Spearmax - Shark Shields Don't Work on Big Moray Eels!

[SpearMax]

Here is a report from the East coast of Florida on technical dives below 130 feet. Kitefisherman (aka John Herrera) and I went out on my boat Enterprise Saturday April 21, 2007 from the Palm Beach Inlet. First stop was my favorite new deep wreck where I managed to get a nice grouper flat on the bottom at 228 feet up under a deck plate. In the graph you see where I was on the bottom shooting and stringing and lift bagging that fish for a while. The maximim forecasted deco was one hour 20 minutes and the first deco stop was 110 feet. I did get a CNS dose of 100% because of the 1.7 PO2 which is not good. After working my deco stops up to 30 feet, I was happy to see the remaining deco time drop from around 1 hour to just 26 minutes. That Cochran Gemini computer is amazing in its ability to get you out of the water faster but safely! I have 20 units of conservativism chosen out of 60 units possible. Here are some dive computer stats and graph and images.

[SpearMax]

Here are some underwater scenes on the deep spearing action.

[SpearMax]

The kill shot and lift bagging.

[SpearMax]

Now, the mystery is exactly what species is the fine six pound grouper - Scamp or Yellow-Mouth? Kite thinks yellow-mouth and sent me Spearboard links to much discussion of similar catches. I have an e-mail into Dan MacMahon and some others for their opinion. So for the time being I am calling this a yellowmouth grouper until determined otherwise. (Dan, it was running.) Here are a few diagnostic photos.

[SpearMax]

Here are the measurements of this six pounder.

[SpearMax]

There was littel doubt about species identification when my good friend Kitefisherman sent this beauty up on a lift bag while surrounded by bull sharks with cobias on their backs. John was working a 140 foot max depth ledge. I will let him chime in on that story. This is one of the nicest looking alpha males weighing 9.5 pounds that I have ever seen on the east coast of Florida. Nice work John!

[SpearMax]

Next stop for me was another deep ledge at 135 feet where I picked up these babes - 18.5 and 22 pounds gag groupers. :cool:

[SpearMax]

And finally, the incident leading to the title of this thread. With low visibilty on that ledge and lots and lots of big bull sharks around, I turned on my shark shield because I was diving solo and shooting fish. I usually don't turn it on until I shoot a fish. A mutton snapper was my quarry.

[SpearMax]

One creature the SS does not work against is a hungry fat moray eel that tried to get this mutton snapper I shot. After a tug-of-war, I managed to get my fish from the moray eel which had swallowed it whole! :eek:

Oh well .... as long as the SS continues to work as good as it does on the sharks - that is just fine and dandy with me! :thumps:

[Mobile Diver]

Awesome pics, Tony. And fat S FL hog, John. :thumps:

I have lost far more fish to Morays than sharks or GGs. They are fearless & can be a real PITA.

[fizisition]

definatly a scamp, the pointy anal fin is the first giveaway and the tail another

[SpearMax]

definatly a scamp, the pointy anal fin is the first giveaway and the tail another

Pat, you are the man! :thumps:

That is a great comparison photo. Mine does seem to have that point on the bottom fin. We will have to see what Kite says as he was pretty firm in his YM opinion. One of the books we looked at incorrectly implied that scamps do not have yellow in their mouths. These damm fish ID books can be all over the place on certain species. :(

Dan must be on the water. :cowboy:

[SpearMax]

I had someone ask me about the Grouper laws on Scamps and Yellowmouths as well as the daily bag limits. So for clarification and general education, here they are directly from the Florida Administrative code. They sure do not make it easy to memorize all these rules, do they? ;)

RULE: 68B-14.0036 Recreational Bag Limits: Snapper, Grouper, Hogfish, Black Sea Bass, Red Porgy, Amberjacks, Exception, Wholesale/Retail Purchase Exemption

