SpearMax - First Blood! – Very Deep!

[SpearMax]

This is a story about First Blood! - on a Brand New Deep Technical Diving Wreck. It is also a story about extreme danger because you absolutely must not try to do this dive unless you have the technical dive training and equipment necessary.

You can easily kill yourself at these depths of 230 feet and with the possibilities of entanglement on this deep wreck.

But, before getting into my dive, let me honor the great guests who were on my dive boat. I went out on Sunday with Faye Swenson and her husband Matt who are visiting from Cape Cod, Massachusetts. Faye took second place in the women’s division at the Nationals last year which is where I met her. Here is a shot of Faye and Matt freediving near the Palm Beach Inlet along with a shot of Faye with her catch of a 13 pound yellow jack. Matt had a nice cobia taken from him by a bull shark on the Governor’s River Walk wrecks. Welcome to sharky Palm Beach Matt! It was great fun having them visit for a nice day of spearfishing.

[SpearMax]

Now, to the first blood!

I did only one solo deep technical dive on scuba on Sunday to a brand new wreck just outside the Palm Beach Inlet. But, it was one heck of a dive. Palm Beach County dropped the ship on Friday morning and I was the first to score a spearfishing catch on that wreck. Here is my seven pound hogfish.

[SpearMax]

Unfortunately, my underwater camera system failed, so you will have to use your creative imaginations to follow my story underwater with the aid of my computer download screenshots. I have been volunteer video surveying the area for the County for many months now. However, I do have photos of that wreck before it was sunk. Here is the tug towing it, the bow of the Korimu at anchor, a side shot and the marker buoy.

[SpearMax]

Here are some close up shots.

According to the Palm Beach Post:

“Built in 1970 in the Netherlands, the ship was originally named Celtic Crusader. Its name was changed to Supremity, then to Korimu. The ship is intended primarily as a fishing reef because it sits below the 130-foot recreational diving depth limit. To improve the value of Celtic Crusader as a haven for fish, the fishing club attached FADs, or fish-attracting devices, to the bow and stern. They are made of heavy polypropylene lines attached to the ship and buoyed by foam-filled drums. The main line and smaller branch lines are expected to "fly" in the north-flowing Gulf Stream current, attracting bait fish and predators such as sailfish, dolphin and wahoo.”

When the contractor is ready to sink the ship, they pump seawater in to lower the level of the ship and pull the special plugs cut into the sides.

[SpearMax]

Here are some dive statistics from my Cochran Gemini wrist dive computer. I have highlighted a few key numbers with the red arrows.

[SpearMax]

Next, here is a series of depth profiles showing various “touch Points” where I placed my dive computer to take depth measurements. I was doing this to provide my great friends at Palm Beach County Carman Vare, Brock Stanaland and Janet Phipps as well as good buddy Tom Twyford at the West Palm Beach Fishing Club with accurate measurements of this addition to the artificial reef program.

[SpearMax]

You can see from the last one above that I was there at 214 feet stringing up my hogfish, turning on my shark shield, and reloading my gun for a few minutes. Here are the rest of the dive depth profiles:

[SpearMax]

The following are oxygen toxicity measurements that show this dive is pushing the safety envelope on the primary gas which was air. You can see my switch to 80% oxygen at 30 feet which usually cuts my remaining deco in half or more. :D

I realize that going above 1.6 PO2 (partial pressure of Oxygen) on the bottom is risky. I usually target no greater than a PO2 of 1.5 on all my tech dives. Strenuous dives require an even lower target at 1.4 PO2. The danger here is the possibility of going into a convulsion from the toxicity of the partial pressure of the oxygen which comprises 21% of the air gas mix. The convulsion and the resulting drowning is one way deep divers die.
:eek:

Then, there is the drunken, mind-altering effects of nitrogen narcosis to deal with below 130 feet or so. Everyone is affected differently. Lucky for me, I am pretty good with nitrogen narcosis and am able to operate at those depths and retain most of my faculties. ;)

Gas consumption is much faster at these depths due to the increased atmmospheres of pressure. ou must control your breathing very well or you can run out of air very quickly. I came up with one third (1,000 psi) left in my 125 cubic foot low pressure steel tank. :(

Then, there is the enhanced danger of "the bends" from that depth which is why deep stops are required to allow the nitrogen bubble to release. My first stop was at 90 feet. When I arrived at 30 feet, I switched to 80% oxygen to purge my body of the nitrogen bends-causing bubbles faster. :p

Lastly, there are many entanglement possibilities on this wreck with lots of cables and wires hanging. I am sure there will be even more after the rod & reel fishers lose rigs with wire leaders, etc. :rolleyes:

[SpearMax]

Here are some profiles of ascent/descent, gas consumption, and water temperature. There are other things the Cochran Gemini technical diving computer tracks, but I will not bore you with them here. :sleep:

[SpearMax]

In conclusion, this is a very challenging and dangerous dive. The thrill is phenomenal and the experience is unforgettable (except for the effects of narcosis). If you are interested in doing it, go get the proper training and equipment. I don’t want to read about you in the obituary column or in a DAN dive accident report. The same day that the Korimu sank the following happened on the Spiegel Grove wreck at depths 100 feet shallower than the Korimu according to the Sun Sentinel:

“Three of the scuba divers squeezed their way though the silt-filled narrow hallways and doorways inside the sunken Navy ship off Key Largo on Friday, venturing about 135 feet down into a corner so deep, dark and tight that it killed them.

Key Largo Fire Rescue divers entered the Spiegel Grove and found the bodies inside a small room at the bottom and far end of the wreck just after 2 p.m. Friday. At least 57 diving deaths in the United States and Canada were reported to the Divers Alert Network in 2006, with a third of the dead identified as technical divers, according to data compiled by the network, a non-profit that promotes dive safety.”

[jfjf]

Nice report Tony. Maybe sometime we can dive that wreck together?

