Colorado's anti-immigrant experience

[Bill McIntyre]

There have been a lot of discussions in other threads about the effect of illegal immigration and whether they take jobs from Americans or do jobs that Americans won't do. Rather than try to find one of them, I'm taking the lazy way out and starting a new one to show how its working in Colorado.
********************************************
Colorado's immigration policy backfires
The state's punitive measures have left its agricultural and construction sectors short of workers.

March 2, 2007

IN THE 2004 SATIRICAL film "A Day Without a Mexican," California wakes up to discover that its Latinos have mysteriously vanished, and a society deeply reliant on migrant labor starts to crumble. Life is imitating art in Colorado. After passing what might be the nation's toughest anti-immigrant laws, the state is having its beleaguered day with fewer immigrants.

With no one left to pick them, crops are rotting in the fields, and the construction industry and other businesses that rely on low-skilled labor are experiencing a worker shortage. The situation is so bad for the state's growers that officials plan to send prison inmates out to harvest crops. How very 19th century.

Immigrants are fleeing Colorado because of harsh laws passed during a special session of the Legislature last summer that require state identification for government services and allow police to check suspects' immigration status. The ID laws have raised the ire even of many native-born people, who complain about hassles for those trying to get a driver's license.

If chasing away immigrants has caused problems in Colorado, imagine the economic chaos it would bring to California, where immigrants make up about a third of the workforce and the agriculture industry dwarfs Colorado's. The Rocky Mountain blues are also demonstrating that, contrary to nativist rhetoric, there really are jobs that Americans won't do. In Pueblo, Colo., desperate farmers are offering up to $9.60 an hour for pickers — well in excess of the federal minimum wage of $5.15 an hour and more than they have paid migrants in the past — but there are few takers.

Turning prisoners into farmers is no solution. People aren't sentenced to hard labor anymore, so only volunteers are available for prison work programs. And not too many inmates will do backbreaking field work for 60 cents a day — the going rate for prisoners under Colorado's pilot program.

Colorado is learning a painful lesson about the foolishness of a piecemeal, state-by-state response to illegal immigration and about the economic effect of a strictly punitive approach. The only solution with a chance of working is comprehensive federal legislation that would document immigrants already in this country as guest workers and provide them with a path to citizenship, as well as tightening border security. Election-year politics torpedoed President Bush's efforts to pass such reforms last year. To see the result of the opposite approach, look no further than Pueblo.

[ramblin'wreck]

Hate to get into this, but I'm curious. What is growing in Pueblo, Colorado that needs picking right now? Can't claim to be an agriculture guru, but seems a little cold for fruits and vegetables (high today of 38F).

[Bill McIntyre]

Good question. Here is an article from yesterday with more detail.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-inmates1mar01,1,1597348.story

It sounds like they didn't have enough labor last fall, and now farmers are hesitant to plant crops this spring unless they can be sure they will have labor next fall.

Excerpts:

Crops were left to spoil in the fields after the passage of legislation that required state identification to get government services and allowed police to check suspects' immigration status.

and

"This prison labor is not a cure for the immigration problem; it's just a Band-Aid," farmer Joe Pisciotta said.

He said he needed to be sure he would have enough workers for the harvest this fall before he planted watermelons, onions and pumpkins on his 700-acre farm in Avondale. But he's not thrilled with the idea of criminals working his fields.

"I've got young kids," he said. "It's something I've got to think about."

If the state of proposing the use of prison labor to pick, then I presume it must think the problem is serious.

[apexpredator]

Hate to get into this, but I'm curious. What is growing in Pueblo, Colorado that needs picking right now? Can't claim to be an agriculture guru, but seems a little cold for fruits and vegetables (high today of 38F).
Nothing growing in Colorado right now that needs picking but right now Colorado peaks in it's shipping of russet potatoes (About 70 truckloads (45,000lb per truckload) a day). Those things need sorting & grading as they are shipped out of storage. Immigrants would work on the packing line.

[mulefeathers]

While the illegal aliens may be doing jobs that others wont do for the money this could change with proper welfare reform.

While I understand the fact that people want to come to the US what is wrong with doing thing the proper way. Just come here legally. There are not that many people that get upset over immigrants. Most people are upset in the manor in which they come here using false papers and sending wages to other countries.

In MS we have a large number of people on the welfare roles/Food stamps that could do the jobs. The problem I have with it is that people abusing the system make more money not working than those that will get out and work.

Colorado welfare expenditures have increased at alarming rates over the last five years. Statistics from the Department of Health and Human Services show that the number of Colorado welfare recipients has risen by nearly thirty percent since 2001; increasing fourteen percent from 2001 to 2002, eleven percent from 2002 to 2003, seven percent from 2003 to 2004, and another half percent in 2005. Colorado has a unemployment rate of 4.2% over the state. If the people wont work for $9.60 hour what are the doing for food? Food Stamps? Government Assistance? If that is the case then the two issues go hand in hand.

We can defend the illegal aliens by says they do jobs no one else will do but until the government forces people to work by cutting benefits to those who are able to work but choose not to you really have not accomplished anything.

[ramblin'wreck]

makes sense.

[bug_power]

hmmm.....inmates working in fields....WOW sounds like a double win for the state....the state get's paid what a migrant worker would earn to pick crops. Inmates get some sort of punishment for what they did rather then watching TV 24/7 or on the internet scamming others. Sounds like Colorado could have a REALLY positive thing if they handle it correctly.

[Bill McIntyre]

While the illegal aliens may be doing jobs that others wont do for the money this could change with proper welfare reform.


We can defend the illegal aliens by says they do jobs no one else will do but until the government forces people to work by cutting benefits to those who are able to work but choose not to you really have not accomplished anything.

You make an interesting point, but I wonder about the reality of forcing welfare recipients into the fields. I have no idea about actual percentages, but I bet some are on welfare because they are physically unable to work. And a lot of people who could stand behind a cash register couldn't do stoop labor. How do we evaluate which ones can hack it? If we force someone with a weak heart into the fields and he drops dead, do his dependents have a case against the state?

And I bet a lot of the welfare recipients are single parents. If we force them into the fields, are we going to pay for decent day care so that the kids have a chance to grow into productive adults, or will we just make them trail behind their parents in the fields or stay home alone all day?

I bet it could be very complicated and very expensive to force welfare recipients into the fields.

[mulefeathers]

You make an interesting point, but I wonder about the reality of forcing welfare recipients into the fields. I have no idea about actual percentages, but I bet some are on welfare because they are physically unable to work. And a lot of people who could stand behind a cash register couldn't do stoop labor. How do we evaluate which ones can hack it? If we force someone with a weak heart into the fields and he drops dead, do his dependents have a case against the state?

And I bet a lot of the welfare recipients are single parents. If we force them into the fields, are we going to pay for decent day care so that the kids have a chance to grow into productive adults, or will we just make them trail behind their parents in the fields or stay home alone all day?

I bet it could be very complicated and very expensive to force welfare recipients into the fields.


Yes, but you will note that I are able to work but don't. There is a certain amount of government assistance abuse in all states. The best example of such abuse is when I moved to MS from Fl I came here with a good job and a great income. When I enrolled my child in school I was sent a medicare card for state health care. When I declined the school wanted to know why because the receive grants based on number children enrolled in that program. Now I still declined but I wonder how many did not and should have.

