View Full Version : Daryl Wong's Words (on the MG Special)
09-05-2003, 02:36 PM
There has been a lot of talk about this new gun being capable of doing it all, and it probably comes closer than most ever could, but...
Read Darly's comments below:
"Of the guns available for the Florida area, I think this would be one of the most versatile guns to have simply because it can be free shafted, lined shafted, and used with a reel if wanted."
"You can load up to six 9/16 bands in the aluminum muzzle or just use it with two or three. The problem with loading more than three bands would be dealing with the recoil. It is not internally ballasted like the blue water guns so loading up on bands could affect the accuracy."
"If the divers want to load up on the bands, then I would recommend the Mahi gun which is the same length as the MG special. Its listed as 55in but it is actually the same stock length as the MG Special gun."
09-05-2003, 03:56 PM
Chad, why would you want to put three bands on a freeshaft? Doesn't the accuracy diminish as you add bands? Is distance the only real benefit to this? Won't three bands cause excessive shear and damage to the barb and pin as well as quickly blunting the point when you shoot it into the rocks?
I have always felt that the greatest advantage to freeshafting (other than no line) came from the simplicity of one band, very accurate, quick repetition shooting. Triple the band cost as well!
09-05-2003, 04:06 PM
Kind of throws the whole speed of the quiver out the window, when you are forced to load the gun by sticking the shaft in the small whole in the muzzle. No more reloading before you look to see where the first shaft went. Beautiful gun, but I don't see how the benefits out weight the negatives for a reef gun. For a single fish and a single shot I'm sure it would be great, but on the reef?
09-05-2003, 04:15 PM
I don't think that it designed to be a production gun (capable of shooting many fish quickly). It's designed more as a highly accurate tool to take a few select fish. I think that the 3 or more band comments may have been prompted more by Iya's input and questions than anyone considering freeshafting with that many bands. A different tool for a different purpose. I doubt that it would replace a gun like the Commercial in the Middlegrounds unless you are using it just to trophy hunt. It probably has more East Coast practical applications and may replace more Riffes and Billers here.
09-05-2003, 05:08 PM
You can speculate all you want to, but since this weekend is out for diving, I'll reserve all judgement until I shoot the gun!
What I do know is I have two 5/8" x (24", I think) bands, not 9/16", and hip loading each of these bands to the second pin is all that I can do. A lot of guys can't hip load it at all. It feels about like taking my 52 Seahornet back to it's second notch with a 3/4" x 26" band. (FYI that's a lot stronger than a 22" x 5/8" band on the same gun.)
As far as speed loading, I just tried the MGS in my living room. It took about 6 to 7 seconds to load the empty gun with a spear and cock one band to the second pin. I can't do it by feel yet, but that'll come as I get to know her a little better. I usually load my SH in 4 to 5 seconds and can do it in the dark, or more importantly while I'm looking at the next fish, but I've had that gun longer than my wife of 19 years!
I'll keep you posted on it's performance.
09-05-2003, 09:56 PM
The gun will not loose accuracy because you can increase the power linearly and have no whipping because of the enclosed track. There are pluses and minuses depending on who you are and what you sell. There is no way that a one band gun will get you the same distance that 3 bands will. Accuracy wise, there is nothing better than an enclosed track as the shaft must come out completely straight. To take a 20 foot shot, give me a 3 band enclosed track any day. One band and 5/16 shaft???? not very long shots which are sometimes needed. On the enclosed track you can load one, two or three bands depending on what you see. The shaft tip will only take a beating if you shoot with three bands into a rock......why would you??? The main thing about the enclosed track is its accuracy and the fact that you have very little recoil so powering up the gun for a long shot is never an issue. However if i am hunting holes, I would only load one band and now I have the same as a sea hornet with a much smoother, quiter and balanced gun. I will never understand how this gun would be considered a replacement for a riffe or biller but not a sea hornet??? The riffe is a much better gun and much quieter too. I have used the Daryl wong Mahi with 1, 2 3, and four bands. Nothing like being able to power up when you need to and still have the ability to shoot into a hole or rocks with extreme silence and accuracy. But then again, if youre shooting one band youre shooting from very close range which is the most correct way to spearfish. In Miami, we sometimes get lucky and get close to fish but the majority of the time, youre looking at 20 foot shots if you are going to land a grouper thats not holed up.
I spoke to Jay Riffe about his gun and he feels his gun (biased) would outperform any other gun under the same circumstances. A Riffe or Daryl Wong will shoot and reload just as quickly as any other gun provided you are using the same amount of bands. The fact that is has an enclosed track will never, ever cause you delay once you get used to loading the gun. I typically grab the shaft by the middle and it just drops right in. 4 or 5 second reload time. It doesnt get much better than that. my .02
09-05-2003, 11:02 PM
JC............The Southern Open is the perfect opportunity to bring all your guns over and knock the snot out of us SS, Sea Hornet, and Biller users. You will even have a chance to whip up on the SS gun St Pete Open winners. Can we count on ya? :D
09-06-2003, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by JCACTION
I will never understand how this gun would be considered a replacement for a riffe or biller but not a sea hornet???
