviously you failed to see that statement about her monthly quote was $700....

i'm exstatic for your wife that she has such a great plan. but then again...where do you live? and does your wife have a serious heart defect?

if insurance were $100 a month....WE WOULD BUY IT!!!...but it's not!!!

yes the boat costs more than $100 a month....but that's something we will be paying for a year...at the end of that year...we will still be unable to pay for insurance....boat payment or not!!!

[junior]

when going to school to become a marine biologist, they usually tell you that you won't be well paid. they do not tell you that you will be paid just a little above the poverty level & that you will have no benefits what-so-ever.

I work in a field that employs marine biologists. In fact, my wife's company (same field) hired an entire team of marine biologists to work on some projects. They all worked for the state and had the same issues. Unfortunately, I do not know of anyone doing that work in the keys or I would still be living there myself:D

You should look into the environmental consulting field. A good firm will offer all the benefits (health, dental, 401K, stocks etc.). Generally, the work involves a mix of field and office work and starting salaries would be higher than what you are making now. If you and Jeff want a name and number or any help let me know.

Sorry to derail.

[bgbill]

"Her and her Boyfriend just bought a boat, and seem to dive quite a bit, she is younger than my wife, she can certainly afford $100 per month for insurance."

obviously you failed to see that statement about her monthly quote was $700....

i'm exstatic for your wife that she has such a great plan. but then again...where do you live? and does your wife have a serious heart defect?

if insurance were $100 a month....WE WOULD BUY IT!!!...but it's not!!!

yes the boat costs more than $100 a month....but that's something we will be paying for a year...at the end of that year...we will still be unable to pay for insurance....boat payment or not!!!

Who's responsibility is it to pay for medical insurance, whether it is $100 or $700 per month?

Seems to me it is a personal responsibility.

If you can't afford health insurance, how can you afford a boat?

My boat is paid for, yet it still costs me money to insure it and maintain it, if I couldn't pay for essentials like health insurane, I would sell it in a heartbeat.

Diving is not a necessity, and I would also give it up if I could not pay for medical insurance for my family.

[Swimsuit]

thanks junior, currently i have issues with moving towards the private side because when i've worked with consultants before i've felt like they were on the dark side of biology. the people i worked with were fighting to let businesses/develpers destroy the environment while i was on the side of defending. i'm not extremely worldly experienced so maybe you guys have found something better. as i've said previously, i'm working on life decisions right now: do i move out of the keys because there's no job market to somewhere else where there's just minimal job market? do i leave my field because it is not giving me the ability to lead the life i was hoping for? do i switch to the private sector because they can give me a more cushioned lifestyle even though i don't agree with what they do? all of these things are questions that i will have to answer but am not looking forward to at this stage in my life.

bret-i haven't talked personally with an agent, but i have done multiple quotes online & emailed with agents. i also have the information from my mom's agent.

all-i believe i've somewhat derailed this thread & i apologize. i fully admit that i am not well versed in today's politics & normally stay out of this forum for that reason. i managed to get into it today, but i will be leaving at this point. i posted because i believe that national healthcare would make my life easier. however, i can't say i've done any research into where the funding for this would come or what it's impact would be. therefore, i don't believe i have the right to be arguing with those who have done the research and are more knowledgeable on this than myself. so i'll leave it to you & quit giving you my whining, sob story. thanks for those with inputs & also those with sympathy. good luck fishing guys & i'll hope for better weather.

[keezdiver]

"Diving is not a necessity, and I would also give it up if I could not pay for medical insurance for my family"


thats fantastic...

but what if you didn't have a family....if it was only you!!!???

would you sell your boat to pay $700 a month for insurance to cover you and ONLY you??

it boils down to personal choice.

as we all know bret...your choice is always the right one...therefore the rest of us are always in the wrong.

so be it.

i'm out...

[junior]

THE DARK SIDE???:D Don't tell me you're a tree-huggin vegetarian steel slinger...

I know what you are saying though. We both felt that way once. But, keep in mind that the work you do for industry is promulgated and enforced by the EPA. Our job is to keep industries in compliance with federal, state and local environmental regulations. As long as you are doing good, honest science, I see no dark side. The dark side is the politicians who meddle in the affairs of science to protect business from proper regulation:D

[jackpine savage]

Bret-Don't you get it. As it now stands if you don't have health insurance and you go to the hospital they are required by law to care for you. You pay for the uninsured as do I. Something needs to be done. As for my policy, it is a group plan, that is because it is impossible up here in the Northeast to buy individual coverage. I don't know what it is like there in Fla but that is the case here. While I agree with you that it is an individuals responsibility to get insurance if they can the insurance compnaies are charging prices that IMHO are unreasonable for teh sevice they provide. If they didn't have the politicians in their pockets something would have been done a long tme ago. By the way when you retire I expect you will refuse the Medicare insurance provided by the government since you don't believe in socialized medicine.

[bgbill]

By the way when you retire I expect you will refuse the Medicare insurance provided by the government since you don't believe in socialized medicine.

When I retire, I will use Medicare, because I have paid for it, although i do not believe in socialized medicine.

I will also get SS, because I paid into it, but if I die before I draw any money from it, then I have paid into a fund that I had no benefit from.

What is wrong with the concept of personal responsibility?

[bgbill]

"Diving is not a necessity, and I would also give it up if I could not pay for medical insurance for my family"


thats fantastic...

but what if you didn't have a family....if it was only you!!!???

would you sell your boat to pay $700 a month for insurance to cover you and ONLY you??

it boils down to personal choice.

as we all know bret...your choice is always the right one...therefore the rest of us are always in the wrong.

so be it.

i'm out...

If it was only me, I would have less expenses, than I do right now.

Would you like for me to contact my insurance agent to get you a quote?

EDIT:

Where have I ever been disrespectful to you? or made any personal attacks towards you or Jess?

I don't think I ever have, if I have please let me know.

Why make such a comment, about me always being right? :rolleyes:

I am giving you my experiences and opinion only, I never made any smart ass comments to you or Jess.

[bgbill]

BTW Bluewater Rocket runs an insurance plan of some sort, you guys may want to contact him to see if you can get in on the plan.

[stickitfishy]

Bret, congratulations, you have just won the 2007 Lifetime Achievement Award for being the biggest dick on Spearboard. Nobody even came close! Congratulations once again on being such a huge prick! :lol:

[bluedog]

Since you are rich, you say the hell with the rest. Especially since it would effect your bottom line. Nice!!

We're not rich, but we have PLANNED appropriately. Don't persecute me for planning correctly. I see healthcare for what it is...necessary, food and clothing are necessary, I have those as well. Like I said, we all start off naked, blank slate. Whether or not you have health insurance does not effect my bottom line, however I don't feel as though my wife should have to go through 13+ years of school and residency to work for free because someone didn't plan appropriately in order to pay for services rendered (however she knew this going into it=planning).

Now, if she could "write-off" some of her work like attorneys can (pro bono) I could stomach it more...

[bgbill]

Bret, congratulations, you have just won the 2007 Lifetime Achievement Award for being the biggest dick on Spearboard. Nobody even came close! Congratulations once again on being such a huge prick! :lol:

I think you won that award a long time ago, with your buddy Ironhead.

Please explain exactly what I did in this post that makes me a dick? :rolleyes:

It is easy to make personal attacks when you have no facts to back up your claims, i presented real facts as it pertains to health insurance costs, that I pay for, what have you done other than bitch about Bush?

Bush has made many mistakes as President, many I am unhappy with, but you will never achieve 1/100 of a % of the success he has.

[bgbill]

We're not rich, but we have PLANNED appropriately. Don't persecute me for planning correctly. I see healthcare for what it is...necessary, food and clothing are necessary, I have those as well. Like I said, we all start off naked, blank slate. Whether or not you have health insurance does not effect my bottom line, however I don't feel as though my wife should have to go through 13+ years of school and residency to work for free because someone didn't plan appropriately in order to pay for services rendered (however she knew this going into it=planning).

Now, if she could "write-off" some of her work like attorneys can (pro bono) I could stomach it more...


Don't worry about fishstick, he has failed to plan in his life and he gets upset with those who have planned ahead and are succcesful.

It isn't fair that you and your wife made decisions and worked hard to get where you are at in life, and he is stuck where he is in life.

But you and your wife need to keep working hard, because there are many who suck off the government teet and need your money.

[stickitfishy]

Who's responsibility is it to pay for medical insurance, whether it is $100 or $700 per month?

Seems to me it is a personal responsibility.

If you can't afford health insurance, how can you afford a boat?

My boat is paid for, yet it still costs me money to insure it and maintain it, if I couldn't pay for essentials like health insurane, I would sell it in a heartbeat.

Diving is not a necessity, and I would also give it up if I could not pay for medical insurance for my family.

Your reply to Swimsuit Whore shows no sympathy or compassion. In fact I have never seen any sympathy or compassion for anyone, from you, ever! This makes you a dick! It's like you lack a part of your personality that the rest of us have.

[bgbill]

Your reply to Swimsuit Whore shows no sympathy or compassion. In fact I have never seen any sympathy or compassion for anyone, from you, ever! This makes you a dick! It's like you lack a part of your personality that the rest of us have.


I think that Jess has had some bad information as far as health insurance quotes, her rates should be the same or less than my wife, my wife is older than Jess and has had 2 kids, that would make her rates higher.

I asked a question about how can they afford a boat and dive, yet they can not afford health insurance.

Before you play, you must be responsible, and pay for necessities in life.

She is a college graduate, she chose her line of work, if it does not pay very well or pay for medical insurance, who's fault is that?

