Riffe or JBL??

[LSUBigL]

Riffe Metal Tech 3 ($350) or JBL XHD($220)?

Riding Rig or Muzzle attached cable?

Wing-tip point or Ice-Pick Slip Tip?

Jill Arrington or Lisa Guererro?


your thoughts...

[fernandezh]

I have had a difficult time finding a place where I can buy replacement shafts for my JBL (Seems like Jims Dive shop has a monopoly on 60" free/Line Shafts). It is for that reason that I would recommend against JBL.

[LSUBigL]

They sell lots of JBL in Houston and Louisiana, so that's not a problem.

I'm open to suggestions on other guns, such as Billers, Wongs, and any other models that may be good at the rigs.

[FredT]

Originally posted by LSUBigL
Riffe Metal Tech 3 ($350) or JBL XHD($220)?


As a starter gun, the JBL. You'll loose less if it's damaged in the learning curve.

Originally posted by LSUBigL
Riding Rig or Muzzle attached cable?


Riding rig for the central and western gulf.

Originally posted by LSUBigL
Wing-tip point or Ice-Pick Slip Tip?


Start with a long wing detachable, again less $s lost during the learning curve. I like an ice pick, but don't consider the performance delta worth the price delta for most of my shooting.

Originally posted by LSUBigL
Jill Arrington or Lisa Guererro?


Is this a trick question? BOTH of course!

Freeshafting is not a good idea on rigs and most western gulf sites, so replacement shafts are not an issue. Hector, Ray sells freeshafts at reasonable rates for the JBL on line so that shouldn't be an issue on your side of the gulf either.

FT

[lukepaige]

I started out with a JBL sawed off magnum XHD and a magnum XHD. This combo was sufficient for me as a "novice". Once I started losing fish and breaking shit on every trip I got fed up w/ the JBL's. I then switched to a riffe metal tech 2 and 3. These guns are much more powerful than the JBL's. I had a problem w/ the JBL slip tips sticking on the shaft when belly shots were made on fish. We tried greasing the O-rings to make them come off easier and also removed the O-rings all together so that it was more like a riffe ice-pick tip. This helped a little. Then we encountered several problems w/ the JBL slide rings breaking after several trips resulting in lost shafts and tips. This was quite frushtrating as you can imagine. I was having to repair guns after each trip out costing me some much needed money. The JBL shafts tended to bend after a shot in the rig legs, riffe tips and shafts actually penetrate the steel rig legs! No bent shafts as of yet except for the occasional tarpon that decides to make a pretzel out of it, but that is part of the game I guess. If I were you I would go ahead and spend the extra money up front for the riffe, you will get a better product and save money in the long run. You will appreciate the extra power that comes w/ a metal tech 3 w/ 4 bands, that thing will blow through most of the fish you will encounter.

[LSUBigL]

Thanks Luke. I was leaning towards a Riffe because I've had problems with my JBL 450, but haven't really talked to an MT owner.

so far, my biggest failure has been the spear tip itself. I've had them come unscrewed, break at the cable, and pull out of fish. It also has a limited range, and I'm not very good yet at posturing myself in a way that doesn't scare the fish off, so I'd like to be able to shoot them from distance.

Is "Riffe" pronounced in a way that rhymes with "Life" or "Sniff"?

Big L

[rigdvr]

had a MT4 with the aluminum muzzle upgrade and it was a hell of a gun. Only drawback was the thing weighed a ton and was negative without the shaft so be aware of what you do with the gun after a shot. You would be hard pressed to find a better quality off the rack gun...but I know many people that still slay the hell out of em out there with the good ol' JBL gulf magnum xhd:D

[FredT]

Originally posted by LSUBigL
I've had them come unscrewed, break at the cable, and pull out of fish. It also has a limited range, and I'm not very good yet at posturing myself in a way that doesn't scare the fish off, so I'd like to be able to shoot them from distance.

Is "Riffe" pronounced in a way that rhymes with "Life" or "Sniff"?

