Iraq Question

[jeffcroci]

At this point in the "WAR" I am curious about your opinions on how the war in Iraq has benefited (or will benefit) you, the USA, and the world as a whole? As well as the cost benefits versus losses (not limited to but including monetary)

[Bill McIntyre]

Oh boy!

I've said all this before, but here is a quick starter.

The war has not directly effected me yet, and it has great potential. For instance, what if all that money had been spent on keeping Social Security and Medicare solvent? What if it had been spent on strengthening security in our ports? That might keep me from being incinerated by a nuke in a cargo container on a ship in Long Beach. Those are just examples of what could be a long list of ways in which the war could effect me personally.

The war has significantly increased danger to the USA by by acting as a recruiting poster and expanding Muslim terrorism.

The war has increased instability in the world by altering the balance of power in the Middle East. Where once there was a secular Iraq providing a counter to Iranian Shiites, it is likely that Iraq will end up being ruled by radical Shiites in league with Iran. Since most of the other Middle East nations are predominately Sunni, this has them worried. The fact that we are obviously overextended has emboldened Syria and Iran so that they are more willing to provide support to Hezbollah and Hamas.

And of course all this instability has threatened the world's oil supply.

[jeffcroci]

Bill- "benefited you" etc.. I've heard all the other stuff before

[NOTANX]

war is rarely ever a popular idea, especially when it appears that we are not directly defending our homeland. our country has a lot of money and power. i like the idea of using it to help liberate people from an oprressive, murdering tyrant. we spend our money and lives on a lot of stupider shit. i think the way we perfomed the task may have been better, however, i think it was necessary. we would not be dealing with this issue now if we had finished the job the first time. the operation was conducted properly the first time, however, they know we left once when the idea of it became unpopular and that leads the resistance to believe we will do it again, fueling their will to remain in the fight that they did not appear to possess the first time. i thiknk we need to be careful how far we stretch ourselved tough.

[seacrecher]

We would not be still dealing with it, if we had done it right the second time either.

:gun: :gun: :gun:

Like it has been said before,

"Don't draw your weapon unless you fully intend to use it!"

[apexpredator]

i like the idea of using it to help liberate people from an oprressive, murdering tyrant.
I think the administration was well aware that people "like the IDEA of liberating a country from a ..." but you can't be serious in believing that this had anything to do with why they went do you?

[Hamrrhed]

“I realize we’re in Iraq because it doesn’t matter about freeing Iraqi’s. They will piss away their freedoms….Its their culture. But at least all these foreign fighters and extremist now have a battlefield, a place to stick it to the Americans. And it’s fine with me. I’d rather fight them here than to have my Family killed in a bombing or have snipers gun down an innocent in the street [In America]. So basically, we’re here to be like…f*%king bring it. Its better here that home, you know?
Pick your battles.”

Clifton, 19 was killed on Feb. 3 in Anbar province.
The article was taken from Newsweek April 2, 2007
Page 45, 2nd Paragraph


This young man summed up how I feel about our time over there exactly. The Arabs were already bombing us and our interest before all this came about, it’s about time we put our Boot on their neck.

Marine Barracks, Lebanon
USS Cole, Yemen
U.S. Embassy bombings, Kenya – Tanzania

[jackpine savage]

But will that end their hatred of us or serve to inflame it? Will we kill all of the extremists or create more? I wish I knew these answers, unfortunately only time will tell and I doubt the answer will be to our liking.

[Hamrrhed]

"I wish I knew these answers, unfortunately only time will tell and I doubt the answer will be to our liking"

Too true, its unfortunate.

[Bill McIntyre]

The Arabs were already bombing us and our interest before all this came about, it’s about time we put our Boot on their neck.



I think its more like we put their boots to our neck.

[seacrecher]

But will that end their hatred of us or serve to inflame it? Will we kill all of the extremists or create more? I wish I knew these answers, unfortunately only time will tell and I doubt the answer will be to our liking.

I am under the impression that the culture respects might. They continue their attacks specifically because they think we are weak for not finishing ours; the first time.

Seriously... I think that the way we have handled this is similar to having an armed burglar break in your house, shoot your wife and kids. You shoot him in the leg, incapaciting him long enough to grab his weapon. Then you call the ambulance to pick him up, while asking him how he feels as you write him a check for the hospital bills he will incur for his leg wound :rolleyes: Oh yeah, don't forget to ask him where he would like your television set to be delivered :eek:

[jackpine savage]

Whether your assessment of their culture is correct or not doesn't answer the question. If their culture respects might what are our options? Do we stay and keep fighting, all the while hoping that the Iraqi politicians come up with a political solution? We can't expect to just stay and fight while the country continues to spiral downward into civil war, if we do then whose side do we take? I don't see a solution to what is happening in that country. If you have an idea short of killing every Iraqi please enlighten us.

