Pony bottle 19 oe 30?

[FOWLER267]

I have a spare reg and the redundant air supply "DUH" lightbulb finally clicked on...

I'm thinking about a pony. I figure that a 30 would be better if both are un- noticable. I would eventually like to work on some of the deeper tech stuff and I figure that if you ever need it; a 30 would be a blessing even if you can make it up on a 19... The wee bit of extra air might allow for a short safety stop.

Whats the opinion of those who use a pony and especially those who have tried both sizes?

[jfjf]

A 19 is probably enough if you are going to be doing no-deco dives. If you are going to be doing planned deco of more than a few minutes, then a 30 (or larger) would probably be better.

[SpearMax]

Whats the opinion of those who use a pony and especially those who have tried both sizes?

Generally, I think 30 cubes is not needed for emergency bail-out, unless you are an air hog and pretty strong. But, if you feel better with it, then do it. I use 19 cubers for emergency air bail-out which I did once from 200 feet. I use other 19 cubers for deco bottles requiring only 15-20 minutes of 80% oxygen at 30 feet or above. For much deeper stuff I have 45 cube deco bottles. For trimix dives to 300 feet or more, I have two 80 cube bottles for travel gas and deco gas. It does boil down to personal preference and factors like your SAC rate and your emergency strategy.

[snokat]

Tony and Jim are on the mark with a 19cf bottle, you will be heading to the surface straight away if your main goes haywire.
I just bought a 30cf myself, they do make a better deco bottle, but mainly for the versatility. Seems that dives in excess of 100swf are becoming more of the norm for me since moving to FLA and some of the wreck options require some staging as well.
After 39 years of diving I guess it was time to eliminate a variable, now 140-160swf doesn't have quite the cause for alarm.....just don't tell my wife.:thumps:
Back in my early days I dove twin 50 galvis when it was the only option between a 71 or twin 71s. It was nice to see 100s come out, if you have ever dove twins you know what I mean. When I bought my present HP100s they came with the Genesis valve that takes an H-valve.....I will NEVER do it though. The weight on a rolling deck is a real hand full, for caving it is a different story.
Bottom line is, it's all about minimizing the risk.
Last note, in 1969 I dove with one reg & one tank, now it's three regs and two gas supplies.

[mjphawk]

Here is a thread I started a while back with some good info. http://spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=30707

I dive a 19cu for a bail out bottle. I can't imagine lugging a 30cu if I didn't plan on doing any deco. Just a note, an 80cu tank with 500psi is 13cu of air. Its plenty of time to ascend from recreational depths and do a 3 min safety stop. I have the 19cu that I use for a bail out bottle and that is quivalent to a little over 700psi in an 80cu. I went with the 19 over the 13 because they are the same diameter just a little taller and the weight difference was negligible.

[HeadHunter]

Fowler,

The 30 CF is probably too large for the type of situation you're talking about. If it's a pita to wear and handle..chances are, you won't.

The 19 or 13 cf alum's are both a good choice for a BOB for normal rec diving.

Another option you might want to consider is the Luxfer 14. This is a 2015 psi alum tank, instead of the more common 3000 psi alum tanks. It's slightly smaller than a reg 19cf tank. The advantages are that it's about 2 lbs. more positive when either empty or full and weighs about 3 Lbs less on the boat than a 19. Also, it's easier to top off something to 2000 instead of 3000.

If you're diving a steel main and you're always negative, then the 14 might be a good choice. If you're diving an alum main, than maybe not.

Either the 13-14-19 would work for what you're trying to do...I'd borrow a few from a buddy or two and try them out for yourself. Whatever feels "right" is probably the way to go.

Make sure you go with a quality, easy to use attachment. Again, if it's a major pita to use..it'll end up not being used. I personally like the Zeagle pony straps..they've done an excellent job for us.

If you're doing strictly, rec depth, no staged deco diving....than I'd keep it full of whatever your deepest mix is.....if you dive air, than have air in your BOB. If you never dive over 32%, than 32% in the BOB would work. Keep it simple. Some guys will tell you to have higher O2 than your main contains in it....no....it's not supposed to be a stage bottle or a planned deco bottle....it's a BOB. If you're planning on doing staged deco or higher level O2 blow offs....than it's not a BOB and thats a whole diff story.

The last thing you want in a difficult time is trying to remember what mix you have in your BOB.....