Big L

No excuse for a tip to screw off the shaft. LOCTITE IT! NEVER put on a tip without it. If you need it to cure fast prime it first!

Blue Loctite 242 on the threads can be removed on the boat with a little effort and 6" vise grips. Use 272 (red) only if you have some 10" vise grips handy to separate the tip from the shaft.

Inspection of the tip cable is imortant, and the cable can be replaced if it's kinked or frayed, and can be upsized a bit if necessary.

As far as stalking, fish can hear air moving through your first stage. Stop inhaling when stalking, and not exhaling is a good thing too provided you are stationary or descending. My normal air management is to exhale hafl a breath to go negative, dive to the fish, then inhlale at the shot. Seems to work for me.You also need to learn to be a hole in the water. Buoyancy spot on so no movement is needed to maintain position, no quick fin or hand movements, and no air noise. When you can move into a school of cuda or spades and none of the fish move away from you, you are starting to do it right.

FT

[Spearooo]

anything but JBL if you can. althougth they are capable there are much better guns for the money. A rail gun for 200 is hard to beat for value and versatility. even a sporasub viper for around a 100 will do the trick and be superior to the JBL. Or a SS commercial if you prefer but JBL is a gun thaT Id only use if it were a gift. just my opinion.

[KJNDIVER]

What is everyones beef with JBL? Granted I have never used another type of gun, but what can be the big difference. I have been diving for 10 yrs now and was given some gear by someone, of which included a 10+ yr old JBL Magnum speargun. I have been using this 20 yr old gun since with no problems other than what I would considered normal wear and tear and maintenance on any gun. It puts fish in the boat along with all my buddies and their newer JBLs. Now I know a Cadillac is nice with all the bells and whistles, but a Toyota will still get me to the boat ramp on time to go spearing. What gives?

[fernandezh]

My beef with JBL is the screw on tip that comes with the gun. I actually had the tip itself break in half after becoming embedded in the fish. With my replacement tip (that was lock-tite'd on) it broke off at the threads. I called JBL about the problem but all they could say was that they were aware of the problem but were going to continue selling the guns with these shafts/tips combos. They were willing to replace my shaft/tip with another defective shaft/tip for me for free. But they would not pay for the shipping. Hell, it was cheaper to buy another shaft than pay for the postage.

Hector

[LSUBigL]

I'm not dogging JBL because I know that the XHD is a good gun. My brother bought one on my recommendation and I shot it in the pool and you can really tell that it's a lot more powerful than my 450. I bought a 450 magnum on the recommendation of a dive shop owner in BR. It worked fine until I started wanting to shoot bigger fish. Last trip I took, I hit a big AJ in the spine right behind the gill plate, and it didn't penetrate completely, the spear tip did not "detach" and the damn fish bent my shaft like a twig. My brother shot a similarly sized AJ in the same school and it blew right threw him. We had him in the boat in a few minutes.

I'm definitely going to buy a new gun, because it would cost just as much if not more to get a new muzzle, trigger, bands, and shaft than it will to buy a brand new XHD.

Rather than just buy the XHD, I want to get some info on the Riffe MT guns from some owners, preferably those who have owned both Riffe MT and JBL XHD.

Essentially, the question is this, "Is the Riffe MT worth the extra $140 bones?"

[ROCK BOTTOM]

L,

If the only consideration is the money, buy the Riffe. I am a cheap bastard and shoot the JBL. When it is time, I will relegate it as my back up gun and buy a Riffe MT4. You already have a back up gun. Now buy the RIffe.

Yeah I know i am a backwards ass individual.

Zzzzz

[kitefisherman]

LSUBigL:

I have no experience with JBLs, but I own 2 Riffes: a teak Hawaiian and a MT3 with an enclosed track. Both guns are the same dimensions and shoot the same 57" hawaiian flopper shafts. The teak gun is very accurate and powerful with an effective range of up to about 20' using three 5/8" bands using a line shaft. I use the MT3 primarily as a freeshaft gun. Using only one 9/16" band, I have a level, accurate shot at 15'.