[SpearMax]

Nice report Tony. Maybe sometime we can dive that wreck together?
Good idea! ;)

[pop dog]

They should teach deep stops (rgbm right?) in basic or advanced cert course. Even from a seemingly shallow dive, deep stops make you feel like 100 bucks when you get out. I can remembe feeling like I just ran a marathon or something after a dive without using deep stops. I was basic certified a long time ago so they may be teaching this now, but if they aren't they oughtsta'

Nice dive report!

[SpearMax]

They should teach deep stops (rgbm right?) in basic or advanced cert course. Even from a seemingly shallow dive, deep stops make you feel like 100 bucks when you get out. I can remembe feeling like I just ran a marathon or something after a dive without using deep stops. I was basic certified a long time ago so they may be teaching this now, but if they aren't they oughtsta'

Nice dive report!

Good point! :yup:

My friend Dr. Bruce Weinke is the big advocate of deep stops. I use them extensively on all dives. His best analogy is that the nitrogen bubble release is like cars getting on the Los Angeles Freeways. When they are released slowly (deeper) the traffic flow is much better and the clumping up effect is lessened. :toast:

[OceanEd]

Tony:

Can you PM me and explain how you are attaching the pole spear to your gun?

[jadairiii]

.... Lucky for me, I am pretty good with nitrogen narcosis and am able to operate at those depths and retain most of my faculties.....


:lol:


John

[dagodiver]

WOW.! Great stuff as always.

You can delete my post of course if you like but my question is why are you doing this on air.? I dont want to derail the thread it is just a simple question.




Dago.

[mhuskey]

I don't want to pile on here concerning your dive profile and choice of gas but you mention that on a working dive you should have a lower PPO. What is your definition of a working dive? This in my mind would be considered a working dive, mixing spearfishing and surveying of the wreck. There are a lot of people that are very interested in diving deeper than the rec. limits and unfortunately a lot of them get there training/information from reading the web.

Matt

[Nsearch]

I think pointing out that deep stops are good for certain dives and mixes but they should be used in caution because they can tack on additional deco. Bottom line is you better have the experience and training to tackle this type of diving.

[dagodiver]

On a side note I have a boat lined up and my gear is packed.!
Now lets have some good weather.! :cool:


Dago.

[GRIM REEFER]

You say get the proper training to do a dive like this, Good advice.

But I got to ask you, What kind of training agency taught you to do solo deep air dives to 230'? NONE

To think you can handle the narcosis? Your blowing smoke up your own ass.

Just because nothing happened YET, Doesn't mean you can handle it.

Like I said in the other post about the three deaths on the Grove, It was so unnecessary.
There has been six deaths in the last four weeks. All in over their heads.

I think its just ridiculous that people say, " Oh, But I'm not trimix certified"
And then go and do some insane dive on air. :confused:

I'm not piling on, I just thing it's a little irresponsible to post suff like this



The following are oxygen toxicity measurements that show this dive is pushing the safety envelope on the primary gas which was air. You can see my switch to 80% oxygen at 30 feet which usually cuts my remaining deco in half or more.

I realize that going above 1.6 PO2 (partial pressure of Oxygen) on the bottom is risky. I usually target no greater than a PO2 of 1.5 on all my tech dives. Strenuous dives require an even lower target at 1.4 PO2. The danger here is the possibility of going into a convulsion from the toxicity of the partial pressure of the oxygen which comprises 21% of the air gas mix. The convulsion and the resulting drowning is one way deep divers die.


Then, there is the drunken, mind-altering effects of nitrogen narcosis to deal with below 130 feet or so. Everyone is affected differently. Lucky for me, I am pretty good with nitrogen narcosis and am able to operate at those depths and retain most of my faculties.

Gas consumption is much faster at these depths due to the increased atmmospheres of pressure. ou must control your breathing very well or you can run out of air very quickly. I came up with one third (1,000 psi) left in my 125 cubic foot low pressure steel tank.

Then, there is the enhanced danger of "the bends" from that depth which is why deep stops are required to allow the nitrogen bubble to release. My first stop was at 90 feet. When I arrived at 30 feet, I switched to 80% oxygen to purge my body of the nitrogen bends-causing bubbles faster.

Lastly, there are many entanglement possibilities on this wreck with lots of cables and wires hanging. I am sure there will be even more after the rod & reel fishers lose rigs with wire leaders, etc.


Dude, Be safe and get the proper training or don't do it.

Shane

[pop dog]

I think pointing out that deep stops are good for certain dives and mixes but they should be used in caution because they can tack on additional deco. Bottom line is you better have the experience and training to tackle this type of diving.

Well the average joe should stay out of deco or only have 3~5 at 15 My only point was that the -basic- certs should incorporate it. as it eliminates nitrogen micro-bubble formation. People dont really need to go all crazy with it in class as its pretty easy to remember even if you're narc'd to stop at half you max depth for 1 and then half again for 1 and do your saftey 3 at 15.... I would teach it.

[monster slayer]

Damn,Tony that is the stuff of legends, and what makes a difference between men and gods . So many divers, so few that can actually get to that point.. Great story thank you for sharing..

[phreaticus]

I believe it's 8 deaths so far this year..
1- Jupiter, Hole in the Wall -? (haven't seen the final ruling)
3 -Spiegel Grove - diving beyond cert/training level/ignoring training standard
safety protocols
1- Catfish Hotel Sink- diving beyond cert/training level (OW diver in overhead)
1-Allen Millpond Spring - human error/task distraction (certified cave diver,lost track of time vs.gas status)
1-Jackson Blue Spring - diving beyond cert./training level (Adv. OW diver in
overhead)
1-Madison Blue Spring - heart attack (certified cave diver)

The "good on air" deal doesn't fly (I used to have the same attitude), the technology is there (trimix) to make a dive like this much safer, not using it is a unnecessary hazzard that can be avoided. You're much safer, clearer, and productive on mix. The Rouse's deaths on the U-WHO ("The Last Dive") are a classic example...they couldn't afford the helium that month to fill their tanks, went anyway, both died horrible, avoidable deaths.
I'm kind of surprized the local reefing officials allow these practises as part of their protocols...but it sounds like a "good 'ole boy network" deal to me...not unusual.
Not trying to ruffle feathers or start a s..t storm...just advocating safety over cutting corners.