[seacrecher]

I don't have one. Therein lies my point that I made previously. Unless we are fully prepared to do as you suggest, perhaps we ought to just stay out of it. Not just this one, but all of them, unless it is brought to us.

I hate to be the one to say it, but I will. I think the only option is to keep on killing until either they surrender or they are all dead. It should be done swiftly and without compromise. Is that blatant enough?

If people, whether it be individuals or societies/culture/countries aren't prepared to do this, I really don't see any point to waging conflict. Sometimes it is just better to walk away.

[NOTANX]

We would not be still dealing with it, if we had done it right the second time either.

:gun: :gun: :gun:

Like it has been said before,

"Don't draw your weapon unless you fully intend to use it!"
i agree. we are treating a war like a peace keeping mission.

[Low-Mu]

Who cares if we inflame their hatred. Kill them all. All they are doing is growing and growing teaching their youth hatred. They want to kill you and destroy our way of life they have no pity or mercy. http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/12min.htm . Can't walk away when they already flew planes into our buildings. As far as Iraq this war is about to turn around. The tribal leaders are sick and tired of the innocent being killed and if they help their tribe gets more pull in the government. Shit is gonna change. Iran your next and your standing on one leg already.

[mrfish87]

To keep with the question, there are not to many benefits other than keeping the battle over there. Hopefully a benefit will be that we will no longer enter a battle without the will of the people and our leadership to win. I have lost 2 friends and had several others come home with minor injuries. My brother in law (1LT US Army)was almost killed because they were not allowed to engage the enemy who was firing at them from a house. He chose to protect his men and returned fire and destroyed the house. He was reprimanded and nearly lost his commision over the incident. Our leaders have the will to loose.....our soldiers are doing their job but are not allowed to win.

[NOTANX]

Our leaders have the will to loose.....our soldiers are doing their job but are not allowed to win.
whats new.

[jeffcroci]

so far only one response has addressed the topic, and barely at that

anybody? I'm asking here,because I have asked a number of folks and gotten pretty much zero response to the actual question, just deviations into why or why not we should be there

jeff

[seacrecher]

I think the lack of a response to your question is the answer Jeff.But to further claify it, I get no immediate personal benefit from it.

[aaron proffitt]

so far only one response has addressed the topic, and barely at that

anybody? I'm asking here,because I have asked a number of folks and gotten pretty much zero response to the actual question, just deviations into why or why not we should be there

jeff


It's a bit of a tough question to answer,jeff; especially speaking on an individual scale.When we're talking about something as big as 'war',it's kinda difficult to put in a nutshell one's individual benefit from it. Now as a nation,only time will tell either way.......

As far as personal hardships go; it's been tough on us as a family.Brother is about 1/2 halfway thru his 2nd tour with the 10th Mtn. and I have a recently retired uncle who was a civie with army intel who was in and out of there alot.As for me and my family,of course alot of questions arise when I come in from drill with desert cammies.But,'que sera; we ALL know the risk associated with the profession.Like many military families thru out time,it's just part of it.

[Wayward Son]

You basically asked a question that to answer properly would take a master's thesis. Some of us don't feel like working that hard.

I never really considered war to be fought for my personal benefit, but in that regard i do have to say that fighting al qaeda & similar groups over there beats the snot out of fighting them here, & I would have to say that i see that as a personal benefit.

You want a cost benefit analysis of the war. Have you considered the corollary, & pondered what it might cost us to not take the fight to them?

[Bill McIntyre]

I've never been able to understand this "fight them over there so we won't have to fight them here" thing. I don't believe that its an either/or choice.

Does anyone really believe that all of Al Queda is so tied up with shooting Americans in Iraq that they can't free up a few people to run a plane into the Empire State Building or sneak a nuke into the port of Long Beach in a shipping container? Wouldn't something like that be a far bigger victory for them than killing a few more American soldiers in Iraq?

I feel certain that they have been working just as hard as ever to do something in the United States, and the fact that they haven't succeeded has nothing to do with the war in Iraq. We have been lucky and/or good and have prevented attacks at home. So they haven't killed any of us here, but we have given them a nice backup- we ship Americans over there so that they can save the price of a plane ticket and don't have to get visas.

[jeffcroci]

it wasnt necessarily on a personal basis, but the USA as a whole has or will benefit

jeff

[jackpine savage]

I think in the long term the US will not have benefitted from this war. The outcoome for the mid East is bad even with the best prognosis, that will leave a whole generation of Muslims blaming the US for the ills that will befall their nations as a result of this war. Remember that the blamed colonialism for quite a long time for the failings in their individual nations, not it will be the US to blame and the war will give them the rational. I think the US image amongst other nations will be permanently damaged. Other countries will no longer look upon us as a positive force of change in the world but rather as a reckless military behemoth pushing other nations around to get its way.