However there are ways to work around the issues if somebody wanted to try. Such as after the children are in school. My child get on the bus at 7:10 every morning and doesn't get home until 3:50 that afternoon. The work day for those that are able to work could start around 8:00 and end at 3:30 so they children are never at home by themselves. The government can create and spend money a bunch of social programs to help people. They offer tax credits to companies that hire former welfare recipients so why can't they take extra steps to help design a work day program to get people off the rolls and back into the work force.

I never advocated kicking the disabled off the system. Welfare was designed to be a temporary help to those in times of need never to be a permanent source of income

[jeffcroci]

"Yes, but you will note that I are able to work but don't."


?????????????????

[bgbill]

Bill,

The title of the article is wrong, they are not anti immigrant, they are anti ILLEGAL ALIEN, there is a difference.

[bgbill]

You make an interesting point, but I wonder about the reality of forcing welfare recipients into the fields. I have no idea about actual percentages, but I bet some are on welfare because they are physically unable to work. And a lot of people who could stand behind a cash register couldn't do stoop labor. How do we evaluate which ones can hack it? If we force someone with a weak heart into the fields and he drops dead, do his dependents have a case against the state?

And I bet a lot of the welfare recipients are single parents. If we force them into the fields, are we going to pay for decent day care so that the kids have a chance to grow into productive adults, or will we just make them trail behind their parents in the fields or stay home alone all day?

I bet it could be very complicated and very expensive to force welfare recipients into the fields.

Bill,

I have worked in section 8 housing before as well as projects, there are a lot of people more than able to work in the fields who are collecting welfare.

As far as what to do with their kids, that is their problem, the government doesn't worry about what I do with my 4 kids.

As far as the welfare recipients being single parents, that is correct and one reason why is because the government will pay them more money if there is not a father in the house.

If I have a heart attack and die because the government doesn't pay my bills, and therefore I have to work, can my kids sue the state?

[mulefeathers]

"Yes, but you will note that I are able to work but don't."


?????????????????

Ok "Yes, but you will note that I said those that are able to work but don't."

Is that better????

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill,

I have worked in section 8 housing before as well as projects, there are a lot of people more than able to work in the fields who are collecting welfare.

I'm sure there are. What I asked was how we would sort them out. When someone claims to be unable, will we give them a complete medical examination? Will we demand medical records? The costs of administration are going to diminish all those cost savings.

As far as what to do with their kids, that is their problem, the government doesn't worry about what I do with my 4 kids.

If you really feel that way, I'm at a loss to reply. Hopefully its not a majority opinion in this most Christian nation on earth. Making kids pay for the sins or shortcomings of their parents is barbaric.

As far as the welfare recipients being single parents, that is correct and one reason why is because the government will pay them more money if there is not a father in the house.

I've heard that's true. If so, its shortcoming of the welfare system and should be corrected so that the government is not pushing fathers out of the house.

If I have a heart attack and die because the government doesn't pay my bills, and therefore I have to work, can my kids sue the state?

If you think it would be nicer to live on welfare and have the government lavishly support you, why don't you quit working and try it. Then if they force you into the fields and you have a heart attack, your kids can be the test case.

[MichaelBaranows]

I really didn't want to get into this topic but it is hard for me to pass up.

I have no problem with legal immigrants. I know if many immigrants that did what they had to do to become an United State of American citizen. Cause if a person is willing to break the law to get into the greatest country in the world what is to say they are not willing to break other laws.

I have more pride in myself than to get on welfare. I would rather work 4 jobs to support myself that have to get help from the government. Maybe it is just my up bringing. My parent divorced when I was 6 and my mother had been a stay at home mom since she was 21 so she really didn't have any job skills. She worked 2 or 3 jobs at a time to support me and my brother. She drove school bus morning and evening and work from 11 at night to 7 in the morning and part time during the day at the post office to make sure we had the things we needed. That only lasted about 4 years until she got a full time job with the post office. But she did what she had to do. At that young age I would have liked to had my mother around more but at that time it was hard. So there are jobs out there and there isn't saying that you can't have more than one at a time.

As far as child care for the kids. A few of those mother that are on welfare and can't do hard labor, what is keeping them from watching the kids of others that can work.

I know if many handicap people that are working so what is keeping handicap people on welfare from doing other jobs. It doesn't take much effort to clean tables at a resturant or ring up customers at a "Stop and Rob". Here in Texas there is such a boom in jobs every gas stations is needing people and most are paying $7 an hour.

My feeling that before a can get their monthly check they need to prove that are trying to better themself.

I am sure I will caught hell for this post but it wouldn't hurt my feelings.

[Bill McIntyre]

Cause if a person is willing to break the law to get into the greatest country in the world what is to say they are not willing to break other laws.

Or you could look at it this way. If a person is willing to risk dying of thirst crossing the desert to get work to support himself and his family, he must want very much to work. It seems inconsistent to bitch about people on welfare at the same time you are bitching about people so willing to risk their lives to work.

I know if many handicap people that are working so what is keeping handicap people on welfare from doing other jobs. It doesn't take much effort to clean tables at a resturant or ring up customers at a "Stop and Rob". Here in Texas there is such a boom in jobs every gas stations is needing people and most are paying $7 an hour.

All that is a bit off topic. We are talking about forcing people into the fields to do stoop labor. Handicapped people might find that beyond their capability, and it takes a hell of a lot more effort than cleaning tables or ringing up customers or pumping gas.

[bug_power]

Or you could look at it this way. If a person is willing to risk dying of thirst crossing the desert to get work to support himself and his family, he must want very much to work. It seems inconsistent to bitch about people on welfare at the same time you are bitching about people so willing to risk their lives to work.



All that is a bit off topic. We are talking about forcing people into the fields to do stoop labor. Handicapped people might find that beyond their capability, and it takes a hell of a lot more effort than cleaning tables or ringing up customers or pumping gas.
Their is a difference between welfare and Disability. SSI Disibility covers people who are handicapped or can't work. not the welfare program.

[MichaelBaranows]

Those are good points Bill no matter what anyone says I think neither of us will probably not change our minds.

Personally I think prisoners working is a great idea. What is wrong with getting use out of a person that has broken the law and while locked up is being supporting by the government. Many of the prisons here in Texas and am I sure of much of the rest of the country are what we call "prison farms" where imated work on the farm for a small salary. I am not saying to beat them to make them work. But there is nothing wrong with making things nicer for imates that work. Maybe they get a steak once a week for dinner or takes some time off of there sentence for being a hard worker. plus I am sure most imates would rather be out working on a farm than logged up in 8x10 cell with only walls to stare at.

[MichaelBaranows]

Their is a difference between welfare and Disability. SSI Disibility covers people who are handicapped or can't work. not the welfare program.


Then that is good cause everyone in welfare can work and there is no reason they should. And I am sure that the public highways would look alot nicer if all the trash was cleaned up.

[MichaelBaranows]

All that is a bit off topic. We are talking about forcing people into the fields to do stoop labor. Handicapped people might find that beyond their capability, and it takes a hell of a lot more effort than cleaning tables or ringing up customers or pumping gas.

That is what I am saying, they don't have to work in field they can do other jobs like clean tables or pumping gas.

It is a nice day so I am off to get closer to the water.

[firefyterx]

See that is the thing without illegals they will be forced to pay better wages to get people to work. We will see a raise in the minimum wage without legislation, dictated by suply and demand not politicians. that is the way an economy is supposed to work.

