Jug Line Practices

[Steel Shootin']

I'd like to start a thread on how you handle a jug line from the time that the dive spot is jugged.

I think it's safe to say that everyone follows the jug line to depth, although I have to admit breaking away from the jug line on more than one occassion. That occured either by accident (temporarily diverted), or intentionally, thinking I saw the ledge and would kick my way down. Having then lost the spot on a few of these occassions, I now religiosly stay on the jug line during the descent.

What I'm asking here is after you've desceneded, how do you handle the jug line.? Specifically,

1. Do you pick it up and move it to the spot you want it;

2. If it's on the bottom of the ledge, do you move it to the top;

3. Do you use your jug line as a hybrid "gear line," placing clips or shackles on it in the event you want to clip-off your gun and/or stringer for the ascent?

4. Do you attempt to turn your dive at the jug line, so you'll have it for your ascent?

5. Any other tid-bits about your jug configuration that might be unique.

[dlock]

what type of jug/line do you use? what size line do you have on your jug? We just go down our anchor line. I can definitely see where a separate line would be beneficial.

[f94gator]

1. Do you pick it up and move it to the spot you want it;

2. If it's on the bottom of the ledge, do you move it to the top;

We usually leave it right where it is. If it's close to the ledge, we usually don't bother. If it's far away, by the time we're at the ledge, who wants to go back and move it? Although I do like that idea.

3. Do you use your jug line as a hybrid "gear line," placing clips or shackles on it in the event you want to clip-off your gun and/or stringer for the ascent?

Nope

4. Do you attempt to turn your dive at the jug line, so you'll have it for your ascent?
If it works out that way, great, but if I'm on a good spot away from the line, why waste the air heading back when you can use it shooting more fish.

[inletsurf]

I usually leave the jug line on the top of the ledge so it doesn't hang up when we retrieve it. I hardly ever carry the jug line around, mainly because of gun, bag, lob net, etc... too much stuff.

We have a secondary poly-line with float, about 8' of it at the bottom between the weight and main line. On this line we have 1. A small float which keeps the line vertical and keeps it away from ledge snags, etc...
2. clips for extra gear you mentioned.

[Steel Shootin']

Dave, we typically don't anchor. We deploy a buoy over the ledge or wreck, and then when the divers are ready the boat heads back to the buoy, and the divers roll off and follow the weighted buoy line down to the bottom. All the divers wear dive alerts, and when they surface, if the boat hasn't already spotted them, they sound the alert and the boat comes to them.

[Steel Shootin']

Originally posted by inletsurf
On this line we have 1. A small float which keeps the line vertical and keeps it away from ledge snags, etc...

I like the idea of the float. It would also seem to serve as a good way to locate your jugline at the end of the dive if you wanted to clip your stringer, gun, or other gear. Also agree with the logic of putting it at the TOP of the ledge.

[Reef Raider]

I try to stay in the area of the jug most of the time .If you don't you end up being one of those people that come up far off it and the boat has to chase you down if they can see you ( big seas or sun at your back).If someone is going to play Capt. Kirk and go where no one has gone before they should have made that the dive plan before the dive not during it!If its a drift dive they should take the jug with them or trail some thing .
I would move the jug line for differant reasons like low vis maybe move it closer to the edge so its found easy or if the spot is to be a back dive, to keep the jug from draging away in a stiff current.

As for some thing differant try putting a chumb block cage about 10 ft up on your jug line that way the fish are in the action when you get there . Now I don't want to hear the shark shit either !

[dlock]

cool stuff, Thanx for the input guys.

[inletsurf]

Yeah, the float really works well both for making the line always point up, and for visual purposes. At first we used a dense styrofoam type float, but the friggin triggerfish ate the hell out of it. Then we used the dense closed cell commercial type floats for nets (about 3-4" long) and it worked great. The pressure at 100 fsw will compresses it a little, but they always pop back into shape at surface.