[Bill McIntyre]

I think we could well look back at this war and call it the beginning of the end of our status as a great power.

But getting back to cost- there are so many other things that money could have been used for that could have benefitted us.

Pick your favorite problem. If you think stopping illegal immigration is the most important priority, how high could the fence along the entire Mexican border have been?

If you think funding Social Security and Medicare for the baby boomers is essential, that money could have done it.

Fix potholes in the interstate, strengthen security in our ports, build more airports, etc. etc. etc.

[Bill McIntyre]

Here is something pertinent.
************************************
Thank God we invaded Iraq

As the New York Times reports this morning, a "new generation" of al-Qaida leaders has "emerged" under the control of Osama bin Laden, which has led to "surprise and dismay within United States intelligence agencies about the group's ability to rebound from" America's post-9/11 offensive.

What does that have to do with the war in Iraq? Well, not much, except for this:

"Experts ... believe the fighting in Iraq will produce future Qaeda leaders," the Times reports. Robert Richer, a former associate director of operations for the CIA, puts this fine point on the matter: "The jihadis returning from Iraq are far more capable than the mujahedeen who fought the Soviets ever were. They have been fighting the best military in the world, with the best technology and tactics."

Translation: We're fighting them in Iraq so that we can fight them again somewhere else.

-- Tim Grieve

[seacrecher]

it wasnt necessarily on a personal basis, but the USA as a whole has or will benefit

jeff

Well, just maybe, it will drive the price of oil so high, or the ME will get so pissed at us that they will have an oil embargo, that we will in fact be forced to look to alternative fuel sources; saving us from global warming :D BTW I am only half-kidding ;)

[Bill McIntyre]

But its really very safe.
******************************
McCain Strolls Through Baghdad Market, Accompanied By 100 Soldiers, 3 Blackhawks, 2 Apache Gunships
Sen. John McCain strolled briefly through an open-air market in Baghdad today in an effort to prove that Americans are “not getting the full picture” of what’s going on in Iraq.

NBC’s Nightly News provided further details about McCain’s one-hour guided tour. He was accompanied by “100 American soldiers, with three Blackhawk helicopters, and two Apache gunships overhead.” Still photographs provided by the military to NBC News seemed to show McCain wearing a bulletproof vest during his visit. Watch it:


McCain recently claimed that there “are neighborhoods in Baghdad where you and I could walk through those neighborhoods, today.” In a press conference after his Baghdad tour, McCain told a reporter that his visit to the market today was proof that you could indeed “walk freely” in some areas of Baghdad.

[Dstruxto]

I thought we're getting cheaper oil...oh wait that was last years bitch'n point.
MY BAD

[lens]

I thought we're getting cheaper oil...oh wait that was last years bitch'n point.
MY BAD

We at least got cheaper gas prices right before the elections. ;)

[Bill McIntyre]

We at least got cheaper gas prices right before the elections. ;)

Wasn't that a hell of a coincidence though.

[bgbill]

We at least got cheaper gas prices right before the elections. ;)


I guess we need more elections.

[bruce_s]

Benefits?Seeing the corpse of al zarquaii and knowing that the last person that creep saw was a special forces person from good old USA.We have not been hit since 911 in this country.Watching some incredibly brave young men and women answer the call and perform so magnificently.
Lastly it was good to see the country stand as one after the buildings collapsed.

[Prater]

I am alive, so that is my benefit. If we leave the jihadists alone they will definatelly think of new ways to kill American Citizens. I am sure we are enraging more muslim youth into hating us, but why are we not seeing more American youth hating them for murdering our soldiers and wanting to kill us. Is everyone going soft, turn the other cheek?? NOT ME

Is money really the issue? How about Oil?

The money spent on the war would never be spent on Social Security or medicaid, I believe the politicians dont want to spend it there or it would have been taken care of before the war. I am in my 30's and I realize that I need to save for my retirement and medical needs. I will not be looking for the handout from the government, I will sustain myself. I will just have to suck it up and consider the money I added to the fund an investment risk.

Oil, you betcha. Bottom line is we all need it. Look way back to the past and think about why the wars were fought in the first place. It was the need for control. And we consume the most oil and would benefit from controling the commodity. May not seem like it now, but what happens when it becomes a shortage? Probably during our Grandchildrens day of reign on the planet, who knows...

If we pull out of Iraq, I want to see us slam the Taliban in Afganistan, better yet just annialate them. I dont think we should be the world police, but how long are you going to let someone hit you in the back with a rock before you turn around and knock the crap out of them?

I also dont really care what the other countries think of us. Its like the nosy neighbors. That is the problem, lets not make France mad at us or we might have a bagel shortage...Ohh my God...