Dan

[IRONHEAD]

Lot's of great advise Dan, I dive a 13cf with zeagle strap I love it. I have ascended from 120' and had 1500 psi still in it at the surface with a safety stop as well. this setup is plenty for a bail out bottle. if your doing deco then get a bigger bottle but if not get something you will actually want to dive. I dive my pony on all dives and I think if it was a 19 or 30 that wouldn't be the case because paired with a 120 it becomes a real beast in the boat suiting up especially in rougher seas. God forbid you have to lift it over the gunnels after a dive.

[mjphawk]

If you're doing strictly, rec depth, no staged deco diving....than I'd keep it full of whatever your deepest mix is.....

The last thing you want in a difficult time is trying to remember what mix you have in your BOB.....

Dan

Well there you have it from the man himself. I forgot to mention that. I keep air in my bottle. That way no matter how deep I am I know I am ok to breathe off of it. It also makes it really easy to convince the guys at the dive shops to top it off for free. :thumps:

I dive my pony on all dives and I think if it was a 19 or 30 that wouldn't be the case because paired with a 120 it becomes a real beast in the boat suiting up especially in rougher seas.

I don't necessarily completely agree with this statement. The 19 is only longer than the 13 and once attached to my tank I don't even notice it is there. I would have to look at the characteristics again, but I think it is only about 2lbs different which I took out of my BC. JMHO. I don't think I will ever regret having the extra volume of air.

[snokat]

Hey Mike, I mentioned versatility in my post. One more reason for ME was that in cases when using an 80 the 30 is ideal. I dive an 80 as a last tank on 3-tank or more dive trips.

[SpearMax]

Fowler, Dan brings up a good mix point. I only use air in my BOB, but I go very deep all the time. Like he said, I sometimes see guys with high mixes in these extra bottles with them thinking deco sometimes BOB other times. If you analyze dive accidents, breathing off the wrong mix at the wrong depth is a sure fire quick path to the grave. :eek:

[ObieWan2bWet]

My honest opinion, if your buying a bail out and going to be be spearfishing with it, then go back mounted and get a 19. The diff between a 13 and 19 is negligible in all categories except air volume, more is better.

Also IMHO, there's no reason to run anything but air in a bail out bottle. It only has one purpose, to get you safely to the surface under controlled ascent in an emergency OOA situation. Like Dan the man said, if you use it for anything else, than its not a BOB.

One other thing to mention is to occasionally use the bottle up on a last dive of the day at your safety stop, (just like you should with your safe second reg/octo) even better yet, once every handful of dives, do a mock OOA ascent on the bottle. Couple reasons to do this, 1- you actually keep the reg/first in good working order by using it, and any problems with the equipment are detected and fixed quickly, hopefully before you actually need it. 2- You become very comfortable with your emergency OOA procedures, and lastly by using it, you'll also keep fresh air in it by refilling it.

[jfjf]

I also wonder that if someone felt impending oxygen toxicity at depth, that immediately switching over to a pony filled with AIR, and pressing the "up" button might add a little bit of safety in this unlikley scenario?

[ObieWan2bWet]

I've personally never heard anyone talk about feeling an O2 tox coming on, (probably 'cause its hard to talk when your dead)... never had it happen to me, so I can't say from experience, but from everything I have read and been taught it happens in an instant with no time to react, just boom... lights out.

... and I thought it was the "easy" button... :D

[SpearMax]

I've personally never heard anyone talk about feeling an O2 tox coming on, (probably 'cause its hard to talk when your dead)... never had it happen to me, so I can't say from experience, but from everything I have read and been taught it happens in an instant with no time to react, just boom... lights out.

... and I thought it was the "easy" button... :D

Mike, you could have the symptoms other than convulsion. Remember the famous Acronym CONVENTID for oxygen toxicity signs and symptoms?

CON = Convulsion
V = visual impairment
E = Ears ringing
N = Nausea
T = Tingling
I = Irritability
D = Dizziness

I am going from pure memory here, but I think that is what each letter stands for. Obviously, it CON hits you first, you better hope a buddy is nearby. But, I (and people I know) have had one or two of the other signs and changed what I was doing immediately (e.g. go up in the water column).

Food for discussion, Tony

[ObieWan2bWet]

...

