One Hand Washes the Other....and taxpayers (present and future) are footing the bill

[apexpredator]

Auditors: Billions wasted in Iraq

By HOPE YEN, Associated Press Writer 13 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - The U.S. government is at risk of squandering significantly more money in an
Iraq war and reconstruction effort that has already wasted or otherwise overcharged taxpayers billions of dollars, federal investigators said Thursday.


The three top auditors overseeing contract work in Iraq told a House committee that $10 billion in spending was wasteful or poorly tracked. They pointed to numerous instances in which Defense and State department officials condoned or otherwise allowed poor accounting, repeated work delays, bloated expenses and payments for work shoddily or never done by U.S. contractors.

That problem could worsen, the
Government Accountability Office said, given limited improvement so far by the
Department of Defense even as the Bush administration prepares to boost the U.S. presence in Iraq.

David M. Walker, comptroller general of the GAO, Congress' auditing arm, said his agency has been pointing out problems for years, only to be largely ignored or given lip service with little result.

"There is no accountability," Walker said. "Organizations charged with overseeing contracts are not held accountable. Contractors are not held accountable. The individuals responsible are not held accountable."

"People should be rewarded when they do a good job. But when things don't go right, there have to be consequences," he said.

A spokeswoman for the Army, which handles most of the Iraq contracting, did not have immediate comment.

Senate Democrats, calling recently cited cases of waste "outrageous rip-offs of the American taxpayer," quickly moved to introduce legislation Thursday to stiffen punishment for war profiteers and cut down on cronyism in contracting.

The bill, sponsored by Sen. Byron Dorgan (news, bio, voting record), D-N.D., and 22 other senators, would impose penalties of up to 20 years in prison and fines of up to $1 million for war profiteering and restore a rule that prohibits awarding federal contracts to companies exhibiting a pattern of breaking the law in performance of government contracts.

That rule, put in place by
President Clinton, was dropped by the Bush administration upon taking office, Dorgan said.

The auditors' joint appearance before the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee comes as Congress is preparing for a showdown with
President Bush next month over his budget request of nearly $100 billion to pay for more U.S. troops in Iraq.

Also testifying Thursday were Stuart Bowen, the special inspector general for Iraq reconstruction, and William Reed, director of the Defense Contract Audit Agency.

According to their testimony, the investigators:

_Found overpricing and waste in Iraq contracts amounting to $4.9 billion since the Defense Contract Audit Agency began its work in 2003, although some of that money has since been recovered. Another $5.1 billion in expenses were charged without proper documentation.

_Urged the
Pentagon to reconsider its growing reliance on outside contractors to run the nation's wars and reconstruction efforts. Layers of subcontractors, poor documentation and lack of strong contract management are rampant and promote waste even after the GAO first warned of problems 15 years ago.

_Pointed to growing Iraqi sectarian violence as a significant factor behind wasted U.S. dollars. Iraqi officials must begin to take primary responsibility for reconstruction efforts, an uncertain goal given widespread corruption in Iraq and the local government's inability to fund projects.

Rep. Henry Waxman (news, bio, voting record), D-Calif., who chairs the panel, has pledged scores of investigations of fraud, waste and abuse — with subpoenas if necessary — on the Bush administration's watch. He decried the overpricing identified by the DCAA, a figure that has tripled since last fall.

Of the $10 billion in overpriced contracts or undocumented costs, more than $2.7 billion were charged by Halliburton Co., the oil-field services firm once headed by Vice President
Dick Cheney.

"According to the Pentagon auditors, more than one in six dollars they have audited in Iraq is suspect," Waxman said.

Rep. Tom Davis, R-Va., the top Republican on the panel, pointed to ongoing, "systemic" problems in Iraq contracting.

"This much is clear: Poor security, an arcane, ill-suited management structure, and frequent management changes have produced a succession of troubled acquisitions," he said.

[SEATUX]

IN PERSPECTIVE;
60 Minutes aired a show on how 9 Billion dollars was "lost" , recently an investigation was reporting that more than $12 Billion is unaccounted for, they said that amounted to 484 pallets of bailed new $100 bills @ 1500 lbs each or 360 tons of new $100 bills. The hell with who found a lost AB Biller, I want to find just one of those 484 lost pallets!