There will be more deaths, unfortunately this year..starting out badly.

[KEYSKILLER]

nice tony, looks rough out there. i still do wrecks up to 190 on air, even though i am trimix certified. :D

[aue-mike]

I believe it's 8 deaths so far this year..
1- Jupiter, Hole in the Wall -? (haven't seen the final ruling)
3 -Spiegel Grove - diving beyond cert/training level/ignoring training standard
safety protocols
1- Catfish Hotel Sink- diving beyond cert/training level (OW diver in overhead)
1-Allen Millpond Spring - human error/task distraction (certified cave diver,lost track of time vs.gas status)
1-Jackson Blue Spring - diving beyond cert./training level (Adv. OW diver in
overhead)
1-Madison Blue Spring - heart attack (certified cave diver)

There is also the LOWRANCE incident last month where a diver got entangled in his liftbag line when shot from the bottom and came directly to the surface. I knew this individual and he was definitely diving well beyond his capabilities. He has had several CFs, and was told by numerous experienced individuals that he really was not cut out for technical activities and should limit his diving. It was a shame he refused to heed others' advice. As bad as this sounds, his fatal incident was not surprising.

Be safe out there y'all.

[SpearMax]

I'm not piling on, I just thing it's a little irresponsible to post suff like this

Dude, Be safe and get the proper training or don't do it.

Shane

Shane, why do guys like you take on such a "know-it-all" cocky attitude when someone reports the good and the bad of their tech dives? Why don't you report every detail of your tech dives so people can learn? I always advocate proper training and equipment, but it is discouraging to potential tech dive posters when clowns like you come along and opine so negatively. :nono:

The intent behind my report was to share an interesting experience and impart some information that this stuff is not to be done by inexperienced, untrained people. And along comes you trying to start arguments because for example you do not believe me when I say narcosis does not affect me as much as it does other people. Hundered of deep dives on air have shown me what I can and cannot do. Who made you the arbiter of such personal perceptions or realities? :confused:

My advice to you is if you are going to criticize, please do it in a constructive way that does not offend or appear that you think you are omniscient in all things technical diving. You will get much further with that approach instead of trying to start a fight that you will not win in the long run. ;)

[Gruper Reeper]

I was wondering what you were doing out there ,I went by you on sun. afternoon. congrats on striking first blood on palm beaches newest wreck!

[GRIM REEFER]

Shane, why do guys like you take on such a "know-it-all" cocky attitude when someone reports the good and the bad of their tech dives? Why don't you report every detail of your tech dives so people can learn? I always advocate proper training and equipment, but it is discouraging to potential tech dive posters when clowns like you come along and opine so negatively. :nono:

The intent behind my report was to share an interesting experience and impart some information that this stuff is not to be done by inexperienced, untrained people. And along comes you trying to start arguments because for example you do not believe me when I say narcosis does not affect me as much as it does other people. Hundered of deep dives on air have shown me what I can and cannot do. Who made you the arbiter of such personal perceptions or realities? :confused:

My advice to you is if you are going to criticize, please do it in a constructive way that does not offend or appear that you think you are omniscient in all things technical diving. You will get much further with that approach instead of trying to start a fight that you will not win in the long run. ;)


Tony, I didn't mean to come across as to start a fight, It's not worth it.
And I don't give a shit who wins. I'm not in first grade anymore, And I'm not gonna call you names.

There is a lot I don't know, But there is much safer ways to do dives like the one you just did. That was the point I was trying to get across. To try to argue that I'm wrong about that and you'd be the one legged man in an ass kicking contest. Just a fact.

It's just that hearing about all this crap about people dying doing something that's supposed to be fun, Has me kinda upset. So don't take it personal.
I didn't mean for it to be.

As far as posting every detail about all the tech diving I do? They would probably be pretty boring. Looking at a bunch or stupid rocks in a cave is basically it.

So, If I sound like a dick, Or a know it all. Sorry
Just concerned. You can tell me to f#ck off if it makes you feel better.
I wont take it personal.

Shane

[SpearMax]

There is a lot I don't know, But there is much safer ways to do dives like the one you just did. That was the point I was trying to get across.

Shane, nothing personal with me. I was on air and had to momentarily touch the bottom as I clearly explained for the County. I clearly explained the risks so people who are not tech divers would realize why we are so concerned about these things. Hell, I know lots of recreational divers that exceed PO2 of 1.6 all the time and do not really assess the risk. One friend does the hole in the wall dive which has a max of 140 feet or so using a mix of 33%. He argues that he rarely goes to the bottom. But, I see him do so with holed up groupers. :rolleyes:

All diving tech or rec diving should be about risk assessment, but often it is not. That is the main message I am trying to get across with my charts and graphs. I even go as far as to put arrows and text on the graphs to show the risk assessment points. It takes alot of time and work to do that. I do not do it to try and say I can do something better than someone else. I do it to illustrate what we as tech divers look at very closely. I would be very happy if tech diving risk assessment were to find its way into the mental paradigms of more recreation spearfishermen and women. Now, that would be a good thing in my opinion. But, that's just my opinion. Others may disagree and that is OK. :cowboy:

[Mobile Diver]

While this is being discussed, I have a question. My understanding is that He is primarily used to prevent narcossis, which varies greatly from person to person. If you aren't bothered by narcossis, is there another reason to use mixed gas above 225fsw (1.6ppo)?