(2) Grouper.
(a) Aggregate bag limit. Except as provided elsewhere in this rule, no recreational harvester shall harvest in or from state waters, nor possess while in or on state waters, more than a total of 5 grouper per day, in any combination of species.
(b) Red Grouper. Except as provided elsewhere in this rule, in all state waters of the Gulf of Mexico, within the aggregate bag and possession limit established in paragraph (a), no more than 1 fish may be red grouper. No recreational harvester may harvest in or from state waters of the Gulf of Mexico, nor possess while in or on the waters of the Gulf of Mexico, more than 1 red grouper.
(c) Gag and black grouper. Except as provided elsewhere in this rule, in all state waters of the Atlantic Ocean and all state waters of Monroe County, within the aggregate bag and possession limit established in paragraph (a), no more than 2 fish may be gag or black grouper, either individually or in combination. No recreational harvester may harvest in or from state waters of the Atlantic Ocean or in or from state waters of Monroe County, nor possess while in or on the waters of the Atlantic Ocean or in or on state waters of Monroe County, more than 2 such fish.
(d) Speckled hind and Warsaw grouper. No recreational harvester shall harvest in or from state waters, nor possess while in or on state waters, more than one speckled hind or more than one Warsaw grouper per day, and no more than one of each species shall be possessed aboard any vessel in or on state waters, at any time. Such fish shall be counted for purposes of the aggregate grouper bag and possession limit prescribed in paragraph (a).
(e) Nassau grouper and goliath grouper. No person shall harvest in or from state waters, nor possess while in or on the waters of the state, or land, any Nassau grouper or goliath grouper. The purchase, sale, or exchange of any Nassau grouper or goliath grouper is prohibited.

RULE EFFECTIVE DATE: 7/1/2006

HISTORY NOTES: Specific Authority Art. IV, Sec. 9, Fla. Const. Law Implemented Art. IV, Sec. 9, Fla. Const. History–New 12-31-98, Amended 3-1-99, Formerly 46-14.0036, Amended 10-22-99, 1-1-00, 3-6-00, 3-1-01, 1-1-03, 1-3-05, 9-16-05, 1-1-06, 7-1-06.



68B-14.0035 Size Limits: Amberjacks, Black Sea Bass, Gray Triggerfish, Grouper, Hogfish, Red Porgy, Snapper.No person shall land, possess, unnecessarily destroy, purchase, exchange, sell or offer for sale any of the following species harvested in or from state waters, of a length less than set forth as follows:
(1) Amberjacks (measured in terms of fork length).
(a) Banded rudderfish no less than 14 inches, no greater than 22 inches.
(b)1. Greater amberjack harvested recreationally 28 inches.
2. Greater amberjack harvested commercially 36 inches.
(c) Lesser amberjack no less than 14 inches, no greater than 22 inches.
(2) Black sea bass 10 inches total length.
(3) Gray triggerfish 12 inches fork length.
(4) Grouper (measured in terms of total length).
(a)1. Black grouper harvested recreationally from the Atlantic Ocean and all waters of Monroe County 24 inches.
2. Black grouper harvested recreationally from the Gulf of Mexico except from all waters of Monroe County 22 inches.
(b) Black grouper harvested commercially 24 inches.
(c)1. Gag harvested recreationally from the Atlantic Ocean and all waters of Monroe County 24 inches.
2. Gag harvested recreationally from the Gulf of Mexico except from all waters of Monroe County 22 inches.
(d) Gag harvested commercially 24 inches.
(e) Red grouper 20 inches.
(f)1. Scamp harvested from the Atlantic Ocean and all waters of Monroe County 20 inches.
2. Scamp harvested from the Gulf of Mexico except from all waters of Monroe County 16 inches.
(g) Yellowfin grouper 20 inches.
(h) Yellowmouth grouper 20 inches.
(5) Hogfish 12 inches fork length.
(6) Red porgy harvested in waters of the Atlantic Ocean 14 inches total length.
(7) Snapper (measured in terms of total length).
(a) Blackfin snapper 12 inches.
(b) Cubera snapper 12 inches.
(c) Dog snapper 12 inches.
(d)1. Gray (mangrove) snapper harvested recreationally 10 inches.
2. Gray (mangrove) snapper harvested commercially 12 inches.
(e) Lane snapper 8 inches.
(f) Mahogany snapper 12 inches.
(g) Mutton snapper 16 inches.
(h) Queen snapper 12 inches.
(i) Red snapper harvested from the Atlantic Ocean 20 inches.
(j)1. Red snapper harvested recreationally from the Gulf of Mexico 16 inches.
2. Red snapper harvested commercially from the Gulf of Mexico 15 inches.
(k) Silk snapper 12 inches.
(l) Schoolmaster snapper 10 inches.
(m) Vermilion snapper harvested recreationally 11 inches.
(n)1. Vermilion snapper harvested commercially from the Atlantic Ocean 12 inches.
2. Vermilion snapper harvested commercially from the Gulf of Mexico 11 inches.
(o) Yellowtail snapper 12 inches.
Specific Authority Art. IV, Sec. 9, Fla. Const. Law Implemented Art. IV, Sec. 9, Fla. Const. History–New 12-31-98, Amended 3-1-99, Formerly 46-14.0035, Amended 1-1-00, 1-1-01, 1-1-01, 1-1-03, 9-16-05, 7-1-06.

