water in the lungs"full face mask"

[fishshooter]

I have been diving for 33 years. No problems until a couple months ago. On some dives but not on all dives I feel a drop or two of water in my lungs. When I do a full exhale it gurgles in my lung at the end of the exhale. Ending my dive with hacking and spitting. This does not happen on every dive and I have narrowed it down to water entering my nose during mask clearing. Question: Would a full face mask be helpfull ? Any other possible Fixes?

[Mark Weitz]

If you had water in your lungs during the dive I would think you would cough as soon as it got in.

I've heard that blood in your lungs due to water pressure has similiar symptoms. Just out of curiousity, what depth are we talking about on these particular dives?

Mark

[fishshooter]

Depth only averages 60 foot. My lungs are clear during the dive until I need to clear my mask. On some dives I am underwater for 45 minutes and have no issues with water in my lungs. Next dive I am in the water for 20 minutes and clear my mask and then feel drops of water in my lungs. Water has to be entering my nose after mask clearing. Fluid from hacking and spitting has no blood. That is why I am thinking of a full face mask. The mouth and nose are in the same air chamber.

[ObieWan2bWet]

Mmm... have you seen or talked to a Dr. about this?

First of all, If you need to clear your mask a lot or on every dive, you probably need a better fitting mask. Mask squeeze may also cause sinus drainage into your lungs.

I certainly don't want to cause you any panic, and I may be way offbase, but if it were me I would be very concerned... it is doubtful that a couple drops of water would be enough to make a gurgling sound, and if you are aspirating enough water to create a gurgling sound (called rales and crepitations) and then coughing up visible fluid... that's called partial drowning, pulmonary edema, or aspirated pneumonia, none of which is a good thing. There are also several other things it could be from your description. It could also be sinus mucous draining into your lungs, or possibly even spontaneous pneumothorax or a partially collapsed lung. Things change as we get older. If you are clearing your mask properly (and after 33 yrs if your not give it up ;) ) you will be exhaling through your nose, aspiration of water would be somewhat difficult.

Ask yourself these questions as a start.

Do you actually feel the water going down your larynx/trachia?

Do you choke/cough immediately when/if it does go down?

Were you congested, or had a cold/flu shortly before? Excessive sinus mucous?

Do you hack/cough foam after dive? ANY pink color at all? Any odor?

Racing, pounding heart rate?

How long does the gurgling last?

Do you feel any shortness of breath/shallow breathing after or when you are gurgling?

Do you have headaches in the morning?

Do you have any chest pains at any time before during or after the dive? Any heart issues?

Have you ever had/do you have pneumonia, bronchitis?

COPD? Emphysema? Asthma? Smoker?

Fluid in your esophagus?

Acid reflux?

Do you have high blood pressure?

My recommendation is to see a Dr., a Pulmonologist specifically(which I am not) and get a pulmonary exam and chest x-ray to rule out any serious condition you may not be aware of.

Best of luck.

[fishshooter]

Thanks Mike for the info. To answer some of your qestions. no I don't feel the water going down my larynx . No I don't choke immediately after I feel water in my lungs. No congestion . Yes I hack foam after the dive, light yellow color no pink or blood. No racing heart rate. Gurgling last 15- 20 minutes. I do shallow breathing once the gurgling begins, seems the gurgling is felt only on the end of a deep exhale. No headaches. No chest pains or heart issues. Never had pneumonia or bronchitis. No COPD,emphysema,asthma. Don't smoke. No fluid in the esophagus. Yes acid reflux. Burnt my esophagus a year ago on scalding hot coffee. Stopped diving for four months to let everything heal. Can eat all foods but french fries. No high blood pressure. I always suspected the coffee scalding to be part of the problem and think it must have left some scar tissue. Do you think a full face mask might work? The standard masks can leave a puddle of water under the nose where as a full face mask allows the water to drain to the chin. Thanks again,
Vic

[WonderBoy]

This is only a thought, but could you have water in your cylinder? Maybe over the course of a dive, if you invert yourself, flip around, etc...the water could enter the reg and it gets misted into your lungs little by little. It could happen on some dives and not others because you don't always go inverted, not sure about correlation of mask clearing though.
I dunno, just a thought. Next time you dive a bottle, drain it and knock the valve off and see if there's water in the bottom of it...

[smilinmatt]

I've never heard of anyone inhaling water from a poorly fitted mask (and apparently no one else based on the responses so far). I'd be very surprised if that was what is happening. Even if you did a complete dive with a water filled mask or no mask, you shouldn't end up with any water in your lungs. I'd go to the doctor before the dive shop.