My comment was meant to indicate that, based upon what I've heard here about Wong guns - and perhaps I'm mistaken - that they appear to be very accurate line and freeshaft guns.
The Wong would certainly compete with the lineshaft Riffe that currently meets my needs for lineshafting on the East coast. From your comments, I would suspect that they are amore accurate tool for this purpose.
When I go to the Middlegrounds, my Riffe is a backup gun to my Commercial guns. I do not drop on a spot with my Riffe unless I expect to shoot one or two trophy fish. Otherwise, I use my Commercial (sea hornet) so that I can reload more quickly, freeshaft (although I now understand that this can also be done with a Riffe) and also carry a spare shaft or two. Unless the Wong can be modified to carry more than one shaft and can quickly be converted to a line gun when necessary (as the SS gun can), I don't see it as a replacement for the sea hornet (SS) gun in the Middlegrounds because it is not as versaitile a tool.
Different guns for different purposes. I just think that the Wong will replace more guns that I would otherwise use on the East Coast (Riffe and Biller) than the sea hornet (SS ) gun that I would otherwise use on the West Florida Coast. No offense to you or certainly Mr.Wong. That is all that I meant.
Hope to see you at the Southern Open!
09-06-2003, 01:47 AM
Wow, I'm amazed at how many of you think you can guess what this gun can do and can't do just by hearing about it, from the descriptions of others who shot something else!
I've shot Seahornets from Biller and SS, Riffes, JBLs and bunch of other guns we don't need to drag into this, and it comes down to this...with a freeshaft and in the hands of an experienced freeshaft shooter every one of them can take down a lot of bottom fish, of all sizes, in a very short period of time, just about anywhere in Florida!
I know that the Wong "Middle Grounds Special" will be no exception because I can shoot it with a single strong band the same way I have all the others.
The MGS was designed to be a freeshaft gun for the Grounds and deeper, where you can still run into 50 to 80 lbs groupers, fast mutton or red snappers, schools of 8 to 10 lbs mangroves, or a pack of 20 to 30 lbs gags. (I won't speculate about the advantages of enclosed tracks and multiple bands until I've shot it. Those features will be great if they can make for longer shots when you really need them on big spooky fish.)
I can load it up with shaft and light holders but I'll start out without them and see how it shoots first. I may get another one pretty soon and leave it rigged as a line gun. Thats the way I like to pack.
As far as it being better as an East coast gun? That makes little sense. Most of the Wong reef guns that are being shot over there are 48 to 50 inches with 9/32" shafts for agility and quickness for the generally smaller fish that frequent that coast. (Except in deep water, during cold water upwellings and in the late Fall, Winter and Early Spring.) Those guns can shoot pretty big fish too, but I know 9/32" shafts were not strong enough or heavy enough for me in the Grounds and deeper waters of the Gulf, Marquesas and Tortugas.
When I dove scuba on the rigs the last two years, both of my Seahornet line guns, (one Biller and one Australian or SS) where out of their league trying to make longshots for spooky red snapper and groupers. Most of those guys out there have switched to Riffes and some are now going to Wongs. While freediving in bluewater that's also almost all you see. I look forward to finally having a powerful accurate gun for those trips. But as Daryl said this is not a gun to load up 5 big bands for tuna, but it will probably be fine with three.
It's a damn shame the weather's so bad, but it'll have to wait!
09-06-2003, 08:03 AM
Chad, very well said. I think you are going to be absolutely astonished when you try your new “MG”. Too bad everyone couldn’t get a chance to try your gun.
Another beauty of the Wong gun is that they are custom. We all have our style of diving. What works for us, may not work for others. We dive in different areas, have different conditions, different objectives, and so on. Wong can make a gun for your needs.
I do a lot of diving, 5 days a week weather permitting. So time-to-time, I change up the type of hunting I do. I’ll end up with 3 Wong guns, the 50” rear-handle plus, my custom 45” I just ordered, and a “MG” when I can afford one, only difference will be that I will most likely have the “MG” negatively weighted.
Another point, line shafting with a Wong gun does not affect accuracy as it does with production guns. However, it still slows you down reloading.
I guess the bottom line is whether you’re on the east coast, west coast, need a big gun, small gun, line shaft, free shaft, 1 band, 2 bands, 3 bands, or more, Daryl can make the perfect gun for you!
09-06-2003, 08:15 AM
Can I try your gun next week ;)
09-06-2003, 08:46 AM
Hey guys, I did not make any reference in my questions as to any particular brand of gun or how it may or may not be capable of performing. I'm not rying to start a "brand" debate here. My questions were specifically directed at a style of shooting (freeshaft), logistics, rigging, and practical application.