[stickitfishy]

I'll take a pallet please. Hell, I'll share half with my fellow spearboarders. :D

[SEATUX]

Here is an idea, "penalty of death" to all those involved in the "loss" of this $12 billion, Look what China just did; (and over ONLY $385 million)

China Sentences Man to Death in Ant Case
Thu Feb 15, 7:18 AM

BEIJING - A Chinese business executive was sentenced to death for swindling $385 million from investors in a bogus ant-breeding scheme, a court official said Thursday.
The Intermediate People's Court in Yingkou on Tuesday sentenced Wang to death, said an official in the court's case office who gave only his surname, Yin.
The death penalty is used broadly in China. Though usually reserved for violent crimes, it is also applied for nonviolent offenses that involve large sums of money or are deemed to have a pernicious social impact.

[Bill McIntyre]

Thanks SEATUX. I may have to reevaluate my opposition to the death penalty. People who take advantage of war to cheat us may rate an exception.

[Mikerotch]

Vote Libertarian and put an end to the madness. Still a cute baby, Bill, even if you are the grandfather.

Mikerotch, Coalition to Prevent Madness

[bikewrench]

When Bush first started this war I naively thought it was about oil. But after subsequently reading Confessions of an Ecconomic Hitman I realized that there was just as much money to be had in the global construction business. I now think that the contracts to fund the war and the ongoing and future contracts to 'rebuild' Iraq are the primary reason for this war. That money, hundreds of billions, goes right into the coffers of a few big businesses that have intimate ties to the Bush family. The joke is on us.

[SEATUX]

When Bush first started this war I naively thought it was about oil. But after subsequently reading Confessions of an Ecconomic Hitman I realized that there was just as much money to be had in the global construction business. I now think that the contracts to fund the war and the ongoing and future contracts to 'rebuild' Iraq are the primary reason for this war. That money, hundreds of billions, goes right into the coffers of a few big businesses that have intimate ties to the Bush family. The joke is on us.

Now we’re getting there! And how is business done in the USA? When the contracts get big enough its no longer free sky boxes at athletic events or hunting lodges, its KICKBACKS, PERIOD! And how convenient all these Billions of dollars were shipped out of the country in cash. No problem getting cash out of the US to Swiss bank accounts now, no paper trail, no worries. :sleep:

[mcgyvry]

Dear god man this is unheard of how could this happen. This never happened before Bush got in office. What we need is a president with the military and economic savvy of Jimmy Carter that has the moral and ethical standards of Bill Clinton to take over.

Hillary, Hillary, Hillary
:eek:

[Bill McIntyre]

Dear god man this is unheard of how could this happen. This never happened before Bush got in office. What we need is a president with the military and economic savvy of Jimmy Carter that has the moral and ethical standards of Bill Clinton to take over.


Why is it that every time we see evidence of how bad things are under Bush, someone has to change the subject and mention someone else?

Hell, why didn't you go clear back to Truman?

Oops, wouldn't want to do that. After all, during WWII when he was still in the Senate he headed a commission to guard against waste and corruption, with an estimated saving of $15 billion.

And its not just that this administration permits graft- it tries to protect it. The US Attorney in San Diego, Carol Lam, caught Congressman Randy Cunningham taking bribes from defense contractors and got him put away for 8 years. When she moved against the contractors who bribed him, the Justice Department announced that she was being replaced. Luckily, she got an indictment a couple of days ago against two guys as she was on the way out, but somehow I doubt her successor is going to push the case hard.

Its not unusual for US Attorneys to be asked to resign at the start of a new administration. But using an obscure Patriot Act provision, the US Dept. of Justice is forcing U.S. Attorneys around the country who are investigating corruption to resign their positions, not based on any allegation of misconduct. There have been 7 asked to resign in the last year, and they are being replaced with interim appointees so that they won't have to be confirmed by the Senate.

This bunch isn't just failing to notice corruption- its punishing anyone who uncovers it.