Just my thoughts...

[jeffcroci]

so far there is no real immediate or forseen benefit.... wooooo hoooo!!!!!!

so some really rich people are getting more rich and a lot of others are getting shit on. status quo

[David Deman]

Its funny, because all that anyone over here knows about the war is what the media feeds them. You see who dies in IED and mortar attacks. You see the corruption in their government. You see the shortcomings in their new security force. What no one here sees are the good things that we're accomplishing over there. The schools we've built. The security we've provided to so many of their cities. I don't care what CNN or Fox News says. I've talked to the people that are beyond grateful for what we've done over there. I've played with the children. I've shaken the hands of the elderly that could finally walk the streets of their own cities again. Trust me, you're view of the world from your couch is fairly narrow and third person. Reciting back to me what some reporter told you on the 6 o'clock news doesn't impress me.

I feel like we've done a lot of very worthwhile things over there and I'm one of the ones doing them. Try telling the families of SSG Brown and 1LT DeMoors that it wasn't worth it.

[Bill McIntyre]

Try telling the families of SSG Brown and 1LT DeMoors that it wasn't worth it.

I presume that these men were killed? If so, families always want to believe that the sacrifice of their loved ones was worth it, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

The wife of one of my best friends, a pilot who lived in the same hut with me, sure wanted to believe that his death was in a good cause, but I don't think it was.

A couple of days ago, John McCain wanted to show how well things are going when he walked through a market. The networks dutifully reported it. Then they found out that he was guarded by 100 troops, 2 Blackhawk helicopters, and two A-10s and was wearing a flack jacket. Should they have hidden that info from us?

[David Deman]

It's policy that no one leaves a FOB without an IBA. Period. And when I went out, I was never with any less than 20 hter soldiers, and we always had birds in the air. A-10's is a little much, but I guess I'm no John McCain.

And we all believed that what we were doing was right. When my unit showed up to our AO, the city was overrun by insurgents and the Sunnis and Shias were at each others throats worse than anywhere else in the country. When we arrived, we took the city by force and made it so that the people we much safer and could go on living at least semi-normal lives. It was called one of the most successful operations of the conflict so far(and trust me, it could've gone better if the commanders would've listened to us MI guys). Did my 2 friends die unnecessarily? Yes, they did. Did the die during a conflict in which they believed and dedicated themselves to? You're damn right they did.

[Prater]

twentytwomonk,

Thank you very much for your hard work. I have many friends and relitaves working in the private sector of Iraq and Afghanastan and they have the same attitude as you. They know they are making a difference even if the critics report otherwise. I am working with the new bioterrorism departments created after 9/11. There is a lot beeing done to help protect America over here as you guys and gals are working to protect lives across the sea.

Steven

[David Deman]

Thanks, Steven. I appreciate the kind words. It's nice to know that there are still people out there who believe in what we're doing.

[Bill McIntyre]

Thanks, Steven. I appreciate the kind words. It's nice to know that there are still people out there who believe in what we're doing.

I want to make it clear that I believe in you and people like you and appreciate your dedication and sacrifice, but I differentiate that from believing in your civilian leadership, all of whom carefully avoided ever putting their own asses on the line, and the mission they gave you. If you have to do it, you have to believe in it, but we old farts have the luxury of standing back and questioning whether its worth it.

You say we can't appreciate the big picture without having been there, and I realize that there is some truth in that. But what about objective numbers reporting deaths of American servicemen? What about objective numbers of Iraqis being killed by suicide bombers every day as they go about trying to live their lives? Are their lives truly better than before when they can't go to work or school or shopping without being blown up?

Or do you think the press is actually lying about those deaths? I'm a cynic, but even I am not that cynical.

In Vietnam as now, people bitched that the news only showed the bad stuff rather than what was really going on. Well you know what- the bad stuff was the important part of what was going on. I suspect its the same in Iraq, even if you can quote someone as thanking you for being there. What can really be more important than people dying by the dozens daily just because they were trying to go about their lives?

If it stops or gets significantly better, then fine, but its not getting better yet. People like you are too valuable to waste.

[bruce_s]

Jeff as far as benefits to war.The only way a country benefits is if territory is taken and held.The conquered country is plundered and the wealth removed and then that country is made to pay tribute from that time forward.The United states has not done this since the spanish american war and then we just took territory.

[Bill McIntyre]

Jeff as far as benefits to war.The only way a country benefits is if territory is taken and held.The conquered country is plundered and the wealth removed and then that country is made to pay tribute from that time forward.

So I guess we didn't benefit from fighting WWII? We sure didn't hold the territory, we didn't remove the wealth, and in fact we rebuilt Europe by paying them "tribute" through the Marshall Plan.