Although both guns are very accurate, I do notice more precision (at all distances) with the MT3. Some of this may be attributable to the fact that I am freeshafting, but I think that a lot of it has to do with the enclosed track. The MT3's spear shoots like a dart - you aim, pull the trigger and that is where it goes. If you miss, it is because you did not aim carefully. Sort of like shooting a rifle. Sort of reminds me of what people were saying about the Wongs although I have no basis for comparison there either because I have never shot a Wong. All I can say is there is a noticeable improvement.

If you decide to go the MT way, I suggest that you look into the enclosed track option. I think that it would make even more difference when you are powering up your gun with multiple bands, and it may reduce shaft whip to the extent that you can accurately shoot beyond 20' with three wraps of line. The additional cost of the enclosed track is $39 at Bluewater Hunter :http://www.bluewaterhunter.com/.

Something to think about . . .

[rigdvr]

Originally posted by Spearooo
anything but JBL if you can. althougth they are capable there are much better guns for the money. A rail gun for 200 is hard to beat for value and versatility. even a sporasub viper for around a 100 will do the trick and be superior to the JBL.

The only problem with that Spearoo is that he is hunting the oil rigs where a slip tip is almost a necessity. The thicker shafts are a plus as well for punch at range. Most rig hunters shoot 3/8 shafts b/c the average fish is a little larger.

When I first started hunting with my Riffe I noticed how much longer it takes to load than the jbl...my buddies were getting off shots 2 to 1. But on the other hand I lost less fish, this was because of several reasons
1. more accuracy = better shot placement
2. increased effective range
3. better holding power of the icepick tip
So even though it was a little harder to deal with, I was LANDING more fish. Combine that with I had reached the point in my hunting where I wasnt out to "limit" on every dive and was beginning to to let average fish swim past looking for the big dawgs.

But like I said, many very successful hunters here swear by JBL's. The best scuba hunter I dive with wont try anything else and he has taken AJ's to 123# with his...cant argue with that.

[kitefisherman]

I didn't realize that you guys were using 3/8" shafts. The enclosed track will only work with 5/16" or 9/32" shafts.

Enclosed track or no, the Riffe is very powerful and accurate.

[Wet Spot]

Kind of ditto on what Rigdvr said. Most of the Louisiana records and top ten fish have come from a JBL but that's because Riffe only started becoming popular about five or six years ago.

Divers from Fla. etc, have nice wetsuits, colorful BC's and pretty guns. We're a different breed diving the rigs, most buy cheap guns because they bust them up so bad or lose them. MOST of your average fish give you a pretty easy shot too. We dive in cut off jeans and buy more duct tape than the law allows.

The Riffe would be my choice though, personally I like the NoKiOi, 3/8th shaft, three bands, riding rig, ice pick tip (use about two feet of tip cable to allow the fish to wrap halfway around a pipe without bending your shaft.) You first have to redrill the Riffe tip to fit the 3/32nds cable. Riffe shafts are made of much stonger material than the JBL's too. I've had to straighten many JBL shafts and no Riffes. Thrown a few away though....

I just got my Wong MG gun and it's so nice I'm apprehensive to take it to the rigs! Not. It's just the price we (and the fish) will have to pay.

Kite, I've talked to Daryl about making a MG gun enclosed track for a 3/8ths shaft but told him not to retool until I tried the 5/16ths first!

[LSUBigL]

Thanks Kite, Wet Spot, and Rigdvr,

I'll be picking up my Riffe sometime soon. At least this way I won't have to wonder, and I'll still have my two JBLs out there just in case.

how many wraps of cable do y'all recommend?

Anybody been to the rigs lately?

[rigdvr]

I go for 3 wraps usually.

As for the rigs, this month is usually good, if the weather cooperates. The water is a little cleaner, and there are less fisherman on the rigs as many are off hunting in the woods.