[mcgyvry]

:lol: Nobody ever notices the dog sh*t in there own yard. :lol:

[jackpine savage]

$$$$$$ talks

[Bill McIntyre]

:lol: Nobody ever notices the dog sh*t in there own yard. :lol:

I guess you don't. You don't have anything to say about all the graft and corruption in this administration, and you don't have anything to say about firing US Attorneys who are going after crooks stealing our money.

All you want to do it bring up Carter and Clinton. God, how I wish Bush's biggest ethical problem was lying about getting a blowjob. I'd even give him one if it would reverse all the tragedy he has heaped on us.

I'd also love to trade a couple of helos having a mid-air at night in the desert for the great foreign policy and military successes of this administration.

[jeffcroci]

"God, how I wish Bush's biggest ethical problem was lying about getting a blowjob."

me too, and Iam just amazed that people got soooooo enraged about that (a truley hollow jesture) and let every f**king lie that the bush admin spews slide, because he's a "good christian man"

ugh!! I'm revolted once again

[Christof]

Thanks SEATUX. I may have to reevaluate my opposition to the death penalty. People who take advantage of war to cheat us may rate an exception.
So how do you feel then about the "Big Dig" in good ole' Mass Bill??
I wonder how much palm greasing Kennedy got in that one.....

[Christof]

Dear god man this is unheard of how could this happen. This never happened before Bush got in office. What we need is a president with the military and economic savvy of Jimmy Carter that has the moral and ethical standards of Bill Clinton to take over.

Hillary, Hillary, Hillary
:eek:
lol: ... Hillary... Yeah, she is all for the poor working class guy... Just ask all the NY Rabbi's that were convinced to support her race with the help of hubbies pardons for their convicted fellows..

[Bill McIntyre]

So how do you feel then about the "Big Dig" in good ole' Mass Bill??
I wonder how much palm greasing Kennedy got in that one.....

I haven't followed it that closely, but I was not aware that there was a war in Massachusetts.

However, if Kennedy took any bribes, I sure hope someone comes up with evidence and prosecutes him. I bet a US Attorney could even get an indictment against without being asked to resign, unlike those who dug up dirt on Republicans.

[jackpine savage]

Kennedy is rich enough with out resorting to bribes. The company that the state is suing for overcharges and mismanagement on the Big Dig is Bechtel. Fancy that, they used the Big Dig as an exercise for stealing tax payers money to get them ready for the big caper, ripping us off in Iraq.

[Bill McIntyre]

Bechtel! Who woulda thunk it.

[Christof]

My point is that no one seems to rant about the BS pork barrel wasting that goes on in this country... Had Bush had a hand in the big dig, or better yet, Cheneys old company Haliburton, you would be screaming about that...
All waste has got to piss people off, not just the waste by the people they hate politically...

[bikewrench]

My point is that no one seems to rant about the BS pork barrel wasting that goes on in this country... Had Bush had a hand in the big dig, or better yet, Cheneys old company Haliburton, you would be screaming about that...
All waste has got to piss people off, not just the waste by the people they hate politically...
As a matter of fact people up here have ranted about the costs and cost overruns on the 'Big Dig'. But a significant difference is that no one is sending tens of thousands of sons and daughters into a meat grinder to support the Big Dig. There might be the usual graft and corruption associated with typical pork barrel projects but there aren't any war criminals such as Bush and Cheney.

[Marcus]

God, how I wish Bush's biggest ethical problem was lying about getting a blowjob. I'd even give him one if it would reverse all the tragedy he has heaped on us.


That's some funny stuff there Bill. I'm thinking of making about making that my new signature. :D

Well now...I stopped thinking about it. :D

[Bill McIntyre]

Marcus,

I can't begin to tell you how honored I am that you would use a quote from me for your sig line.

I proudly told my wife about this, and she said that she could think of several, perhaps like this one from Lincoln

A house divided against itself cannot stand

that she might have preferred to be associated with my name, but I told her that you were doing your best with the material that you had to work with.

[Christof]

As a matter of fact people up here have ranted about the costs and cost overruns on the 'Big Dig'. But a significant difference is that no one is sending tens of thousands of sons and daughters into a meat grinder to support the Big Dig. There might be the usual graft and corruption associated with typical pork barrel projects but there aren't any war criminals such as Bush and Cheney.
Uhhhhh, I think this thread was about money being wasted and companies screwing taxpayers.... Seems that when no one wants to address the corporate/politician handjobs going on everywhere by BOTH parties, they go right to the war issue.....

[SEATUX]

Christof, you’re so full of shit! All Political graft is wrong, and all graft should be prosecuted, whether Republican or Democrat. No one is saying anything different from that. But on the one hand your worried about nickel dime shit while Bush is racking up a debt your grandchildren will still be paying off, and he’s getting our guys killed.
(Actually I think your just trying to distract attention from the big picture)

[mcgyvry]

All you want to do it bring up Carter and Clinton. God, how I wish Bush's biggest ethical problem was lying about getting a blowjob. I'd even give him one if it would reverse all the tragedy he has heaped on us.

Wow now there’s a stretch, isn’t that like the liberal version of a secret hand shake. Now if you had said you would solute the flag or say the pledge of allegiance then we’d know you were serious.

I'd also love to trade a couple of helos having a mid-air at night in the desert for the great foreign policy and military successes of this administration.

Unless you were the one navy seals that died out there.

[Christof]

Christof, you’re so full of shit! All Political graft is wrong, and all graft should be prosecuted, whether Republican or Democrat. No one is saying anything different from that. But on the one hand your worried about nickel dime shit while Bush is racking up a debt your grandchildren will still be paying off, and he’s getting our guys killed.
(Actually I think your just trying to distract attention from the big picture)
Actually Tux, I am actually tired of people trying to distract attention from the thread purpose by always pointing to the war.... There are tons of threads about the BS of the Iraq war. I agree that to start the war and drop the billions we have was bullshit, but that is not to say that I minimize the trillions pissed away on political pork like has been the case for the last 30 yrs... I cant remember one bitch about the multi-millions if not billions spent by the last admin on other countries problems...

Since people want to always discuss the Iraq situation, I will add this.
How the hell can people of our generation (not the latest generation that cant even pronounce Cambodia) have forgotten the last time we involved ourselves in a war, lost our will to win, then split, only to watch as opposing forces fractioned, and other countries swept in only to murder millions...
Just for those younguns, "The Killing fields" was not just a made up hollywood movie...
Just as we eventually did in Bosnia, if Iraq degrades into an ethnic-cleansing calamity (as it will if we leave), we will only end up going back into an even bigger mess than we have now..
The single biggest mistakes of this war (besides starting it in the first place) were that we didnt simply flatten Fallujah, and blow up every frickin mosque that Al Sadr's men were hiding in.... That is what allowed the sectarian violence to begin in the first place. How the hell did Saddam keep them in line? By wiping them out when they first started their shit... He achieved what we cant, because he had the stomach to do what needed to be done in the first place....

[Mikerotch]

Vote Libertarian. Then we can quit the battle of who pisses away more. And maybe we can each buy a Wong.

Mikerotch, Constitution and Liberty Advocate

[bikewrench]

Uhhhhh, I think this thread was about money being wasted and companies screwing taxpayers.... Seems that when no one wants to address the corporate/politician handjobs going on everywhere by BOTH parties, they go right to the war issue.....
Hey jackass go read the very first post in this thread. Its about the Iraq war.

[Christof]

In subcontext bud...... The main gist is the waste and mismanagement of funds by the private contractors used by the Govt....
:talker: :bs: :moon: :p

[Christof]

And BTW, you didnt even try to touch my other points, i.e., "The Killing Fields"...
After all, this IS a thread about Iraq, right?

[SEATUX]

Christof, you’re so full of shit!
(Actually I think your just trying to distract attention from the big picture)
LIKE I SAID!

(Now, Try going to the top of the thread and actually reading it,notice the BOLD PRINT parts.)

[Bill McIntyre]

Wow now there’s a stretch, isn’t that like the liberal version of a secret hand shake. Now if you had said you would solute the flag or say the pledge of allegiance then we’d know you were serious.