Seemed to work out pretty well anyway.

[apnea_beast]

i just hope the intelligence force backing up our troops is what it should be.

[Got Ya]

The Politicians don't wan't a balanced budget, free medical for everyone, wealthy poor people and so on. They would be out of a job. That means no Million dollar book deals and Power. GET REAL! It is a scam. Lip service, smoke up our water tight you know what. Enough said.

[freedivingfool]

Bill for being a prior Marine, your FOS! They started the war not us, from what i recall they blew up the twin towers and pentagon.so what if a couple of marines did their jobs down in pendleton, so it's cry babies liberals like you are keeping us from winning the war! All you want to show is how marines and soilders ruin the iraqi's life and how to embarrass the troops. For me personally i see no diffrences between democrats and republican party to the sunni and shites, each is wants power no matter the cause. It's people like you that we fight for so you can have all of your worthless opinions.

[jackpine savage]

Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. Saddam Hussein, while a POS, had no connection to al-Qaeda. Quit beating that horse to death.

[bruce_s]

It's people like you that we fight for so you can have all of your worthless opinions.

I also don't care for some of Bills opinions but they are not worthless.If we want to have a discussion we need to get all opinions.He pisses me off also but he makes a contribution to the discussion.
I assume you are a marine from your picture and of course okinawa.I cannot thank you enough for your service and that of our buddies.Take care

[freedivingfool]

I just want the people to know that I have patrol the streets of AL anbar provence and those people are bred to hate us, sunni, shite's. They teach their children to hate us in their schools, we would ask the kids why they hate us. They could not come up with an answer but that they were taught to just hate America. so imagine what these kids go through that hatred just builds up, and they want to kill any Americans they can get their hands on. The reason maybe we haven't been attack here in America yet, is that is cheaper for them to do it over there, they can blend in with the local population, speak the language, and fit in. They can get their hands on weapons easily and blow up Americans on their own soil. In Iraq it's hard to distinguish Insurgents from civilians because they shoot you and then run into a house and fit in with the family that lives there, or they blow you up and watch you get anihilated while sipping on tea. So for me, bill deserves to say what he wants, buts it's his opinion and you know what they say, it's just like assholes everyones got one. His just seems to be anti everything and negative. He reminds me of an Hawaii skin diver magazine article about steve alexander. He Stated" I rather shoot at Marines then at the viet cong", if I ever meet steve alexander I would kick him in the balls for that comment.

[lens]

so it's cry babies liberals like you are keeping us from winning the war!

Please explain this. I am curious to know how you came to this conclusion. I mean does John Kerry follow troops around Iraq and hold their trigger finger keeping them from firing their Rifle? Or is Hillary Clinton directing the War Campaigns and making the troops wear pink Berets? Maybe Rosie O’Donnell is emboldening the Iraq insurgents that watch the View on a religious schedule every morning at 10am Eastern time? Maybe Congress who have no political power past the American shores are dictating War Plans? Maybe Bush has been folding to the so called Liberal media for the past 5 years?:rolleyes:

No! For the last FIVE years the Republicans have ran the war with a power that has been 100% un-contested. "NO IF's AND's OR BUT's" about it.

For a group that acts like they hold social/Self responsibility so high in regards, Republicans sure do not practice it. I have never seen a group that blames everything they do wrong on someone else so much. Not one Democrat, Libertarian, Green Party or Independent has taken the wheel, or for that matter been in the car that is the Iraq War.

But all you hear is "We're winning the war" and then two seconds later "We're not winning the war because of Liberals like you!"

While I can empathize with your frustration with how the war is going, I see it as misguided. Just remember who the "DECIDER" has been, and IS!

We are at least holding our ground in Iraq because of quality dedicated troops like you. But.... with that said, we are in the position we are in, in Iraq, because of poor political leadership, not the Media, not the Liberals not Cindy Shihan, but because of BUSH the Commander in chief and the Republican leadership that has preceded it.


It's people like you that we fight for so you can have all of your worthless opinions.

Thats Original. Did you come up with that all by yourself. I guess you have not received the MEMO. I think most have figured out Iraq is not about American freedom. Thats why it was called Operation Iraqi Freedom. So that catch phrase does not work so well in this context.


But....I guess the same can be said for YOU! SO......Right back at ya! Keep spewing your short sited rhetoric and We will keep fighting for your freedom to do so.

[bruce_s]

He Stated" I rather shoot at Marines then at the viet cong", if I ever meet steve alexander I would kick him in the balls for that comment.

That is the kind of quote that makes me want to throw up.I support the right of everyone to an opinion but that crosses the line.Was he in the military?

[lens]

He reminds me of an Hawaii skin diver magazine article about steve alexander. He Stated" I rather shoot at Marines then at the viet cong", if I ever meet steve alexander I would kick him in the balls for that comment.