I chose my line of work, and if I don't make money, who's fault is that?

Why must you always make personal attacks, when someone disagrees with you? :confused:

[stickitfishy]

Don't worry about fishstick, he has failed to plan in his life and he gets upset with those who have planned ahead and are succcesful.

It isn't fair that you and your wife made decisions and worked hard to get where you are at in life, and he is stuck where he is in life.

But you and your wife need to keep working hard, because there are many who suck off the government teet and need your money.

Sometimes plans don't work out and they have to change. I have been successful in the past and I will be in the future Bret. More than you could ever be, because you lack the intelligence necessary. Hell, you charge $45 an hour for work as a General Contractor. Either your work sucks or you suck as a businessman. My guess is both. And like I said, I have health insurance.

[jackpine savage]

When I retire, I will use Medicare, because I have paid for it, although i do not believe in socialized medicine.

I will also get SS, because I paid into it, but if I die before I draw any money from it, then I have paid into a fund that I had no benefit from.

What is wrong with the concept of personal responsibility?
Nothing, universal health care is something that would be payed from our taxes. Its not free, everyone pays taxes therefore everyone is eligible. We are trying something along those lines here in MA. If you have insurance then fine, if you don't you have to pay into a state mandated plan. I don't know all the costs but it is basically pooling everyone without insurance together much like self employed groups so.Its mandatory so if you dont pay initially the state takes it from your tax refund, they key is all uninsured people have to join in. Be interesting to see how it works. At least they are making an attempt on finding a solution.

[bgbill]

Nothing, universal health care is something that would be payed from our taxes. Its not free, everyone pays taxes therefore everyone is eligible. We are trying something along those lines here in MA. If you have insurance then fine, if you don't you have to pay into a state mandated plan. I don't know all the costs but it is basically pooling everyone without insurance together much like self employed groups so.Its mandatory so if you dont pay initially the state takes it from your tax refund, they key is all uninsured people have to join in. Be interesting to see how it works. At least they are making an attempt on finding a solution.

Everyone does not pay taxes.

Because of EITC, there are those who even get more back than they pay in. :rolleyes:

And we all know that once the Government gets involved with something, there is a cost savings. :rolleyes:

[stickitfishy]

Bret, I did not think calling you a dick was a personal attack. Merely a fact that many of your friends have publicly agreed with. If you bothered to read, Swimsuit has a major heart defect. This is why her insurance is so high. You think that was a personal choice? Are you going to call your buddies over to the thread and have them attack me, because you can't defend yourself again, like you ALWAYS do?

[jackpine savage]

Everyone does not pay taxes.

Because of EITC, there are those who even get more back than they pay in. :rolleyes:

And we all know that once the Government gets involved with something, there is a cost savings. :rolleyes:
So at least they are making an effort in finding a way to insure everyone. There are some people who don't pay taxes, the state is also getting employers nvolved so that those who cant pay for one reason or another will be covered by the employer. Of course we all now how well the private sector is about putting the employes before profits.

[bgbill]

Sometimes plans don't work out and they have to change. I have been successful in the past and I will be in the future Bret. More than you could ever be, because you lack the intelligence necessary. Hell, you charge $45 an hour for work as a General Contractor. Either your work sucks or you suck as a businessman. My guess is both. And like I said, I have health insurance.

There is one client that I charge $45 an hour, he gets a break because of the amount of work he has given me.

How much are you making right now?

What is the most you have ever made?

What have you been succesful at, Pizza Hut? is that where you had the Toxic Mold issue?

Do you even own a house?

You have no idea my level of intelligence, and have no idea the quality of my work, yet you make bullshit attacks on me and have threatened me as well as my family, yet when you get shit from me, you whine like a little girl to Tony that I am being mean to you.

You are 34 years old and have not been succsesful yet, odds are, where you are at in life right now, is where you will be the rest of your life, 34 is not the age to be starting a new career, most sucessful people are settled into their career at that age.

I have 18 year old kids doing apprentice electrical work, you are 34 doing the same thing, how succesful are you going to be?

[stickitfishy]

We're not rich, but we have PLANNED appropriately. Don't persecute me for planning correctly. I see healthcare for what it is...necessary, food and clothing are necessary, I have those as well. Like I said, we all start off naked, blank slate. Whether or not you have health insurance does not effect my bottom line, however I don't feel as though my wife should have to go through 13+ years of school and residency to work for free because someone didn't plan appropriately in order to pay for services rendered (however she knew this going into it=planning).

Now, if she could "write-off" some of her work like attorneys can (pro bono) I could stomach it more...

Who said anything about your wife working for free? What kind of surgeon is she?

[bgbill]

Bret, I did not think calling you a dick was a personal attack. Merely a fact that many of your friends have publicly agreed with. If you bothered to read, Swimsuit has a major heart defect. This is why her insurance is so high. You think that was a personal choice? Are you going to call your buddies over to the thread and have them attack me, because you can't defend yourself again, like you ALWAYS do?

I never call anyone to attack you, I have actually taken it easy on you since you cry like a little bitch to Tony, when I give you shit after you start it with me.

As far as Jess having a heart problem, if she gets into a group plan, they will have to accept her pre existing condition, her rates will be higher than what I am paying for my wife, but I still think $700 is high.

But even if it $700 a month, who's responsibility is it to pay for her medical insuarance?

She obviously is in half way decent health if she is diving, and by looking at her, she is the model of fitness, you don't see abs like that on many girls these days.

[bluedog]

Who said anything about your wife working for free? What kind of surgeon is she?

No one said she worked for free except for me, this often happens to physicians and surgeons because they (not all) offer services (often in emergency situations) to people without the ability to pay out of their pledge to the Hippocratic Oath. She is a General Surgeon who will be doing a breast fellowship (not plastics, it's oncology related).

[stickitfishy]

You have no idea my level of intelligence, and have no idea the quality of my work, yet you make bullshit attacks on me and have threatened me as well as my family, yet when you get shit from me, you whine like a little girl to Tony that I am being mean to you.



Blah, blah, blah. Your level of intelligence clearly shows through with your posts, time and time again. I have never encountered someone who has such a closed mind and refuses to accept anything as a possibility other than what they think period. I never threatened your family jerk off. I threatened to call you at all hours, hoping it would annoy your family. Because you decided to try and chase me off the board by posting on every thread I posted and being an ass. If you wanna be such a dick, I can be a bigger dick. If people don't like it, I don't care! I'd just love to read a thread where you don't start being a dick to somebody. I know I can be a dick on this board to people sometimes too, but I don't go looking for confrontation.

[jackpine savage]

Actually they offer free service to the destitute because of state law not the hippocratic oath. You live in a state where in my lifetime cretain hospitals wouldn't offer care to a black person no matter how ill, hippocratic oath is like the seasons it comes and goes.

[jackpine savage]

God only knows how people will continue to afford health care. Bret guys like you and me who are self employed will only see our premiums continue to go higher. I hope for everyones sake someone comes up with a solution to escalating rates

[rigdvr]

Stickit...Everyone knows that Bret and I dont see eye to eye but Someones gotta call you out. You seem to chase him around the board just to emphasize his assholeness. You keep poking at the hornets nest then act like the victim when you get stung. Reminds me of someone who is on a leave of absence from the board right now:)

As for the insurance....slippery slope that is. Im in an imbetween situation and paying almost 1000 a month for my family plan. Thats blue cross blue shield. I believe in paying my own way but its hard to say that when you cant.

Blue...you ready to go test out the new gun?

[stickitfishy]

I never call anyone to attack you, I have actually taken it easy on you since you cry like a little bitch to Tony, when I give you shit after you start it with me.

As far as Jess having a heart problem, if she gets into a group plan, they will have to accept her pre existing condition, her rates will be higher than what I am paying for my wife, but I still think $700 is high.

But even if it $700 a month, who's responsibility is it to pay for her medical insuarance?

She obviously is in half way decent health if she is diving, and by looking at her, she is the model of fitness, you don't see abs like that on many girls these days.

You can look great on the outside and be dying on the inside Bret, but of course you would not know that. As far as bitching to Tony about you being an ass. He agrees! I think you are still a MOD because you amuse him. :D
Frankly, seeing you being a dick everywhere you get a chance on this board annoys the shit out of me. But, I am easily annoyed!

[jackpine savage]

And this has what to do with the topic of the thread. I don't see eye to eye with Bret but he acts like an adult which is a far cry from how you act. Grow up and quit your whining.

[stickitfishy]

Stickit...Everyone knows that Bret and I dont see eye to eye but Someones gotta call you out. You seem to chase him around the board just to emphasize his assholeness. You keep poking at the hornets nest then act like the victim when you get stung. Reminds me of someone who is on a leave of absence from the board right now:)

As for the insurance....slippery slope that is. Im in an imbetween situation and paying almost 1000 a month for my family plan. Thats blue cross blue shield. I believe in paying my own way but its hard to say that when you cant.

Blue...you ready to go test out the new gun?

I don't intentionally post in threads Bret posts in, but I really don't like seeing him being a dick to people. Sometimes I feel I just have to post when he says stupid shit. This may seem often. :D By the way, I posted in this thread way before he was here, not that it matters!

[rigdvr]

Your extremely personal attacks are played out. People could care less about how you feel about Brett. I guess since youre annoyed you think its ok to annoy us as well?

If people have a problem with Brett they need to handle it. I dont think we need you to be the superhero Brett patrol for us. Ive shared words with him before and I think his posts come of sounding badly and often insensitive but we are all grown ups here. So despite your feeling that youre obligated to post when you see him being a dick....do like they taught you in grade school......just say no. :)

[stickitfishy]

And this has what to do with the topic of the thread. I don't see eye to eye with Bret but he acts like an adult which is a far cry from how you act. Grow up and quit your whining.

Who asked you? If someone wants to be a jerk to people because they feel it is their duty then they need to be called on it. Obviously Swimsuit Whore and her bf were upset with Bret's lack of compassion for their situation. I don't think Bret has a compassionate bone in his body. I have yet to see him try to help anyone with anything ever.

[stickitfishy]

Your extremely personal attacks are played out. People could care less about how you feel about Brett. I guess since youre annoyed you think its ok to annoy us as well?

If people have a problem with Brett they need to handle it. I dont think we need you to be the superhero Brett patrol for us. Ive shared words with him before and I think his posts come of sounding badly and often insensitive but we are all grown ups here. So despite your feeling that youre obligated to post when you see him being a dick....do like they taught you in grade school......just say no. :)

Man, I wish it was that easy for me! I apologize for trying to be the superhero Bret patrol though and I'll try to ignore him, can't make any promises though.

[bluedog]

Blue...you ready to go test out the new gun?


Anytime!

[Mutt]

Now THAT is bullshit.... WTF is up with Florida paying state employees that poorly??
I was told that even Toll workers made around $10/hr and had bennies......

...everyone wants to live in Florida.....Almost every competetive job in a place like Florida pays less than other less desirable places....People will always come to a place like florida & do the work...for much less...everytime!

you can be the most educated person in the world, doctor, sturgeon, banker, lawyer, plant worker, fisherman....whatever...but if your job is thought of as a commodity (which it is unless u are really niched or self employed) here in Florida..and you work for someone else.....u generally will make 2-5 times more in just about any other place than here....the ole suppply/ demand curve! The Free Enterprise System... what an 'Ingenous Concept!'

"She is a college graduate, she chose her line of work, if it does not pay very well or pay for medical insurance, who's fault is that...."

Hell, live it up, for at least another 6.5 years...damn...life is too short!! Sounds and looks like she is havn' fun to me...not too bad...livn in the keys...23 years old...damn people work there entire lives to save up a bunch of cash so they can move to a place like the keys...but than they are too damn old to enjoy it by the time they get there....shit...Live it up!

[Swimsuit]

She obviously is in half way decent health if she is diving, and by looking at her, she is the model of fitness, you don't see abs like that on many girls these days.

ok i know i said i was going to say out of it, but thanks bret for the compliment. i appreciate it & wish the insurance companies just looked at abs too;) debate on guys. i'm out on that crap! :P

"you can be the most educated person in the world, doctor, sturgeon"

by the way, i wish i was a sturgeon...i'd be nationally protected;)...ok maybe i've had too much beer tonight :thumps:

[rigdvr]

...and your eggs would be a delicacy:)

[bluedog]

...and your eggs would be a delicacy:)
:lol:

[bgbill]

Blah, blah, blah. Your level of intelligence clearly shows through with your posts, time and time again. I have never encountered someone who has such a closed mind and refuses to accept anything as a possibility other than what they think period. I never threatened your family jerk off. I threatened to call you at all hours, hoping it would annoy your family. Because you decided to try and chase me off the board by posting on every thread I posted and being an ass. If you wanna be such a dick, I can be a bigger dick. If people don't like it, I don't care! I'd just love to read a thread where you don't start being a dick to somebody. I know I can be a dick on this board to people sometimes too, but I don't go looking for confrontation.


Why are you such an angry person?

There is a book called "Angry All The Time" you might want to consider reading it.

[junior]

Based upon the sheer magnitude of stupid shit postings, I hereby nominate Stickitfishy for the first weekly "Ironhead Award":D

[bgbill]

Based upon the sheer magnitude of stupid shit postings, I hereby nominate Stickitfishy for the first weekly "Ironhead Award":D
:lol:

[jackpine savage]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6302043.stm

Bret, you will probably disagree with this article but its interesting.

[bgbill]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6302043.stm

Bret, you will probably disagree with this article but its interesting.

I skimmed through it, and what i gathered is the United States pays more for Health Care than anywhere else in the world, is that correct?

A couple of reasons that is is We have the Best care in the world, our rich people do not fly over to Great Brittain to get a heart transplant or other procedure done.

People from other countries come to the united states for health care.

We have the best doctors in the world here, my neighbor across the street from me in my old house was a doctor in cuba, yet over here, he can not practice medicine, because they don't have the same standards in cuba s the do in the US.

another reason is the government started getting involved with payment of services several years ago and now the prices are through the roof.

add to this the cost of malpractice insurance and the cost of bringing drugs to the market.

I know our system needs work, but once the Federal government gets involved, we will end up with an even more ****ed up system than we already have.

If socialized medicine is so great, why are people in Canada on waiting lists for surgery? and I am not talking about elective surgery.

[jackpine savage]

What struck me was the amount of GDP we pay for healthcare and our life expectancy and infan mortality rate are worse than most other developed nations. Also it points out how much more costs will be rising, that should be worrisome to all. I think one of the factors affecting the US is that most Americans don't practice preventive health care. As a nation we are in lousy shape, with over 50% pf adults overweight. The rate of childhood obesity is also risiing alarmingly. These are factors that will continue to contribute to rising healthcare rates. No amount of insurance reform will change that, only behavioral change and I don't see that happening.

[bgbill]

Childhood obesity and obesity in general in the United States is terrible, I am amazed at the amount of fat bastards there are in this country, look at kids these days, they always are eating junk food and drinking sodas.

The electric carts people are driving now in part is due to them being so fat they can't even walk.

This reminds me of a previous post of mine. :D

http://www.spearboard.com/showpost.php?p=386575&postcount=10

[Christof]

Hey Christof, I was trying to make a point. You have not been in this state very long and where you live it is dirt cheap compared to most of us(since you live somewhere in the middle of the state). The cost of living has increased dramatically in the last decade and wages and benefits have gone backwards. You happen to be in a field where there is a very high demand and for some reason there are not enough schools for it. Your wages are very high for this state compared to others who are working for someone. So actually, you don't understand where Swimsuit Whore is coming from nor do you I. I was trying to explain it to you, but I guess you don't get it. Should 2 hard-working people with college degrees and jobs for the state have to eat oat meal, stay home and watch non-cable t.v., in order to afford insurance or is something f-d up just a little?I think you misunderstood my post.... I was saying it was bullshit that state workers were so low paid... That is plain cheap... The pay I get here is a lot lower than any other state I could have taken contracts in... I was told two things.. "Everyone wants to go to Florida, so they dont have to raise the wages", and "the cost of living is so low"... The latter was bullshit.. Produce should be cheap here, but it is not. Orange juice you would think would be free, but it is actually cheaper up in Idaho (same brand).. Why are property taxes so high? Seems to me the number of schools here is pretty low, and mostly old folks in the county I live.. Yet the tax is 3 times what I paid for my home (same size home) in Idaho, or my home in Oregon..
I quit trying to figure it out, and dont get me wrong, this state has some really good points..
Anyway, just wanted to clear it up that I was not saying Jess was FOS with her statement, but the state is FOS for not giving it's employees health care...

[aaron proffitt]

Childhood obesity and obesity in general in the United States is terrible, I am amazed at the amount of fat bastards there are in this country, look at kids these days, they always are eating junk food and drinking sodas.

The electric carts people are driving now in part is due to them being so fat they can't even walk.

This reminds me of a previous post of mine. :D

http://www.spearboard.com/showpost.php?p=386575&postcount=10


Good point on the obesity factor.I am utterly amazed every year that I go to Japan and see the lack of fat there as opposed to here.Lotsa smokers there,though.

[Christof]

I dont smke, exercise and I am in pretty good shape. Why would they raise my insurance that much?
To pay for the slobs that do smoke, dont exercise, dont take care of themselves, and cost so much to care for..... I am all for choice, but I also believe that people should have to live with their choices... Of course, not in this country... You can smoke yourself to death, go to the hospital when you cant breathe anymore, and by god we will fix you up and send you on your merry way to smoke some more till the next time you nearly kill yourself... Repeat, repeat, repeat.... Someones got to pay for those folks... Oh, and the diabetics that dont care for themselves, and the cardiac folks that eat till they weigh 300 lbs, etc. etc.....

[Christof]

If you can't afford health insurance, how can you afford a boat?This really is what I was trying to say, that although the Hillaries of the country scream about all the poor people that are dying due to no health care coverage, but in reality the majority involved really choose not to work it into their lives... Who wants to pay out large sums when there is no instant gratifying return for their money?? I myself am one of those people.. I do pay, but it is part of my contract package... I am switching to a company that does not offer insurance, but higher pay.. I am now old and wise enough to know I need to have it, although paying out the $800/month that I will have to now will be tough to swallow...
Jess, you and Jeff live in the keys and work in the keys.. You love that, and who wouldnt.. But it is a choice, and before the taxpayers should have to provide healthcare for you (on a national level, you should recieve it as a Govt employee) you should do all you can yourself to obtain it, even moving out of paradise..
I also think the same for those that build right in hurricane alley, then think the govt should insure their million dollar home cause they cant get private insurance on it.. BS.. they chose to build/live there, no one should subsidize their choice...

[aaron proffitt]

To pay for the slobs that do smoke, dont exercise, dont take care of themselves, and cost so much to care for..... I am all for choice, but I also believe that people should have to live with their choices... Of course, not in this country...