Dont worry Stan, the Wongs take a beating as well! Those arent gouges...they're beauty marks!:cool:

[LSUBigL]

I still don't know how to pronounce "Riffe"

Does it rhyme with "Life" or "Sniff"? For you grammarians, is the "i" in "Riffe" long or short?

[ROCK BOTTOM]

Riffe = Life

[Wet Spot]

Close Rock, Riffe=strife (for the viscious fishes)

Thanks for the calming words Mike. Do you use the Aimrite ice pick tip on your Wong?? How do you get the tip back through the fish?? I NORMALY don't carry a full roll of duct tape with me underwater...

[LSUBigL]

heh heh.....you said "Wong"

[rigdvr]

I have 2 of the aimrite tips but use them when freediving as the only wat to get them out is to unclip the shooting line and pull it all through. For scuba you will be better of with the riffe. The aimrite tip is actually an Alexander clone and is a very tried and true tip...among freedivers. For some reasons one of mine bent where the cable enters the tip:confused: and I need to send it to Rick for him to look at.

[LSUBigL]

I just talked to the shop owner and he said it's impossible to hip load an MT3, but that you have to hip load it to a resting notch, then chest load it the rest of the way. If you have to do that with all 3 bands, then it seems like that would take forever.

He also said that and MT2 can be chest loaded from the get go.

thoughts on this from MT owners???

[Dangerous]

Looking at several of my guns, it looks like 12" to 14" from the butt end to the insertion point of the shaft into the trigger housing is the magic number for hip loading. My MT 4 is ~ 8 inches. The rear plastic butt is about 4" so does anyone know a plastic fabricator that can make a new butt that is 8" instead of 4". The extra 4" on the rear would not bother me.

I guess in the alternative, a teak wood butt would be OK too.

[kitefisherman]

Originally posted by LSUBigL
I just talked to the shop owner and he said it's impossible to hip load an MT3, but that you have to hip load it to a resting notch, then chest load it the rest of the way. If you have to do that with all 3 bands, then it seems like that would take forever.

He also said that and MT2 can be chest loaded from the get go.

thoughts on this from MT owners???

I load all three 5/8" bands in about 10 seconds without rushing. It's all in the technique. If you do it the way that guy said, it will take longer. Instead grab the right end of the band with your right hand, push the gun away from you with your left hand on the handle resting the butt on your stomach or chest, and use both hands to pull the band all the way back to the tab - repeat 2 times. It takes no longer than loading any other 3 band gun.

I don't have the rest tabs on my shafts and don't miss them. I'm not an exceptionally large guy; I'm 5'8".

[LSUBigL]

Kite,

You're talking in reference to an MT3, right?

[kitefisherman]

Correct: the MT3 and the teak Hawaiian which have the same dimensions, band size, etc.

[rigdvr]

Kite is spot on about loading. The extra pain in loading is what gives you that extra couple of feet in range...

I used the rest tab when I first got my MT4 but once someone showed me the technique...Ive never used one since.

[LSUBigL]

Thanks fellas. I'll be placing my order for an MT3 today! Hopefully I'll get to test it out this weekend!

Big L

[Dangerous]

Kite,

What length bands, black or amber. I do it with the chest load pretty much as you describe but maybe I need a loading pad in the solar plexsus area like on the Riffe wet suits since I get a little sore afterward. (no pain/no gain??) I am using a 26" black 5/8" with a 9" dacron wishbone on the no rest stop shafts.

Loking at the band length, ~ 46" from muzzle to notch, for 300 % take 1/3 = 15.33 X 2 since it doubles = 30.66 minus the 9 inch wishbone divided in 2 (4.5") = a 26" rubber band that will streach 300% when loaded. I have noticed, although everyone says there is no diference, that black rubber is harder to pull back. Maybe I need to switch to amber. I think the standard is a 27" black rubber.

I can pull it but it seems like it takes more effort than it should - but it does shoot with authority.