Yep, making that statement is probably the quickest way to get his arse kicked by a Marine or any American for that fact. But comparing Bill to that statement is a little bit, or rather a BIG stretch.

Just remember that Bill has seen and done everything you have done and will do in the future. It’s usually Forty years later we look back and go DOH! I see what they were talking about.

But no where on this board has Bill said one negative remark about and single US soldier or the US troops. He understands like most do, that you are doing your job. You’re not required to ask why, you just show diligence and succeed at the task assigned to you.

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill for being a prior Marine, your FOS! They started the war not us, from what i recall they blew up the twin towers and pentagon.

Jackpine already replied to that, but it shows the ignorance which forms your opinions. There was not a single Iraqi on those planes. There was not even a link between Iraq and the people on those planes. The largest single nationality represented among the hijackers was Saudi. Why aren't you fighting Saudi Arabia?

Even the administration finally conceded that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and went on to make up other reasons to attack Iraq, but you still think that's why you are fighting Iraq. Its sad to see you say that I'm trying to embarrass the troops when you are embarrassing yourself.

Your other post about how they were taught to hate Americans, we can't tell insurgents from civilians, etc. sounded like an argument that we should get out rather than a reason to stay. I'm surprised and saddened that you can't see that. If your purpose was to tell us how hard it is for our troops over there, I don't need convincing. That's why I want them out of there.

It appears that you haven't been able to differentiate between criticism of you and other troops and criticism of the idea of sending you to that war. I shouldn't have been in Vietnam, but it wasn't my idea and it wasn't my fault. I think the nation needs a military, and that military has to go where it's civilian leadership tells it to. The war in Iraq is a bad idea, but its not your fault, and I'm not blaming you. Hell, you have just proven that you don't even know why we are in it. I just don't want to waste you and the other troops. We could well need you for something really vital to our national interests.

I don't know why Steve Alexander made that statement quoted in the magazine, but just in case you didn't know, he was a Marine in Vietnam.

[David Deman]

I firmly believe that we did the right thing by removing Saddam Hussein from power. Granted, we never did find any weapons of mass destruction, but I still hold firm that we did a great thing for those people. The ones that hate us are mostly the foreign fighters in Iraq, from countries like Syria, Iran, even Chechnyans(trust me, I was there for the interrogation). Most of the squabbling in Iraq is due to Al-Queda. How they operate is that they offer money to the poorest of the population(which is a pretty large chunk), and pay them for carrying out attacks. Most of the fighters are people who are paid to attack once and never attack again. They're not doing it because they're anti-American, they're doing it because they want to feed their families. Guys like al-Zarqawi or al-Musri don't do any of the fighting. They hop around from town to town, recruit and direct, and then run off. I watched al-Zarqawi on numerous occasions split from a town at the first sight of American troops. These people are cowards and their only desire is to perpetuate the was and cause coalition casualties. And the funny thig is, they're REALLY dumb. You have no idea how many of the insurgent attacks fail. IED's don't go off. Shots that couldn't hit air. These guys are ridiculously stupid. I've been shot at, had people try and blow me up(I still flinch at the sound of a Motorola radio, for reasons I won't go into here).

And trust me, there's nothing more gratifying than watching the Air Force drop a JDAM on a guy that just tried to kill you.

[jackpine savage]

It's people like you that we fight for so you can have all of your worthless opinions.

I also don't care for some of Bills opinions but they are not worthless.If we want to have a discussion we need to get all opinions.He pisses me off also but he makes a contribution to the discussion.
I assume you are a marine from your picture and of course okinawa.I cannot thank you enough for your service and that of our buddies.Take care
Was that directed at me? I just stated what is a known fact. If you have any info that somehow shows that Iraq or Saddam had any connection to 9-11 please share it. We are in the middle of a civil war, the hatred between the Shia and Sunnis goes back 1000 years. You think we can suddenly get them to live together in peace? I could careless if they want to fight a civil war or not, I just don't think we should be in the middle of it. By the way my opinions are in now way connected to your service but to my citizenship. You aren't the only one on spearboard who has served their country.

[Bill McIntyre]

I firmly believe that we did the right thing by removing Saddam Hussein from power.

If we stop with that statement, few would disagree. But but unfortunately, what came after that is the problem.

We didn't sent enough troops to secure the borders and secure all the ammunition dumps that were left unguarded. Army Chief of Staff Gen. Eric Shinseki said we would need more troops, but Rumsfeld forced him into retirement.

We disbanded the Iraqi Army and left all those guys who could have maintained order with no jobs. We de-Bathified the government. Since any bureaucrat who wanted to get anywhere in Iraq had to join Saddam's Baath party, we effectively fired everyone who knew how to performs the functions of government, from keeping the lights on to supplying drinking water.