[ObieWan2bWet]

Sorry, to answer your question a full face mask would eliminate the water at your nose. It will have a purge, so you do not break the seal to clear as with a normal mask.

Acid reflux can mess you up, not only your esophogus but also your epiglottis (the valve that closes your trachea when you swallow), which may allow fluid from the stomach to enter the trachea. The only reason I am looking elsewhere and question the mask clearing theory, is because almost without exception, everyone I have seen aspirate that much salt water, enough to cause rales or ronchi, in the short amount of time it takes to clear a mask, will cough or gag involuntarily immediately, even a tablespoon of water aspirated quickly will make you cough immediately, not well after the fact... that is why I think it may be something else, and acid reflux scarring is the best indicator yet.

Add an upper GI endoscopy to that x-ray when you see the Doc... ;)

[deepdown]

This is only a thought, but could you have water in your cylinder?

That could explain why it only happens on some dives. Do you rent, or own your tanks?

[fishshooter]

I own my own tanks. All have been filled at different dive shops. So water in all five tanks seems unlikely. The stomach leaking into the trachia sounds unlikely also. I have spent hours upside down looking under ledges for lobster with no problems.

[smilinmatt]

Let's put this as bluntly as possible. What you're describing is not an equipment condition, it's a medical condition. Go see a doctor.

[bfsc]

Let's put this as bluntly as possible. What you're describing is not an equipment condition, it's a medical condition. Go see a doctor.

:stupid:

[fishshooter]

I fully intend to see a doctor. I am trying to get as much info from the dive community to see if others have had same problem. Thanks everybody for your input. Chest x-ray and upper GI endoscopy here I come.

[ReefGuy]

I dive with a full face mask for work (an AGA, by interspiro). Full face masks have their ups and downs. They're much harder to clear with (the interspiro, anyway), and if they flood, it's much more difficult to clear than a standard mask. When you dive with a FFM, you should also carry a standard mask as a backup, because odds are, if you have a problem underwater, you'll need to, at least temporarily ditch the FFM and don a standard mask and reg.

That being said, our masks are positive pressure, which is nice for two reasons. One is they never fog, and secondly, any leaks you get (except for failure, of course) leaks air out instead of water in.

They're also nice because you can use comm gear with them. We talk diver to diver and diver to shore without issue.

[girliegills]

I found this kind of ironic. I read this thread yesterday and today I was reading the Alert Diver magazine put out by DAN on this very subject. To quote the magazine artlcle ]"As DAN members you know that DAN continuously gathers data on dive injuries. A small, but growing, number of cases reported to DAN involves what was traditionally considered a fairly rare condition. It's called immersion pulmonary edema (IPE), or pulmonary edema of diving. When this occurs, a diver or surface swimmer experiences an accumulation of fluid in the lungs. The number of IPE cases has increased. Why the increase is unclear. The condition itself in not clearly understood, but since it is occurring more frequently, divers should know about it.
Fishshooter, you may want to contact the Diver Alert Network and try to get more information. Good luck and keep us posted.

[jerry1000]

Let's put this as bluntly as possible. What you're describing is not an equipment condition, it's a medical condition. Go see a doctor.
well said ,but safe than sorry buddy ,just go get check out for your own safety

[fishshooter]

Girliegills,
" Immersion Pulmonary Edema" pulled some info up on the internet. Symptoms are all there. More stuff to ask the doc about. I kept a record of all the dives this has happened and the common factors are : cold water,over hydrated,hard swimming conditions. Thanks and I thought my mask clearing was going bad.

[dive4food]

I agree that it is a medical condition, but equipment could also be a contributing factor. Does your regulator breathe freely, effortlessly at depth?

The common factors you describe of cold water (thick wetsuit) and hard swimming could lead to you "over breathing" you regulator causing negative pressure in your lungs as they try to suck in air more quickly.

I am not a doctor, heck I don't even play one on TV.

[diverik]

I think we should get together and dive so I can see your symptoms first hand and give you my completely worthless advice! :D It might not help your problem but we'll at least get to kill some stuff :thumps:. Sorry about your troubles and I hope you get it figured out soon. Have you started using any new gear arround the time that this started? Whenever I have a new problem it is usually new gear.
Rick

[ChuckD]

If you have a normal cough reflex, water in any amount should not make it past your trachea without significant coughing. If you had an esophago-tracheal fistula, you would experience the problem with drinking liquids, and you'de have repeated cases of pneumonia.
I agree that it sounds like pulmonary edema. I'd call DAN to find a local MD who knows about diving complications. And I think your chest x-ray and lab work will probably be normal between dives. I would get an echocardiogram and check your pulmonary artery pressures and check your valves.