[phreaticus]

Saying you're not bothered by narcosis is like saying you can drive drunk...everythings great..until something hits the fan (you are impaired whether you think so or not) or you're not paying attention...and you, or somebody else...PAYS! (ask the guys in the Spiegel Grove...if you could!) They were at 135 in a silt out...whats the worst you have been in (general question to all)?
GEEEEzus..I thougt this thought process had gone the way of the Navy Dive Tables...
Ask yourself...when diving deep on air....what has gone wrong.....did you react correctly, or did you just get lucky...
THEN....ask yourself...can I do it again... and again....in different circumstances (it's NEVER the same!)...if you say you can you are either superhuman...or dillusional!
...AND...I'm not a rookie speaking out of reading a book or chanting some agency mantra...I have over 400 dives beyond 250 ft. on air...over 50 over 300, and two over 400 ( all beyond stupid, in the bad old deep air days).
There is a better way now...use it!

[GRIM REEFER]

Well Tony, I'm sure we can both agree that that is a nice hogfish :thumps:
And that wreck looks like a bad ass dive.

Some of my best friends and I get into pretty heated arguments about tech diving. But we're still friends.

Thanks for the report, I'll shut up now ;)

Shane

[jfjf]

I have over 400 dives beyond 250 ft. on air...over 50 over 300, and two over 400


In other words: "I'm an idiot and you should listen to me"? :D

[phreaticus]

...you obviously can't read an entire paragraph...
I SAID...the technology exists..use it!
Trimix was not availabble in 1978-1990....at least to us "underling", non-commercial/military types. Dale Sweet did the first deep trimix dive in DiePolder II in 1979, I was a guide there at the time, everyone else thought Dale was going to die..... except Sheck Exley (if you don't know who he was then you don't know a lot about the progression of technical diving,).
Little did we know that Dale was a pioneer in starting the evoulution to trimix on deep dives. 'm sure ther were others in other areas, but it was a very clandestine, forbidden activity at the time...there was no cross-polination going on.
I've done nothing but mix beyond 130 ft. or so for the past 13 years...what gas are you breathing at those depths or beyond (if you are even doing dives like that)...and have you done body recoveries at 300 ft, 1200' back in a cave, in the last three years...if not, I think your comments are laughable.
Shooting a big fish does not make you a good diver.....coming back from years of diving, laying lots of line in new cave, or pulling portholes off the innards of a wreck does not make you a good diver...... learning from your experience, using it to do more in a safe manner, and educating yourself to new methods, and passing it on to others makes you a good diver (instructor or not...)
Diving is an invisible sport, we rarely know who is really competent, or who is advancing the sport, until it is well within the generally accepted venue of the general population of divers.
We all think we are exempt from the rules of chance...we are not...but we can reduce the odds by being smart, always improving our skills and knowledge, and admitting we are taking risks, but acting to minimize them....like diving mix vs. air deep?
If you are diving 1970's ideas, you are not doing this.
"Good on air" is a 1970's concept......
I repeat...there are better ways...use them?

[bubblejunkie]

Hey, Where is the popcorn and Coke smiley thingy? ;)

[Man-O-War]

Great job, nice hogfish!~

[SpearMax]

Sheck Exley (if you don't know who he was then you don't know a lot about the progression of technical diving,)

Of course, most of of us have heard of the legendery Sheck Exley. Have you seen him lately? :confused:

Here is what Wikipedia says about him and his "better ways." :eek:

Sheck Exley was the first in the world to log over 1,000 cave dives (at the age of 23): in over 29 years of cave diving, he made over 4,000. He is one of the few divers to survive a 400 ft dive on compressed air, despite the fact that nitrogen and oxygen become highly toxic at those depths.

He died at 45 on April 6, 1994 while attempting to descend to a depth of over 300 metres (1,000 feet) in a cenote called Zacaton in Mexico. His body was only recovered because he had hooked his arms in the descent line, perhaps to sort out gas issues. His wrist-mounted dive computer read a maximum depth of 879 feet.

[SpearMax]

Saying you're not bothered by narcosis is like saying you can drive drunk...everythings great..until something hits the fan (you are impaired whether you think so or not) or you're not paying attention...and you, or somebody else...PAYS! (ask the guys in the Spiegel Grove...if you could!) They were at 135 in a silt out...whats the worst you have been in (general question to all)?
GEEEEzus..I thougt this thought process had gone the way of the Navy Dive Tables...
Ask yourself...when diving deep on air....what has gone wrong.....did you react correctly, or did you just get lucky...
THEN....ask yourself...can I do it again... and again....in different circumstances (it's NEVER the same!)...if you say you can you are either superhuman...or dillusional!
...AND...I'm not a rookie speaking out of reading a book or chanting some agency mantra...I have over 400 dives beyond 250 ft. on air...over 50 over 300, and two over 400 ( all beyond stupid, in the bad old deep air days).
There is a better way now...use it!
Hmmm.....one simple statement that I think maybe I have pretty good (not claiming absolute here) tolerance of nitrogen narcosis leads to this outburst! Here is my original comment:

Then, there is the drunken, mind-altering effects of nitrogen narcosis to deal with below 130 feet or so. Everyone is affected differently. Lucky for me, I am pretty good with nitrogen narcosis and am able to operate at those depths and retain most of my faculties. ;)
Well...I have a simple solution for your doubts. :slap:

I shoot video on just about every one of my dives. You can come and look at the activities accomplished on those videos.:yawwn:

Here is what they say happens in narcosis:

The most dangerous aspects of narcosis are the loss of decision-making ability, loss of focus and impaired judgment and coordination. When more serious the diver may start to feel invulnerable, disregarding normal safe diving practices. Divers have been known to throw away their masks and accelerate their descent to excessive depths. Infamous anecdotes (apparently based on true stories) abound, including that of the diver who pulled out his regulator and offered it to the fish to share his air, or the man who stopped for a cigarette break at twenty metres.