The State Department's massive Future of Iraq project tried to interest the Pentagon in their postwar planning recommendations, but Vice President Dick Cheney and the Pentagon war planners made it clear they didn't want to hear about it. The result? About 2,500 pages of painstakingly detailed recommendations on subjects ranging from rebuilding Iraq's infrastructure to democratic reform went straight into the circular file.

I attended a speech by Marine General Anthony Zinni, who commanded CENTCOM before Tommy Franks. He said that in planning for any possible future invasion, he had gone to great lengths to assemble experts from all parts of government to plan for the occupation and reconstruction. He realized that the defeat of the Iraqi Army would be a piece of cake, but what came after that would be crucial, so he had assembled a detailed plan.

He had already retired when the war started, but he called up his old subordinates at CENTCOM and mentioned the plan. He was told that no one was interested in that plan, and that all planning had been pulled up to the Pentagon where is was being done by civilians who had never heard a shot fired in anger.

Removing Saddam was the easy part. The hard and important part is what came after that, and we screwed it up royally. The question is whether it can be fixed at this point.

Freedivingfool, you may think its incredible that a retired Marine like me could oppose a war, but please note that a lot of four-star generals, some of them Marines, feel the same way.

We have a real dilemma here. Civilians and retired servicemembers have a right as citizens to discuss wars that our country is engaged in, but active duty military people have to keep their morale up and believe that what they are doing is worthwhile. I don't want to be in the position of making someone doubt why he is being asked to risk his life, but I don't want to forgo my right to question the policies of my government.

If people like freedivingfool don't want to read anything that undermines their morale, maybe they should avoid the politics and religion forum of this board, or maybe just stick to web sites where active duty military people encourage each other.

[David Deman]

And I wholeheartedly agree with you, Bill. There were a lot of things that we could have and should have done differently. I wish I could have been there for that speech. Most people don't give you Marines the credit you deserve. ;)

After Seeing the situation on the Syrian border(that was part of our AO), I can say that no force coud completely control it. And there are a few reasons, but they definetely resemble the situation with the Mexican border. It would take more troops than we can provide, and those that we recruit from the other side have a tendancy to be corrupt and will let and schmuck through for a fee. We saw Iraqi generals doing this while we were there. But I can tell you that our Kiowa and Apache pilots had a lot of fun and a lot of target practice up at the border against those who crossed illegally.

And I do think that the troop surge is a good idea, because it will make it easier for coalition forces to secure major areas, like Baghdad. But the problem is policy in dealing with insurgent forces, in that we play more of a peacekeeping force that a fighting force, and that gives them the upper hand in that we never usually fire the first shot. It's 99% of the time in retaliation. Our commanders are now afraid to fire at anyone, for fear of reprisal. Most commanders have to call up at least 2 levels before getting authorization for firing on something such as a mosque, even though the Geneva Convention states that once used a site for conducting attacks or storing weapons, it loses it's protected status. All this because they don't want to be "that guy on the news".

[Bill McIntyre]

Here is more on the Iraq al-Queda link that was given as justification for invading Iraq.
**********************
Pentagon Officer Created Phony Intel on Iraq/al-Qaeda Link

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/040607A.shtml

[bruce_s]

The lack of good intel has been a sore point ever since so many cia were outed and consequently killed or forced out of the countries they were working in by then senator torecelli from new jersey.He was later disgraced for bribes and allowed to retire without so much as a smack on the hand.Bottom line is I don't think the cia is in any position to say what the relationship was between saddam and al queda.I guess we use different sources for our information bill.I don't see too much balance in those op eds.

[Bill McIntyre]

This administration didn't give a damn about the CIA because it consistently produced intel that didn't fit the story that the administration wanted to hear. Analysts have said that Cheney's repeated trips over to Langley made it clear that they were going to have to change their story until it conformed to what Cheney wanted to hear.

And then of course they had no hesitation about outing Valerie Plame when her husband punched a hole in their yellowcake from Niger story.

Speaking of that, I heard an interview with a woman journalist from an Italian magazine the other day. She is the one who received the forged Niger documents from one of her sources and first turned them over to the US Embassy in Italy. She felt sure it was bullshit, but just felt obligated to pass it along. Her editors talked it over, and didn't even consider it worthy of publication in the magazine.

But what wasn't credible enough to be published in an Italian magazine was plenty good enough for Bush to include in his State of the Union.

I guess we use different sources for our information bill.I don't see too much balance in those op eds.


Bruce, the source was the Inspector General of the CIA in a report to the Congress of the United States. Just what would constitute a credible source if that doesn't? Do you think he lied?

[bruce_s]

Bill I never inferred he lied only that they are incompetent.I am no more inclined to believe him than most of the political hacks in both parties up on the hill.
Valeri plame now thats a laugh.It was not the administration that outed her at all.Everybody in the capitol knew she was in the cia.It was common knowledge.She was not on some deep cover assignment as were a lot of the agents who I spoke of previously.Just where was she undercover Washington??Check out this little article about the wilson/plames



http://www.slate.com/id/2103795/

[inletsurf]

Valeri plame now thats a laugh.It was not the administration that outed her at all.Everybody in the capitol knew she was in the cia.It was common knowledge.She was not on some deep cover assignment as were a lot of the agents who I spoke of previously.Just where was she undercover Washington??Check out this little article about the wilson/plames



http://www.slate.com/id/2103795/


Whatever, dude. The law is the law. If one breaks the conditions of a security clearance that involves this degree of damage, they will do time, and I think the Justice Department is going to make an example of Scooter at least. Its about time, just because one works for the president doesn't mean one has authority in choosing what is classified and what is not, regardless what is perceived as "common knowledge". Besides, "everyone in the capitol", as you put it, pretty much has that clearance so you are right in that respect. We as the common public, including our enemies, do not have that clearance, are not privy to that information, and therein lies a grave threat to her career (which as an agent for the CIA is PERMANENTLY OVER not by her choosing), and quite possibly her life if this was spilled during a foreign mission.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Bill McIntyre]

Thanks inlet. I was trying to decide whether I should even try to respond.

I am not "everyone in the capital" so I can't say for sure what those mythical people know. But in her testimony (sworn testimony) to Congress, she said that is was bullshit that everyone knew. Yes, she was back at Langley now, but it seems that she had done a lot of overseas assignments under cover.

The only thing that is for sure is that her career is over. She is ****ed. And her sin was to be married to a guy that our CIA sent to find out the truth, and then the administration couldn't handle any truth that interfered with its own preconceived reality.

BTW, it may be a well kept secret, but the CIA is not one of our most far left-wing commie sympathizer groups. That is what it made it so ****ing incredible when the administration refused to accept the intel it produced.

[lens]

Bill I never inferred he lied only that they are incompetent.I am no more inclined to believe him than most of the political hacks in both parties up on the hill.
Valeri plame now thats a laugh.It was not the administration that outed her at all.Everybody in the capitol knew she was in the cia.It was common knowledge.She was not on some deep cover assignment as were a lot of the agents who I spoke of previously.Just where was she undercover Washington??Check out this little article about the wilson/plames



http://www.slate.com/id/2103795/

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Can you tell the difference between a credible commentary and a slanted opinionated "Vanity Fair" Columnist?

#1 No direct quotes, just misconstrued phrases in quotation. :rolleyes: first sign of un-cited writing. The guy is a literary genius not a credible journalist.

#2 hopefully you do not find your Facts or value the political opinions of a British Pole Smoker who tries and devalues the CIA. Or...Maybe you do :rolleyes:

#3 Maybe you should send this article to the 42+ CIA agents that had to re-locate once their cover was blown.

#4 Christopher Hitchens is joke. His last big piece was a huge thesis on "How Women do not have the ability to use humor." He is just a wanna be George Orwell. He is an egomaniac and has changed his political sides 4 times in the last 15 years.

Here is an article from one of his long time friends.
http://www.counterpunch.com/cockburn08202005.html

[Bill McIntyre]

I meant to read the Slate article, but it slipped my mind. Now I did it.

I got to the LA Times Festival of Books at the UCLA campus most years. They always have authors engaged in debates with one another over current topics, and I've seen Hitchens a couple of times a few years ago.

I have to admit that he is one caustic, witty, SOB, mean enough to even get banned from Spearboard. He is extremely intelligent and quick on his feet in a debate, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone who was so willing to tell off the audience if they even moaned at anything he said.

I admire his balls and his eloquence, but I don't respect him.

[Bill McIntyre]

Here is an article from one of his long time friends.
http://www.counterpunch.com/cockburn08202005.html

Thanks. How I love to read Cockburn, especially when he is being bitchy.

He used to be printed regularly in the LA Times until the paper was bought by the Tribune company and took a hard swerve to the right. I have to admit that Cockburn was even a bit left for me on some topics, but he was always entertaining.

And the other reason that I feel an affinity for Cockburn is not really rational, but he hails from Ardmore, Ireland. On one of our four cycling trips through Ireland, my wife and I didn't like the looks of our accomodations in Cork, so pedaled on to an unscheduled two nights in Ardmore, and it was absolutely delightful.

[lens]

Yeah he is pretty far left, funny thing is Hitchens used to run side by side with him on the issues. Until, as Hitchens says "Clinton the Rapist" started his detachment from the Left.

Hitchens is just all over the place. Some of his commentaries are borderline psychotic rambles.