[bug_power]

exactly....I'm all for (if you want to stay on Welfare you must do 40 hours a month MINIMUM of comminity service) cleaning parks. Painting government buildings, refuse removal, cleaning of parks and playgrounds, volunteering at shelters. It's all in there. I also like the farm prisons. The poverty level in this country has gone up, while wages have stayed stagnant. Why, cheap labor who doesn't pay taxes or SS. It's like working for 40% more wages. So an illegal can work for 40% less, doesn't expect benefits nor do they have to pay taxes. So how can a legal worker compare.

[mnguy]

See that is the thing without illegals they will be forced to pay better wages to get people to work. We will see a raise in the minimum wage without legislation, dictated by suply and demand not politicians. that is the way an economy is supposed to work.

Its *****ing fruit picking. Skilless, brainless labor that only requires a strong enough back to stoop over. Pay better wages my ass, $9.60 an hour is more than enough as it is.

Welfare Americans, in general, are too lazy to pick produce as it is, even $15 an hour wouldn't get alot of the people sitting around on welfare to go pick some stuff.

Bug, your idea is a great one though who knows if we can legally compel people to work for their welfare checks.

[jackpine savage]

Anyone here know someone on welfare because I don't. It would be interesting to know why and how people actually got onto welfare rather than simply making statements that may or may not be based on fact. While it would be nice if their were jobs for all those people to do I won't pass judgement on people whose situation I know nothing about.

[bug_power]

I haven 't been on welfare, but I was unemployed during the dot.com bomb, enron and 9/11 for 11 months. I sent out 437 resumes called each one of them twice, it was practically a full time job looking for one. I was on unemployment, and the people at the work force center were actually pretty good at finding contract work for me to do while trying to get full time status. That being said I still drained my savings paying a mortage, car payment, and bills in a house by myself. I'm positive that during that year I qualified for welfare, I didn't make 10k that year, it was horrible. However I took jobs where I could find them and lived off what assests I had. Now I've got a job that I love which is still a high need area. I don't have very much compassion for people too lazy to work. We all have hard times, some just expect people to pull us up out of the ruts, while others have to be dragged out kicking and screaming.

[deepdown]

While I understand the fact that people want to come to the US what is wrong with doing thing the proper way. Just come here legally.

Take it from an immigrant, it is not easy or cheap to come here legally. You need qualifications up the ass, and go through all sorts of legal filings that are very costly, way beyond what most immigrants can afford.

[mnguy]

Take it from an immigrant, it is not easy or cheap to come here legally. You need qualifications up the ass, and go through all sorts of legal filings that are very costly, way beyond what most immigrants can afford.

:yup: Unless you're fleeing an opressive regime and are asking for asylum like my family and many others did when South Vietnam fell to the communists.

[freedivingfool]

where talking about Illegal immigrants, But what would mexico do if we went over to their country and mooch of their government? I don't know how many times I have been to Mexico and got harassed and money taken from me by the police and federalies. There is no way any south American countries would support a mass exodus of Americans moving there and expecting to have everything free given to them, unlike the way we give everything free to the illegals here.

[mnguy]

where talking about Illegal immigrants, But what would mexico do if we went over to their country and mooch of their government? I don't know how many times I have been to Mexico and got harassed and money taken from me by the police and federalies. There is no way any south American countries would support a mass exodus of Americans moving there and expecting to have everything free given to them, unlike the way we give everything free to the illegals here.

I think if we went over there and did that to them they would sink. They already have enough troubles with their southern border. By that same token, Canada has been on the recieving end of American moochers who get Canadian ID cards and go across for the cheaper medicine. Perhaps that's the way of the world, mooch off of your northern neighbor.

Another thing is that due to our relative affluence to that of any South/Central American country, I don't think there would be much sympathy on their part towards Americans coming over to mooch whereas we are supposedly the richer, kinder sort and supposedly have the sympathy for the people who come here. I guess that's how America got its start and became great, picking up all the tempest tost while holding its lamp beside the golden door.

[freedivingfool]

well i just have certain problems, I'm Thai so i'm not bashing anyone, but my father is white. He is retired Military, but he got a stroke not too long ago, the VA was to far for the ambulance to go to, so he was taken to a civilian hospital. Since he has no Med insurance, he owes the hospital more money than he can ever come up with. While the good ole Illegals recieve free dental, emergency care, medication, child care, welfare, while my father who serve for 20 years in the military gets a big I don't give a shit what you did for your country, you owe us money. Is that justice or fair?

[Bill McIntyre]

well i just have certain problems, I'm Thai so i'm not bashing anyone, but my father is white. He is retired Military, but he got a stroke not too long ago, the VA was to far for the ambulance to go to, so he was taken to a civilian hospital. Since he has no Med insurance, he owes the hospital more money than he can ever come up with.

What about Tricare? I'm a bit out of date since I'm over 65 and in a different category, but couldn't he have chosen to pay Tricare premiums?

In any case, I agree that its a crying shame that every citizen doesn't receive basic medical care as a right, but when its proposed, everyone screams about the dreaded "socialized medicine."


While the good ole Illegals recieve free dental, emergency care, medication, child care, welfare,

Could you elaborate? In particular, I wasn't aware of dental, prescription drug, and child care programs for illegals. I don't know how it is where you come from, but in this area, illegal immigrants come here to work hard doing jobs that we don't want, and they are afraid to contact government for welfare or anything else because they don't want to be deported.

I recall a study in the LA area that showed that Hispanics, including legals as well as illegals, used social services at a far smaller rate than whites.

[bug_power]

Bill I'm not sure on the study I've actually heard the opposite.

[mnguy]

I recall a study in the LA area that showed that Hispanics, including legals as well as illegals, used social services at a far smaller rate than whites.

I've noticed that the only real social service that the illegals use the most, if you could even call it that, would be the emergency room. They thank their lucky stars that some old greek dude named Hippocrates wrote an oath so they don't get turned away for having no money. Of course, any money that they do have is squirreled away somewhere like the matress. Ive also noticed that they use alot of the private charity services, especially those of the Catholic church. From drawing out of the food banks to getting general aid, they rely on the church that they go to or the diocese that their church belongs to.

[freedivingfool]

well i know in fl, that once they have their babies, they the doctors follow ups are free. so it's baby formula, diapers, what ever! In fl, we used to have mass exodus of Haitians that would come here by boatloads, once they got here. the government provided housing, government money, and free healthcare UNTIL they got on their feet. Of course they would never admit to the government that they are doing fine now, because then the checks would run out! so they keep getting their money for doing nothing, most of them drive way nicer cars like BMW, LEXUS, and bling bling on their cars better than the average Americans.

[Bill McIntyre]

Ive also noticed that they use alot of the private charity services, especially those of the Catholic church. From drawing out of the food banks to getting general aid, they rely on the church that they go to or the diocese that their church belongs to.

I guess I can attest to that. Every Christmas, my wife's Catholic church has a thing where you can adopt a Hispanic family for the holiday. She draws a name, and then we call them and get a list of presents that they would like and a list of groceries that they would prefer for Christmas dinner.

When we go by to deliver this stuff, often times the parents don't speak much English and the kids have to translate.

I've never asked to see their papers.

It costs the government not a cent.

It makes me feel almost like a Christian (but don't tell anyone).

[Bill McIntyre]

Of course they would never admit to the government that they are doing fine now, because then the checks would run out! so they keep getting their money for doing nothing, most of them drive way nicer cars like BMW, LEXUS, and bling bling on their cars better than the average Americans.