BTW we always drift too--never anchor. We're out anywhere from 15-20 miles, where there's a lot of current. We find the reef, work it a little to either side to investigate it a little on the bottom recorder, and then drop the buoy on the right spot. We then keep the GPS map on track mode and zoomed in so whoever is on the boat can always know if the buoy is drifting, or if it remains anchored on the spot (which is also our first check before anyone gets in the water). We have had surface currents so bad out there before, that it took an anchor ball to keep a commercial sized buoy afloat (which is unnerving). That in itself presents a problem, where sometimes current pulls your weight along the bottom and the only way to find the ledge is to follow the drag track in the sand, which happened to me before and it sucks. That's why we always check the buoy drop with the GPS to make sure it remains put before a diver gets in the water.

I agree 100% Reef Raider. Sometimes if we catch some bait or bonito or something on the surface, I'll either put it in a chum bag cliped to the buoy line and send it down, or take a bonito, slice em up good and tie the tail to the weight clip, then send it down. A good fresh bloody bonito does wonders. They never see you coming from above.

We also have made our own little buoy contraption out of PVC and commercial marker floats. It works well. That's about all I can think of.

[ScottCarullo]

I'm sure what I'm about to say lots of people will disagree with, but its what I believe.

First of all lets clarify - one or two divers. We always dive alone, I don't want anyone near me with a powerhead in bad vis, I don't care who they are unless they are right on my butt the whole dive just watching. Anything else is crazy.

Ok, now we have established ONE target under the water. I wouldn't dive with anyone that uses a jug to locate a diver, that is nuts (at least for conditions where I dive out of canaveral). There is a million reasons why a diver and a jug are in two different places I don't care what kind of jugging system you use. Maybe the line broke, maybe the weight is being dragged (by tide or mantaray etc) maybe the tide is too strong and the jug ends up going under after a few minutes etc etc.... Anyone who expects a diver to only surface next to the jug is asking for trouble.

I've tried all types, the best jug I've found is a commercial closed-cell foam type with a hole down the middle, its what the long-liners use to float their radar reflectors - they last forever and you can wrap the line around them. We use about 10lbs of lead - anything less can be drug very easily. I'd rather the jug sink than be drug off from where I put it - at least then its obvious to anyone the jug isn't going to help. Next, only parachute cord works the best. Anything larger is too much drag, anything smaller will kill your hands pulling 10lbs up from 140 feet or even less.

Next, we usually don't jug a spot. Jugging does make me more comfortable when the vis is very poor, or the tide is screaming - but thats it. In my opinion if you use a jug for more than the initial rapid descent its too much. There is one knot 15 feet above the bottom so you don't crash into somehting in bad vis. Heck sometimes we follow a 20ounce glow-jig down on the 130lb spiderwire on the fishing pole. The diver should enter the water descending as soon as the weight hits the water - thats your most accurate descent - right after marking it on the scope. If you know how to anchor (most people don't) then you can drop you diver in good vis right on the spot. You may have to drop him 150 yards away from the spot for him to hit it in tide, but we do this all day every day when we fish in 200-300 feet of water with up to 4 knot tide. You may have to drop your line a quarter mile away from the small rock you want to fish taking the tide and wind drift into consideration... It is very challenging but it how I fish every trip - more fish because most people can't hit the small marks with the most fish.

Here is the deal... You need to understand how to read your electronics like a professional. Your divers life depends on it. I follow my diver (and he, me) by looking at the color bottom machine (and you need a good one) and following them. I can tell where he is on the ledge or wreck, which way the tide is moving at what depth and how fast (by seeing the bubble trail on the color machine) and I simply follow him... He's just a huge fish and I can just about mark a minnow. No matter where he is in the water column (I let him decide where he wants to go), how far away the jug is (could be a mile away) doesn't matter - follow your diver under the water with your electronics and be right there when he surfaces. If you can't do that then go practice. I would NEVER dive with anything less, certainly not someone who expects me to pop up next to some jug...

ps. What would you guys do it the jug started moving away from the spot, whether its with the tide or not? Follow the jug and leave the diver, or forget the jug and try to find the spot? Either way - very bad idea if you can't follow him realtime under the water. We never anchor, it is routinely necessary to ward off other stupid boats by heading right for them until they turn, then we turn with them and keep them a safe distance from our diver (and our secret spots). It has been necessary several times to be VERY aggressive on the boat with a diver down - I'll run into someone before I let them drive over my diver (never lost at chicken yet), anytheing less I've failed him and he's counting on me.