[inletsurf]

Scamp!! Pretty nice size. All scamps I've seen around here have the yellow mouth.

[Johnoly]

Nice hog Kite!

And an excellent tutorial on grouper ID's!!

Tony, water looked sloppy in the picture behind you guys. That's a tough day of diving!

[SpearMax]

Tony, water looked sloppy in the picture behind you guys. That's a tough day of diving!

John, I heard Ocean ed, Sheri and other SBers were out on JDC that day as well. It was Ok once you got way out there. I passed on Sunday though! Too much SBO work to do. ;) Tony :cowboy:

[Bucket One]

No doubt its a scamp.

Here's a better pic of a scamp and yellowmouth taken right after they came out of the water. This pic shows the colors better.

Scamp on top and yellowmouth on the bottom.

May'be I should start a grouper ID thread one day? :eek:

[SpearMax]

No doubt its a scamp.

Here's a better pic of a scamp and yellowmouth taken right after they came out of the water. This pic shows the colors better.

Scamp on top and yellowmouth on the bottom.

May'be I should start a grouper ID thread one day? :eek:


You are one of our resident experts on fish ID Ritchie! Great comparison photo like Pat's photo. Thanks for the confirmation of Pat's and other's opinions. :thumps:

[LakeHunter]

This is an awesome fish id thread. We should do this for more fish. Hmmm, maybe i'll start something up in the CA section tonight

[OceanEd]

Tony:

Great pictures as usual. Those looked like good size AJ's in one of your shots, and alot of them.

Yes, a bunch of us were out with JDC on Saturday morning. Not very good vis or much around to target. At least we got wet and I managed a decent Cobia.

John:

Very nice hog! Are you sure you didn't import it from the Carolinas?

[StabbinBoy]

Great day on the water :thumps:
Thanks for the post Tony.

[fishkilla]

thought i'd show off my YM also

[kitefisherman]

The thing that I've come to focus on in distinguishing between scamps and yellowmouths is the fins in front of the tail . While yellowmouths have a pointed fin on the bottom (anal fin), the fin on the top is not pointed. In scamps, both fins are pointed. Tony's fish had a pointy bottom fin but the top was round - see the deck shot below. Maybe it is because the tips of the tail extend out so much further than the center of the tail that makes it a scamp?

While we're showing off yellowmouths, here is a photo of my 23 pounder that I shot off South Carolina.

The fish that I'm holding in the last photo is a scamp. See how pointy both the the top and bottom fins are? I shot it off a Louisiana oil rig. I understand that there are practically no yellowmouths in the Gulf North of the Middlegrounds.

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong things, but I thought that Tony's was a yellowmouth.

[SpearMax]

John, here is what a fish scientist had to say about my fish:

"It is a scamp. Unfortunately scamps have yellow mouths too. The easiest way to tell the difference is by the margin of the caudal fin. Yellowmouth has a scalloped edge with a regular arrangement of exertions (extentions to the fin rays), while scamp caudals have exertions that are longer at the ends and decline in length toward the center of the fin margin. There are also coloration differences."

[Quetzal]

John, here is what a fish scientist had to say about my fish:

"It is a scamp. Unfortunately scamps have yellow mouths too. The easiest way to tell the difference is by the margin of the caudal fin. Yellowmouth has a scalloped edge with a regular arrangement of exertions (extentions to the fin rays), while scamp caudals have exertions that are longer at the ends and decline in length toward the center of the fin margin. There are also coloration differences."
Huh?:scratch:
Plain English please.

[SpearMax]

Huh?:scratch:
Plain English please.
Exertions are the little pointy things on the big tail at the end of the fish called a caudal fin.

More from Fishbase.com:

Term : margin
Language: English margin = Edge, rim.

Term : caudal fin
Language: English caudal fin = Often called the tail fin, it provides the main power for forward movement in fish. It may be square or slightly indented to deeply forked.

[Mariner]

Nice fish Tony!! :thumps:

A bit off topic....How about a section on fish id??? With Fizistion-like quality pics??? :D :D :D :D

[SpearMax]

Nice fish Tony!! :thumps:

A bit off topic....How about a section on fish id??? With Fizistion-like quality pics??? :D :D :D :D

First things first Feek. I am creating a new section on records next. Maybe fish ID section later. ;)

[inletsurf]

John,

That is the probably the biggest scamp I have ever seen (the one on the bottom). I doubt many people on this forum have seen one that big, also.

[kitefisherman]

Thanks Steve - it's my biggest scamp. That yellowmouth just beats the current IGFA all tackle world record of 22.5 pounds (also caught off South Carolina).