I'm afraid I have to call bullshit on that one. Do you actually have any evidence that these Haitians are driving cars like BMW, Lexus, etc. or is this just what someone in a bar told you one night?


It may be true, but I want numbers and sources.

And if you actually think that these Haitians have it better than you, have you tried to pose as one?

[mnguy]

I guess I can attest to that. Every Christmas, my wife's Catholic church has a thing where you can adopt a Hispanic family for the holiday. She draws a name, and then we call them and get a list of presents that they would like and a list of groceries that they would prefer for Christmas dinner.

When we go by to deliver this stuff, often times the parents don't speak much English and the kids have to translate.

I've never asked to see their papers.

It costs the government not a cent.

It makes me feel almost like a Christian (but don't tell anyone).

Man Bill, did your surgeon accidentally activate the Catholic gene in you? :D

Yeah, I used to go to St. Ed's when I was growing up until I moved out to Riverside. I did it every year too. Every other church that I've been to does the same or something along the lines of food and Christmas cheer for the needy every year for Thanksgiving as well as Christmas.

[bgbill]

I guess I can attest to that. Every Christmas, my wife's Catholic church has a thing where you can adopt a Hispanic family for the holiday. She draws a name, and then we call them and get a list of presents that they would like and a list of groceries that they would prefer for Christmas dinner.


Bill,

Seems odd that they chose to help out only Hispanic families.

I guess the blacks, white trash and other non Hispanic's are just out of luck then.

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill,

Seems odd that they chose to help out only Hispanic families.

I guess the blacks, white trash and other non Hispanic's are just out of luck then.

Good question, but maybe I misrepresented the program. There may well be a few black and white trash families signing up. But the way it works is that a family has to submit their names to be drawn, and the hat seems to be full of Hispanics. Blacks are so rare in the area served by this parish that I actually notice them as exceptions if I see them in a market or on the street. Of course my wife used to see Kobe Bryant and his family at Mass pretty often, but he isn't asking for help. And of course O. J. Simpsons wife grew up in a gated community right up the PCH from the church and I'm told he was seen at Mass sometiimes, but I've never drawn his name either.

That leaves poor white trash, and while this is a pretty affluent area, I certainly do see a few street people pushing shopping carts up the PCH. Maybe they don't tend to be Catholics, while the Hispanics are.

Come to think of it, I guess blacks tend to adhere to other sects too, so putting that together with the fact that there are very few in the area anyway might explain why I don't see them in the program.

But I'll ask my wife to see if she knows the details of eligibility for help.

[Bill McIntyre]

OK, my wife just clarified. The Christmas program I mentioned is for families WITH CHILDREN. The idea is to provide a Christmas experience for kids that might not otherwise have one. Any poor family with children can apply. They don't have to be Catholic, but its just unlikely that a poor non-Catholic family would know about it or feel like they should participate.

And for all the reasons I previously mentioned, every family that we have drawn has been Hispanic.

If you are concerned that the church discriminates against whites, blacks, protestants, Godless and/or those without kids, she reminded me that people on her social justice committee run a food-for-the-homeless program near Costco, and all sorts of people show up.

[mnguy]

OK, my wife just clarified. The Christmas program I mentioned is for families WITH CHILDREN. The idea is to provide a Christmas experience for kids that might not otherwise have one. Any poor family with children can apply. They don't have to be Catholic, but its just unlikely that a poor non-Catholic family would know about it or feel like they should participate.

And for all the reasons I previously mentioned, every family that we have drawn has been Hispanic.

If you are concerned that the church discriminates against whites, blacks, protestants, Godless and/or those without kids, she reminded me that people on her social justice committee run a food-for-the-homeless program near Costco, and all sorts of people show up.

There also used to be a food bank, I don't know if it still exists since its been a few years, in a section of Knight Hall where they stored all sorts of canned goods and anyone in need could come ask a priest or one of the church staff to open it up and let them get some stuff.

Bill's pretty dead on about the reasons why it's mostly Hispanics that come up in the lottery. I think the only black people that I ever saw in the 20 years that I lived in the area was Kobe Bryant, OJ once at an Easter mass, Ken Norton(who actually lives in the area and is a pretty cool dude) and various people travelling into the area from out of town to go to the beach and/or go fishing out of the boats in the harbor.

Other than the two hispanic kids, I was the only other colored kid in my grade at St.Eds and even then the whole school was maybe 96% white and 3.5% hispanic and .5% asian(my sister, my friend and I)

Even when I went to high school, the ratios stayed pretty much the same, though now there were maybe 5 black kids out of a school of 2000.

[Bill McIntyre]

There also used to be a food bank, I don't know if it still exists since its been a few years, in a section of Knight Hall where they stored all sorts of canned goods and anyone in need could come ask a priest or one of the church staff to open it up and let them get some stuff.

I just checked with Nancy, and it still exists.

Other than the two hispanic kids, I was the only other colored kid in my grade at St.Eds and even then the whole school was maybe 96% white and 3.5% hispanic and .5% asian(my sister, my friend and I)

Even when I went to high school, the ratios stayed pretty much the same, though now there were maybe 5 black kids out of a school of 2000.

I don't know about St. Edwards now, but Nancy taught at Dana Hills, and her rough estimate is that blacks might be around 1% (30 out of 3000) of the students, but there are a hell of a lot of Asians.

[Christof]

officials plan to send prison inmates out to harvest crops. How very 19th century.And lord knows we wouldnt want to cut into their workout time or "soap hour" in the showers..... Why the hell shouldnt they do it?? Cruel and unusual punishment I suppose....

[Christof]

SSI Disibility covers people who are handicapped or can't work. not the welfare program.Yeah, and if you dont "THINK" you can work, just call that **** BINDER and he will get ya fixed right up...

You wouldnt believe how many people I meet in the field that are on SSI but can go hunting, work on the side for cash, etc.. One lady I just cared for told me she was disabled on the job. Her husband has been "disabled" and on SSI for years.. Well, she took her workers comp settlement, bought a new boat and a new airboat, and now hunts frogs and turtles in the glades... I told her that it sounded like hard work.. "Hell yeah it's hard work, but we make around $3000/week and during turtle season can make up to $7000".....

All the while both are collecting disability payments.... Christ, she didnt even walk with a limp...

[Christof]

they are afraid to contact government for welfare or anything else because they don't want to be deported.Christ Bill, I really hate always toasting your ass, but you are so FOS!!
Illegals are about as afraid of being deported nowadays as I am of growing breasts... Possible, but highly unlikely.. They have no problem telling me (and I see them DAILY) that they have no SSN... They come here for jobs, but also know they can get medical care, and social services without being turned in... They cannot be turned in for applying for social services, and it is against the law for us to turn them in when they seek health care... God, no wonder there are so many in this country that support illegals.. Cause they dont know what the hell they are talking about...

[Bill McIntyre]

Christ Bill, I really hate always toasting your ass, but you are so FOS!!


Yeah, like on that issue of spanking an arrestable offense.

[mnguy]

I don't know about St. Edwards now, but Nancy taught at Dana Hills, and her rough estimate is that blacks might be around 1% (30 out of 3000) of the students, but there are a hell of a lot of Asians.

Yeah, this was 10-15 years ago after all. Alot of us moved south from Irvine and Westminster probably 8 years ago before prices spiraled out of control.