Great thread topic - something simple but very important.

Scott

[Speargun]

....it is routinely necessary to ward off other stupid boats by heading right for them until they turn, then we turn with them and keep them a safe distance from our diver. It has been necessary several times to be VERY aggressive on the boat with a diver down...
Just a few weeks ago, I went out on a friends boat and we ended up diving the artificial reef out of Crystal River. When we arrived, there was another boat in the area about a half mile away line fishing. We anchored, hoisted the diver down flag and got wet.
There were 4 divers in the water and 2 non divers on the boat. All 4 divers stayed within 100 to 150 feet of our boat while down. After I had drained my without finding anything big enough to shoot, I found our anchor line and started my ascent. As I broke the surface, there was a strangers face staring down at me and cussing me for scaring away all of the fish on "his" spot.
Thinking that I had drifted WAY off course I looked around for my boat. I found it. It was about 100 feet directly in front of this other guys boat.
Once I was back on board, the guy that stayed topside said that these other guys had motored over, dropped anchor, and began raising hell about us being in "their" spot. They were told that there were divers down, but these guys didn't care. They just want to bitch about us "stealing" "their" fish.

OK. It's not really about jugs, but the last post just reminded me about it.
.....steping down from my soapbox...

[Steel Shootin']

Originally posted by ScottCarullo
I wouldn't dive with anyone that uses a jug to locate a diver, that is nuts (at least for conditions where I dive out of canaveral).
Just to clarify, I never implied that the boat operator should use the jug to locate a diver. I can't recall but maybe one or two times that I have ever seen a diver come up right next to the jug. I can honestly say that I have never personally ascended right next to the jug line, but I'm not far, either. So, yes, if you had someone topside that was tunnel visioned into thinking the jug was the magic spot where diver's will surface, that would not be smart.

The conversation concerning the way the boat operator views the jug is totally different than the original question, but a good point and certainly relevant. Inlet made an important point, which is to ALWAYS mark the jug on your gps. Some guys figure that since they got the number in their gps already, there is no need to enter anything. Wrong. Always hit the MOB at the point of your jug. Like he said, you can use it to confirm that the jug is not adrift before divers go in. The boat operator can also use it to confirm that it's still where it originally was. If you had someone following around a drifting jug, without confirming it's spot, that would not be wise. When I have someone on my boat for the first time, I confirm they understand the plotter.

As far as attempting to follow a diver on a bottom machine, I wouldn't do that. For one thing, you said yourself you would never hunt around someone with a powerhead. People get seperated. So which diver do you follow? I'm not saying your wrong; maybe that's a good plan in the high currents you guys face over there. Here, I personally use the jug as a reference of the area the divers will likely be in (confirmed by the GPS and Bottom machine). I try to watch bubbles, but guys get serpated.

Every diver off my boat wears a dive alert, and everyone should have a safety sausage and working flash light. I keep a flashlight in my pocket at all times, in case I'm lost and people are looking for me in the dark (also to look under ledges).

Personally, I do not think it is unsafe for a boat operator to use the jug as his primary reference of his divers, at least for the type of diving we do over here. Again, as you intermittantly idle back to the jug, just confirm it is still where it is supposed to be. If it's not, go back to the spot on the GPS, and pick-up the jug later. It would be unusual for a diver to stray so far off the ledge that he comes up far from the jug. Even if it's a long, meandering ledge, divers should know to do a 180 turn and head back to the jug.

One other point. If seas are heavy, as in 3ft or higher, divers should stay as close to the jug as possible. Two things pose a challenge to the guy on the boat. First, divers get lost in the waves. How many times have you come up as a diver and not seen the boat anywhere, and then a wave flattens out and it's not far at all! Second, the noise of the wind and seas. May not be able to hear the dive alert as well.

If the plan is to move the lead to the "sweet spot" of the ledge or wreck, the guy topside needs to know this so he remarks the jug on the gps, instead of assuming it drifting off its spot.