V = visual impairment
E = Ears ringing
N = Nausea
T = Tingling
I = Irritability
D = Dizziness

...



Damn, I "VENTID" all the time... I thought that was just from having teenagers... ;)

[Chad Carney]

I'm in agreement with all the previous statements about using a small air tank as a bail out. (It's also great for filling tires and such later.)

Dan's right, I hate wearing my 30 unless it's for deco diving.

And I'll add that if you do go a little tech later on, it's better to buy the right tank for that application at the time. For me that's when a 30 is perfect. If used with a HP100 or LP98 they sit level on the deck, nice and stable, when strapped to the primary tank. I wish they did with a HP120.

I've felt the tingling in the lips... not at depth, but at a deco stop after switching to an 80% mix. The bottom gas was mixed a bit too rich in error, and the MOD went a tad over the plan. Fortunately nothing was felt at depth.

Be careful!

Chad

[diligaf]

CON = Convulsion
V = visual impairment
E = Ears ringing
N = Nausea
T = Tingling
I = Irritability
D = Dizziness

I am going from pure memory here, but I think that is what each letter stands for. Obviously, it CON hits you first, you better hope a buddy is nearby. But, I (and people I know) have had one or two of the other signs and changed what I was doing immediately (e.g. go up in the water column).

Food for discussion, Tony

Tony… I think when I was a little younger and maybe a little more foolish… I experienced all the symptoms except for the big one. I’ve had my eye lids twitch uncontrollable, seen blue pok-a-dots, heard the sound of the waa-waa, felt like throwing-up, and I’ve felt more than a little grumpy down there. It’s a good thing only the good die young.:D

Oh well… I'll stop commemorating about my youth and get more on the topic – BOB. Nowadays I try to be a safe diver… proper equipment, bottom mixes, etc.

My opinion on a BOB is different than most… they are the CAUSE of many accidents or near accidents. Over and over again I’ve seen divers run their primary tank dry trying to get one last fish or lobster. After they run out of air they switch over to their pony… then the problems begin. Maybe they couldn’t find the regulator, the bottle was turned off and they couldn’t reach the valve, or the tank was empty. Then panic sets in and only God knows the outcome.

A BOB should be just that. If you don’t have the discipline to use it properly, don’t use one. I don’t have the discipline… so I don’t use one (I will use a deco bottle, but that is a different scenario).

[SpearMax]

A BOB should be just that. If you don’t have the discipline to use it properly, don’t use one. I don’t have the discipline… so I don’t use one (I will use a deco bottle, but that is a different scenario).

Dave, I agree. I ALWAYS try to come up with 500 to 1,000 pounds of bottom mix in my main tank. I do not rely on the BOB for anything other than bail out. I always make sure it is turned on at the begining of the dive day and leave it on all the time.

[jfjf]

My opinion on a BOB is different than most… they are the CAUSE of many accidents or near accidents. Over and over again I’ve seen divers run their primary tank dry trying to get one last fish or lobster. After they run out of air they switch over to their pony… then the problems begin. Maybe they couldn’t find the regulator, the bottle was turned off and they couldn’t reach the valve, or the tank was empty. Then panic sets in and only God knows the outcome.
.

I've seen it too, but in the scenario you describe, the CAUSE of such an accident is directly attributable to insufficient discipline not the presence of a BOB.

[HeadHunter]

All good points......

One of the main things about having/wearing a BOB system is that a lot of guys don't give it the attention that it must have. The BOB equipment should be kept up as well or better than your main gear. It should be of the same quality as your main gear. You should be as comfortable with using it as you are with your main gear.

A lot of guys will buy a small alum BOB tank and a set of pony straps...fine...good so far...then they screw the whole thing up by putting a 1980's Brut reg or something similar on it thats been laying around in the garage for years and years. They'll try it out and yep it works ok in the garage. But at depth, even Paris probably couldn't suck a breathful of air out of it in an emergency.

In that or a similar situation, where the equipment hasn't been properly maintained, you'd probably be better off without it, than with it.

Another good point was also brought up, it's human nature while spearfishing, that if you'd normally start up at 1000 BOBless, than some might begin to routinely not start up until 500(or less) when equipped with a BOB. Wrong. A BOB is not designed to be a "extend your dive tank", it's an emergency system designed to increase the odds of you surviving a real problem. If you wear a BOB system and run your main down to fumes on a rountine basis and ascend by BOBBING it, someday you're gonna be sorry..real sorry. Don't laugh, I've actually heard a guy brag about how many times he's had to switch to his BOB while shooting/stringing one more fish. Insanity.