I'd say that the high school I went to, Santa Margarita Catholic HS, is probably alot more colorful than it was 6 years ago when I left. It was starting to diversify a bit in the grades under me as I was heading out the door.

[Bill McIntyre]

I'd say that the high school I went to, Santa Margarita Catholic HS, is probably alot more colorful than it was 6 years ago when I left. It was starting to diversify a bit in the grades under me as I was heading out the door.

I hear its "colorful" in that those spoiled Coto de Caza kids can afford a lot of drugs.

[bgbill]

OK, my wife just clarified. The Christmas program I mentioned is for families WITH CHILDREN. The idea is to provide a Christmas experience for kids that might not otherwise have one. Any poor family with children can apply. They don't have to be Catholic, but its just unlikely that a poor non-Catholic family would know about it or feel like they should participate.

And for all the reasons I previously mentioned, every family that we have drawn has been Hispanic.

If you are concerned that the church discriminates against whites, blacks, protestants, Godless and/or those without kids, she reminded me that people on her social justice committee run a food-for-the-homeless program near Costco, and all sorts of people show up.

Bill,

You are the one who brought race into this not me, I just said i thought it was odd.

It seems to me that liberal democrats are the ones who are so concerned with race.

[Christof]

Yeah, like on that issue of spanking an arrestable offense.
Well if you doubt, just make a call to your local police and ask them if you had someone call them that you hit your child, what they would do...
I deal with law enforcement all the time, and also child abuse issues, so unless they are feeding me shit, it is the law.. You hit a child and admit it, you can be arrested... Now of course, I guess I also have to spell out that a wop on the butt of your 4 yr old will probably not get you busted, but grab your teen by the arm, lead them to their room, and then have them call the cops and show them the bruise on their arm (if you have to grab them, they're probably going to resist and try to pull away), you will take a little car ride....
Of course, there are the cases of teens getting punished and shooting their parent/s, but we dont need to go there...

[mnguy]

I hear its "colorful" in that those spoiled Coto de Caza kids can afford a lot of drugs.

Tell me about it :rolleyes: I think I saw more drug/alcohol abuse when I went there than I had through college. I also saw more shitty raised bro trucks there than anywhere else, but that's another story for another day and somewhat off topic.

Then again...this thread has been pretty well derailed in multiple directions so what could one more post hurt? :D

[thecrab87]

I can't comment on illegal immigrants, but we had a program that we used at Maui Pineapple whereby prisoners had a chance to work as pineapple harvesters. By all accounts, it was a success. We needed the labor; they were happy to get out and make some money. Of course, we paid them well ($10/hour if I remember right). At the peak, we had three full crews of prisoners working (one crew per harvesting machine).

The program met its demise when the funding for the management portion of it got cut. I thought that was a bummer, because it seemed a good way to re-integrate the prisoners back into normal society.

[Stealthdiver]

Its easy to see that most people who have jobs which don't pertain to the fields that is low labor jobs have no clue whats going on. They think they do and its funny to watch them throw out their ideas. Do you really think we can replace 10 million workers ? Do you really think the government will cut benefits they already give out ? I could see the discrimination suits now, that won't happen. Do you want to pay 50 % more for produce ? How many of you have a yard service ? How would you like it to double ? So you'd cut it yourself .. well that would cut out your diving .. America has adjusted to life as it is and trying drastic measure's would cripple it. Another example , we had a Tornado come right through my town last friday. Sure there were some skilled power guys out making who knows how much per hr. , double time i'm sure. Almost all the cleanup people were mexicans. 10 to 1 , including roofers. Americans in their Tahoe's clogged up the roads riding by to see the damage while work was being done. Not 1 person was saying send them home at that point. Its insane to say they are not a benefit and keep this country turning at the point it is. We could step back but everyone loved the wave we've been riding the last 10 years , who wants to go back. It just needs to be more organized with border control, id's , taxes , etc. Low paid americans for the most part are sorry. Sorry for all you guys who don't believe me but if you don't work them you really have no idea what your talking about. I've had plenty over the last 10 years, if they have sense , they move on , if not, most are undependable, on drugs, steal from you, have problems and need to be off all the time. Come join my world, hard working, lower income people and tell me what you think. Colorado says they won't even plant crops if they have no labor ? Thats just one place, can you imagine the entire country trying to re orgainze around very little labor. Americans are spoiled and like it ! I'm one of them !

frank b

[Christof]

How many of you have a yard service ? How would you like it to double ? So you'd cut it yourself .. well that would cut out your diving .. I agree that it is not a simple subject... But I have a rather large yard, and pay $80/month for it to be cut, trimmed, edged, and sidewalks blown, occ. fertilizer, etc... AND... It is an older white lady, her son, his best friend, and a girl that is in college I think.... Never seen her use an immigrant... She tells me that she has been doing it for 15 yrs and does pretty well financially.... Hell, I couldnt hardly afford to buy a rider and do it all myself when it only costs me $80/month....
I also have met several migrants that pick oranges. They bust their ass no doubt, but all admit to making $12-$15/hr for their efforts... Sure beats sitting around drawing welfare...

[Stealthdiver]

Average yds around here, $ 40.00 bucks per week , most only do year round service , so you'd go to $ 320.00 per month , $ 400 on a 5 week month and maybe $ 160.00 in Jan-Feb. Thats double on average ! Those cheap people will jack their prices through the roof when demand hits. Cheap will be no more !

[Christof]

I dont get your math.... $40/week and 4 weeks in a month (most months) equals $160/month.... Still not bad...

[mnguy]

I've got a pretty big yard (1.3 acres) and my guys do the lawnmowing and edging for $40 a month, split into every 2 weeks. Sometimes I'll get some of the guatemalan day laborers that live a mile or so up the street to come over and give me a hand removing weeds or trenching sprinklers and other lines when I first moved in.

Of course, I was always down in the ditches with them as I have no respect for a boss who can't and won't do what he asks those under him to do. I paid them $10/hr each plus a nice bonus at the end of the day. I also gave them stuff that I had that they wanted and I didn't need anymore, like a pair of bikes that I hadn't used in years. Those two guys help me out alot. They also know that when my fruit trees mature in a year or two they are welcome to come on by and get as much as they want, even though I planted those myself.

So yeah, I'd have to agree with stealthdiver. We as a nation have come to depend on alot of the services that these people will render since we cannot bear to do them ourselves. Imagine not just agriculture and manufacturing, but the hotel and other service industries without these people here. If they all left and that labor pool suddenly shrank, most businesses in each sector that they touch would probably be forced out of business.

[firefyterx]

From the L.A Times:

1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County (L.A. County has 10 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.

2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking.

10. In L.A. County 5.1 million people speak English. 3.9 million speak Spanish ( 10.2 million people in L.A.County).


(All the above from the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare.

Over 70% of the United States' annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York) results from immigration.

The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was, (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay), a NET $70 BILLION a year, [Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University]. The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average = adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE number.

29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.

[Bill McIntyre]

Could you give me a link for that?