I understand the 3 band freeshaft idea in principle, but very long shots in really deep water (180ft or more) are not a high % shot. These long shots will usually result in poor shot angle, and or, less than optimal shot placement. Poor angle and shot placement on a big fish will usually result in frequent "shaft tear outs". Add excessive depth to this, and you have serious issues to deal with.
The most effective way to stop a big fish with a freeshaft is to stick the shaft in the fish in a manner that will best impede his ability to swim or fight back. When freeshafting big fish you are really hoping for one of two things to happen after you hit the fish with shaft.
1) You stone him!
2) He immediatly rocks up!
Either way, you now have a very good chance of getting the fish.
Long shots with poor shot placement greatly reduce the chances of either #1 or #2 occuring. No matter how accurate a gun is, it is only as accurate as the person shooting it. There is no right or wrong in this debate, it simply boils down to matching the right equipment to the demands of that particular dive.
As we spread the "art of freeshafting" out to other areas of Florida, as well as the rest of the world, it is important to make sure that everyone reading about this new style of spearfishing, understand that there can be just as many "sub styles" to freeshafting as there are different styles of lineshafting. These different styles have evolved due to different laws, fish varieties, and diverse waters around the world. There is simply no "one gun" that is going to fill all these needs.
This thread is a perfect example of what is right about Spearboard. This exchange of information from experienced shooters is what the new or lesser experienced spearfisherman need and want to hear. There has never been a "mass media" availability of this type of information (other than a few books) before Spearboard came along.
Even though I manufacture and distribute spearguns, I do not try to sell or promote our products in my posts. However, I will respond to specific questions from members pertaining to a particular product. I prefer it this way because the message or information contained in a thread may be lost if there is selling or advertising contained in a post. The post will also lose it's objectivity. I much prefer to let customer feedback, positive or negative, be the focus.
I have quite a bit of spearfishing experience in practical application as well as speargun building and rigging. However, my experience has been restricted to the guns that I build and the area I gained my experience in. I have limited knowledge about multiple band spearguns and the waters they are used in.
Because of this, I will sometimes ask a question just as any other member would. I'm not tying to start a heated debate, I'm just trying to gain knowledge. Isn't that the primary function of Spearboard? IMHO, it is the diversity of Spearboards members that make it useful and strong. Experience, knowledge, technique, and technology are usesless if you do not share it.
Spearboard has given spearfisherman a great voice, lets try to keep it singing "on key".
09-06-2003, 10:33 AM
Hey I applaud spear one and chad for their comments. they are obviously correct in each of their comments. A lot of shooters here can excahnge ideas and mutually learn from each other in the process. There should be no brand debate. Daryl wong is a good friend and I love his guns, however, I think chad is more equiped to answer issues about the middle ground type hunting as is spearone due to his knowledge of his product. It is threads like this where I am in tune to other experienced shooters that I learn the most. I want to clarify that I may have come accross as a brash person but I am not better than anyone and I dont think anyone is better than me. Just a healthy competitive spirit. However, i am not going to sit here and argue with spearone who has daily experience with his product s and knows its strtengths and weaknesses better than anyone since it is his product and I do like many of the things the ss guns have. I also would not argue about the type of hunting in the middle grounds with chad since i know the guy by reputation and after 25 years out there he must know the fish by name. I will never argue with anyone that has more experience than I do on a particular subject. I simply try to learn from them in order to become better.
Screenname, I will certainly try to make it but would like to go with someone who knows the area as I have no local knowledge. I am not interested in beating anyone, I am interested in competing for sure but that does not mean I am out to prove I am better or that my guns are better than anyone else's . I will tell you pure and simple what my father and grandfather taught me about spearfishing....... Sometimes its the indian and not the arrow that leads to success. But on any given day, anyone can beat anyone and if you dont know that by now, then this would be the wrong conversation to have. I have been in tournaments where I thought I would win hands down only to have someone at the last minute show up with a monster fish. It happens as this sport is very much, knowledge, experience, and lots of LUCK!!!! However, with that said, I am defitnitely going to try to make it and if you have a place for me in your boat I am in. I am sure I will learn a lot from you guys because the hunting you do is so different than what I do. I see it as an opportunity to get better and learn a new way of catching fish. I am usually happy with two or three fish when I hunt because thats all i am going to see on a given day. I cant imagine loading, shooting, string, reload and shoot another fish and so on and so on. That would be amazing to me and I am sure you guys can teach me quite a bit. So my real interest would be to meet other experienced hunter and learn the way you guys do it over there. Just like you have an open invitation to dive with me in miami where you wont need to freeshaft because you will be looking at very long shots most of the time. The need to reload quickly is also a mute point here so I am sure that would be something good for you as your stalking techniqes will be immensely improved. I am not looking to start any debates whatsoever. I think my comments about you guys on the above pretty much clearly shows my intentions are to establish comraderie and experience. The one thing you will see in me is that I am very very experienced, I am an excellent shooter at any range and I stalk fish with the best of them. Other than that, I am open to anything I can learn in order to make myself better.