Will

[kitefisherman]

Dangerous,

I am using 3 amber 24" x 5/8" bands on my Riffe Hawaiian, and 2 black 24" x 9/16" bands on my MT3. They are the stock Riffe bands although I believe that the original equipment on both guns is the 24" x 9/16" bands. Both guns are of the same dimensions.

You must be shooting a teak No ka Oi or an MT4 since I get a 41.5" measurement from muzzle to farthest notch on both guns.

I certainly share your pain in the solar plexus; however, I use my Hawaiian primarily as an East Coast line gun so I don't have to reload as often as I would in the MG. The MT3 (with its enclosed track) is usually shot as a freeshaft gun with a single band so it's not as hard on my chest and is quick to reload.

Can't really comment on black vs. amber although I've recently bought a set of black bands for my Hawaiian but have yet to install them as the current amber bands are still shooting fine.

[rigdvr]

the riffe black vs amber bands arent any different really. Its when you get into other bands where it becomes noticable.

If the chest pain is getting to you, stick a mouse pad in your wetsuit where you typically load. Makes all the difference in the world.

[LSUBigL]

3 wraps on the MT3 or 2? What is the effective shooting range of 3 wraps? of 2 wraps?

I've heard it's different to wrap the cable on a Riffe? How do you wrap the cable for a riding rig? Any tips would be appreciated?

Thanks,
Big L

[kitefisherman]

With standard line, 2 wraps gives you 13.5', 3 wraps gives you 20'. Don't know anything about cable.

[LSUBigL]

I went with 2 wraps of 3/32 cable (7-19 aircraft grade aluminum, 1000 pound) and a 3 foot section of riding rig, giving me about 15 feet of range. I think that will be enough for starters. I'll add more if I become wicked good.

Is there any kind of Native American "no wind" dance that I can do to keep the seas calm for this weekend?

[Baxter]

I think the safest bet is to play hooky or call in sick tomorrow or Thursday. It seems recently the conditions around here always want to degrade on the weekend.

[LSUBigL]

they're not too good right now....lots of wind!!! I will be playing hooky one of these Fridays coming soon!!

[Van Smooth]

Originally posted by LSUBigL
Essentially, the question is this, "Is the Riffe MT worth the extra $140 bones?"


Absolutely.

[lukepaige]

I have the MT3 like I said before and I load it from the hip. I can't stand putting the butt end in my stomach/chest trying to load the fuker. I cock 2 bands for smaller fish, 3 bands for medium range, and 4 bands for the big truck drivers and also when the other fish are pretty far out there. Don't buy that shit about not being able to cock the gun on your hip, my MT2 is actually harder to load than the 3, explain that to me.

[LSUBigL]

I got the MT3, and we'll see how tough it is. Unfortunately, my job has kept me away from the gym lately so I'm turning into a big ball of dough.

I don't have the muzzle that allows four bands. That sounds like a future investment.

[LSUBigL]

Used the Riffe this weekend. It was sweet. Laid waste to a 30 pound drum with it and the spear went half way through him with 2 bands. I noticed how quiet it was, which was great. I can't wait to get out there and shoot some big stuff with it!!

[LASeaCat]

I started spearfishing with JBL's and have used them for years. They have recently improved the muzzles, slides and triggers. I don't have a beef with them. (I've even been shot with one!) However, the Riffe's are superior weapons. I compare them to a Mossberg and a Bennelli. Both will kill monster living things, but if I could, I would own the later. I use a Metal Tech 4 and 5 (because I believe bigger is better!) However, the 5 is only good for open shots and can be cumbersome in a crowded rig. I know several that shoot with #3 sizes in wood and metal and get big fish. Ice pick tips are the best for taking big fish in rigs and they can help save shafts. If you are rather new to the sport, get one of the Riffe rear handle models size #3 or 4 (this choice may save you some teeth!) I have the LA State Scuba Record for Tuna taken with a JBL 450 Magnum (127#).

[LSUBigL]

You shot a tuna on Scuba? Where?

[ROCK BOTTOM]

Lyon,

The question is "You got shot? Where?"

Zz

[LSUBigL]

or "Who Shot You? Why?"