[DECO]

What brand of shark sheild are you using?There was no additional photos of the bull interested in you're fish so I guess he did not come around after turning the unit on?

[fishkilla]

yellowmouths also never have the long streamers in their tails like the large scamps have. they seem to have almost perfectly semetric points all down their tails

[Quetzal]

The thing that I've come to focus on in distinguishing between scamps and yellowmouths is the fins in front of the tail . While yellowmouths have a pointed fin on the bottom (anal fin), the fin on the top is not pointed. In scamps, both fins are pointed. Tony's fish had a pointy bottom fin but the top was round - see the deck shot below. Maybe it is because the tips of the tail extend out so much further than the center of the tail that makes it a scamp?

While we're showing off yellowmouths, here is a photo of my 23 pounder that I shot off South Carolina.

The fish that I'm holding in the last photo is a scamp. See how pointy both the the top and bottom fins are? I shot it off a Louisiana oil rig. I understand that there are practically no yellowmouths in the Gulf North of the Middlegrounds.

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong things, but I thought that Tony's was a yellowmouth.
Do you have any better pics of your large YM's tail?

[SpearMax]

What brand of shark sheild are you using?There was no additional photos of the bull interested in you're fish so I guess he did not come around after turning the unit on?

Shark Shields are manufactured in Australia by Sea Change Technologies. Mine is a 4 hour battery called Freedom 4. They are available from several distributors in the USA.

[kitefisherman]

Do you have any better pics of your large YM's tail?

Sorry, I don't. I know that the tips don't extend very far out, but I thought that on such an older fish they may have worn off like on large yellowfin tuna or african pompano.

[kitefisherman]

Tony dropped me on the 140 foot ledge. As I was dropping I could see what looked like large cobia circling below me. As I got closer, I realized that they were bull sharks - not monsters but mostly sporty little ones in the 5 to 8 foot range. The first few minutes I had about 4 or so around, above and below me at all times. They would start at the edge of the 50-60 foot visibility and shoot right in at me - all I could see was their mouth and their dorsal and pectoral fins. I would square off with each as he approached, we would make eye contact, and he would bank away at about 10-15 feet.

I worked my way down the ledge and soon about a third of the bulls started having 2-8 cobia on them. About half the cobia were legal size - the biggest about 25 pounds. I couldn't get a good shot in a cobia, and I didn't want an out of control fish on my hands with all the bulls and being by myself. The sharks disappeared for about 10 minutes, but I always kept looking around. Twice I caught a solo 45 pound cobia sneaking up on me from behind, but he veered off like the sharks when I turned around. The bulls and cobia came back and continued to circle me during the rest of my dive. They did stop rushing me though. I never got a shot off that dive.

Second dive Tony dropped me a bit up current of my first drop. My objective was to shoot one of the cobes off the shark's back. As I dropped, I saw four bulls and about a dozen cobia. Over the course of my dive, I took three or four shots at 20-30 pounders but missed every time. They weren't hail mary shots - but they weren't gimmes either. The sharks just weren't coming close enough. They were shots that I should have made - maybe the constant pressure from the bull sharks was affecting my aim - or maybe my guardian angel was preventing me from connecting.

I was frustrated and had run up about 19 minutes of deco. I had plenty of gas, but it was time to go up. I spotted an alpha male hog on the other side of a bull shark. I challenged the bull and he veered off. The hog was nonchalant, but started to run when I got close. He got about 15 feet in front of me with me above and off his hind right quarter. He turned his head to the left and somehow I managed to slip a shaft in his right shoulder. The point drove through the skull and the point lodged inside the roof of his snout - he rolled over. Fortunately, the sharks were momentarily absent. I couldn't remove my lineshaft from the fish, so I disconnected the line from the gun and lift bagged the fish with the shaft in it and started my ascent. At 9 pounds, 8 ounces it was the third largest hog that I've ever shot off Southeast Florida. My largest was 11 pounds.

During my deco the sharks came back with three or four circling below me at all times. I hung there with my shaftless gun watching the show that also included bullet bonita, horse eye jacks and rainbow runners. One bull circled so close that I had a 25 pound cobia about two feet off the empty muzzle of my gun. I also got visited by an 8 foot hammerhead that swam up, displayed his dentures and left. It made the deco go by fast watching the show. I almost hated to leave when it was time.

Apart from the T head, I saw only one other shark that wasn't a bull. I'm not sure how many different bull sharks and cobia I saw on those two dives as they would swim in and out of my visibility. There had to be well over a dozen bulls and 40-60 cobia as they came in different sizes and pairings. I've never dived in conditions like that before - very memorable.