I think this board opens the door for some real insight and I love it including those I disagree with. However, I will always show respect for each and everyone here. If i started on the wrong foot which I know I did, I apologize to each and everyone i may have offended. That is not my nature. I am at least man enough to post this where all of you can see it and decide for yourselves whether I am the same person who originally posted here. Thanks to all of you for your insights into this great board.
09-06-2003, 10:52 AM
Even though we disagree on a few shooting styles I respect your opinions, you've paid your dues in developing them.
Here's an ironic note taken from the same e-mail from Daryl Wong as my first quotes:
"Personally we try to shoot the fish as close as possible and I rarely take a shot more than ten feet away. My rule of thumb is to try and shoot within two shafts lengths, which is about 10-12 ft. Our fish here in Hawaii aren't that big, so the farther away, the smaller the fish looks. I wish they were bigger like the ones you target in Florida."
"One day I'll have to get up to Florida and see the style of diving you guys do. All you have to do is check out the gun and dial in the aiming and let those shafts fly! Now you have a goal for your boat to be finished to test the MG on the Middle Grounds!" Aloha, Daryl.
Pretty funny right? Daryl agrees with your style even though he's a freediver, rather than many of my alternative styles. Namely the: *Take the longshot, hit 'em, hole 'em up and dig 'em out style. Or the: *Hit 'em with a LS, hit 'em again, & take 'em in the open style. Or my favorite the: *Hit 'em with a LS & roll 'em over style! It all comes down to how accurate I am with my freeshaft gun and for me that puts the real sizzle in the sport, on scuba or freediving! (One added note is that I believe in pursuing every fish until every effort to retrieve it has been exhausted, including subsequent dives and my buddies and I practice proper dive planning for those possibilities.)
Ditto that about Spearboard being a great media!
09-06-2003, 11:07 AM
Oh yeah John,
Sure you can try it out! I may not shoot it in the Southern Open unless I can get it dialed in by then.
The boat goes in on Monday for the new 500HP Yanmar, so get ready for that Grounds run, it'll be ready around the end of the month!
You were just s*** faced that weekend when you first posted, right?
09-06-2003, 11:18 AM
Spear One & JC, those are really good post and some excellent points. I think all of us are passionate about spear fishing and are good at what we do, but always looking to learn and improve. One of the many great things we can do on Spearboard.
I post about Wong guns because I love them and to share why with other divers, no other reason. I don’t know, but I assume others who post about Wong’s guns often, do so for the same reason.
JC, I do disagree with you on one point. I feel there is a need for speed and free shafting on the East coast. You seem more like a very patient hunter looking for that prize fish. I probably hunt more like Spear One, speed being of importance, even though I am an East coast diver. We probably get this trait from years of commercial hunting. Sometimes I wish I could be more patient and do your style of hunting.
Anyways, we all need this weather to clear, so we can get out and shoot some fish with our favorite guns. Maybe we’ll be able to post some new fish pictures.
09-06-2003, 11:21 AM
Thats what makes this board a great place. Most others sports are recognized by the media but spearfishing is still somewhat of an underground sport were good info is scarse unless you are willing to pay for it and even then the issues covered are far from complete. Dive shops are places were one would expect to get info but more often then not, there is little to be gained by the staff that caters to tourists rather than the serious shooter. Thats not to say there aren't some great shops but they are few and far between. Spearfishermen and spearfisherwomen for that matter, often have to learn the hard way. Spearboard is a place were divers can come and pick something up from other divers that will help them be alittle safer and have more fun on the water (better fill the stringer).:D do some kidding and share some stories with others that enjoy the sea (and laugh like hell whenever I read one of Hec's adventures)
That being said I have a question for the members that have more experince with scuba freeshaft hunting. After shooting a fish and getting your hands on it if what is the best order to proceed in? string then brain then remove shaft and reload
or brain then string then remove shaft.
it seems like either order migth have its pros and cons, I am just wondering what you guys recommend? Say its a medium to large size fish. ID think it would be an advantadge to string the fish after he in dead for sure before opening up the stringer but then again once on the stringer they become easier to controll.
09-06-2003, 11:23 AM
09-06-2003, 11:29 AM
Now this is the kind of thread I like!
09-06-2003, 12:39 PM
It's relative to the size of the fish and the threat of it getting loose. If you stoned them it doesn't matter!
A good friend of mine shoots small hogs and grabs them by the jaw and piths them with the spear point, then clips them to a fish float and sends 'em to the surface. Little fear of loss especially with a good shot.
Most medium sized fish we frequently string first, sometimes shooting and stringing several fish, and then sticking them all at once with a stiletto.