[Queer for Spear]

Do a "feel" test around the back of your dome below the ear line.....you might have a hole in your head.....See the doc....really

[Thiofjappekat]

Your condition may be due to acid reflux indeed. Patients sometimes complaint of chronic cough, get treated for reflux and never come back. However, girliegills brings up a good point. A couple of questions:

How old are you?
Do you have a history of heart disease? Is is there one in the family? (not a heart...the disease)
Are you diving in cold water and are you cold?
How well does your regulator breathe? Is it difficult? Is it a higher performance reg?
Do you dive in strenuous conditions like current or surge or with a buddy whose manhood is in his fin stroke?
How well do you tolerate exercise on land(strenuous)?

I'd be curious to see if any of these questions help your doctor out. You might be getting a little bit of pulmonary edema. Another good observation may be to note if any of the above diving conditions are present only when you get the problem.

Ditto the doubts of water in the mask or tank. Good Luck.

Neil

[fishshooter]

update: Doc says I will live. I have a friend at central command whom relayed this: these are the triggers- cold water, o2 deprived, excessive hydration, strenuos activity.

This is what I have been doing since my first post: started walking every day. increased to a fast walk . now I jog. swim every three days for an hour. weight lift every other day.

first dive last friday: full gear scuba on air , depth 12 feet, bottom time 1 hour. light swimming . no symptoms or discomfort.

second dive: freediving tampa bay monday. depth 20 feet viz three feet. 40 minutes. spearfishing. nothing worth shooting. no symptoms and no discomfort.

whats next : 40% nitrox

thanks everybody for your posts. i am thinking i let myself get really out of shape when the acid reflux kicked in . will keep you updated

[LakeHunter]

Good to hear you're on the right track :thumps:

[Louis Rossignol]

Water in the lungs, did you shoot a fish and hit yourself in the mouth with your speargun causing the diaphrams in your regulator to fold, and after that the next breath is 100% saltwater, and then you breathed twice?

If you did, that's water in the lungs. Did it, done it, been there, survived it. Coming up from 150'. Coughed the shit up for a week.

When it happens, hold onto your purge valve till you make it to the surface. Unfortunately in my case, my tank got hung up on a cable and I could see the surface, feel the surface but could not get my damn head out of the water. That sucked. I pulled with all I had and finally ripped free. Then started coughing.

[Thiofjappekat]

fishshooter,

I would stay away from 40% nitrox. Your are unlikely to improve as a result. The only benefit to Nitrox is decreased residual nitrogen. The idea that Nitrox will give you extra oxygen is a fallacy.

You do get some extra ppO2 absorbed in the plasma, but no more hemoglobin oxygen loading. There are some studies which suggest an increased risk of pulmonary edema using an increased percentage of oxygen, particularly in patients with heart failure. That is why I posed the above questions. Nitrox will not help your problem. The triggers are buried in my last post.

Poor performing reg= increased negative pressure breathing and extravasation of fluid into the pulmonary parenchyma.

Cold water/strenuous conditions=increased left heart pressure (afterload) and possible backup of fluid into the lungs.

Family history/age= increased risk of the above.

Again, I'd just stick to air.

Good Luck.
Neil

[Capt.Gene]

Are you diving with a Poseidon Odon/Thor 2nd stage regulator?

[Thiofjappekat]

Quote: When I do a full exhale it gurgles in my lung at the end of the exhale. Ending my dive with hacking and spitting.[/QUOTE]


Are you suspecting that the reg is moistening the air or more difficult to breathe?

[fishshooter]

I am using Zeagle regs. But have tested three other regs all ending in hacking. Nothing wrong with the regs have had this also happen while freediving. Cold water ,stenuous conditions ,were all part of the dives. Have been in the pool hauling ass trying to see if the hacking and choking comes back but it has not. Will double check the 40% nitrox with the navy docs.

[Thiofjappekat]

I am using Zeagle regs. But have tested three other regs all ending in hacking. Nothing wrong with the regs have had this also happen while freediving. Cold water ,stenuous conditions ,were all part of the dives. Have been in the pool hauling ass trying to see if the hacking and choking comes back but it has not. Will double check the 40% nitrox with the navy docs.
:lol:
You just did.

[BreathlessSight]

Fish shooter
I know a guy with a condition like this. This might not be the case for you but did you get your lungs looked at cuz you could have a hole in one of your lungs.
This guy I know has to be careful when he dives cuz when he dives and is cold along with the pressure it messes him up and some how he gets water in there. Im not sure on this hole or how it is opened or w/e. All I know is that he told me he has or was born with it and it only opens under these conditions supposevly. I could talk more with him about it. Just ask the doc if that is a possibility.