[Mobile Diver]

While folks are posting scamp pics, the La oil rigs hold some nice ones:

[Mobile Diver]

Great story & pic, John!! :thumps:

[Quetzal]

Tony dropped me on the 140 foot ledge. As I was dropping I could see what looked like large cobia circling below me. As I got closer, I realized that they were bull sharks - not monsters but mostly sporty little ones in the 5 to 8 foot range. The first few minutes I had about 4 or so around, above and below me at all times. They would start at the edge of the 50-60 foot visibility and shoot right in at me - all I could see was their mouth and their dorsal and pectoral fins. I would square off with each as he approached, we would make eye contact, and he would bank away at about 10-15 feet.

I worked my way down the ledge and soon about a third of the bulls started having 2-8 cobia on them. About half the cobia were legal size - the biggest about 25 pounds. I couldn't get a good shot in a cobia, and I didn't want an out of control fish on my hands with all the bulls and being by myself. The sharks disappeared for about 10 minutes, but I always kept looking around. Twice I caught a solo 45 pound cobia sneaking up on me from behind, but he veered off like the sharks when I turned around. The bulls and cobia came back and continued to circle me during the rest of my dive. They did stop rushing me though. I never got a shot off that dive.

Second dive Tony dropped me a bit up current of my first drop. My objective was to shoot one of the cobes off the shark's back. As I dropped, I saw four bulls and about a dozen cobia. Over the course of my dive, I took three or four shots at 20-30 pounders but missed every time. They weren't hail mary shots - but they weren't gimmes either. The sharks just weren't coming close enough. They were shots that I should have made - maybe the constant pressure from the bull sharks was affecting my aim - or maybe my guardian angel was preventing me from connecting.

I was frustrated and had run up about 19 minutes of deco. I had plenty of gas, but it was time to go up. I spotted an alpha male hog on the other side of a bull shark. I challenged the bull and he veered off. The hog was nonchalant, but started to run when I got close. He got about 15 feet in front of me with me above and off his hind right quarter. He turned his head to the left and somehow I managed to slip a shaft in his right shoulder. The point drove through the skull and the point lodged inside the roof of his snout - he rolled over. Fortunately, the sharks were momentarily absent. I couldn't remove my lineshaft from the fish, so I disconnected the line from the gun and lift bagged the fish with the shaft in it and started my ascent. At 9 pounds, 8 ounces it was the third largest hog that I've ever shot off Southeast Florida. My largest was 11 pounds.

During my deco the sharks came back with three or four circling below me at all times. I hung there with my shaftless gun watching the show that also included bullet bonita, horse eye jacks and rainbow runners. One bull circled so close that I had a 25 pound cobia about two feet off the empty muzzle of my gun. I also got visited by an 8 foot hammerhead that swam up, displayed his dentures and left. It made the deco go by fast watching the show. I almost hated to leave when it was time.

Apart from the T head, I saw only one other shark that wasn't a bull. I'm not sure how many different bull sharks and cobia I saw on those two dives as they would swim in and out of my visibility. There had to be well over a dozen bulls and 40-60 cobia as they came in different sizes and pairings. I've never dived in conditions like that before - very memorable.
Cool Pic! That would make a neat mount the way it is.

[SpearMax]

I've never dived in conditions like that before - very memorable.

Glad you had so much fun John! that was one hell of a story you just wrote. Seeing it in written word after hearing it from you on the boat was great. Those conditions are what makes that spot so amazingly unpredictable and surprising. :yippee:

[SpearMax]

All this talk about scamps and what do I find in my SBO 2006 weigh-in photos? The King of the Hell Divers himself! :toast:

[fizisition]

here's my biggest 24.5

[inletsurf]

So far all the big scamps shown here came off the rigs, what about yours Pat? Is that a grounds Scamp??? Sick size, man!!!

[Grin]

Wow,a Scamp thread! I just shot what I called a Yellowmouth last Saturday. But I have conceeded it's a Scamp now. Any which way it was 17 lbs and was shot off Stuart FL. Pretty big Scamp for this area. Mine definatly had a yellow mouth too.

[Dudro612]

First things first Feek. I am creating a new section on records next. Maybe fish ID section later. ;)

What kind of records? Just biggest of each species. It would be cool to have a record section to submit fish. :thumps:

[Slay Ride]

John, what kind of record are you going to break on your next trip up here? Seems like that always happens.

Oh and bring the FWC laws for me so I can start studying for next years SBO...........don't want to violate any more FL rules and all.........

[kitefisherman]

John, what kind of record are you going to break on your next trip up here? Seems like that always happens.

I'm not particular, but a 40+ gag would be nice. :cool: