Army Lt. Col. criticizes our generals

[Bill McIntyre]

I wouldn't bet on him making Col.,but I admire his courage.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/042707A.shtml

[Mikerotch]

It's a safe bet he won't make Col., and odds are he may not make his next birthday.

Mikerotch, Agreeing With Bill Mc Again

[Bill McIntyre]

Mikerotch, Agreeing With Bill Mc Again

We need more of that on this board.

[David Deman]

I worked with that guy! He's awesome. I worked with him translating for the Tal Afar Chief of Police and mayor. He's the nicest guy in the world. He deserves to go back and be the Colonel of the Regiment.

[Bill McIntyre]

I worked with that guy! He's awesome. I worked with him translating for the Tal Afar Chief of Police and mayor. He's the nicest guy in the world. He deserves to go back and be the Colonel of the Regiment.

That's good to hear. Of course the article said that his article was read by about 30 Majors and Lt. Cols and they all liked it, but I'm afraid it might not be as well received by his superiors.

Do you have any feel for how this might be received in today's Army, and what it might mean for his career?

[Bayou]

I can see how it will be perceived in today's military since I just got out...he'll be reprimanded and as you said will likely never see full colonel. We had plenty of that going on...one of the main reasons I got out last summer. Too many junior officers not standing up even though they disagreed with their superiors screw ups. Many times I saw a full bird's decisions damn near getting people killed...and every time someone questioned the decision and made the call to tell them to step aside they were given Article 15's...all the while if they hadn't more people would've died. Sad....
So yes...I agree with you Bill Mac.
Disgruntled former EOD tech,
Bayou

[David Deman]

You know what though, that's exactly what's missing from the military nowadays. People willing to stand up for what's right. I'm not gonna get into details, fo rfear of whoever may be reading, but I absolutely and totally agree with him and would back him 110%, just like I did in combat.

[MSatt]

I think that he is probably looking at "retirement" real soon.

[Bill McIntyre]

You know what though, that's exactly what's missing from the military nowadays.

I'm afraid its nothing new or particular to nowadays. It was pretty much the same during my career.

Of course it can be liberating when you know that doing the right thing can't hurt you any more.

During my last overseas tour on Okinawa, when faced with a decision where doing the right thing for the troops might not make our superiors happy, some of us used to say "well, what are they going to do- pass us over and send us overseas without dependents?" :)

[David Deman]

Amen. What are they gonna do? Discharge me and let me start my new career 3 years early? :D

[NateSmith]

haha......... in my case....... i could say "what are they gonna do, give me a double signer?" hahaha

[WonderBoy]

As matters stand now, a private who loses a rifle suffers far greater consequences than a general who loses a war," he states.

What a great quote.

[WonderBoy]

Bill,
I'm not sure I agree with your "what are they gonna do" mentality. Now, I've never been in the military, so maybe that means I have no right to comment on this at all, but is the purpose of the soldier to obey w/o question? I didn't think you chose which orders to follow based on merit or what the possible punishment/consequences would be if you don't. This isn't deciding to not do your homework because it can't really hurt your grade. I thought that you do what you are ordered to do, regardless of what you "think is the right thing". Please let me know if I am way off base here, and why...

[David Deman]

Sean, I hate to say it, but we're really starting to get away from that mentality, and focus more on what Soldiers think and feel. I had a discussion the other day with someone, and what's happening nowadays is that we're trying to go in 2 different directions. We're becoming the "Kinder, Gentler Army", but we're also training for an ongoing war. Now, when the Drill Sergeants are instructed NOT to yell at the soldiers, what kind of work is the platoon sergeant and team leader gonna have to do when they arrive to units like the 82nd and the 101st? I'll tell you what, it's a tedious damn process breaking these guys in to the combat lifestyle. Trust me, I did it. One of these days, one of these ways of thinking is going to give way to ther other, and we're either going to get back to the old way of breaking the civilian down and building the soldier up, or all wars are gonna be fought over tea and crumpets...

[WonderBoy]

I never really knew or had heard that. My cousin was in the Corps in 89. We watched Full Metal Jacket before he left and apparently basic training wasn't much different, including some mild physical violence. :)
He did his tour and when he came back, he was totally different. It changed his life forever and I attributed that to the lifestyle. I wasn't aware that lifestyle had changed or is in the process of changing.
To what do YOU attribute the split or the evolution or whatever you want to call it?

[Bill McIntyre]

Sean,

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking. I think you are saying that a soldier's duty is to follow orders, no matter what.

If so, then in a narrow sense its true. We can't very well take a vote when the task is to run up a hill into machine gun fire. But its not quite that cut and dried in the real world, and rank does matter.

A PFC is not likely to be asked by his squad leader whether he approves of running up the hill. But the higher we get up the rank structure, the more the opinion of the subordinate is likely to be solicited. Lt. Cols command battalions and squadrons and have administrative officers, maintenance officers, intelligence officers, and most important, operations officers, and a good commander asks them for their input before important decisions are made. Colonels command air groups and regiments, and have similar staffs, and so on with Generals.

One of my favorite stories is about a Marine pilot friend of mine who got out for a while when we came back from Vietnam. I ran into him after he came back in, and he said that his biggest bitch about the civilian word was the unquestioning way they expected you to follow orders. As a Marine Officer, he was accustomed to having his bosses tell him what the objective was, why this was the best way to achieve it, and then being asked if he had questions. In his experience, civilians didn't have formal leadership training and were not very good at that stuff.

Just giving orders is overrated. Even in the military, or maybe particularly in the military where lives are on the line, a good leader needs for his subordinates to buy in to the program. You can shout orders all day, but if everyone does an about face and ignores you, what are you going to do? It will be very embarrassing for you to try to court martial all of them.

Sure, after everyone is allowed to give his opinion, the CO makes the decision, and everyone has to get behind it. But an officer with integrity makes his views known even though he follows orders in the end.

So where the hell was I trying to go with this? I'm not sure. But maybe the point is that after everyone runs up the hill as ordered, those who survived have a duty to speak out like this Lt. Col. Its obviously not a good career move for him, but I'm sure he knows that. But maybe he thinks that getting out the truth as he sees is it worth sacrificing his career. He may not even be right, but I have to admire a man who has the courage of his convictions.

BTW, I guess this thing is getting legs. My wife said she heard him interviewed on NPR today, and he was really impressive.

[Bill McIntyre]

I just told my wife about my last post, and as a history teacher, she gave me a different slant.

At Nuremberg, a lot of German generals tried to justify their actions by saying they were only following orders. We hung them.

Years later, the Israelis captured Adolph Eichmann in Argentina and took him home to be held accountable for his role as Chief of the Jewish Office of the Gestapo. As such he proposed the “final solution”. His defense was "I was only following orders." He was executed too.

[Mobile Diver]

Excellent article, Bill. Don't agree with all of it, but it is thought-provoking & well written.

[WonderBoy]

I think in that case, if they hadn't followed orders, they would have been killed as well. I think they were acting under duress. It certainly doesn't excuse them of their actions.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with this guy and his right to explain himself. I was just commenting on the seemingly cavalier attitude on the previous page and not following orders b/c they really couldn't do much about it. I think that was setting a dangerous precedent. Maybe I read it wrong.

[MSatt]

Almost every time we have a discussion about orders at work the lecture begins with the subject of legal and illegal orders. I am very sure that when the Germans heard the orders to execute all Jews and "undesiables" many of them thought to themselves that this was illegal and if the rest of the world find out they are screwed. That very first instinct they had deep in their guts when they heard these orders had to of been that this is not right. Maybe if everyone that had that gut feeling had united and said no, 3 million jews wouldn't have died.

As far as, them being hung, it seems that the top brass and leaders alike are always hung at the end of major wars. Nearly all of the Japanese leaders, exept Hirohito, were hung also. Who do you think would have been hung if we had lost....10 to 1 it would have been the likes of Nimitz, MacArthor, Hallsey, Eisenhower, and everyone else that had anything to with the killing of a single "enemy" soldier/sailor/civilian. Though we did not set up concentration camps (do not even compare to the communities we set up for Japanese americans) or go around lopping heads of with swords, I am very sure that war tribunals would have found them guilty of fire bombing civilians cities to destroy "military" targets and any number of other things that caused the deaths of civilians.

[mcjaret]

Well said, Bill.

Perhaps the take on the "shave our heads and send us to the Rock" comments are misunderstood. Not a question of direct disobedience to orders; rather a decision to use one's discretion in a way felt to be correct knowing it may not ultimately please the Big Boss. This happens all the time.

Victor's justice is never pretty. Watched the History Channel special on Sherman's march. There various apologists made the case that Sherman wasn't a bad guy. His troops just got carried away and out of control with burning looting and pillaging. Not his fault. Still we hanged General Yamashita in '46 for exactly the same thing.

[aaron proffitt]

Sean, I hate to say it, but we're really starting to get away from that mentality, and focus more on what Soldiers think and feel. I had a discussion the other day with someone, and what's happening nowadays is that we're trying to go in 2 different directions. We're becoming the "Kinder, Gentler Army", but we're also training for an ongoing war. Now, when the Drill Sergeants are instructed NOT to yell at the soldiers, what kind of work is the platoon sergeant and team leader gonna have to do when they arrive to units like the 82nd and the 101st? I'll tell you what, it's a tedious damn process breaking these guys in to the combat lifestyle. Trust me, I did it. One of these days, one of these ways of thinking is going to give way to ther other, and we're either going to get back to the old way of breaking the civilian down and building the soldier up, or all wars are gonna be fought over tea and crumpets...


22monk raises some good points.With that in mind;I am one of the training NCO's for my USN(R) Embarked Security Detachment.Alot of kids who are newly coming into our unit are somewhat shell shocked when they are yelled at,thrown to the deck,shoved against walls,and made to 'duck walk' everyday during training evolutions.Having said that,we also pound into their heads that all this is with purpose.When we tell them they need to hug the bulkheads,low crawl and use sound tactics that it is because I need them alive and putting a little stress on 'em all the while beinging tactically proficient is a vital step towards that.Alot of the old school Chiefs bristled somewhat at the thought of explaining to a JEEP the 'whys' and 'how comes',but also acknowledge that 'because I said so' doesn't really motivate.
Fact is,out of the 8 new assencions into my squad; all but 1 has their BA and 6 are close to completing their MA. Some of these kids are more educated than our CO. Like it or not,an E-1 or E-2 with a BA and who has been a State Trooper for 2 years requires a little different technique than a 17 or 18 year old boot.Obviously,I am speaking from a Reservist point of view;but I can see active duty adopting these same principles.
Somewhere in there I had a point.... ;)

[Bill McIntyre]

Victor's justice is never pretty. Watched the History Channel special on Sherman's march. There various apologists made the case that Sherman wasn't a bad guy. His troops just got carried away and out of control with burning looting and pillaging. Not his fault. Still we hanged General Yamashita in '46 for exactly the same thing.

That reminds me that we saw former SecDef Robert McNamara speak at the LA Times Festival of Books a couple of years ago. He said that as a young Lt. he served on the staff of General Curtis LeMay when he was directing the fire-bombing of Tokyo. He quoted LeMay as saying that if we lost the war, he would be tried as a war criminal. He was probably right.

[mcjaret]

Chuck Yeagar said the same thing in WWII during a time when they were ordered to strafe anything that moved on the ground in Europe. Didn't matter if it was a train, a horse drawn wagon or a school boy on a bicycle -- the orders were to take it out.

I understand the rationale of taking more time to explain things to older, more educated troops, but part of the system, at least in recruit training, is designed to get people used to operating in high stress environments and obeying quickly no matter what. If they can't handle being yelled at and being required to give their all when they're tired, how will they handle combat?

Fortunately, Marines have not adopted kinder and gentler training. If anything, its meaner and nastier.

[bruce_s]

Generals protect each others rears.Same with admirals etc.Look at ww2 and admiral king.He did a terrible job of protecting our ships off the east coast.I mean the uboats had a field day.This was the same guy who gleefully prosecuted the captain of the indianapolis who later commited suicide.This kind of thing has been going on
as far back as the civil war.

[David Deman]

22monk raises some good points.With that in mind;I am one of the training NCO's for my USN(R) Embarked Security Detachment.Alot of kids who are newly coming into our unit are somewhat shell shocked when they are yelled at,thrown to the deck,shoved against walls,and made to 'duck walk' everyday during training evolutions.Having said that,we also pound into their heads that all this is with purpose.When we tell them they need to hug the bulkheads,low crawl and use sound tactics that it is because I need them alive and putting a little stress on 'em all the while beinging tactically proficient is a vital step towards that.Alot of the old school Chiefs bristled somewhat at the thought of explaining to a JEEP the 'whys' and 'how comes',but also acknowledge that 'because I said so' doesn't really motivate.
Fact is,out of the 8 new assencions into my squad; all but 1 has their BA and 6 are close to completing their MA. Some of these kids are more educated than our CO. Like it or not,an E-1 or E-2 with a BA and who has been a State Trooper for 2 years requires a little different technique than a 17 or 18 year old boot.Obviously,I am speaking from a Reservist point of view;but I can see active duty adopting these same principles.
Somewhere in there I had a point.... ;)

I'm in the wrong line of work. I need to have my head beat in from time to time. Got any openings? This pogue stuff just ain't doing it for me. :D