Unless you were the one navy seals that died out there.

Its simply incredible that you want to blame Carter for two helos running into each other in the dark in the desert. I know he is blamed for being a micro manager and for good cause, but he wasn't flying either one of those helos.

I have news for you. During my career as a Marine pilot, a lot of people died in mid airs in peacetime and right here in CONUS. I don't recall ever seeing the accident report name the President as responsible.

But as long as you are stretching, please tell me how Carter is responsible for all the deaths in Iraq. I'm sure he must have been responsible if only I had the imagination to figure out how.

[Bill McIntyre]

My point is that no one seems to rant about the BS pork barrel wasting that goes on in this country... Had Bush had a hand in the big dig, or better yet, Cheneys old company Haliburton, you would be screaming about that...
All waste has got to piss people off, not just the waste by the people they hate politically...

You are absolutely right. All waste should piss us off. Its just that we have only so much piss-off to go around, so we have to set priorities.

As it happens, the waste and graft by companies like Bechtel and Halliburton, which happen to be run by cronies of the present administration and got no-bid contracts to rip us off, have ripped off so many billions of our money that its hard to find much time to bitch about minor players doing minor graft.

As soon as the Justice Department quits firing US Attorneys that actually prosecute Republicans, then we'll be able to express outrage at guys who cheated on domestic construction contracts (if we haven't run out of outrage before then).

[jackpine savage]

This war is all about maximizing profits by the cronies of the Republican administration. If you were to look at the dollar amount and what was actually done for that money you would be ashamed of this country. There are a lot of people who claim to be patriots who are lining up at the door to this administration with their hands out waiting to collect while our good men and women fight and die for a foolish war. For all you people out there who bitch and moan about the poor moinorities in this country who you claim are soaking the system, where is the outrage when its rich, white, conservatives? Hell at least the poor are over there fighting.

[mcgyvry]

Hey Bill you might want to read the acounts of the incident in Iran from the SEAL team leader (Marchenko) before you come up with a half ass thought. I know you won't because you might have to admit, that pile of sh*t is in your yard.

Christof you and mikerotch may be the only two that have the sense to understand the futility of this forum. I had many of the same arguements in the 80's with people that thought it was ok to bomb an abortion clinic? The same circle logic that always degrade's into a list of what your guy did is worse than what my guy did so we can do twice as much to get even :rolleyes:

There was a time when our politicians stayed above the all of this and would do what was right for our country. Now they are the one's who start this sh*t. So I don't see any end in sight until everyone cleans up their own yard.

But on a lighter note it is still fun pointing out the absurdity of the logic being used and it's easy. The stupid is strong here.
:thumps:

[Bill McIntyre]

Hey Bill you might want to read the acounts of the incident in Iran from the SEAL team leader (Marchenko) before you come up with a half ass thought. I know you won't because you might have to admit, that pile of sh*t is in your yard.

*

Why don't you give us a quick summary? It seems strange that you keep saying that Carter caused two aircraft to collide without bothering to tell us how. If you know it, say it.

In any event, even if it turns out that Carter was the on-scene commander and was at the controls of an aircraft, it won't put a pile of shit in my yard. I wasn't there. Did Bush's starting a war so that his buddies can steal money put a pile of shit in your yard? I sure hope not, but the way that you are trying to divert attention makes me wonder if you or some relative is benefitting.

This tread started by pointing out graft and stealing going on in the Iraq war. Why are you so defensive about that? How does Carter's responsibility for what happened in that hostage rescue operation have the slightest relationship to graft in Iraq? If you are somehow taking responsibility for Bush's mess and think that it dumped shit in your yard, I would think that you would at least try to point out some other graft in order to divert attention from it. That wouldn't make the present graft any less serious, but at least it would be a more effective diversion.

[bikewrench]

But on a lighter note it is still fun pointing out the absurdity of the logic being used and it's easy. The stupid is strong here.
:thumps:
Man you are sure right about that.

[Christof]

Ok, I'll try Bill then, since he actually was in Vietnam... How do we keep what happened in Vietnam after buggin out from happening in Iraq if we do the same thing?
I can only imagine the kinds of horrors that will go on if the US pulls that stunt again...
We should have learned from Vietnam and not gone into Iraq, but we also have the chance now not to make two big mistakes that were made in Vietnam.. One to go, the next to bug out and leave millions to be tortured and killed... But then we would of course have to go back to save all those being cleansed, i.e., Bosnia....

What about that Bill?

[SEATUX]

Originally Posted by SEATUX
Christof, you’re so full of shit!
(Actually I think your just trying to distract attention from the big picture)


LIKE I SAID!

(Now, Try going to the top of the thread and actually reading it,notice the BOLD PRINT parts.)

THE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT GRAFT AND WASTE, KICK BACKS, 12 BILLION DOLLARS LOST , GO BACK AND READ CHRISTOF.

[josedesucre]

* Bush's starting a war so that his buddies can steal money
Do you really believe that?

[jackpine savage]

Its sad that this is what has become of our government. SOB's wrapping themselves in the flag all the while they skim billions of dollars for themselves, and if you cal their actions into question they call you unaptriotic. It seems to me there is a segment in this country that should be lined up against a wall.

[Bill McIntyre]

Ok, I'll try Bill then, since he actually was in Vietnam... How do we keep what happened in Vietnam after buggin out from happening in Iraq if we do the same thing?
I can only imagine the kinds of horrors that will go on if the US pulls that stunt again...
We should have learned from Vietnam and not gone into Iraq, but we also have the chance now not to make two big mistakes that were made in Vietnam.. One to go, the next to bug out and leave millions to be tortured and killed...

Yes, we should not have gone to Iraq. I don't know for sure what will happen when we leave, but if I had to bet, I'd bet it won't be pretty. But whatever it is is going to happen whenever we leave, whether its sooner or later. If we leave sooner, fewer of us will be killed.

We screwed it up bad and owe the Iraqi people a huge debt for what we have done to them, but I don't know how we can fix it now. I don't think its possible, politically or financially, to stay there forever. When we leave, bad things may happen, but we can't stay just to put off the inevitable.

While I wouldn't bet money on it, there is always the remote possibility that with us out of there, the Iraqi factions will decide that they have to sink or swim together and figure out a way to get along before the carnage gets bad. They don't like being occupied by a foreign invader, and most of them don't like the foreign Al Queda butting into their business either. With us gone, they could kick out Al Queda and focus on trying to be Iraq.

BTW, I think Yugoslavia provided the best model for what we would be getting into. Just like Saddam held a lid on all the factional differences in Iraq, Tito held a lid on all the factional differences in Yugoslavia. I grew up not even knowing that Yugoslavia was an artificiality put together by the great powers after WWI. But the Croats, Serbs, and Bosnians remembered and kept score, and the country came apart without a strong dictator holding it together. You would think that all those smart guys could have looked at that recent example and noticed that the same thing was likely in Iraq.

It took a while, but notice that we are trading partners with Vietnam now. I have several pieces of clothing made there.

[Bill McIntyre]

Do you really believe that?

I'm not sure. It may be giving him too much credit in some ways and too little in others.

It probably wasn't right up front in his little brain that political supporters would be able to profit so much from the war. But he was under the influence of a lot of people who sure as hell knew, former Halliburton CEO Cheney being one of them.

Some of his advisors thought that we would end up controlling Iraqi oil, and some thought we really would spread democracy through the Middle East at the point of a gun. Whatever their motivation, I imagine they all thought it would be a relative cakewalk, and provide great opportunities for businesses to make a lot of money on reconstruction contracts. None of them realized that so many Americans and Iraqis would have to die to make those opportunities, but a relatively smaller number would have been acceptable. They were not totally evil, just half evil.

[mcgyvry]

*

[QUOTE]Why don't you give us a quick summary? It seems strange that you keep saying that Carter caused two aircraft to collide without bothering to tell us how. If you know it, say it.


Its official you’re a liberal you want someone else to do your work for you.


In any event, even if it turns out that Carter was the on-scene commander and was at the controls of an aircraft, it won't put a pile of shit in my yard. I wasn't there. Did Bush's starting a war so that his buddies can steal money put a pile of shit in your yard? I sure hope not, but the way that you are trying to divert attention makes me wonder if you or some relative is benefitting.

I own Haliburton and the black helicopters are coming for you as we speak.

How does Carter's responsibility for what happened in that hostage rescue operation have the slightest relationship to graft in Iraq?

Good question why don’t you answer it you were the one who brought it up. You seem change the subject when ever one of your incomplete thought’s run up on the brick wall of reality. Focus man Focus. So today’s assignment is for you to re-read your posts with an emphasis on comprehension of the written words within the context of the dialog.

I didn’t think my sarcasm was that hard to follow (the force is strong in this one) I’m typing as slow as I can. Does anyone know how to get a little bouncy ball over my words maybe that’ll help.

[Bill McIntyre]

Its official you’re a liberal you want someone else to do your work for you.

No, I want a big mouth conservative to back up his allegations with fact for a change. If you want to blame Carter for a mid-air, its not up to me to try to find the facts to back it up. Its your thesis, so its up to you to support it. Just saying it over and over again may work on talk radio, but not in the civilized world.

I own Haliburton and the black helicopters are coming for you as we speak.

I'm not surprised

Good question why don’t you answer it you were the one who brought it up.

Beg your pardon? Please see post #9 in this tread where you brought Carter into it. Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought there was any way to bring Carter into a thread about corruption and graft under Bush. Focus, man, focus.

You remind me of one of the right-wing talk radio types, bringing unrelated shit into the conversation every time something adverse about Bush comes up, and relying on the principle that if something is said often enough, it must be true, no matter what the facts.

[jackpine savage]

:stupid: :stupid:

[mcgyvry]

:thumps: Thank you for making my point again Bill.(post #9 ) COMPREHENTION within the the CONTEXT of the DIALOG . A liberal mind is a wonderful thing to waste. If you want I can have the 7th grader next door log on help you out.

[Bill McIntyre]

:thumps: Thank you for making my point again Bill.(post #9 ) COMPREHENTION within the the CONTEXT of the DIALOG . A liberal mind is a wonderful thing to waste. If you want I can have the 7th grader next door log on help you out.

I don't know what you are smoking, and I'm assuming you meant "comprehension" but if you are trying to confuse me with misdirection, its working.

As near as I can tell, post number 9 is where YOU brought up Carter to change the subject. Is that true or not?

I think you must be feeling pretty threatened to be resorting to nasty sarcasm about 7th graders. I know that a lot of Bush apologists do that sort of thing, but there are serious, honorable conservatives out there who have something serious to say and can say it in a way that doesn't turn everyone off. You should give it a try (if you really have anything to say).

[jackpine savage]

He has no rebuttal to the central argument here, that cronies of the administration are simply stealing from our government. If he thought this argument was incorrect he would simply show us were we are wrong, instead he resorts to childish reponses, much like the current administration does when challenged.

[bikewrench]

Its official you’re a liberal you want someone else to do your work for you.




I own Haliburton and the black helicopters are coming for you as we speak.



Good question why don’t you answer it you were the one who brought it up. You seem change the subject when ever one of your incomplete thought’s run up on the brick wall of reality. Focus man Focus. So today’s assignment is for you to re-read your posts with an emphasis on comprehension of the written words within the context of the dialog.

I didn’t think my sarcasm was that hard to follow (the force is strong in this one) I’m typing as slow as I can. Does anyone know how to get a little bouncy ball over my words maybe that’ll help.
None of your posts in this thread make any sense. You are a jackass who sounds like he smokes too much for lunch.

[Bill McIntyre]

Since he wants so much to turn this into a thread about Carter, here is an article showing how much more successful Carter's wars are as compared to Bush's wars.

http://select.nytimes.com/2007/02/20/opinion/20kristof.html?hp

Yet in remote places like this, former President Carter, at 82, is leading a private war on disease that should inspire and shame President Bush and other world leaders into joining. It’s not just that Mr. Carter’s wars have been more successful than Mr. Bush’s; Mr. Carter is also rehabilitating the image of the U.S. abroad and transforming the lives of the world’s most wretched peoples.