[khel]

I guess it's either LA is "special" or it's just a BS.
I don't see anyone living in garages in Chicago or Milwaukee area :)

Oh, and I still wonder how in hell can an illegal get a welfare??

p.s. link would be helpful

[Stealthdiver]

Sounds like some skewed #'s and I totallly agree there are some bad apples in every group and it must be addressed. Nothing that a work visa with photo and # matching who you are to clean it up. Make it where you can't work without it, get caught without one and your put in jair or deported. We collect on taxes. Its like not that hard to work it out but the government seems to want to make it hard. I'd be in favor of them paying the max on taxes , add 2% for rebuilding social security, add 2% to build a medical program for them if they don't pay and if they don't like it , which some want, give them the address to become legal , which 99% of them can't get done anyway. No other benefits ! To be honest, I know lots of them and they don't benefits just a small # like the ones who protested a while back. They basically just want to work , and have a small life and go home every few years. The ones I know are good people , more dependable than any American ( I said any ) i've known. I stand by that statement. I've had 5 that work for me for 4-8 years now and I can't even remember a day when they didn't work or want to. They work on weekends, late, when they are sick, don't want time off for kid functions etc. Who can make this claim ? I own the business and can't do it. I also have know some sorry ones that come through sometimes and probably would best to the country to be deported. They are here, we need to be smart , use them for labor, and make money off it, help rebuild where we have screwed up. You could even slap a 2% war time tax on them. They won't leave, they still would be making good money. As long as we give out free checks, free or almost free housing, food stamps, free medical , we will need lots of help to do hard labor jobs. The government isn't taking anything away , just giving more. Its all about orgainization and the government can't seem to get on board !

[Bill McIntyre]

While we wait for a link to verify those figures, I'll comment on a couple of the points made.

Yes, I'm afraid they do crowd houses and live in garages. They don't make much money and are struggling to get by. I've read about many living in cardboard and scrap lumber shelters near the fields where they pick. The employers don't seem to worry about that.

As to the allegation that less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops- I have no idea whether or not that is true, but the more important question is what percentage of our crops are being picked by illegal aliens. This thread started with a story about Colorado worrying about having enough labor in the fields, and I'm pretty certain that California's agricultural sector would collapse if we suddenly deported all the illegals.

But lets assume that the 2% figure is true- where are the rest of them? They are tending our lawns, nannying our kids, painting our houses, busing our tables, washing our restaurant dishes, etc. etc. etc. I don't think that film "A Day Without a Mexican" was very far off on the economic and social disaster that would ensue if we magically got rid of the illegals.

[Don B]

How about this crime stat, EVERY undocumented alien is a criminal, they are here illegally which makes them a criminal. What else do you guys need to get it?

[Bill McIntyre]

How about this crime stat, EVERY undocumented alien is a criminal, they are here illegally which makes them a criminal. What else do you guys need to get it?

I really can't get too excited about it when we are effectively inviting them here to do our work for us. The people who hire them are criminals too. Go arrest the Chairman of the Board of Tyson. His chicken processing plants are full of them.

Or, we could always try a sensible immigration policy that recognizes the twin realities- they need work, and we need labor. I'm sure most of them would prefer to skip long life-threatening hikes across the desert or trips through tunnels, and I'm sure most employers would prefer to quit trying to play INS agents.

Of course we are unlikely to do that because the racists among us don't want it to happen. I heard a program last week saying that there are 500 thousand illegal immigrants from Ireland in this country, and no one is excited at all about that. Wonder why?

[Don B]

Bill what part of "every undocumented alien is a criminal" don't you get? Korean, Irish, Mexican, or from where ever, if they are here illegally they are criminals, end of story. As for employers who knowingly employ them, they also are criminals and should be punished under the laws of our nation.

So put your race card back in your pocket for accusation's later in the day, I'm sure you will want to throw it about at someone else who disagrees with you. By the way Mexican is a nationality not a race.

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill what part of "every undocumented alien is a criminal" don't you get? Korean, Irish, Mexican, or from where ever, if they are here illegally they are criminals, end of story. As for employers who knowingly employ them, they also are criminals and should be punished under the laws of our nation.

I get it. Illegal is a crime. So as I said, lets make them legal, and then it won't be a crime. Meanwhile, I'm just not all worked up over someone breaking the law to keep his family alive. I'd do it too if that was the choice, and I bet you would too. There are higher standards of morality than observing political boundaries arbitrarily established by mortal men.

Meanwhile, the hue and cry is not against the criminal employers- its against the immigrants they hire. Its also ironic that politicians who get the most mileage out of bashing immigrants turn out to be employers. When our former Republican Governor Pete Wilson decided to run for President, he set out to bash the state's immigrants to prove himself to the hard right of his party. Then it turned out that while Mayor of San Diego, he had illegals working in his home. Of course being the honorable man that he was, he blamed it on his wife.

When Republican Congressman Michael Huffington, Ariana's ex-husband, was running for the Senate, he hung his hat on immigrant bashing. Then it turned out that their kid's nanny was an illegal immigrant. I think he too said that he let his wife handle that stuff.

So put your race card back in your pocket for accusation's later in the day, I'm sure you will want to throw it about at someone else who disagrees with you. By the way Mexican is a nationality not a race.

I have no idea whether you are racist, and the comment was not directed at you personally, but at the motivation of many who are worried about these damn Hispanics diluting our culture. Meanwhile, while I know that Mexican is a nationality, you should know that our Hispanic immigrants are coming from all over Central America, not Mexico alone. I doubt that you will find many with pure Spanish blood. They mostly look very native American, have dark skins and features that are easily recognizable as not from Northern Europe, and are easy targets of racism.

[firefyterx]

I cant get into the LA times archives without paying to find the illegal immigrant crime article but take a look at Colorado Senator Dave Schultheis web page

http://www.daveschultheis.com/CURRENTISSUES/IllegalImmigration/Crime/CrimetheIllegalAlienTheFalloutfromCrippledImmigrat ionEnforcement/Index.html

[firefyterx]

Here is another article that pertains

http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html

[mnguy]

Bill what part of "every undocumented alien is a criminal" don't you get? Korean, Irish, Mexican, or from where ever, if they are here illegally they are criminals, end of story. As for employers who knowingly employ them, they also are criminals and should be punished under the laws of our nation.

So put your race card back in your pocket for accusation's later in the day, I'm sure you will want to throw it about at someone else who disagrees with you. By the way Mexican is a nationality not a race.

Well then, sir, if you think that no matter where they come from they are criminals, can you produce your documents from when your family got here? If not, then you got grandfathered into this country and are essentially a criminal as well. I know I can produce my family's papers.

So would you be willing to import almost all the food you eat or grow it yourself? You had better be if that is your stance, as arresting every illegal and person who hires an illegal means that all that food will go to rot in the fields, with no pickers and nobody to hire more pickers to get them.

Would you go pick the produce yourself? That would make you a thief and, in essence, a poacher.

You can maintain whatever hard line you want, but understand that this country has been going against your hard line for generations now. We would not be what we are and cannot continue to be what we are by devolving. Moving forward and continuing to make progress on these issues will help keep this country afloat. Backpedaling and maintaining a stick in one's ass will only help this country to sink.

[Stealthdiver]

Don B , you need to take a look around your neighborhood. When I was working in Mississippi after the big one , it was mostly mexicans and heavy equipment doing the cleanup , putting stuff back together. All the locals stood and watched , begged for something free, somebody owes me something. They moved out and the Mexicans moved in to get the work done. I was in Cozumel last year when it got hit. As soon as the storm was gone, we went outside and everybody was working, kids, ladies, all able bodied people. They used broken shovels, half brooms whatever they had to get the job done. They know there is no use sitting around complaining and waiting on a handout. Here we rush in to give them everything, credit cards, hotels, trailors, like taking care of babies. You want to arrest hard working people ? I just wish some of you guys could come work with me for a few weeks. Try and hire some Americans in the low labor bracket.. You'd be begging for a dependable honest Mexican to help you. Trust me, I live it everyday !