[greyface]

Depends who I'm with. On some boats, we jug the ledge, check the current/wind, go back to the jug, and hit the water. Captain stays on the ledge. Once at the surface, we either use the dive alert, or a sausage. A coupla times, on my neighbor's boat, we had no boat bitch. (I know, I know) We jug the spot, anchor on the spot, and drop a decent/ascent line off the stern, as well as a floating tag line. We simply do not lose sight of the stern line. Period. Last time we did this, our stern line was about 5' away from a 10'X10'X10' concrete kunction box, slap fll of fish. Talk about shooting fish out of a barrel!:D My buddy's rock point caught hell, though!

[Steel Shootin']

[i]A coupla times, on my neighbor's boat, we had no boat bitch. (I know, I know) We jug the spot, anchor on the spot, and drop a decent/ascent line off the stern, as well as a floating tag line. [/B]
You just gave me an idea for a new thread. :D

[Reef Raider]

Well said Scott some things change from east to west but there is allways some thing to learn from the other guy. If there is other boats powering though by all means stay by your divers. But all of this shoud be part of a dive plan agreed.

[ScottCarullo]

You can keep all the jugs, sausages, dive alerts, wistles etc...

The only thing I'll ever count on is my boat capt. staying on top of me by watching and folowing me on the scope. Bubbles take a long time to rise from 100 feet which is avg depth - just follow them on the scope - its easy once you have the experience.

Which target to follow? As I mentioned, if there is more than one diver in the water hunting like we do - its too many. Only follow one diver because he is the ONLY diver.

Why mark the jug with MOB? You already have the spot you are diving programmed in, thats how you got there. If you see your target on the scope the number should be identical to where you throw the jug - why bother, you should already be navigating there.

Scott

[Screen Name]

Thanks for permitting me to keep my jugs and whistle, I'm kind of fond of them.

Saying you can follow the diver with the recorder seems a little to me like saying your recorder will take you to the loran #. It will, if you're there already!

What action do you take the day that someone loses the trail of the diver? What do you do when you have two divers in the water? We do that just about every trip.

I believe that there are a number of good ways to do things, and its good to know them all, and use the ones that make sense depending on the circumstances. I also believe that in spearfishing, even though you have a plan or intention, things may change once the dive begins. A sharp captain knows when you are towing a jug or if it is drifting off the spot. If I'm diving and you lose my bubbles, I hope you stay on the spot and not stray too far looking for me. I hope you try to observe my bubbles so you dont run over me (I've had that happen). I hope once you find me you dont back the boat toward me or aim it at me because you realize that transmissions can get stuck.

Good discussion here. Doesn't take much to entertain us spearfishermen.

John

[Spear One]

Hey ScottCarullo, Did you realize that if you only have one guy in the boat, your life is just about totally dependent on his health while you are in the water?

Could he slip and injure or knock himself out?

Could he have a heart attack?

Could he faint or fall unconscious from medication or low blood sugar or Diabetes?
Even for a short time?

Can he navigate by Loran or GPS? Are you leaving a guy in the boat who is a total novice as to electronics and relying simply on his ability to sight follow your bubbles?

Are you using the MOB feature to orient the guy in the boat as to where you entered the water?

I dive solo too, and frequently leave only one man in the boat. If he is experienced I will venture away from my jug area. If he is not overly experienced I will stern anchor the boat and make sure I return to the marker buoy and ultimately the boat! It is my responsibility to return to the boat.

If I do get away from the boat the guy in the boat can easily come and get me because I left the boat stern anchored (ENGINE LEFT RUNNING)and he does not have to retrieve the anchor in order to move the boat!

STERN ANCHORING CAN BE ONE OF THE BEST SAFETY STRATEGIES WHILE DIVERS ARE IN THE WATER!

[Steel Shootin']

Originally posted by ScottCarullo
Why mark the jug with MOB? You already have the spot you are diving programmed in, thats how you got there.
I wouldn't mark it with MOB if we jugged right on the programmed number. However, at least in my experience, it's not at all uncommon to jug a little off the number you ran to. For whatever reason, maybe the best show is off the number, or you see another part of the ledge that looks a little better, or your buddy gave you the # and his machine is a little off. I'd say only about 25% of the time am I jugging exactly where the original waypoint was. That's why I suggest using the MOB if necessary.