[LASeaCat]

Actually in the West Delta area. Probably 10 miles northwest of the Lumps. 1993. Had worked all night, had to go diving. About midday and I was dragging ass. Let the other divers go before me. I was watching them shoot at Grouper at 150 feet and I was at 90 feet in a less congested area of the rig. All of a sudden, just as when you feel someone walk up on you but you don't see them, I turned a there he was. He swam behind me from my right. I turned to the left and started kicking. Just as I was about to take a pot shot, he slowed and with three more hard kicks, I nailed him. Forgeting about being towed off, I immediately grabbed him and we took a quick tour of the rig before I could bring him under control. I got to the boat while the others were still down. I tried to get him in the boat but I was exhausted. I tied him to a cleat, got another gun and jumped back in behind the boat to protect the Tuna from sharks (he was bleeding badly) while waiting for help. The rest is history.

Went back two weeks later and saw another smaller one on the same rig but on the outside. The water was dirty this time and I did not get a shot off. I often times see Tuna on the outside of the rigs. I got a shot off this year and would have landed one about 80 lbs. if I would have had two wraps of cable on my Riffe. My shaft stopped about a foot short. (I use only 1 wrap of cable on my Metal Tech 4 for the rigs. It's kind of like hunting with a shotgun for close quarters instead of a rifle. My MT5 has two wraps.) Go to my web site to see the picture. I am not that schooled at Spearboard enough to attach a photo!?!?!

[LASeaCat]

LSUBigL,

Don't be in a hurry to use 4 bands. Get use to what you have. I have not yet found a good method of stringing all 4 bands using the cheater stop and I seem not to be strong enough or coordinated enough to load my MT5 without the cheater stop! Besides, unless you practice, you probably won't be able to hit anything at the range you will get with 4 bands. The metal muzzle is a nice addition though. In the future, if you have the dough, get the wood models!

[LSUBigL]

Awesome story. I've never heard of guys seeing tuna at rigs. I thought that was all done at the lump or rip. Was he swimming slow or did you just get a great shot off?

I'm not worried about the MT3 being underpowered. I only used two bands because I didn't see myself having a need for 3 on my last trip. I'll be loading 3 next snapper season though so I can take some long distance shots on them (I have 2 wraps of cable). And I want to be sure to drive it through a big AJ if one swims by.

What is your website?

[KJNDIVER]

I think its this one Lyon,

http://members.cox.net/laseacat/Index.htm

[LASeaCat]

Thanks for the help KJNDiver. That's it. I plan to update it more during the winter with all the summer stuff. It's been tough mixing work and diving lately so the web site had to suffer!

One thing that I noticed about Tuna is that they look like they are not moving even when they are hauling ass! Two of the four that I saw seemed to slow to check me out. The other two were into chasing Hardtails and didn't even notice me.

I plan to Freedive the Lumps when the Tuna gather in the Feb/March time frame. I have not yet had the opportunity to Freedive using a bouy. All my skin diving is shooting and holding on. If you get a bad shot and have nothing to grab on, there goes your riding rig! I can skin to about 50 foot as long as I don't have to haul an 80 pounder back to the surface!

I am hoping to bring Chad and Sheri out with me! He owes me for the Rig diving lessons!!

[LASeaCat]

Even though this photo is 1993 vintage, I still have that wet suit. (Don't fit in it anymore!) Wet Spot and lots of LA divers use jeans and a shirt to dive in. I find that too bulky. I don't like anything hanging. I dive with Shark Skin bottoms and a Riffe top in the summer, a shorty in the fall and a 1/4-3/16 combo in the winter. (Try wearing a pair of wet Levi's and you'll see what I mean!) I dove the St. Pete Open with a shorty.:o

[LSUBigL]

Nice Fish!! Lot's of steaks!! That's a nice web site as well. Free diving the lump sounds interesting but I'm not sure that I'm ready for that. It might be neat to just swim down there and check things out, but I don't know about shooting anything. that sounds a bit nuts!