And therein lies the much bigger problem,I would venture to say as much as illegal immigrant healthcare, the lack of personal responsibility.
Fact is if your a bad driver,your car insurance goes up. Why not a similar system in health insurance. Maybe we should implement a system where ALL taxpayers have to have yearly physicals and fill out surveys and then they are assesed by that on how much we pay into Medicare/Caid.Sound like a good idea ?
It is ,but it's also somewhat Big Brother-like.And I am not exactly comfortable with that either.

[Christof]

everyone pays taxes therefore everyone is eligible.Spoken like a true Massachusen[sp?]..... The low income not only dont pay taxes bub, but get a "bonus" (earned income credit, child credit) that surpasses most folks return (that DO pay taxes)... The wealthy pay far less percentage-wise due to their extreme loopholes and deductions... So that leaves people like you and me, the middle-income earners that carry most of the load..
I shudder to think of how many people think like you, that low income pay tax "just like everyone else"....

I did my daughters tax for her one year.. Single youngun with a child... She got every penny of her witholding back, plus an extra $2200 for the EIC and child credit.. She basically was rewarded for having a illegitimate child at 17, dropping out of school, and only making $8/hr...
We dont make people responsible for bad choices anymore..

I always wondered how you folks could keep electing that idiot Ted Kennedy, now it is a bit clearer.. :D ;)

[jackpine savage]

Thgose programs you speak of are federal withholdings. This is a state program. While poor people don't pay federal taxes until they hit a minimum threshold in MA they state paying state taxs at a much lower income. This program is for state residents do that takes awat any mention of illegals. If you work at 7-11 and you somehow make below the taxable minimum then your employer, I believe they must have overf 10 employees, picks up the share. The number they are taking about is 400-500/year if I remember. Ted Kennedy has nothing to do with this issue since it is at a state level. It was first initiated by Mitt Romney(R) but the newly elected Democrat governor is continuing along with it. I am all for it since it is better than having our state leaders sit on their asses while people complain. Say what you want about MA at least they are making an attempt to deal with the insurance issue.

[jackpine savage]

Christof here is alink explaining a little of what they are trying to do. The article points out that there are still a few issues that need to be hammered out but I feel its a step in the right direction
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/04/AR2006040401937.html

[Christof]

infant mortality rate are worse than most other developed nations.
Of course, they wont say why that is (would remove the :eek: factor)....
1) We have women who get pregnant that in other countries wouldnt think of trying it, i.e., health problems, old, poor, etc...
2) We are such a liberal country anymore that we allow crack-addicted sluts to have baby after baby after baby, who then either die or cost millions to keep alive.. Seen it firsthand.. But of course, we cant interfere with her "right" to reproduce...

I think it is so shameful for people to even try to compare our situation with that of countries like Somalia or Ethiopia, but many do.. Just like when I heard Hillary say "we have hundreds of thousands of people starving to death in the streets in this country"... Yeah Hillary? How about you show me one...
Oh, you mean the alcoholic, addicted, homeless guy that is malnourished due to his lifestyle??
That too doesnt sound as good as "starving to death in the street" does it...

Even our poorest have it good in this country.. Just go to Wal Mart on welfare check day and see for yourself.. Starving people dont weigh 300 lbs..

[Christof]

Christof here is alink explaining a little of what they are trying to do. The article points out that there are still a few issues that need to be hammered out but I feel its a step in the right direction
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/04/AR2006040401937.html
Good read, but I still have to wonder how many people's health coverage they could have paid for out of the overrun costs of the big dig alone... :D

I am all for helping people out, but only after they have done ALL they can to help themselves.... We expect so little of people anymore... Pathetic, and leading this country down a very bad road..

[jackpine savage]

Christof they are comparing the US to other developed countries like Japan, England, Germany and Italy. Why would you even think they are comparing the US to African nations.

[Mutt]

"by the way, i wish I was a sturgeon...i'd be nationally protected"

yes...protected and top dollar for sure......until schools of "Indian" Sturgeons swim across the pond and started offering their eggs for half price....and than that ole supply and demand curve would kick in once again...and all of the sudden...no more protection......although...I am sure that yours would always bring top tender!

[Christof]

Christof they are comparing the US to other developed countries like Japan, England, Germany and Italy. Why would you even think they are comparing the US to African nations.Sorry, I was referring to some in the far left that do compare our IMR with countries like the Sudan...
As far as industialized countries go, make some comparisons... How many crack babies does Japan have each year?? How many poor, filthy, welfare types having several babies in a row do they have in Germany?
That all needs to be taken into account.. We are backwards when it comes to things like drugs/sex and countries like Sweden, etc... But when it comes to allowing people to live their lives without responsibility, or productivity, we lead the pack... Thats a comparison study the left needs to do, but never will..
I wonder if Wal Marts in Germany (actually dont think there are any there) have the fatty carts at their front doors...

[jackpine savage]

Wal-Mart tried to enter the German market but failed, the morning ritual of singing the company song scared off employees, brought back bad memories of the 30's.
I think you overestimate the number of crack babies and welfare recipients in this country. Welfare roles have dropped dramatically since Clinton signed the welfare reform laws in the 90's.

[Killer&Griller]

Flat tax for everyone. Straight percentage, no exceptions.
If you don't file taxes, you don't get coverage on health insurance. Period
Crack down on BS medical lawsuits. Felony charges.
Crack down on BS medical claims. Felony charges.
A flat rate or some kind of base plan on all healthcare polices. From that point, you add the additional coverage that you want or need.
"Reward points" or incentives for not using the policy.

I too am self employed and my insurance is much higher than buddies with W2s.
There is no reason for it.

[aaron proffitt]

Flat tax for everyone. Straight percentage, no exceptions.
If you don't file taxes, you don't get coverage on health insurance. Period
Crack down on BS medical lawsuits. Felony charges.
Crack down on BS medical claims. Felony charges.
A flat rate or some kind of base plan on all healthcare polices. From that point, you add the additional coverage that you want or need.
"Reward points" or incentives for not using the policy.

I too am self employed and my insurance is much higher than buddies with W2s.
There is no reason for it.


Good ideas...however,how do we define 'BS' suits and claims ? Aside from the more obvious ones,anyway. It's all a very slippery slope.
Liked the rewards points idea.

[Killer&Griller]

Workers comp for example. How many of us know of BS it that. They even have tv shows about it and funniest videos.

Our judicial system as a whole is screwed. Long process, corrupt, money motivated, etc. You'd have to work on that before fixing another. Start with a large problem in the healthcare system first. If you don't qualify by being a citizen or filing taxes, you don't get coverage. Want to fix the immigration problem? Why is it illegal for a police officer to ask someone that he has pulled over for papers? At least it is in NC. Profiling, come on, if they have trouble speaking english, ask for their visa. We are too politically correct. Keep in mind that NC is the fastest growing hispanic population in the US right now. Construction, Christmas trees, and farming keep up going. Crack down on immigration, that is easy. Hit them were it hurts. Money. If you don't have a verified tax number, you can not do any banking, period. Now if they can't cash a check, they can't spend money. No wire transfers, no groceries, nothing. I would have no problem walking into a bank and giving a ID number to cash a check if it was going to weed out problems in our society. After one year, if the checks cashed didn't equal what was reported, or even close, that person was cashing checks for others and has their privies revoked. Don't kid yourself and think that uncle sam isn't cross referencing your accounts already to some aspect. Just a thought for a start.

[aaron proffitt]

Do you realize the expense of that system ? It would be substantial and quite possibly come close to the taxpayer-burdened programs as they are now.
Nevermind the fact that,again, their is way to much gov. oversight required of that program. Quite frankly, citizens shouldn't have to endure that kind of Big Brothering;especially not to that degree.I agree that the gov. most likely is watching us at some level,but that's a far cry from Uncle Sam watching my e-mails for key words like 'bomb' and 'attack'(HELLO NSA ! Hope your having a great afternoon !) to them monitoring what I deposit into the bank.

[Marcus]

Damn this thread is growing fast.

Bret (with one t),
Aren't group plans much like socialized insurance? Same concept?

Jess, you're a class act.

Bob, stop throwing rocks at the hornet's nest. It's annoying.

I read that national healthcare was cheaper than privatized? Also, that some countries with national healthcare were more healthy as a whole? We're paying for it now...anyway, right?? I have good insurance through my job and no health issues. I certainly have empathy for anyone having pre-existing conditions (would try hard not to let the insurance companies find out about that) and have to pay for their health insurance individually.

[aaron proffitt]

Damn this thread is growing fast.

Bret (with one t),
Aren't group plans much like socialized insurance? Same concept?

.

Marcus, I can honestly say I had never looked at it that way.Thanks for the insight.

Bret, as a business owner who carries health insurance on your employees...would it be cheaper for you in the long run to pay the higher tax to subsidize national healthcare or to continue to pay your employees health insurance as well as your families premium ?

[Mikerotch]

The primary consideration for any discussion of socialized medicine is that there is absolutely nothing government can do more efficiently than the free market. That being said, the only case that can be made for such is if, in fact, we all have an obligation to pay for someone else's medical care. For those of you that believe we do, I simply have one question. Since there is no law preventing you from buying someone else's coverage on their behalf, how many of you are currently paying for someone else's coverage now ? I thought so. Once you start voluntarily paying out of your own pocket for them, then come ask me to donate and I most certainly will. The other consideration that should always be in the process is, as Thomas Sowell so eloquently puts it, " Politicians are seldom willing to solve any problem by simply stopping what they have been doing to create the problem. Instead, they come up with new programs that ignore the real cause." If one objectively looks at the spiraling cost of healthcare there is one correlation that is indisputable. The increase in costs have been directly proportional to the increase in government attempts to curtail them. The other of his quotes that most certainly applies, whether one believes it or not is
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics."