I'll also say this, I think everyone should have a dive alert. I carry an extra one on my boat, and if someone doesn't have one, I ask them to use it.

[ScottCarullo]

Hey SpearOne...

I never said anything about having an inexperienced boat capt. I don't bother getting wet unless he is a professional where I dive. Anything less I just go fishing and don't worry about it. Diving with someone who would run you over (for any reason) is setting your standards kinda low don't you think?

Yes, the guy in the boat could die, pass out, or otherwise render himself usless. So could the diver, do you keep a rope tied to yours? We have to confine the scope of this within the realm of reason or we could spend eternity talking about freak accidents.

And... what if I lose his bubbles? I won't. I've done this for over 10 years. I agree things do happen and everyone needs to have a plan when it does, someday it will. But for discussion purposes we assume the boat and capt. remain in good operating condition or we're beating our heads against the wall :)

Also, my opinion and experience is limited to the area I frequent which is extreme in all areas including depth, wind, current, visiblity, miles from shore etc... I'm not talking about 60' of water with light wind, slack tide and great vis a few miles from shore. More like 130' of water, 3 knots tide, wind 10-15 knots and 15' vis 35 miles from shore. Night and day difference between the two.

Bottom line - you and your diver need only be comfortable with your plan. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. There is more than one way to skin a cat, just make sure you have your bases covered (and good life insurance).

I'm new to this forum so I'm not sure how to make a survey, but how about this one - it would be interesting:

If you had to choose one way for your boat capt. to have the boat ladder handy when you surfaced which would it be:

1) Have the capt. stay where the jug is, its the divers responsibility to surface there.
2) Have the capt. continue to navigate the boat to stay on the MOB entry point of the diver.
3) Have the capt. drive around in the area of the jug waiting for a floating sausage or whistle/alert etc.
4) Have the capt. understand all of the above, but uses his electronics (assuming they are adequate) to follow the diver taking into consideration the wind, current, original entry point, etc.

My dive buddy is a licensed USCG captain and a commercial diver, so I guess I have been spoiled by his acquired skills. I know he'll be there when I surface regardless of the circumstances within reason.

Here is worst case scenario (and its happened). Engines die while following diver on bottom machine. Drop anchor and let out all 600' of line tie it off. Drop sea anchor or equiv like 5 gal bucket worst case to make anchor scope descend into current. Let out additional 600' of line out the back of the boat tied to anchor ball. Diver comes up he can swim parallel to current and grab the line.
.....just an idea if you ever get in this situation. Actually, that would be a very useful thread. Emergency scenarios and ways to recover best from them.... I've typed enough, I'll let someone else go there if they want.

Scott

[Spear One]

ScottC, I wasn't bustin your stones on you diving practices! Everyone must dive according to the conditions thay are faced with on a given dive!

Your opinions are greatly appreciated and we can all learn from someone with your considerable experience. experienced captains sharing this type of information is one of the greatest things about Spearboard.

Welcome aboard!

[FredT]

In that we dive a buoy, not an anchor line. If doing multiple drops it's way faster than playing with the hook, and a lot easier. There are limitations to the method that need to be well understood, and some advantages.

The limitations include the surface current and sea state. Screaming surface current and a rough sea state means it's hard to find the hairy coconuts when they surface away from the buoy. This isn't a problem unless the seas are too rough for the boat captain to reliably find the divers. On a 17' Whaler that marginal sea condition may be 2' seas, on a 30' boat with a tuna tower the limit to acceptable sea state goes up considerably. Sea wavelength also makes a difference. Looking for a coconut in 5' x 17 second swell is a LOT different than looking for one in 3' x 5 second chop. A ripping surface current may take divers farther than otherwise marginal seas conditions would allow for reliable diver recovery.

When diving buoys it's best to have a weight that'll sink the buoy, and a line that floats to keep it up off the bottom. It's also a good idea to have a range of buoys to choose from. A buoy that'll pull under at the upper end of your predetermined marginal currents is a good thing. A large 2 gallon heavy polypro or PE laundry detergent or bleach bottle is a good float if coupled to a 20 pound clump with braided 1/8 polypro or spectra line, or use a gallon jug with a 10 LB clump, with a smaller diameter line. It is also a good thing to have several buoys premade at decade depths. If tossing the buoy in 65' of water (low side of ledge) use a premade set with 70' of line over 65 to 75 use the 80' set, etc. This keeps the line drag and offset to a minimum, it also makes for easily updating the mark or numbers.