[Don B]

Don B , you need to take a look around your neighborhood. When I was working in Mississippi after the big one , it was mostly mexicans and heavy equipment doing the cleanup , putting stuff back together. All the locals stood and watched , begged for something free, somebody owes me something. They moved out and the Mexicans moved in to get the work done. I was in Cozumel last year when it got hit. As soon as the storm was gone, we went outside and everybody was working, kids, ladies, all able bodied people. They used broken shovels, half brooms whatever they had to get the job done. They know there is no use sitting around complaining and waiting on a handout. Here we rush in to give them everything, credit cards, hotels, trailers, like taking care of babies. You want to arrest hard working people ? I just wish some of you guys could come work with me for a few weeks. Try and hire some Americans in the low labor bracket.. You'd be begging for a dependable honest Mexican to help you. Trust me, I live it everyday !

Stealthdiver I don't know where you were at but it was not on the north-shore of the lake. The people over here were hard at work cleaning this mess up long before any help arrived. Across the lake was and is a different story. I lived through the shit of Katrina and still am. The ones who showed up here to help were the people of faith in all denominations, without asking questions they help those in need put their homes together, asking nothing in return. The illegals and contractors came only for profit and nothing more, so don't ask me to give any special thanks, you made yours.

As for my forefathers coming here, they came here legally, they word you guys keep forgetting. Legally, like the difference between earning a living by working for pay and stealing from someone. Legal, illegal big difference.

[khel]

As for my forefathers coming here, they came here legally, ......

Somehow, I don't think Native Americans would agree with you on that one ;)

[bgbill]

As for my forefathers coming here, they came here legally


Somehow, I don't think Native Americans would agree with you on that one ;)

Did the Native Americans have laws pertaining to immigration?

[Bill McIntyre]

How about this crime stat, EVERY undocumented alien is a criminal, they are here illegally which makes them a criminal. What else do you guys need to get it?

Don,

Since illegality seems to be such an important consideration to you but not to me, I gave some thought to the basis of my beliefs. Perhaps Kohlberg's Levels of Moral Development might be a useful point of departure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development

In case someone doesn't want to read it all, I've pasted in a couple of paragraphs.

In Stage four, it is important to obey laws, dictums and social conventions because of their importance in maintaining a functioning society. Moral reasoning in stage four is thus beyond the need for individual approval exhibited in stage three; society must learn to transcend individual needs. A central ideal or ideals often prescribe what is right and wrong, such as in the case of fundamentalism. If one person violates a law, perhaps everyone would - thus there is an obligation and a duty to uphold laws and rules. When someone does violate a law, it is morally wrong; culpability is thus a significant factor in this stage as it separates the bad domains from the good ones.

In Stage six, moral reasoning is based on abstract reasoning using universal ethical principles. Laws are valid only insofar as they are grounded in justice, and that a commitment to justice carries with it an obligation to disobey unjust laws.

In the rest of the description, it goes on to say that Kohlberg thinks very few people actually achieve level 6, but I'm trying. Maybe that's why I'm more concerned with social justice than an obligation to simply obey every law that our wise legislative bodies may pass.

This is not to say that there may not be valid arguments against letting illegal aliens get past our borders, but simply that the fact that an illegal alien is a law breaker per se is of little concern to me.

PS: wasn't Jesus Christ a law breaker?

[Don B]

Don,

Since illegality seems to be such an important consideration to you but not to me, I gave some thought to the basis of my beliefs. Perhaps Kohlberg's Levels of Moral Development might be a useful point of departure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development

In case someone doesn't want to read it all, I've pasted in a couple of paragraphs.



In the rest of the description, it goes on to say that Kohlberg thinks very few people actually achieve level 6, but I'm trying. Maybe that's why I'm more concerned with social justice than an obligation to simply obey every law that our wise legislative bodies may pass.

This is not to say that there may not be valid arguments against letting illegal aliens get past our borders, but simply that the fact that an illegal alien is a law breaker per se is of little concern to me.

PS: wasn't Jesus Christ a law breaker?

Odd you reference Christ when it serves your purpose, and throw rocks at him and his believers at other times.

But to say that a law breaker who breaks a law you do not hold with is of little concern to you, puts you on par with the common street criminal, as they would say the same.

[bgbill]

PS: wasn't Jesus Christ a law breaker?

What laws did he break?

[khel]

Did the Native Americans have laws pertaining to immigration?

I would say, yes, they did.

[Bill McIntyre]

Odd you reference Christ when it serves your purpose, and throw rocks at him and his believers at other times.

I may not believe he was devine and sent by God, but I think he had a great message, and one which I wish more of his followers adhered to.

But to say that a law breaker who breaks a law you do not hold with is of little concern to you, puts you on par with the common street criminal, as they would say the same.

That is a rather simplistic way of thinking, but I guess it avoids any moral dilemmas for you. The law required Germans to turn in jews to be incinerated. Do you think breaking that law made them the equivalent of a common criminal?

The civil rights advances in this country were the result of civil disobedience, and I don't lump those brave people with shop lifters.

[bgbill]

I would say, yes, they did.

Care to share them with the rest of us? as that is news to me.

[khel]

Care to share them with the rest of us? as that is news to me.

News to you?? Lol, you don't like history too much, do you?

Let me see, every tribe had it's laws concerning aliens and ways for them to become a tribe member (citizen).

Here's one extract for you for example
"Among the Iroquoian tribes kinship is traced through the blood of the woman only; kinship means membership in a family, and this in turn constitutes citizenship in the tribe, conferring certain social, political, and religious privileges, duties, and rights which are denied to persons of alien blood; but, by a legal fiction embodied in the right of adoption, the blood of the alien may be figuratively changed into one of the strains of the Iroquoian blood, and thus citizenship may be conferred on a person of alien lineage."

or another one from the "Constitution of the Iroquois Nations (http://www.constitution.org/cons/iroquois.htm) "
"If any man or any nation outside the Five Nations shall obey the laws of the Great Peace and make known their disposition to the Lords of the Confederacy, they may trace the Roots to the Tree and if their minds are clean and they are obedient and promise to obey the wishes of the Confederate Council, they shall be welcomed to take shelter beneath the Tree of the Long Leaves."

[bgbill]

News to you?? Lol, you don't like history too much, do you?

Let me see, every tribe had it's laws concerning aliens and ways for them to become a tribe member (citizen).

Here's one extract for you for example
"Among the Iroquoian tribes kinship is traced through the blood of the woman only; kinship means membership in a family, and this in turn constitutes citizenship in the tribe, conferring certain social, political, and religious privileges, duties, and rights which are denied to persons of alien blood; but, by a legal fiction embodied in the right of adoption, the blood of the alien may be figuratively changed into one of the strains of the Iroquoian blood, and thus citizenship may be conferred on a person of alien lineage."

or another one from the "Constitution of the Iroquois Nations (http://www.constitution.org/cons/iroquois.htm) "
"If any man or any nation outside the Five Nations shall obey the laws of the Great Peace and make known their disposition to the Lords of the Confederacy, they may trace the Roots to the Tree and if their minds are clean and they are obedient and promise to obey the wishes of the Confederate Council, they shall be welcomed to take shelter beneath the Tree of the Long Leaves."