- Thomas Sowell

Mikerotch, Rabidly opposed to government healthcare

[jackpine savage]

How do you know that the free market can run health care more effectively. Studies have shown that the government run plans of Medi-Care and Medi-Caid are both run more cost efffectively than private insurers. Health Insurance isn't operating iin a true free market place. Each state regulates insurance based upon its own laws, insurance companies spend 10's of millions lobbying the government, both federal and state, to make the field more friendly to them. If it were truly free market then someone who hasn't used their insurance in teh past 10 years would see thier rates decline. Why hasn't this happened.

[aaron proffitt]

To add to that, it's my experience that big health company plans really don't operate that much different than the gov. does to begin with.Every bit as bureaucratic,even denying patients treatment(or rather to pay for it ) cause they decided the patient doesn't/didn't need it. They like to play Dr..

[Mikerotch]

Jack, you answered your own question. Believe me, I'm no advocate of insurance as it is currently administered. The problems that accompany it are all created by government intervention. You said it yourself, "Health Insurance isn't operating iin a true free market place. Each state regulates insurance based upon its own laws, insurance companies spend 10's of millions lobbying the government, both federal and state, to make the field more friendly to them."
"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators."

- P. J. O'Rourke

In a true free market goods and services are always becoming more cost effective as well as superior in quality. It is the nature of the beast. As our health care market becomes more and more subsidized and regulated the inevitable occurs; quality and service decline and costs go up. Contrary to what politicians claim, there really is no such thing as a free lunch. If we empower the state to write checks for our care, there is only one account they may draw on; ours. In the meanwhile, we have, in the best case, hired one additional person to go between ourselves and the doctor. In the case of federal administration, we will employ thousands. The good or service they will provide will be of absolutely no increase to our overall wealth while at the same time constituting a drain. As Frederic Bastiat so aptly put it:

"Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state, they forget that the state lives at the expense of everyone."

And Aaron, you are correct in your statement concerning the insurance companies, but the reason is, is that entry into that market is very limited by, guess who, our government with their myriads of red tape and rules. Were it not for that, it would be more like other insurance that is much more competitive, for example auto. In which case, you could always move to someone providing better service and/or lower costs.

As someone smarter than me once put it, "If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait till it's free."

Mikerotch, advocate of free markets

[jackpine savage]

You and I knkow that it isn't going to get better. So how does one go about making health care more affordable. I haven't seen anyone mention any ideas except what I have mentioned the State of MA is proposing. I speak of ideas that actually have a chance of working. I think tort reform is the first step. My grandfather didn;t worry about malpractice insurance when he practiced medicine from the 30's-60's. Thats a first step in bringing cost down.

[Mikerotch]

If I were a betting man, I'm with you---It's not going to get any better.
But as to the question "how do we make healthcare more affordable " ,
there are a couple of answers : Competition. Government edicts will only hold price down at the expense of supply. (See Mr. Nixon's "wage and price controls" and the resulting lines at the gas stations) Nixon's government soulution was disasterous. Reagan, on the other hand, deregulated the oil industry which led to more competition and record low gas prices throughout the 80's and into the 90's. There is no reason to believe that we couldn't and wouldn't see the same results in healthcare. Tort reform is another. If we would simply institute "losers pay" there would be no need for any other action. "Loser pays" introduces the court system to what works in the business world. That is, if the potential cost of a frivolous lawsuit is great enough, the demand for such will decrease. The decreased cost will then lead to decreased healthcare costs. In the meantime, I would hope we replace government edicts with good American competition.

"Competition is conducive to the continuous improvements of industrial efficiency. It leads…producers to eliminate wastes and cut costs so that they may undersell others…. It weeds out those whose costs remain high and thus operates to concentrate production in the hands of those whose costs are low."

- Clair Wilcox
Competition and Monopoly in American Industry, Monograph no. 21, 1940.


Mikerotch, would be economist.

[stickitfishy]

Why does America's health as a whole suck? Ever hear the saying you are what you eat? It is true. There are more chemicals, hormones etc. in our foods today than at any time in our lives. The human species has not evolved fast enough in the last 100 years to deal with these artificial ingredients. Vegetables now come from nutrient depleted soils and full of pesticides. Our bodies can only handle so much poison before they start having problems. Why is so much crap allowed in our foods? Ask the food and drug administration, the guys who allow the toxic foods and drugs come to market. I could go deeper and explain how the human body surrounds poisons with fat to try and keep them out of the bloodstream, but who listens to Stickitfishy anyways? By the way, go look at your deodorant label and see the word aluminum, it is also used as a caking agent in table salt. Do you guys know what aluminum causes in old age? So why is it in our salt and why is it being rubbed into our armpits everyday? There are alternatives out there. Food for thought.

[bgbill]

By the way, go look at your deodorant label and see the word aluminum, it is also used as a caking agent in table salt. Do you guys know what aluminum causes in old age?

I did, but I can't remember now. :confused:




Seriously though, there is no conclusive proof it causes alzheimers, but it should be a concern.

[100days-a-year]

Tort reform is a bitter pill as well.
WorkComp is FUBARed in Fla as much by the legislature selling out to Ins lobbyists as fraud and our litigious society.
A great example of how bad it can get.Max benefits are like 1/2 a mill for total payments and disability.Not bad if living on SSI and what's left after the lawyers and docs get done are within your current lifestyle.Pretty crappy if you weren't a WalMart greeter when you got hurt.

[Bodhi]

I always told myself I would never reply to one of these posts on a fishing page. Healthcare this, healthcare that... Bush is awesome... Bush Sucks... Politics... blah, blah, blah...
Though, I cannot believe the ignorance of the people posting on this thread who think that healthcare in this country is A#1, and that the people that do not have it suffer due to personal choice. "Hey, there's no problem here... Emergency rooms'll take you if anything comes up... Hey, it's your choice to work that lame job with no benefits... Hey, you chose to live in South Florida where it sucks for anyone making anything less than $100,000 a year, but it's your choice not to make enough money"

The starting salary for a public school teacher in this state runs an average of $33,000 a year and is usually (depending on the county) covered with a some what decent HMO. That's ~$600 a week...$2400 a month to be generous. Fair enough? Let's assume that same teacher wants to provide healthcare for his wife and newborn child. $400 a month for the wife and $350 for the child. That's $750 per month for coverage. Ok, $1650 left. Rent $1100 (can't afford to buy in S Florida because a single family home south of Palm Beach in a decent neighborhood goes for about $450,000), Electric at a conservative $130, phone at $40. Well, that leaves me with about $380 for food, gas, cloths for a growing baby... Did I mention that this teacher has $45,000 in student loans to pay off... Wait, what if something comes up? Car breaks down? Dental work needed? Oh yeah, this is all prior to taxes. That $380 just turned into next to nothing...
Yes, that teacher is (or better "was") me. I did end up giving up what I loved to support my family. I taught for around five years, and loved every minute of it. I had to quit and find a job with better benefits to support my family. I did not want to quit teaching, but could not get around it.
Don't want this to turn into a discussion on teacher's pay. There are literally thousands of job titles that have it worse. But, spending 40% of your net income on health insurance seems a bit wrong. Don't you think?
Sure, I have a job now where I have a larger annual take and better benefits; however, does that make it right to deny, yes, deny, CONTINUOUS healthcare to people who do not? A "free" emergency room visit does not remedy the chronic conditions that require the care of specialists. Sure, have an attack, an outbreak, whatever. "Free" emergency!!! Wow this country is great. But a chronic condition that requires continued care, you'd better quit your lame, meaningless (for example:teaching) job and get a good, respectable one to cover your family.
Whatever the new healthcare plan is, it's got to be better than what we have now. Big business or the RIGHT to healthcare in one of the most wealth countries in the world?

[bgbill]

Big business or the RIGHT to healthcare in one of the most wealth countries in the world?

Please show me in the Constitution or a Court ruling that healthcare is a "Right".

[jackpine savage]

We, the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Bret that is the preamble to the Constitution. Promote the general welfare can be interpreted many ways, how would you interpret it?. You see what made Jefferson, Adams and the rest of the boys such geniuses is that they new they couldn't predict what the future laid for this country so they created a document that can be interpreted continually.

[bgbill]

We, the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Bret that is the preamble to the Constitution. Promote the general welfare can be interpreted many ways, how would you interpret it?. You see what made Jefferson, Adams and the rest of the boys such geniuses is that they new they couldn't predict what the future laid for this country so they created a document that can be interpreted continually.

If you want to interpret the Constitution's preamble to include healthcare, I think I deserve some hot little spinner action (paid for by the Government of course) because that would go a long way in helping my general welfare.

[jackpine savage]

And how do you interpret that clause? You should also ask yourself what is in the long term interest of this nation, affordable health care or spiraling health costs and an ever increasing number of bankruptcys due to large medical bills. The number one cause of bankruptcy in this country isn't foolish spending its medical related debt. Should someone lose their home because they become sick? Its not a matter of free health care but afforadable health care. Their is a difference, most people without health insurance would buy it if it were affordable. The health insurance industry is charging what it does beacuase there is nothing you can do about it. If you don't like it they drop you. That isn't free market that is monopolistic and they have had the Congress in their pockets because they can scare people with the "socialized medicine" mantra. If, God forbid, you were to develop a debilitating disease your insurance comanbpy would do everythinh it can to drop you from its rolls, don't kid yourself that they are on your side because you are on time with your payments.