Affected divers are often not even aware they are impaired. Other effects include vertigo, tingling and numbness of the lips, mouth and fingers, and extreme exhaustion. Affected divers may panic, sometimes remaining on the bottom, too exhausted to ascend. The syndrome may also cause exhilaration, giddiness, extreme anxiety, depression, or paranoia.

Though some divers seem to be able to cope with the symptoms and even claim to be less susceptible than others, tests have shown that all divers are affected by nitrogen narcosis. Even though it is possible that some divers can cope better than others because of acclimation, training, or special breathing techniques, the effects remain.

[SpearMax]

Well Tony, I'm sure we can both agree that that is a nice hogfish :thumps:
And that wreck looks like a bad ass dive.

Some of my best friends and I get into pretty heated arguments about tech diving. But we're still friends.

Thanks for the report, I'll shut up now ;)

Shane


Shane, we can always be friends and still disagree. It is only the sport of spearfishing.... :cowboy:

[f94gator]

Affected divers are often not even aware they are impaired.

I don't know - I have to go with the drunk-driving comparison. I've heard stories on here where people claimed they felt fine and their dive buddy told them later that they were acting retarded.
You very easily might not be affected, but I honestly don't think you can definitively say you're not.

[SpearMax]

I don't know - I have to go with the drunk-driving comparison. I've heard stories on here where people claimed they felt fine and their dive buddy told them later that they were acting retarded.
You very easily might not be affected, but I honestly don't think you can definitively say you're not.

I did not say I do not feel it. The narcosis is definitely there. But, my video shows me the reality that on any given deep dive I had pretty good reaction times, the ability to perform complex tasks, and diligent constant attention to my dive computer. My whole point in listing the effects of deep diving was to explain why I do what I do and to point out that the dangers affect everyone differently. Nobody is immune to these effects. Ergo, my point about how recreational divers need to pay attention to the PO2 when Nitrox diving to any given depth.

[phreaticus]

I knew this was going to be your retort,.....it's easy to answer....
Sheck was a true explorer....he lived to push the limits, he even said within a year or so of his death ( I dove with Sheck on multiple occaisions, and considered him one of the best PEOPLE, not just divers, I ever knew) that his career was winding down, and he hoped to do a couple more RECORD dives before he scaled it back or quit.......we are not talking about setting records, we are talking about diving SAFELY!
You, and I, and probably 99.999% of all people on this, or all diving forums are not (currently) explorers...we just enjoy diving, the environment (OW, cave, wreck...etc, etc).
You are missing the point entirely (which is not surprizing, in that Sheck and many others atempted to advance the safety of diving...have you read Safe Cave Diving, a Blueprint for Survival...it applies to all diving, thought-process wise) Is there a "Safe Deep Spearfishing" book available.....? Accident analysis is the key here, to avoid more accidents.
Maybe if there was an deep spearfishing expert to Exley's level, it would have been written by now....spearfishing has been around for centuries, cave diving has been around for 60 years or so.....why no educational texts about your level of spearfishing?
People die spearfishing every year, people die cave diving every year.....the process we use to eliminate the deaths is the important part.
You show all your profiles on your computer, espouse BASIC narcosis, PO2, Ox-tox situations... which I found kind of silly, as most nominally competent technical divers would find this redundant, but still say..."I can dive deep on air because I've adapted to it (Sheck was on an extremely experimental mix when he died, you are on AIR (been around a while), at 200-plus feet (again, 1970's technology), .....why do you not use the technology available (or, if you choose not to, promote it to those with less experience than you...Sheck did!). Have you not read "The Last Dive"...or are you in the "denial" crowd?
I repeat.... again..the technology exists...use it!
No fish (or cave, or wreck, or deep reef) is worth dying for..or encouraging others to die for.

[SpearMax]

Have you not read "The Last Dive"...or are you in the "denial" crowd? I repeat.... again..the technology exists...use it!
No fish (or cave, or wreck, or deep reef) is worth dying for..or encouraging others to die for.

Damm...I was trying to do the opposite - not encourage people to do this deep dive unless they had tech training. How did that point get missed?

Of course, I have that book "The Last Dive." But, I try to forget it in the blur of the narcosis from deep air. :D

Seriously, you better read the following about Trimix just released a few months ago! :sleep: ;)

By the way, I did hear good things about Sheck and do believe it was a tragedy. :(

J Appl Physiol (December 28, 2006). doi:10.1152/japplphysiol.01195.2006

Submitted on October 22, 2006
Accepted on December 18, 2006

Decompression sickness in the rat following a dive on trimix: recompression therapy with oxygen vs. heliox and oxygen

Ran Arieli1*, Polina Svidovsky1, and Amir Abramovich1

1 Israel Naval Medical Institute, Haifa, Israel

Trimix (a mixture of helium, nitrogen, and oxygen) has been used in deep diving to reduce the risk of HPNS (high pressure nervous syndrome) during compression and the time required for decompression at the end of the dive. There is no specific recompression treatment for decompression sickness (DCS) resulting from trimix diving. Our purpose was to validate a rat model of DCS on decompression from a trimix dive, and to compare recompression treatment with oxygen and heliox (helium-oxygen). Rats were exposed to trimix in a hyperbaric chamber and tested for DCS while walking in a rotating wheel. We first established the experimental model, and then studied the effect of hyperbaric treatment on DCS: either HBO (hyperbaric oxygen) (1 h, 280 kPa oxygen), or heliox-HBO (0.5 h, 405 kPa heliox 50%-50% followed by 0.5 h, 280 kPa oxygen). Exposure to trimix was conducted at 1110 kPa for 30 min. Death and most DCS symptoms occurred during the 30 min period of walking. In contrast to humans, no permanent disability was found in the rats. Rats with a body mass of 100-150 g suffered no DCS. The risk of DCS in rats weighing 200-350 g increased linearly with body mass. Twenty-four hours after decompression, death rate was 40% in the control animals and zero in those treated immediately with HBO. When treatment was delayed by 5 min, death rate was 25% and 20% with HBO and heliox, respectively.

[NOTANX]

i talked to matt and faye a few timed while they were down. seemed like good people. nice hog!

[jadairiii]

....There is no specific recompression treatment for decompression sickness (DCS) resulting from trimix diving......

I knew that all the stuff I read in Bennett and Elliotts' Physiology and Medicine of Diving was BS! Any other topics from Israel Naval Medical Institute, like taveling to the Moon is impossible?

John

[aue-mike]

There is no specific recompression treatment for decompression sickness (DCS) resulting from trimix diving.

Not really sure what you are trying to say with the posted abstract. But the above is true, just as it is true for air or any diving. Recompression treatment for trimix is the same as for air, nitrox, etc. -- a bent diver is a bent diver. Treatment is pursued until symptoms are alieviated. Therefore, due to differences in physiologies and severity of symptoms, there are no specific treatments for any specific patient - its case by case. They throw you in the can and conduct as many Table 6 treatments as it takes for you to improve or no change, and then you are done. Hardly an exact science.

Keep in mind the study purposely bent the rats to see how they respond to treatment.

[aue-mike]

While this is being discussed, I have a question. My understanding is that He is primarily used to prevent narcossis, which varies greatly from person to person. If you aren't bothered by narcossis, is there another reason to use mixed gas above 225fsw (1.6ppo)?

Well, not sure of the utility for most spearfishing activities, since many keep deep dives pretty short (~5-7 minutes), and therefore gas loading is fairly light. But to answer the question, for dives with a greater exposure, helium is easier/cleaner to decompress from than air. For example, if I did two 30-minute, 220-foot dives on air in one day (e.g., 2-3 hour surface interval), I or anyone else would be dead tired at the end of the day, not to mention the penalty on the second dive from such a "short" interval when using air. And the decompression schedules would be pretty silly. In contrast, we have done repetitive dives on helium where we use the exact same tables on both dives (i.e., no penalty), and at the end of the day we are bouncing off the walls with energy. Basically, you can offgas the remaining helium in your system faster than you could nitrogen (you have less overall nitrogen in your system as well since much of it is displaced by helium), therefore the cumulative effect is not as significant.

Then, with helium you can knock down the PO2, so you avoid potential O2 issues with repetitive dives over multiple days.

Plus, breathing resistance is not as significant with helium-based gases as air (i.e., easier to breath).

But, since this is a spearfishing forum, the basic overall advantage is improved performance and productivity. Regardless if you think you can handle narcosis, the empirical fact is you would be BETTER (and safer) on helium. That is, target selection, shot placement, reloading, avoiding getting tangled in your shooting line, handling task loading, etc. would all be better and faster when not impaired (whether you recognize it or not). So if you want to be more productive when deep, get helium. Many on this board have already realized that and gotten the appropriate training.

[capteider]

As a first hand witness to Tony's dive i have to say it was pretty nasty, and it left both faye and me with one crystal clear impression of Tony. Tony may seem meek and soft spoken but he' a hardcore spearo. on top of a moutain of gear, a scooter, crappy seas and camera he still took a long the speargun.

[capteider]

as to all this techical hoop-la ...freedive is cut and dry...hold breath, dive, surface ... repeat as needed.

[jfjf]

So if you want to be more productive when deep, get helium. Many on this board have already realized that and gotten the appropriate training.


So if I started using He, I won't have anymore incidents where I try to re-load my pole spear into my gun on the bottom ? :D

[SpearMax]

Not really sure what you are trying to say with the posted abstract. But the above is true, just as it is true for air or any diving. Recompression treatment for trimix is the same as for air, nitrox, etc. -- a bent diver is a bent diver. Treatment is pursued until symptoms are alieviated. Therefore, due to differences in physiologies and severity of symptoms, there are no specific treatments for any specific patient - its case by case. They throw you in the can and conduct as many Table 6 treatments as it takes for you to improve or no change, and then you are done. Hardly an exact science.

Keep in mind the study purposely bent the rats to see how they respond to treatment.


:yup: I agree Mike. I referenced the study as a bit of snide commentary and you are confirming that this aspect is "Hardly an exact science."

Those who are interested can look at the whole Isreali study if they like, not just the abstract I quoted. :cool:

[SpearMax]

So if I started using He, I won't have anymore incidents where I try to re-load my pole spear into my gun on the bottom ? :D

That happens on the boat, so how would it be better underwater? LOL :D :D

[dagodiver]

Great info everyone.!
I will say for sure that at the end of the day on HE you will feel alot better.
On a recent trip we were diving in the 250 range with 30minute bottom times and 4 hour SI's running the same profile for 3 days of diving.


Be safe.!


Dago.

[SpearMax]

Great info everyone.!
I will say for sure that at the end of the day on HE you will feel alot better.
On a recent trip we were diving in the 250 range with 30minute bottom times and 4 hour SI's running the same profile for 3 days of diving.
Be safe.!
Dago.

Hey Mike, FYI I have been getting Trimix certified for a few months now part time and will finish it off real soon. It has just not been at the top of my priority list. I am not doing dives that mandate it. But, I fully agree that it is a "better way." I also think air is OK for some people in some situations. That's my take on it. Thanks for the positive post! Tony :cowboy:

[fishkillapro]

Ok, so I read all of this...but have a question irrelevant to the last 3 pages. Spearmax, I know you said in this report that your camera broke. I read all of your threads with the play by play camera still shots, but why don't you post videos of your dives? Just wondering...

Cameron

[Mobile Diver]

Well, not sure of the utility for most spearfishing activities, since many keep deep dives pretty short (~5-7 minutes), and therefore gas loading is fairly light. But to answer the question, for dives with a greater exposure, helium is easier/cleaner to decompress from than air. For example, if I did two 30-minute, 220-foot dives on air in one day (e.g., 2-3 hour surface interval), I or anyone else would be dead tired at the end of the day, not to mention the penalty on the second dive from such a "short" interval when using air. And the decompression schedules would be pretty silly. In contrast, we have done repetitive dives on helium where we use the exact same tables on both dives (i.e., no penalty), and at the end of the day we are bouncing off the walls with energy. Basically, you can offgas the remaining helium in your system faster than you could nitrogen (you have less overall nitrogen in your system as well since much of it is displaced by helium), therefore the cumulative effect is not as significant.

Then, with helium you can knock down the PO2, so you avoid potential O2 issues with repetitive dives over multiple days.

Plus, breathing resistance is not as significant with helium-based gases as air (i.e., easier to breath).

But, since this is a spearfishing forum, the basic overall advantage is improved performance and productivity. Regardless if you think you can handle narcosis, the empirical fact is you would be BETTER (and safer) on helium. That is, target selection, shot placement, reloading, avoiding getting tangled in your shooting line, handling task loading, etc. would all be better and faster when not impaired (whether you recognize it or not). So if you want to be more productive when deep, get helium. Many on this board have already realized that and gotten the appropriate training.

Thanks much, Mike. I can always count on you for clear concise information. :thumps:

[kmoose]

I'm not a rookie speaking out of reading a book or chanting some agency mantra...I have over 400 dives beyond 250 ft. on air...over 50 over 300, and two over 400 ( all beyond stupid, in the bad old deep air days).
There is a better way now...use it!

So, why did you dance on the razor's edge? Why does Tony? You may fall to the excuse that there was no better science or that there was no other option......I'll give you that, but that alone does not negate the fact that you knew you where close to your limits at some point. Many of us CHOOSE to walk to that line and often dream of how far down the edge one may venture. Some, choose to find out, and in many cases, peril in the process.
What Tony accomplished was little more than a blip on the radar compared to your own self admitted ventures. So why is this so alarming? Because there is a more safe option?!!! A more safe option my friend would be to climb under your bed and have food and water ordered in.
Tony is walking down the edge of HIS razor. He is not running blind and he has been to his edge many times before, working farther down the blade. He has made every reasonable effort to warn and prescribe the dangers involved. In all reality I truely believe Tony is at far greater risk driving to work, but who is to say. It is Tony's cup of life and he should and will fill it to the extent he is comfortable with.
Sheck Exley found the edge of his razor at 879 fsw. Was he and idiot.....no, although I'm relitively sure more than a few believe that he was. Reguardless of the fact, his life cup was full to the point of overflowing and he died doing what he loved doing instead of watching a nurse increase his morphine drip and change his bed pan. Good for him, good for Tony and good for you as you have and may continue to strole out to the edge of your razor.

[SpearMax]

Ok, so I read all of this...but have a question irrelevant to the last 3 pages. Spearmax, I know you said in this report that your camera broke. I read all of your threads with the play by play camera still shots, but why don't you post videos of your dives? Just wondering...

Cameron

Maybe I will someday Cameron. But, editing an hour or so of video, converting it to windows media and then settingbitb up on my streaming server takes so long, I just have not had time. Once and a while I do it like those here:

[SpearMax]

Ok, so I read all of this...but have a question irrelevant to the last 3 pages. Spearmax, I know you said in this report that your camera broke. I read all of your threads with the play by play camera still shots, but why don't you post videos of your dives? Just wondering...

Cameron

Maybe I will do more someday Cameron. But, editing an hour or so of video down to 3-5 minutes, converting it to windows media and then setting it up on my streaming server takes so long, I just have not had time. Once in a while I do it, like this one here:

http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=27437

[SpearMax]

What Tony accomplished was little more than a blip on the radar compared to your own self admitted ventures. So why is this so alarming? Because there is a more safe option?!!! A more safe option my friend would be to climb under your bed and have food and water ordered in.


:yup: That's right Kenny, I would not normally go below that 218 foot level on air, but I pushed the limit as a calculated risk.

As mentioned above, I have been slowly working on my Trimix cert for a while now and when I get it, I have a great wreck at 270 in mind. I have mentioned this one to you and Dan MacMahon in the past and would love to get you guys over here to do that dive. Should be an interesting walk on "the razor's edge!" :cool:

[inletsurf]

sorry, I couldn't resist....

nah nah nah na-nah THUNDER!!

[kmoose]

sorry, I couldn't resist....

nah nah nah na-nah THUNDER!!
Yeah, in retrospect my response was a little philosophical for my redneck ass but I feel pretty strong about anyones desire to push their personal limits in an attempt to offset the ill effect brought on by everyday life.
Even at the funeral for the 3 that skidded over the edge last week down south, I bet it was said they were doing what they loved to do. I'm also sure none of them expected to cash out that day, but all in all I can think of alot worst ways to meet your maker.

[inletsurf]

Yeah, in retrospect my response was a little philosophical for my redneck ass but I feel pretty strong about anyones desire to push their personal limits in an attempt to offset the ill effect brought on by everyday life.
Even at the funeral for the 3 that skidded over the edge last week down south, I bet it was said they were doing what they loved to do. I'm also sure none of them expected to cash out that day, but all in all I can think of alot worst ways to meet your maker.

I absolutely agree with you Kenny, I am just losing my mind and humor these days and thought the album cover was a good thread prop for Spearmax. It wasn't my intent to make light of your post.

[jfjf]

Yeah, in retrospect my response was a little philosophical for my redneck ass but I feel pretty strong about anyones desire to push their personal limits in an attempt to offset the ill effect brought on by everyday life..

:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

[kmoose]

I absolutely agree with you Kenny, I am just losing my mind and humor these days and thought the album cover was a good thread prop for Spearmax. It wasn't my intent to make light of your post.
Steve, no intent was even considered, I was kind of suprised I wrote it to begin with. It is obvious the fact I was killing fish less than a week ago has got me all Froydian and sh*t. I bet a few fat gags would have you reading poetry by the end of the day. :D

[SpearMax]

I absolutely agree with you Kenny, I am just losing my mind and humor these days and thought the album cover was a good thread prop for Spearmax. It wasn't my intent to make light of your post.

:wtf: What the hell is this - the "kinder, gentler" and sensitive Inlet?

Steve, it was a great thread propper-upper! Thanks! Tony :moon:

[bubblejunkie]

So, why did you dance on the razor's edge? Why does Tony? You may fall to the excuse that there was no better science or that there was no other option......I'll give you that, but that alone does not negate the fact that you knew you where close to your limits at some point. Many of us CHOOSE to walk to that line and often dream of how far down the edge one may venture. Some, choose to find out, and in many cases, peril in the process.
What Tony accomplished was little more than a blip on the radar compared to your own self admitted ventures. So why is this so alarming? Because there is a more safe option?!!! A more safe option my friend would be to climb under your bed and have food and water ordered in.
Tony is walking down the edge of HIS razor. He is not running blind and he has been to his edge many times before, working farther down the blade. He has made every reasonable effort to warn and prescribe the dangers involved. In all reality I truely believe Tony is at far greater risk driving to work, but who is to say. It is Tony's cup of life and he should and will fill it to the extent he is comfortable with.
Sheck Exley found the edge of his razor at 879 fsw. Was he and idiot.....no, although I'm relitively sure more than a few believe that he was. Reguardless of the fact, his life cup was full to the point of overflowing and he died doing what he loved doing instead of watching a nurse increase his morphine drip and change his bed pan. Good for him, good for Tony and good for you as you have and may continue to strole out to the edge of your razor.



****ing A :thumps:

[SpearMax]

****ing A :thumps:

2:25 AM Jerry? This weather sucks! I could not find anyone to go spearing today! The razor's edge will have to wait. Guess I'll go to the Palm Beach boat show. :sleep:

[bubblejunkie]

Yea rough night, fell asleep around daylight. :p

I woulda went but it damn sure rough?

[Chum Bucket]

So, why did you dance on the razor's edge? Why does Tony? You may fall to the excuse that there was no better science or that there was no other option......I'll give you that, but that alone does not negate the fact that you knew you where close to your limits at some point. Many of us CHOOSE to walk to that line and often dream of how far down the edge one may venture. Some, choose to find out, and in many cases, peril in the process.
What Tony accomplished was little more than a blip on the radar compared to your own self admitted ventures. So why is this so alarming? Because there is a more safe option?!!! A more safe option my friend would be to climb under your bed and have food and water ordered in.
Tony is walking down the edge of HIS razor. He is not running blind and he has been to his edge many times before, working farther down the blade. He has made every reasonable effort to warn and prescribe the dangers involved. In all reality I truely believe Tony is at far greater risk driving to work, but who is to say. It is Tony's cup of life and he should and will fill it to the extent he is comfortable with.
Sheck Exley found the edge of his razor at 879 fsw. Was he and idiot.....no, although I'm relitively sure more than a few believe that he was. Reguardless of the fact, his life cup was full to the point of overflowing and he died doing what he loved doing instead of watching a nurse increase his morphine drip and change his bed pan. Good for him, good for Tony and good for you as you have and may continue to strole out to the edge of your razor.

Damn, that's good stuff. I might have to print that out and tape it to the cover of my log book!

For the record, I love reading Tony's reports, especially with the accompaning computer download pages w/ bar graphs. It's like going along for the dive especially when provided with the frame by frame action shots.

I am not a trained deep diver and never get the "big idea" to do what Tony does just by reading his post's

Reading all this is going to make me have to go see Jim Joseph, buy a 30 cube, a VR 3, and finally get that training!

[SpearMax]

Go for it Adam!

[dagodiver]

So, why did you dance on the razor's edge? Why does Tony? You may fall to the excuse that there was no better science or that there was no other option......I'll give you that, but that alone does not negate the fact that you knew you where close to your limits at some point. Many of us CHOOSE to walk to that line and often dream of how far down the edge one may venture. Some, choose to find out, and in many cases, peril in the process.
What Tony accomplished was little more than a blip on the radar compared to your own self admitted ventures. So why is this so alarming? Because there is a more safe option?!!! A more safe option my friend would be to climb under your bed and have food and water ordered in.
Tony is walking down the edge of HIS razor. He is not running blind and he has been to his edge many times before, working farther down the blade. He has made every reasonable effort to warn and prescribe the dangers involved. In all reality I truely believe Tony is at far greater risk driving to work, but who is to say. It is Tony's cup of life and he should and will fill it to the extent he is comfortable with.
Sheck Exley found the edge of his razor at 879 fsw. Was he and idiot.....no, although I'm relitively sure more than a few believe that he was. Reguardless of the fact, his life cup was full to the point of overflowing and he died doing what he loved doing instead of watching a nurse increase his morphine drip and change his bed pan. Good for him, good for Tony and good for you as you have and may continue to strole out to the edge of your razor.



As always Moose.! :cool: :thumps:



Dago.

[dagodiver]

Reading all this is going to make me have to go see Jim Joseph, buy a 30 cube, a VR 3, and finally get that training!


Lets go...this means that Jim will have to fill trips on the east coast and I get to go diving.! :cool:



Dago.

[Captain Bil]

I teach deep stops to basic ow students - the "rule of halves" NAUI Nitrox stresses. I think that is a Dr Weinke idea. On any recreational dive, stop at half your max depth for 1 minute, then proceed to 15 feet.

Incidentally, I do this in my cave diving as well. Starting at 50 feet, I make stops every 10 feet until I get to 20 feet, where I switch to O2. Max depth in JB is 95 feet, so it's probably overkill, but I've never been bent!