With big green fish I don't usually dare try to string first, it's generally a more awkward motion than slipping one hand down for a knife and sticking the fish. Then you can take your time with your stringer. Sometimes with AJs or cobia, I'll pull the knife before getting to them.
Another thought...kill shoot 'em with a second shaft!
09-06-2003, 02:40 PM
Hey JC, no offense taken. This board seems to have it's own unique ability to "self regulate". We always have room for shooters with your level of expertise. Keep sharing your knowledge and obversations. Welcome aboard!
09-06-2003, 07:07 PM
THANK YOU SPEAR ONE , CHAD, DILIGAF AND OTHERS I have found that even though we sometimes see things differently, we tend to try to help each other and that is the kind of thing that is truly remarkable. Diligaf, you are right in the sense that now I only look for trophy fish whereas when I worked at it with my father, I had to shoot and get everything in sight or hear my dad tell me how much $#$$ he was loosing because of me.
CHAD. you are also right, I guess im not the nicest guy when im SH(^*&^%Tfaced@!!!!!!
I thank all of you for the opportunity to post my comments and your remarks are very helpful to me as well. This is a helluva sport we love and are so passionate about. You never ever stop learning and the day you do.......... Its time to stop.
I cant wait to get to your coast and meet you guys and put faces to the names. The guys are extremely knowledgable and the experience of some of you is quite obvious. So I read all the posts and try to not get sht faced anymore!!!
Chad, you may notice the gun shoots a little high at first but it will work as soon as you adjust to it, usually 5 to 10 shots and youre dialed in. I love the gun but mine is a MAHI which is very similar.
Spearone, thank you for your compliment again, you are a cool guy and show a lot of class.
09-06-2003, 07:15 PM
Rogers on the brotherhood. Lookin' forward to shootin' with ya some day. Standin By!
09-06-2003, 09:07 PM
Chad, I would get all worked up too and shoot from the hip if you mention the name Nivio in this thread. I would have gone beserk too and posted all kinds of s**t that might've seemed like I was hammered.
Ask JC what he thinks about Nivito or the political correct, RJVelozo?
C'mon J, stir it up a bit. Hehehehehe!
09-06-2003, 09:08 PM
Anyway, great thread. Sorry for the faux pas of posting earlier.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aguaji
Ask JC what he thinks about Nivito or the political correct, RJVelozo?
To Mr. Aguaji a.k.a "The Pot Stirrer"
I've been referred to or labeled many terms, but never "political correct". Congrats!
09-07-2003, 09:26 AM
Nothing personal RJ, just having some fun. Don't think too much. Tranquilo!
09-08-2003, 07:54 PM
Hey, spearguns are almost like rifles. You try different ones in various calibers and pick the one you can hit the best with depending on the game you're hunting. .My sister hunts with a .243 and the guys use a 30-06 in the U.P.. She brings home the meat, just like us. Her shot placement has to be a little better, but, she has less recoil. You don't want too big a gun that you can't handle or hit with. I fired 3 rounds wearing a t-shirt, my brother-in-laws .458 for polar bear. I put it back down and fired my 30-06. It felt like a .22 cal. after firing the cannon. You also don't want a pea shooter that can't take down what you're hunting. So, try different guns with different size and number of bands. Try a friends, rent one. Go with what works for you!!!!! Hey, Platapus, can load that long gun you won at the SPO? Have you cut it down a little or grown longer arms?
09-09-2003, 11:24 AM
sharpshooter, thats an interesting comment. I have several production guns like Rob Allen, Riffe etc.. I also have handmade ones from Bill Kitto, Steve Alexander and Dr. Daryl Wong. I use all my guns but when I swtich back and forth, it tends to make me loose accuracy because of all the switching. I am now solidly using my Daryl Wong gun. The thing about it is I can pwer down when I need to and yet get the long shots when I need them. That is my take on it. However, I do agree that different guns are needed for different situations.
09-09-2003, 12:06 PM
I am still earning my feathers here, but I will weigh in a little on this thread. A while ago, someone wrote that it is not the arrow but the hunter. Truer words have never been spoken. I have enjoyed reading this post and have even been to the Wong website, but then I had to take a step back and think of any fish I have ever missed for having the wrong gun. I couldn't think of a single one. My point here is that newbies will read this and think that they MUST get a new gun to keep up with everyone else. NOT THE CASE! I'd love to shoot a WONG some day, but I have never lost/missed a big fish with the guns I have. IMHO, my spearing took a turn when I stopped worrying about guns so much and started to focus on precise rigging and technique. Just a quick thought.
09-09-2003, 01:51 PM
Excellent comment Rabbideath. I was the one making the comment that sometimes its not the arrow but the indian and you could not be more correct in your thoughts.
I sincerely believe that you give a great hunter a crappy gun and he will catch fish, yet give a newbie or a shooter who cant stalk the best gun in the history of spearguns and I assure you the other guy will do better.
Guns like anything are tools that we all use and have personal preferences that can not be settled as long as there ar4e different types of guns out there.
"SOMETIMES ITS NOT THE ARROW BUT THE INDIAN"
I think that comment of mine is about as true as true gets when it comes to spearfishing. Look at the examples of SPEARONES guns, surgical shooting, one band, kill placement, speed and lots of other pluses. Now look at the tree trunk types, long shots, slower reloads, no freeshafting etc... The INDIAN must pick his arrow but no matter how good the arrow, the INDIAN is the one who shoots it and if hes a bad shot, well....you get the point.
09-09-2003, 02:44 PM
Rogers on that RabiDeath
09-09-2003, 03:29 PM
I can think of plenty of times where I did not get a fish because I had the wrong gun. Either tried and missed or knew it was hopeless and passed.
Sometimes, usually on big wrecks, I agonize over which gun to take down, a 2 or 3 freeshaft gun or a linegun with reel? I've even developed a technique of taking one of each when figuring I won't travel much, and usually stash the unneeded gun on top of the wreck for a while. It's a lot to handle, sometimes it's too much to deal with. (I do this less now that AJ and cobia have only a single fish limit.
Yeah, I've got a line on the side of a freeshaft gun system, but after firing I like a linegun to float up with the line, and also like a freeshaft gun to sink after the shot, unless freediving. And it's often too slow to change over even the fastest systems.
No one rig can do it all better than separate rigs in my opinion.
Also the wrong size of gun has caused loss of a fish. Too short means no range and stopping power, or in poor visibilty it's to hard to use a big gun.
I don't think brand of guns will make as much of a difference as the rig style or size, but then I have yet to try many of the new custom guns. I have certainly seen some differences in the line rigs more than the freeshaft guns.
I look forward to doing that soon, probably Friday for the MGS.
09-09-2003, 04:31 PM
What is the purpose of a reel on a line gun if you are scuba diving? Why would you want to deploy more line after the shaft has hit the fish? Are you afraid of the fish and want to get it as far away as possible?
Isn't it dangerous for you or the other divers down with you to have a 50lb AJ or Cobia running around with 75ft of line out? How do you control the fish with 30, 40, 50ft. or more line out?
Do you reel in all the line before grabbing the shaft and stringing the fish, or do you just pull the fish to you and let the line go wherever it goes risking entanglement? Do you just drag the fish to the surface to avoid all the above problems?
09-09-2003, 05:07 PM
Many spearfishers such as Chad, scuba and freedive. It is often easier to put a reel on your line gun so that it may serve a dual purpose(scuba & freediving). When scuba diving you simply set the drag tight to avoid the problems you mentioned. When using a high powered gun, such as a Wong, the reel can give you a little extra line/range.
09-09-2003, 05:58 PM
I basicvally only use a reel when freediving since it allows you to play the fish from the surface, especially wahoo and the likes. However, I have never tried a reel on scuba since two wraps on the gun is more than enough and that still poses a tangling threat. I actually shoot, release the gun and book directly to the fish when scuba diving, I hate to give him any line play since he can tear off if big enough. I guess this particular topic has lots of angles.
CHAD, i know what its like on the wrecks man, sometimes you just dont know what rig is better. For the last few years, i am only looking for big fish so my options are easy now. Lots of power, 3 or 4 bands and one fish maybe two at most on a dive. The reel part I counter by just using two wraps. Now, freediving, thats another story. I also use a carter lift bag with a co2 cartridge when on a deep wreck and want to get rid of the fish in a hurry and have the boat deal with him at the surface.
Spearone, question...... what happens when you freeshaft a big big fish in open water? how do you get him if he is strong enough to take off with the shaft when not stoned??? This freeshaft part is very interesting to me
09-09-2003, 06:18 PM
Hi Spear One,
I used reel a lot (scuba) , so here is why I like them, of course specific to my hunting needs and ground.
First let's assume that we take the best possible means to shoot as accurately as possible or stoned shots, but that is not always possible on a far away fish and when it is swimming fast.
For me reel offers the following advantage :
"WHEN I AM NOT USING THE CARTER PARACHUTE FLOAT "
01. Up to extra 7-10 seconds of time ( depending on fish size and fatality on the wound ) to swim back to a rock to grab and not being sucked down beyond my max depth. When I hunt for Dog Tooth Tuna, I hoover mid water at anything from 100-150 feet in water depth of 180-200+ feet. I hover ahead of the current and away from the rock, sometimes visibility permitting sometime I go really far to the blue, depending on where I spot the fish. Unlike the oil rigs, I am at times much furher away from possible grab points. It is not the best solution but been proven to be next best to a float if the Tuna :
AA. ...heads for the depth of the sea bed which is not exceeding my reel capacity with the added depth where I am at. In this case the Tuna will touch the bottom and swim parralel to the sea bed if not making knots on some rocks. If its swims parallel to sea bed, I can in most cases maintain my max limit of 160 feet while fighting it with my fins.
BB....is hit in a solid spot for holding my Slip Tip but still powerfully swimming away. Sometime if you can tug the reel line with enough brute force, it might make a slight turn or arc, thus decreasing the distance between me and the Tuna and will not take much line off my reel anymore.
CC.......somehow the Tuna make knots of the reel line on the rock. This is a happy moment for me because I stopped getting dragged and if the Slip Tip hit a hard spot, the tuna will die trying to break free.., no tear off....easy landing, using a rock like a super big float.
One case I found the reel also useful. My friend shot a 37kg/81# Tuna. I was with him because on the earlier dive I already lost my gun+reel to a bigger one. So I became his caddy and spotter. The moment the reel payed out my friend hold the reel line and get dragged away. I held his gun, free spool the reel and inflate an attached 2 of 7 liters utility floats (surface marker type ) on the gun. Before this dive, same dive as when my gun was lost, he already landed a similiar size tuna and he nearly threw his gun away because the roller coaster was too much but he was lucky because the bottom depth was only 180 feet ( See Case AA ). So before this dive I rigged him the two sausage floats. Since my friend was dragged on the reel line buying time, I got more than 20 seconds to inflate the two floats. When the float was inflated, it slowly head for the surface, it was deep at 130 feet when I deployed it. Then I grabbed the reel line behind my friend, again buying time for the gun and the 2 floats to make its way to the surface for full blown inflation. During the process, we were both dragged horizontaly by the tuna but we were not afraid because there were two of us...:D. By the time the float already hit the surface, we got extra braking effect of 30 pounds from them plus ourselves. Later, I pulled as hard as possible on the gun/float and my friend on the fish, while I was holding my friends tank, here we got the full braking effect of the float. Basically it allows us to buy time and let the fish tire.
The other proven use of a reel in water depth within our max limit, is : less damage on the exit wound. For slim, soft flesh and fast initial burst speed type of fish like the Spanish Mackerel, reel is good. Spanish Mackerel sometime shoots the surface when shot. I had one, shot at 70 feet, it raced all the way to the surface, made one jump and swim to the depth again. Without a reel, either the hunter get air embolism, loose the fish or loose the gun. I can do all sort of swimming style to prevent myself from being dragged to the depth but I have yet to learn the best style on how to avoid being dragged to the surface, other than holding on a rock and swim head down.
Since I dive with only a few divers and we are usually separated as far away as possible ( we don't like being followed or to follow ), I have not yet come across my reel line sweeping another diver unexpectedly. It might happen one day, but if he/they spot my reel line coming to them, they will take it and roller coaster along. .... :D . If it entangle them from behind....hhmmmm...:rolleyes:, hope not.
"WHEN I AM USING A CARTER FLOAT WITH A REEL"
The Carter float I have was designed to be better in its use with a reel. Since it is a float that is inflated at depth, without a reel I will have to use it in breakaway mode. At only 20 liters capacity and if used on a breakaway mode, even a 30kg/66# tuna might dissapear along with it. The reel allows me to apply myself as the additional extra drag.
That's about all the benefit of a reel for me....;)
09-10-2003, 09:09 AM
There an exception for every rule. I freedive almost exclusively, so my only changes come with how I rig my buoys, my spears, or my reels. I can see why you would need different gun in the situation to which you referred. I still feel that, in the blue, the most important thing is having your buoys rigged correctly, your accuracy down pat, and your knowledge of your prey's vulnerabilies.
As to Pappa Iya's reply, I never use a reel on big bluewater fish. I am all about breakaways or directly attaching the buoy to my railgun. I shoot, let go, and sometimes see my buoy's passing me on my ascent! My reel is just for freediving ground fish. Reels are great for playing in a poorly shot fish.
09-10-2003, 10:22 AM
You asked, "Why would you want to deploy more line after the shaft has hit the fish? Are you afraid of the fish and want to get it as far away as possible?" "Isn't it dangerous for you or the other divers down with you to have a 50lb AJ or Cobia running around with 75ft of line out?" "Do you reel in all the line before grabbing the shaft and stringing the fish, or do you just pull the fish to you and let the line go wherever it goes risking entanglement? Do you just drag the fish to the surface to avoid all the above problems?"
Aboslutely the opposite to all of the above!
You incorrectly assume reels are only for letting out line after spearing a fish.
On scuba one technique I have used effectively for years is to swim like mad to the fish after the shot, never releasing any line at all from the reel, rather taking up the line as I go, eliminating the entanglement factor, and not stressing the spear's bite in the fish.
The 6" to 10" of line left when I cross to the spear can't wrap me or anybody up. Non-detachable spears allow control of the fishes body direction and make it easier to knife it in the head.
The best defense can be a strong offense!
(Best result to date on a non-stoned fish: a 95 lbs AJ shot strung and secured inside of 2 minutes.)
The equipment used in the above technique: A 52" Austrailian Seahornet, about 100 ft of 1000# Kevlar line on an old R1 Riffes Reel, racheting lock model with no drag.
I don't think a really good reel for scuba has ever been built to date; but this one allows my style of manhandling big fish and stopping them from spooling into a wreck or rig. If it doesn't fall apart in the near future at least.
09-10-2003, 10:32 AM
Chad, excellent answer. I asked those questions more for the benefit of others who are reading this thread but might be hesitant to ask. There can be a lot of misunderstanding about the use of reels. Those questions were the ones I am asked most often in e-mails and seminars. I think you guys cleared it up pretty well. Thanks!
09-10-2003, 05:41 PM
JC....why would you use a reel for wahoo and the likes? I personally would neve4r use my reelgun when hunting tuna/hoo's but I love it on snapper.
09-10-2003, 06:18 PM
WELL, as you know if freediving, and you shoot a tuna or wahoo they can sound straight down and if youre not using a breakaway system with floats the reel allows you to play the fish at the surface. You are correct, there is little other use unless youre looking for something smaller and are not on a float. It has happened to me many times where I just use the reel looking for smaller stuff and dont anticipate seeing a big wahoo so that is the only time the reel comes inot play, otherwise the breakaway system is all thats needed. thanks for pointing that out!
09-11-2003, 09:24 AM
just making sure there wasnt a better way of doing things.;)
09-11-2003, 12:44 PM
Actually, Chad gave a pretty good explanation about the reel on scuba and I see his point and it makes lots of sense. I personally swim like a madman to my fish and never play with the line. I then manhandle him and its over. However the reel idea seems fine.
09-15-2003, 11:57 PM
Most record fish speared around the oil rigs in the gulf were shot with JBL guns. As of only five or so years ago Riffe made a name here and people are converting. I was a sworn believer in the JBL and finally saw the light with my NoKiOi. I picked up the old JBL for a shallow (100ft) dive, took one shot and retired it (again). The diver that won the 2002 year long state competition shoots a JBL.
Chad, I ordered a Wong MG about a week ago and am already jonesing. You've dived the rigs and know how helpful and extra few feet of range can be. Those 60lb gags got use to the JBL range, a few lost it to the Riffe before wising up and now, yes, I'm going to unleash the MG on their unsuspecting a$$es.
09-16-2003, 11:13 AM
Mine will be here this week as well Stan...maybe we need to set up a de-virginizing trip for them...:D
09-16-2003, 03:32 PM
I'm down with that sickness. Let's go punish em with the splinter guns.
09-16-2003, 11:10 PM
Stan and Mike,
How are you guys rigging yours up? I will need a line rig for my next trips up your way, on scuba and freediving.
My MGS is just freeshaft so far. I shot 4 times at targets this weekend in skinny water with a single 5/8" band and double bands, but the visibilty was so crappy, about 12 to 15 feet and looked like egg drop soup. I could not see any drop in the shot even with just the single band . With both bands it burried about 6" into the bottom from 15 feet out.
We just bagged our intended deep dives today due to weather.
It looks like I have to shoot the gun cold turkey in the Southern Open this weekend.
09-17-2003, 01:08 PM
Chad, I am assuming that your gun is a rear handle and if this is correct, you will find lots of options for both scuba and freediving. When I first started shooting my Wong gun, I noticed I was a little high on my shots then I went to a longer shaft and problem resolved. I generally just see a spot on the fish about as big as a quarter and then shoot without thinking. The gun may have a little more recoil than my mid handle gun since you absorb it at the end of your gun. In this case, as you know your shots may be a little low. Anyway I havent told you anything you dont already know except that the rigging for freediving is ultimately going to be the deciding factor on how successful you will be with the larger pelagics. I hope you kick the crap out of the fish with your new toy and if you want some info on rigging, I have some from the best guys around. You might find some of the info helpful and you may at the same time have something better already. Just offering to see if you want it. Good luck!
09-17-2003, 04:13 PM
As always, I will be using 500# coated cable. From there I am not sure yet. Probably 3 wraps. The shafts are on their way from Rick in Florida and the gun went in the mail today. I will rig one shaft for scuba(one I can clip off to the rig) and another as a breakaway for freediving. I wont be using a reel on this gun b/c I have one on my cf hybrid. I will be using this gun primarily for the deeper rigs where a breakaway will be more appropriate in the house of monstrous aj's and the like. It will also be the backup/killshot gun in bluewater situations.
09-17-2003, 10:04 PM
Assuming that I can set it up like the riffe I'll rig it the same (three wraps of cable) on a "riding rig". Just like my buddies were using on your last rig dive. Blue water freediving I'll probably go with either 25' or 50' of bungie with a float. Afraid that a big tuna or mako would spool me with a reel.
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