I don't see where it outlaws immigration, besides didn't we kill of most of the indians anyway?

[Bill McIntyre]

What laws did he break?

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jesusignorelaw.html

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2323

http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn01/commandmentsjesusbreak.htm

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2001/20010301.htm

[bgbill]

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jesusignorelaw.html

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2323

http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn01/commandmentsjesusbreak.htm

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2001/20010301.htm

Maybe we should just kill him then.

[Bill McIntyre]

Maybe we should just kill him then.

I'm told that we did. The only question is whether or not it will last.

[Bill McIntyre]

The law of unintended consequences strikes again.

WASHINGTON, March 11 — A new federal rule intended to keep illegal immigrants from receiving Medicaid has instead shut out tens of thousands of United States citizens who have had difficulty complying with requirements to show birth certificates and other documents proving their citizenship, state officials say.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/12/us/12medicaid.html?hp

[Bill McIntyre]

You anti-immigrant guys would have loved 60 Minutes tonight. They did a piece on all the Iraqis that served as interpreters for us and are now being hunted down by the insurgents, but we won't let them into the US so that they can be saved. They said that there were about 100,000 working for us, but with families it would come to around half a million.

An Assistant Secretary of State said that we just can't easily absorb people in those quantities. Then they interviewed the woman in charge of that thing during the Ford administration. When Ford said "do it" we settled 131,000 Vietnamese refugees in 8 months.

Of course Ford was a human being, which probably made a difference, and he wasn't trying to deny that a little war could have caused inconvenience for anyone.

[mnguy]

I'm told that we did. The only question is whether or not it will last.
:D

[khel]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Christof]

I get it. Illegal is a crime. So as I said, lets make them legal, and then it won't be a crime.
And this is where I get REALLY frustrated.... Nearly everyone agrees that a guestworker program is the answer, but then many start to say that in addition to a worker program, we need to stop the flood over the border for it to work... Of course, this is completely reasonable, but then the cries of racism and inferences of the berlin wall are used.. WTF is up with that? Why is is racist to say that we need to stop the illegal crossings for the guest worker program to work as intended?
To me, it boils down to those that sing the guest worker program really want open borders but know that most dont want that, so they sing along with the guest worker program as it will legalize those already here and also let in millions more under the program, but still allow those that either cant be in the worker program or dont want to be patient and fill out the paperwork, etc., to simply come across as they wish and face no repurcussions...
Guest worker program is a great idea, but without shutting down the illegal crossings, it will only compound the problem, not fix it... We will simply have an even bigger problem in the next decade trying to figure out what to do then with the masses of illegal immigrants that will surely come...

[Christof]

I don't see where it outlaws immigration, besides didn't we kill of most of the indians anyway?
Of course, everyone conveniently forgets that indians migrated here at one time too, and conquered whoever was here to gain their land... I lived near the place where they found "The Kennewick Man" and as soon as they found out he was over 9,000 yrs old and had caucasion features, the indians sued to have his remains buried rather than studied... Why is that? Anyone who thinks their were no humans here when the asians (our indians) migrated here is ignorant...
Having a son that has American Indian in him, I do have a little bit of right to speak on it, so dont start with any anti-indian bashing posts....

[mcjaret]

Christof,

Kennewick Man is one older skeleton that didn't seem to be related to the tribes who eventually stayed in that area. The tribes didn't want some other group showing up and making a claim as to the land. I have never seen any evidence that the Native American peoples conquered and killed off some "other" older pre-existing peoples who were caucasians (or any other race than that of generally Native Amercians). Some tribes have disappeared but no indication they were anything but Native Americans. Where did you come up with that idea?

[bikewrench]

Christof,

Kennewick Man is one older skeleton that didn't seem to be related to the tribes who eventually stayed in that area. The tribes didn't want some other group showing up and making a claim as to the land. I have never seen any evidence that the Native American peoples conquered and killed off some "other" older pre-existing peoples who were caucasians (or any other race than that of generally Native Amercians). Some tribes have disappeared but no indication they were anything but Native Americans. Where did you come up with that idea?
The way I read it it sounded like he was implying that the groups we call collectively 'Native Americans' actually ousted an earlier white group of inhabitants.

[spaghetti]

You americans are lucky to have a mostly mexican-latin immigration: they're christians like most of you, they have the same concept of family and society, almost all of them accept the fact that women may work and go to school, et cetera. I mean come on, it's people you can easily live together, since there's a common background under many fundamental aspects.
Here in Europe it's harder, because our immigration is mostly muslim and there's not such a common background, so it's a bit harder to live together in mutual respect. But it's got to be done.

What your latin and our muslim immigrants have in common, is that they mostly come from places where the society is not based on justice, on whisdom, on civil rights, on the respect of the dignity of every man and woman no matter what his gender, opinions, religion, fortune, race. They can learn to appreciate the advantages of this system and become good neighbours. But first we must show them that these justice and democracy and tolerance and respect are something more than just words.

This is my point: immigration is not a problem if we keep our countries a place where people can live together in peace. But prejudice and hatred don't help: if we treat immigrants like enemies, they will consider us as enemies as well. They'll never be good neighbours to live with, but just...aliens!
While if we make them understand that our system is based on respect for every human being, starting with respecting them, hopefully they will learn to respect us and our system. So that we'll have good neighbours to live with, and not just aliens.

[canuck]

I am an immigrant to the US, I did not speak much English but I learned. I paid my own way through college. I worked the whole time I attended class and graduated with less than ten thousand in debt. If I can do it, everyone can. The unconditional handing out of resources (especially financial) creates dependency and encourages corruption.

Everyone thinks that new laws will deter illegal behavior. Where does that come from?

I see only one way to fix the illegal immigration from Central America and Mexico. We need to get rid of the corruption that exists there. I see no reason, other than corrupt government, for Mexico not to have the same standard on living than the US and Canada. We cannot fix the problem from this side on the border.

Now that we have experience with nation building, let bring our troops back and send them to Mexico and build their government from scratch. (joke)

[Bill McIntyre]

On a related subject, here is an article about Hazleton, PA, the town that passed its own an-immigration laws. The ACLU and other groups are taking it to court.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-hazleton13mar13,1,1857192.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

[Dive4Blood]

How about you guys (that dive in the Gulf of Mexico) focus on the fact that we could very likely have some pretty draconian regulations for gag grouper and amberjack shoved down on throats in the near future based on very poor data? Keep up the apathy, and you'll have plenty of time for this mental masturbation.

http://www.spearboard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42458&page=1

[Christof]

Christof,

Kennewick Man is one older skeleton that didn't seem to be related to the tribes who eventually stayed in that area. The tribes didn't want some other group showing up and making a claim as to the land. I have never seen any evidence that the Native American peoples conquered and killed off some "other" older pre-existing peoples who were caucasians (or any other race than that of generally Native Amercians). Some tribes have disappeared but no indication they were anything but Native Americans. Where did you come up with that idea?
Maybe because Kennewick man had caucasion features, not asian (mongoloid)??
Also, the indians kept no written record, so of course there are none... The main point is that people have migrated to this country for millenia, and modern indian tribes always fought for the best hunting/gathering grounds.. Often, smaller bands would join together and gather as one group, then go back to their main living areas.... Strength in numbers...
I just wish that Kenewick man would have been able to be studied for anthropological purposes.. Could have learned a lot...