Christ I can't wait till spring to dive.

[Bodhi]

So, you don't think that those who's jobs don't provide, or income cannot support healthcare have a right to it? If it hasn't been written in a document yet, let's write the damn thing already. We've somehow found a way to fund a lot of things in this country. Why not universal healthcare?
Do you think your monthly income tax would raise more than $750 if this were to happen? I doubt it.

[Mikerotch]

Bodhi, I hate to side with BG on this one, but what you have done is made a bad assumption. There is no "right" to any good or service in the U.S. Constitution, nor is there anyway to provide all the goods or services that any given individual may deem necessary. ( Constitutional or not ) As Thomas Sowell accurately states : "The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it." What you have done with your life is made a value judgement in that it is worth more to you to provide for your family than it is to work in your first choice of jobs. I have done likewise. I would rather spearfish for a living, but unfortunately I can't produce enough to meet my obligations, so I must do something else.
Jackpine, your interpretation of the Constitution preamble is very similar to today's politicians, hence a 3 TRILLION dollar budget. Whatever they think is good is covered under the "general welfare" clause.

Mikerotch, charity advocate, welfare opponent

[bgbill]

I think the Rights were in the Bill of Rights.

Unfortunately the constitution says one thing yet the court rules the other way.

One prime example is Roe v. Wade, it is based on the privacy issue a womans right to choose, yet a woman can not choose to do drugs or become a prostitute, yet according to the Supreme court she does have the right to choose.

Also there is no seperation of church and state, the government just can not establish a state religion, yet the court says there is a wall of seperation of church and state, show me where it says that in the Constitution.

I should have the right to be left the **** alone and the government not to keep sticking their hand in my pocket, yet because we have some power hungry politicians, they can do whatever they want to.

If the 2nd ammendment was interpreted the way the 1st ammendment is, there would be virtually no gun laws, which btw only the law abiding citizen follows, if murder is already a crime, what good is it to outlaw a gun?

[bgbill]

So, you don't think that those who's jobs don't provide, or income cannot support healthcare have a right to it? If it hasn't been written in a document yet, let's write the damn thing already. We've somehow found a way to fund a lot of things in this country. Why not universal healthcare?
Do you think your monthly income tax would raise more than $750 if this were to happen? I doubt it.

Bodhi,

I have a great idea,

How about you take care of yourself and your family, meaning you find a way to pay for your own healthcare.

And I will take care of my family and pay for their healthcare.

Is that fair?

one of the reasons the US has so much debt is because the Governmnet has an unrealistic view that they can pay for every whim that the people cna come up with.

Whatever happened to personal responsibilty?

[Bodhi]

I do take care of my family and their healthcare. But, I have an education and the option to do that in the world we live in. What about those who either are not willing to go into an enormous amount of debt for education, or, for whatever reason, just work certain jobs out of necessity? Screw them, right? They should just go to the emergency room whenever their kid gets an ear ache?
There has to be a better solution. My benefits are currently free. My family is now covered for nothing. Is that fair? I don't delude myself. My current job has absolutely nothing positive to contribute to society but the generation of more revenue for the company I work for and the people that buy the products I sell... which, by the way, are luxuries not necessary for societal well being. (Edit... Wow, I just read that... not much of a salesman am I? :D )Hey, it works for me and my family, but what about the other guy? Well, I guess he's the other guy, so it's his problem.
Call it what you will, but "socialized" doesn't seem such a bad idea when you place the label in front of healthcare.
I do support my family's healthcare. You do what you do for your family. But, what happens if you can't do it for whatever reason? Even if it's just for a month? In the immortal words of Forest Gump: "Things" happen, and hospital visits are quite expensive for the uninsured, man.
:beer:

[aaron proffitt]

If you want to interpret the Constitution's preamble to include healthcare, I think I deserve some hot little spinner action (paid for by the Government of course) because that would go a long way in helping my general welfare.



Brett,
Still curious how the expense to you as a bus. man would be different with socialized med. vs. the already high premiums you pay for your family and employees.

[aaron proffitt]

Hey, you chose to live in South Florida where it sucks for anyone making anything less than $100,000 a year, but it's your choice not to make enough money"




Bodhi,
Someone once said to me on here why I was "stuck" in OK....you just answered the question.
As a fed. emploee(for now) I have the option of living anywhere in the country we wish and for a time we were looking at the Petersburg area.As a sort of litmus test for the cost of living ;first I will pull up the starting pay for Police Officers in the area and then the cost of real estate.Normally I use a search for the type of property we have already here in OK.
Repeatedly in that area,I found the pay for Police in that area comparable to what is already paid to cops here.Not bad until you compare to the cost of real estate down there. Currently, we have a 2000 sq. ft. home on 2.5 acres. After looking at homes in that area of roughly that same size,forget about it. And even much smaller homes and tracts were still way more expensive than what ours appraised for.Final desision was to keep our happy asses right here in OK and fly down to the coast every now and then to dive,as well as find a way to be content diving the freshwater 'round here.
I guess all that to say this,God Bless you guys who live in paradise.You've paid for the privelige.

[SEATUX]

Just got a statement for Laboratory work done on me. Bill was $842.65 My insurance disallowed $708.18 (*by a contractual agreement/Blue Cross Blue Shield) and paid $121.07 leaving me w/$13.40 to pay. Don’t you have to wonder? The reason Blue Cross can knock it down so much is they control so much business, But wait, there is a move to implement new legislation, it would penalize people that are covered under large group plans and give tax breaks to independents. At first glance it might look as tho someone is trying to help those w/out medical insurance, but maybe it’s the providers that are fed up with being knocked down by the big group insurances and this way they divide and conquer, “united we stand, divided we fall” applies to buying medical insurance as well, your rates as and individual are far from those negotiated as a large group. BUT BY ALL MEANS, LETS NOT LET THE GOV STEP IN AND REGULATE WHAT THE PROVIDERS CAN CHARGE! After all isn’t this a “free” market? You get hosed and pay the $842.65 and I pay the $13.40

[SEATUX]

keezdiver
Resident Fish Biologist

It sucks that as a State Employee you arent provided w/good health insurance and pension benifits. But that seems to be the way this country is going now.

[Wayward Son]

I am fundamentaly, completely opposed to socialized medicine in America.

I also predict that we will see it happen within my life (I'm 45). We have, IMO, passed the critical point where a larger percentage of people are dependent on govt than not & if you're not the one paying the bill, you tend to not have any problems with making those who can, do it.

Personal responsibility is now an archaic phrase that has little meaning in current society. We have not had a free market in health care in decades & as Mike has observed, the longer & more that govt has meddled with it, the most expensive it has become.

[aaron proffitt]

As much as I agree with you,Wayword, I believe we're pretty much already there.And again,as big as companies like Blue Cross/Blue Shield are, they damn near function like a bureaucracy anyway.It's a runaway train,my friend.

[Wayward Son]

A major part of the problem, when it comes to solving it, is that it isn't any one thing. We can point to trial attorneys, govt meddling, the massive costs incurred for treating illegals, etc et al, and while every one of them are indeed major contributing issues, fixing one will not fix the problem.

Though each are big enough that fixing any one of them would go a long way to slowing it down.

[Wayward Son]

I have only read bits about what MA is attempting. Not enough to really have an informed opinion on any specifics of it.

I can offer this opinion of it, though: Give it some time to see how it works in real life before thinking about committing the entire country to it. If it turns out to work well over a few years, it may prove to be a model worth emulating.

However, TN a while back decided that they could run it better than the feds, opted out of medicare/medicaid entirely & set up TennCare. In a very few short years it damn near bankrupted the state. A republican governor who ran against a state income tax ended up trying to get one in his 2nd term bc he couldn't figure out how to pay for or fix the system that the dem before him created.

He didn't get it, changes were made, then a dem got elected & I lost track of the issue. I dunno what they ended up doing about it, but they had to do something drastic as how they started proved un-sustainable.

Lesson learned: Don't assume that the great idea on paper will actually function as predicted with real people in play. Try it with the full expectation that it may well flop & need serious reworking as you go.

[kaborkian]

I have insurance now. I think life is about living. Which means doing something you enjoy when not working. Not sitting home, insured and not living/being miserable because you can't afford squat.


I haven't read through all of this thread, but this one struck me. It's the KEY to the whole issue.

Many of the un-insured don't feel like spending their hard earned money on insurance, so they can pursue happiness (or whatever). That's all fine and dandy, but don't expect me to pay for your healthcare when you break a leg on that ski trip you took instead of buying a year's insurance. THAT WAS A CHOICE YOU MADE, NOW DEAL WITH IT.

Socialism is a BAD thing. The reason Clinton thinks it's so good is because she can get a SHITLOAD of votes from the poor by pushing it. It ONLY affects her in a good way, ie: to increase her power. You think public healthcare will make one bit of difference, other than getting her votes, to her life? Consider on the other hand how much taxes have to be increased so people like me can pay for public healthcare...

Look at Canada. Public healthcare (takes WEEKS to see a doctor I hear, and even then shitty quality of care), 50%+ income tax, low value of money. Yep, sounds like a good plan to me... :rolleyes:

[aaron proffitt]

Consider on the other hand how much taxes have to be increased so people like me can pay for public healthcare...

:


OK...this is the point I am stuck on;wouldn't the increase in taxes be off-set by the premiums we already pay ? What am I missing ?

[jackpine savage]

I am opposed to socialized medicine also. I do think the state can help to initiate a plan where you are forced to join or risk being penalized. Maybe its my definition of socialized medicine which I associated with a freebie. I think the state should provide low cost catastrophic insurance that every one must have and pay for. The governent should n't pick up the tab but they can offer a better deal than the private insurers, if private comapnies can get a lower rate all the better. If you wish to supplement that plan with a more comprehensive private plan then by all means do so. I also agree with the idea of personal responsibilty, people have to take better care of themselves. Just because thgere is a McDonalds around the corner doesn't mean you have to eat there every day.

[kaborkian]

OK...this is the point I am stuck on;wouldn't the increase in taxes be off-set by the premiums we already pay ? What am I missing ?

Sort of...

I (as many of us do) get a healthcare benefit from my employer. You think all those employers are passing out $8000/year raises when they don't have to pay up for healthcare anymore? Maybe some, but mainly no.

Also, some of the proposed plans only benefit people in certain income levels, so again, the middle-class get the shaft.

80% of the population will be affected negatively. The rich won't be affected at all, and the poor make out.

[Christof]

Flat tax for everyone. Straight percentage, no exceptions.
If you don't file taxes, you don't get coverage on health insurance. Period
Crack down on BS medical lawsuits. Felony charges.
Crack down on BS medical claims. Felony charges.
A flat rate or some kind of base plan on all healthcare polices. From that point, you add the additional coverage that you want or need.
"Reward points" or incentives for not using the policy.

I too am self employed and my insurance is much higher than buddies with W2s.
There is no reason for it.AMEN!

K&G for Prez!!!

[aaron proffitt]

OK...I'm tracking,sort of.

Let's say that I am paying 35 % of my annual income towards taxes and then roughly an additional $200 a month towards my group plan. Would I end up paying more than this all together ya think ? :confused:

[kaborkian]

Sort of...

I (as many of us do) get a healthcare benefit from my employer. You think all those employers are passing out $8000/year raises when they don't have to pay up for healthcare anymore? Maybe some, but mainly no.

Also, some of the proposed plans only benefit people in certain income levels, so again, the middle-class get the shaft.

80% of the population will be affected negatively. The rich won't be affected at all, and the poor make out.


Oh yea, one more thing. Increase in taxes will be percentage based with cuts for the poor. So again, poor pay nothing, while middle class pays more and many (like myself) won't save on healthcare because it's employer supplied.

[Christof]

Another big problem touched lightly in here is personal accountability... I think it is minimized on this board just how much I see at work as not a good picture of things as they are.... I can tell you one thing as fact... Most middle to upper-income people WITH insurance tend to be more healthy and use their healthcare the least... Most of this is due I feel to premiums, deductables, and co-pays... The poor have none of those. Yet, they seem to be the worst at taking care of themselves... I cant think of one person on disability (although their may have been some) that were generally healthy people who happened to get sick... They tend to be diabetic or "lungers" (COPD, Emphysema), overweight to grossly obese, with multiple medical problems.. Where do we start drawing the line on responsibility to care for yourself when the taxpayers are paying for your healthcare? Do you all realize that someone that works and pays for insurance that is morbidly obese cannot get the surgical diet procedure (gasric bypass) because it is "elective", but someone on medicaid can get it with no deductable or co-pay?? That is f*d up..
We also really need to deal with the issue of using ER services inappropriately as a clinic, this costs billions to the taxpayers.. I think if medicaid recipients were to have at least a $20 co-pay, they may think twice about stupid ER visits... "Hmmmm, if I pay this co-pay, I wont have enough for my cigs"... Of course that may be oversimplification, but something needs to be done... I myself have a $500 deductable, and if I go to ER and it is deemed not an emergency, I pay the bill... If I am admitted for treatment, then it is paid and the deductable waived.. Seems fair to me... Sure makes me think twice about going to the ER, but if I had chest pain then it would work out just fine and the bill would be paid...
We have a thing called "QMP" at work where if your complaint is not deemed an emergency, you are given the choice of paying for the service yourself or waiting and going to the clinic/MD office for treatment... Idea sounds great but guess what.. The medicaid people can demand to be seen, and medicaid will pay no matter if it is an emergency or not.. I have seen them come in for as little as a wart... Oh, and the "I have abdominal pain" and they simply want a preg test so they dont have to buy one... Several of those every time I work.... Then when we have the results of the test, they refuse the other standard tests for abd pain (x ray, ct) and walk out... A bed wasted, 1 hr of paperwork, and they got their pregnancy test for free.... Shameful.

I dont know what the answer is, but "blanket" coverage just doesnt seem to be the answer... People need to start being held to a standard, and expected to toe the line especially if someone else is footing the bill...

[Killer&Griller]

If I go to ER and it is deemed not an emergency, I pay the bill... If I am admitted for treatment, then it is paid and the deductable waived.. Seems fair to me... Sure makes me think twice about going to the ER, but if I had chest pain then it would work out just fine and the bill would be paid...

The problem that you would run into there would be "interpretation" by the hospital. The hospital is a private industry that doesn't want to loose business. Then again, if there were a crack down on paying hospital bills, the hospital would change the guidelines for its own protection and sooner or later, the consumer would catch it. I think you would have a catch 22 if there were a diagnosis done by someone other than a doctor, then again, who is going to decide what an emergency is? Insurance companies are going to pass the buck along with the hospitals.

[Killer&Griller]

AMEN!

K&G for Prez!!!

I'd get shot before being sworn in. Once people found out that I wouldn't approve things like :

Duke University getting a 2 million dollar grant to study the sex life of a grub.

Stop giving big companies tax breaks that cost the comsumers, like Charlotte just did for Nascar, Bobcats arena, light rail system, etc.

Stop pussy footing around the immigration problem.

Even out our trade policies.

Not selling off so much of the US dirt to other countries / non citizens. 50% + of the US is not US owned.

ETC ETC ETC

[Killer&Griller]

What happens in 2010 when the "baby boomers" start retiring and we realize that here isn't enough in SS to make the checks? Mark my words, you are going to see some major fuster clucks when that gets here.

VA hospitals are a joke most of the time.

How do you change the priority of a private industry from capital gains to true consumer welfare?

[Mikerotch]

Christof, every problem you mention is accurate and a direct result of state (taxpayer)funded healthcare. It is without any doubt that a logical conclusion of any rational person would be that more state will simply lead to more problems, waste, abuse, etc. When forced to pay for one's own healthcare, people tend to take better care of themselves and use the resources more efficiently. When allowed to compete in a free market, providers will no doubt improve quality while simultaneously reducing costs. Examples of healthy competition :
Televisions $459.00 for a 19" color when I was little, $ 159.00for 27" color today
Computers $ 2,500 for a Commodore 64 k in college ( 1984)
$ 500.00 for a i Gig today (2007) -- 64,000 vs 1 Billion for 20% of cost

1980 --- 10 meg hard drive $ 15,000.00 (1980 dollars)
2007 --- 200 gig hard drive $ 100.00 ( 2007 dollars)
real dollars -- cost per unit -- need a computer, can't figure

Let the market work. We all win.

Mikerotch market advocate

[gumshoe]

What happens in 2010 when the "baby boomers" start retiring and we realize that here isn't enough in SS to make the checks? Mark my words, you are going to see some major fuster clucks when that gets here.

VA hospitals are a joke most of the time.

How do you change the priority of a private industry from capital gains to true consumer welfare?

Craig,

Step away from the computer and make your woman some dinner.


:D

I know this much - I'm just a shade better off as a state employee scraping to get by than if i were unemployed and living on welfare. The guy that works in my office as a custodian takes his kids to the best Dr. and Dentist for free and I have to plan trips to those on our "plan" very carefully.

[Killer&Griller]

We, the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Bret that is the preamble to the Constitution. Promote the general welfare can be interpreted many ways, how would you interpret it?. You see what made Jefferson, Adams and the rest of the boys such geniuses is that they new they couldn't predict what the future laid for this country so they created a document that can be interpreted continually.

And how do you interpet this clause?

The key word here is interpetation.

Welfare economics is concerned with the welfare of individuals, as opposed to groups, communities, or societies because it assumes that the individual is the basic unit of measurement. It also assumes that individuals are the best judges of their own welfare, that people prefer greater welfare to less welfare, and that welfare can be adequately measured either in monetary terms or as a relative preference. One key factor here is the relative preference that would be taken away by a completely socialist healthcare system.

social welfare would be any government program which seeks to provide a minimum level of income, service or other support for disadvantaged groups such as the poor, elderly, disabled and students. Social welfare payments and services are typically provided free of charge or at a nominal fee, and are funded by the state, or by compulsory enrollment of the poor themselves.
The kicker is that most of the "compulsory enrollment" is an absolute atrocity in itself.

The problem that we have right now is the marginal rates of substitution syndrome, whereas no consumer can be made better off without making others worse off, which is not a feasible way to address any problem.

The true problem in not in defining what the problems are, but where to start.

[Killer&Griller]

Craig,

Step away from the computer and make your woman some dinner.


:D


Hey, where is the trip report and pics? I checked the region and --- nothing.

[SEATUX]

Come on guys, look at the big picture. I can show you all day long how someone like Blue Cross Blue Shield gets the bills knocked down. In my last example only 16% of the original bill was allowed, and the lab/hospital agreed to that. If Blue cross can knock It down by 84% what do you think the government is doing w/medicare/medicade!? When you start out with a $842.65 bill and get it down to $134.82 who needs insurance? Even the poor could find a way to pay there bills. The medical profession is screwing us blind, just like the utilitie monopolies would without government intervention. What we are experiencing is not free compitition, but price fixing by the medical industry

[Killer&Griller]

Come on guys, look at the big picture. I can show you all day long how someone like Blue Cross Blue Shield gets the bills knocked down. In my last example only 16% of the original bill was allowed, and the lab/hospital agreed to that. If Blue cross can knock It down by 84% what do you think the government is doing w/medicare/medicade!? When you start out with a $842.65 bill and get it down to $134.82 who needs insurance? Even the poor could find a way to pay there bills. The medical profession is screwing us blind, just like the utilitie monopolies would without government intervention. What we are experiencing is not free compitition, but price fixing by the medical industry

So at what point does a private industry switch to an enity that has government intervention. I think the fuel industry is there, if you say that it has to be on the broad spectrum that affects consumers.

Ross Perot for president. Run it like a business. :D

[Christof]

Come on guys, look at the big picture. I can show you all day long how someone like Blue Cross Blue Shield gets the bills knocked down. In my last example only 16% of the original bill was allowed, and the lab/hospital agreed to that. If Blue cross can knock It down by 84% what do you think the government is doing w/medicare/medicade!? When you start out with a $842.65 bill and get it down to $134.82 who needs insurance? Even the poor could find a way to pay there bills. The medical profession is screwing us blind, just like the utilitie monopolies would without government intervention. What we are experiencing is not free compitition, but price fixing by the medical industryTux, you dont see the big picture... Medicaid abuse/overuse costs a lot of money, and many times they wont pay or pay very little to the hospital... Medicare is worse... Old people are really expensive to take care of, and use a lot of the more expensive tests/machines (EKG's, Cardiac profile tests, Ventilators, etc..) but the reimbursement to the hospital stands at around 33% up to 50% for the more critical... Then you throw in the illegals with no medicaid or insurance that will be gone in a month or two and dont pay the bill... That is why the hospitals have such inflated costs.. I am not an economic major, so I dont understand the full logistics of it and outwardly it looks like gouging.. But I always (until this latest contract) have worked for religious, not-for-profit hospitals and it is the same there... An injection that costs the hospital $38 is charged out at around $200.... The reduced bill to insurance companies takes into account and removes this inflated cost.. And that is only for those that agree to the PPO thing.. If I go out of the "plan area", I pay BIG TIME...
Again, if we can even simply get the hundreds of thousands of medicaid recipients in this state to quit going to an ER every time they have a sliver or sniffle, start kicking lawyers asses for stupid lawsuits (he didnt know smoking would kill him... Give me a break), then we would have much more money to cover more people that really need the help, like Keez and Jess... Only so much money to go around, and to me, priority should go to those that are busting their asses to make a living...

[gumshoe]

Hey, where is the trip report and pics? I checked the region and --- nothing.

The only trip we took was to the Univ. pool, if I had a camera, there coulda been plenty of pictures, but, alas, I did not.

Sorry for the derail of your resolution to the health care crisis...

[SEATUX]

I always (until this latest contract) have worked for religious, not-for-profit hospitals and it is the same there... An injection that costs the hospital $38 is charged out at around $200.... The reduced bill to insurance companies takes into account and removes this inflated cost.. And that is only for those that agree to the PPO thing.. If I go out of the "plan area", I pay BIG TIME...
...
And that is a "RELIGIOUS, NOT-FOR-PROFIT HOSPITAL" hosing everyone, in a good religious sort of way. Bring the charges down to where they should be and you wont need medicade/medicare/health insurance, etc! We are being screwed !

[mcjaret]

I came into this late. A few thoughts:

Plato said democracy was doomed because the people would figure out they could vote benefits to themselves and crash the system.

Bodhi, your coverage is not free. You may not pay out of pocket personally but the company, and thereby, your customers are paying for the services you receive.

Contrary to common opinion, lawyers do not spear clients off street corners, drag them back ino the office and force them to sue for crazy things. Nor do they make decisions that pay people for their own stupidity. Everyday folk on juries do that after hearing from lawyers on both sides.

Machine gunning poor mexicans trying to cross the border won't solve all the problems of the nation.

There is no free lunch. A closer study of some of the "single payer" options used in other countries, like Britain, indicates a whole new set of problems. People die waiting on the list for treatment because there is not enough to go around. Are certain statistics better there -- yes, but if we had a more uniform population, our number might be better.

SW, come to the dark side! You don't understand the power of the dark side.

[Christof]

Contrary to common opinion, lawyers do not spear clients off street corners, drag them back ino the office and force them to sue for crazy things. Maybe not, but they step real close to that line... Anyone else seen the commercial of late that simply says "Have you or a loved one suffered a stroke, heart attack, or other dabilitating illness. Are you taking any medications? If so, contact us at...."
If that aint fishing, I dont know what is... Cases like the Vioxx suit (thousands of suits still pending) are a big part of the problem, and people didnt make those suits up, lawyer scum did... I took Vioxx for years with great benefit, now I have a weird heart problem... I guess I should jump on the bandwagon and make myself, er, the lawyers rich...

I have been involved in 2 class action lawsuits (simply for being a part of the group, i.e., mortgage, telephone customer) that was settled.. I never even knew I had overpaid a few dollars and guess what? The law firm in the first case got over $9 million, paid out to them first, and the poor clients like me got a whopping $28 for our share (of course a couple hundred thousand of us).. The phone deal netted the law firm a cool $6 million for their trouble, and I got a $15 phone card...
Of course, the lawyers in here will start to talk about litigation costs, fee's, court costs etc... But even the prez hopeful Edwards was just a simple lawyer until he made Millions on one suit...

Litigation lawyers in general sing a good song, but are out for the benefit to themselves, not the client and especially not the country...
I can be overweight, smoke, drink, take drugs, eat crap all the time, and need surgery and one mistake and who pays? The jury is never instructed to take into account when awarding the client millions, just how much responsibility the client themselves had for their condition in the first place...

[stickitfishy]

The real problem is that their ARE answers and cures for almost all diseases and that our government, fda etc. does everything in their power to keep the answers from us. If they told us the truth there would not be a health care problem. When you go to the doctor, you expect you can trust what they are doing or recommending for you. Did you know that they are trained by the drug companies to manage symptoms, not cure anything. Where is the doctor's incentive to cure you, he'll lose money. I suggest that if you are having health problems and they are not getting better, clear your mind of everything you have ever been told about health, medicine etc. and look for your own answers. They are on the net, many are extremely simple and believe me, many work amazingly well. Of course none of you will, but none of you have ever cured anything, I have and no I'm not a doctor. They don't cure shit!

[bgbill]

The real problem is that their ARE answers and cures for almost all diseases and that our government, fda etc. does everything in their power to keep the answers from us. If they told us the truth there would not be a health care problem.

:crazy:

[Don B]

Alright, I'll wade in so some of you can throw rocks :D . I am a small business man who pays 100% of my employees health plans ( that's family plans). My company spends between 500 and 600 a month for each employee. Socialized health care would be a national disaster.

Take a long look at any government provided service and see if it is not a complete cluster f--k. The bureaucracy would be a over flowing trough for corruption and waste. And if you are dumb enough to thank different take a look at FEMA and disaster recovery.

For those of you who hold Canada up as an example, don't, I go there several times a year. If a Canadian gets sick and can afford it he comes to the U.S. for help. If he can't afford it he sits and waits and hopes.

[bluedog]

The real problem is that their ARE answers and cures for almost all diseases and that our government, fda etc. does everything in their power to keep the answers from us. If they told us the truth there would not be a health care problem. When you go to the doctor, you expect you can trust what they are doing or recommending for you. Did you know that they are trained by the drug companies to manage symptoms, not cure anything. Where is the doctor's incentive to cure you, he'll lose money. I suggest that if you are having health problems and they are not getting better, clear your mind of everything you have ever been told about health, medicine etc. and look for your own answers. They are on the net, many are extremely simple and believe me, many work amazingly well. Of course none of you will, but none of you have ever cured anything, I have and no I'm not a doctor. They don't cure shit!
I've never been this candid, You are a complete dumbass if you really think this, later on you can go play with the rattlesnakes and speak in tongues! You now have absolutely NO credibility. Good luck in your life, I'm glad you have insurance, most people who win the Darwin Award wouldn't benefit from it anyway.

[Wayward Son]

Your efforts will be wasted as an electrician apprentice, you need to set up shop & heal people.

[Mikerotch]

Stickit, One last question. Not going into the validity of your statement, because technically there is a grain of truth with regard to symptom treatment vs cure, I just want to know, if you really believe the following statement :

The real problem is that their ARE answers and cures for almost all diseases and that our government, fda etc. does everything in their power to keep the answers from us.

If so, are you saying that this is the entity you want to intrust your healthcare to?
I think not. I think, in all honesty you just want someone else to foot the bill for your concept of "health justice". It is nothing but welfare and as someone so eloquently put it, "Welfare is loving a stranger so much that you are willing to take from another stranger." There absolutely is no such thing as a free lunch.

Mikerotch, proving daily that the free market is the best choice

[Christof]

And just a touch of proof that Canadian Health care is a great example of bureaucratic debacle, take this into account.... We treat Canadian snowbirds all the time.. Rather than pay for a day in the hospital to rule out an MI, they have us put the patient on a plane which is flown down from canada to take them home for treatment... Of course they also pay the ER bill.... This has GOT to cost a lot more than simply paying for them to be treated here, but it is their law... No common sense to that at all, especially since they could surely get a deal set up for reimbursement similar to medicare or insurance agencies do....
Their system is far from perfect and costs are huge...

[biggsy]

I think everyone has had a chance to make their points. Thread closed.

Here is another thread you guys may want to check out. It's important! http://spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=40636