[Bill McIntyre]

And while the fat cats get rich on the war, these are the ones paying the price.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0702200236feb20,1,5202560.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

[Mikerotch]

Two opposite sides of the same corrupt, incompetent coin. Vote for a different coin. Vote for a Libertarian coin, and stop our interventionist policies which have led to most of the crap we are dealing with now. "No entangling alliances" and a federal government that is limited to those powers enumerated by the Constitution. A Carter-Bush debate is much like a Horse crap - Bull crap contest. Whoever wins is still pretty crappy.

Mikerotch, Anticrap Advocate

( Ron Paul For President, 2008 )

[mcgyvry]

Dear god man this is unheard of how could this happen. This never happened before Bush got in office. What we need is a president with the military and economic savvy of Jimmy Carter that has the moral and ethical standards of Bill Clinton to take over.

Hillary, Hillary, Hillary
:eek:
Here I'll post it again. This is more fun than watching a room full of retards playing with a box of mouse traps. :D

[Bill McIntyre]

Thanks for finally admitting that you were the one who brought up Carter. I know you'll sleep better now.

[mcgyvry]

I never denied it that’s why I posted it again so why don’t you tell me what inspired you to bring up Iran? :confused: Oh and I said Bill and Hillary too what do you think that means. You’re a liberal maybe you can tell what you think the meaning of the word “is” is in the post.

Thanks for your concern for may sleep patterns but don’t worry I sleep just fine. :D ;)

[Christof]

cronies of the administration are simply stealing from our government.
Like that is new JPS?
How many bazillions were made off the Vietnam war, or the prolonging of it when Kennedy was wanting to back out? The war machine has always had it's hand in politics, and unfortunately, most of our modern technology in ALL fields wouldnt be found without the companies that try to find new ways to win wars...
And BTW, the Vietnam war was begun by Democrats (one started, the other continued) and ended by a Republican.... War profiteering occurs on both sides.. In fact, I would really like to see a list of ALL politicians that have stock in weapon producing companies... I bet the list is long...

[SEATUX]

Let’s just say all the wars were started by Democrats, and the only ones who made money off all those wars were Democrats.
So that makes it OK now for the Republican administration to embezzle hundreds of billions of dollars?
The Vietnam War (since you brought it up) was fought from 1959 thru 1975 (17 years) adjusted for inflation it cost (in today’s money ) $549 billion , VS the Afghanistan and Iraq war that have spanned less than 7 years, is now over $811 billion.
When in the history of the United States have we shipped money into a war zone to fund the war in cash to the extent it has been done in this war? This administration is ADMITTING to 12 billion dollars being lost, (That’s just what they admit to) that’s 484 pallets of bundled new $100 bills, 360 tons of $100 dollar bills, lost.
And that’s ok with you? Because a Republican did it? Would you be pissed if it was done by a Democrat?
It doesn’t matter what party did it, they should be hung.

[Christof]

It doesn’t matter what party did it, they should be hung.
And I couldnt say it any better.... That has been the drum I have been beating for years... What amazes me even more than the audacity of politicians and their self-serving politics, is the sheer numbers of idiots that still subscribe to the partisan-as-usual political game that is all to prevelant today and is only getting worse... Whilst common working-class folk argue over whether Bill O'Reilly or Pelosi are the devil, the mainstream political arena has to be sitting back toasting their success in turning us all into lebotomised walking atm machines...

[SEATUX]

QUOTE/Christof
"BGBill has BIG BALLS!!" /QUOTE

CHRISTOF, I know you work in ER, is there a story you wish to share with us about the above statement?
;)

[Christof]

LOL!!

No... I just admire his "I dont give a shit who I piss off, screw ya" attitude....
I wondered though why he never told me to change it or something...

I may have to change it to "Bill M is a commy bastard" pretty soon though...
:D

[Mikerotch]

I would vote Libertarian. Stop the entangling alliances and outrageous unconstitutional spending. Just an idea, for those who still have the capacity to think. (Unlebotimized)

Mikerotch, Anti-entangling Advocate.