Our basic rules are to never touch the line, either way. We often drop on single car bodies or other very small structure. Not only do these things hold lots of fish in proportion to their size, it's easy for a buddy team to properly cover them in a hurry and they often hold lots of bugs. If you've ever seen an airplane wing with the skin corroded off "restored" to full profile by shovelnose bugs hiding in the support ribbing it is something that you'll never forget, and you won't forget the lift bag for the goody bag again either.

When diving off a larger boat with several buddy teams in good conditions it works well to mark multiple spots or to mark a long ledge in about 300' to 600' foot intervals with multiple buoys. The boat then comes back down the line dropping diver pairs at each buoy. When diving a long ledge (usually old beach lines) by prearrangement all divers turn _____ so the ledge is completely covered, and no team sees any other team. If the fish and bugs are scarce on your section, once you've worked your section of the ledge (by finding the next team's drop point) come on up and use the other half of your tank on the next dive. Buoy diving can mean an extra three to five drops on a full day trip compared to hooking up for each drop.

BTW on a long ledge drop the take is the TEAM’S take, and is shared out appropriately. It doesn’t make any difference WHO gets the fish or bug on the boat, just that it gets on the boat.

[ScottCarullo]

Hey Fred, thanks for the info.

It's interesting how different approaches are taken to maximize the environment/conditions of different areas. Whatever works right!

I have several jug lengths to choose from too, kinda frustrating throwing over a 150 footer on an 80' piece isn't it...

I also believe in a TEAM effort as well. Anyone that goes in my boat expects to split all the expenses and all the prey. Nothing good comes from creating competition on the same boat. That way you know the capt. won't drop you somewhere he's just trying to figure out whats down there vs. a hot spot stacked with fish he's saving for himself :)

Scott

[Brad B]

Scott, its been great hearing your comments on the board. As a newcomer to this sport I have found that every area has its own way of doing things and the people diving each area might be able to learn from each other.Since I started spearing I have done the MG's, West Coast and Sebastian.Most of my hook/line experience was out Port Canaveral, but back then we started fishing at the very deepest levels achievable by rec divers.A great technique I learned from LOB was to mark your spot with one bouy,then pull back over the piece and throw a second bouy as soon as you mark the piece.The divers roll over as soon as the second bouy is deployed and they follow it to the bottom. We hit the piece every time in 90'or so and most of these ledges were pretty small. On my West Coast trip one bouy was deployed and both myself and others had to swim a while to find the rock.If you have been diving the Port ya gotta go on a MG trip.You are obviously dialed into the Port and are kicking fish ass, but man its cool to drop down with 50+ foot vis and fish everywhere you look.

[ScottCarullo]

Hey Brad...

You should have see our dives last week, there was fish all around too the vis was about 60' -- Winter is my best friend as far as fishing / diving out here!

I would like to have the pleasure of experiencing other diving areas but its hard to stray far when I am dial in here and have my own boat to go in vs driving somewhere and going with someone else in unfamiliar area/boat/people.

I find most people I've been around have their buddies they routinely go fishing or diving with and rarely venture from the standard roster.

Scott

[Brad B]

From what I hear 60' of vis at the Port is great, even better if surrounded by fish.It can be great getting in a nice comfortable rut with the same people and places.Thats what I did when I bottom fished a lot.But since I am new to diving I have had to take rides where I can get them and I have had a lot of fun sampling the different places and techniques.A lot of the guys I have met have developed buddies on both coasts because if the East Coast is blown out the West Coast might not be.

[seastalker]

Scott we need to get together and make a run out on my boat, your boat, or two boats. We dive year round...as Brad mentioned we also dive both coasts. We are looking at Saturday west coast or possible Sunday east coast based on the weather and buoy reports....We have 5 wanting to go to the west coast so most likely have to drag my boat over and run two boats, if so I have a spot open if you want to join.