One thing about open circuit diving, when you roll off the boat and are on the way down, if your primary reg isn't functioning right, odds are you'll usually know it pretty quick and have time to ascend and fix the problem. At depth, if you have to switch to a BOB, and it hasn't been properly maintained and the reg isn't real good, well....your problems just got a lot worse.

The decision to wear a BOB ot not is up to the individual diver. If you do choose to wear one...

Buy the right gear

Get comfortable with the gear

Practice with the gear

Maintain the gear

Practice some more

Safe diving...Dan

[IRONHEAD]

I think that everyone should have a bail out bottle personally and they should not use it to get more bottom time. I am usually having 500 to 1000 psi in my lp steels upon surfacing and never touch my pony. I also agree from time to time on your last dive you should go ahead and use the pony to ascend on just to make sure it is in good working order and to put some fresh air into it. I have the same reg on my pony as I breath on my primary tank but i did change out the 2nd stage with something drastically different so as to not get it confused. I was able to ebay off the normal second stage and replace it with a different 2nd stage for minimal cost. I think multi tasking like we do with no redundant air supply is just asking for trouble, it only takes getting preoccupied one time then taking that dreaded last breath and feeling the reg close up and it is game over.

[jfjf]

Now that we are all on the safety kick, another important issue is how and where the BOB second stage is mounted. Most hunters, it seems will back mount their bottle (rather than carry it under the arm as a stage bottle). I back mount my pony.

Around a year ago, we had a guy on the boat who had a problem underwater with his primary reg. while on a solo dive in 110 ft. He had rigged the second stage for his pony on the front of his BC using some type of screwy clip. I remember thinking that I should say something to him, but decided to mind my own business about how someone else riggs their safety gear.

When the sheet hit the fan, he was unable to unclip his second stage, he dumped his gun and it sounded like he panicked and took off swimming as fast as possible for the surface. He said that he somehow remembered hearing that you could breath a little off a standard BC inflator and he used this technique. He said that he just barely maintained conciousness and he had tunnel vision and was very dizzy and was freaking when he hit the surface. To make a long story short, he just barely made it up and his pony bottle did him no good.

After that incident, I decided to move my pony bottle second stage. It now sits on a neck lanyard and I only have to grab it and stick it in my mouth. There should be zero problem with deployment, when the time comes.

Previously, I had mounted the second stage on the front of the BC and used a plastic pinch clip to secure it. It included a break-away feature that would just snap a thin elastic band if someone really yanked on the regulator in a panic. I previously had thought that this configuration was ok, but after witnessing another near tradegy, I went for the "old school" necklace option.

It takes a while to get used to having the necklace on, particularly when you are getting out of the gear, but it seems to be the safest configuration for me, particularly for solo diving.

[Grin]

I agree with all. Just a week ago I witnessed my buddy (who will probably read this here) use his 19 to extend his bottom time. The next dive he didn't wear it due it being empty. On that next dive he couldn't stay down on his accent/safety stop due to the weight change(forgot to add a few extra lbs of lead due to the bottle/reg not being included in his dive settup), and he accended a little out of wack resulting in a headache+( I think mild DCS, I don't think he agrees/he says overexertion, I'm not sure! but feel the weight issue was the root and I think he agrees with that). It was a very easy thing to be overlooked. I agree, I didn't think about it either, until after the situation. I saw him pop up, then go back down, then he struggled to come up slow etc...
Anyway, I never use my pony for extra time(Yes, I admit I did it once or twice a long time ago when I first started wearing the thing / now I'm smart:D). I do need to use it upon my last dive more often, to just exercise the reg. I have a completely different second stage on my pony so I could never in a million years mistake it for my primary reg. And it's break pressure is set much higher, to prevent any freeflowing(I dive with the pony tank valve on). There is no mistaking my primary reg for my pony reg, as both the extra breathing drag and the difference of the 2nd stage itself. It's to bail me out, and I won't complain about the second stages, ease of breathing, if I need it.
I have a button gauge on the first stage, to check pressure easily before every dive. My settup is left in the "tank valve open" position all day. I have a cross connect gettup to top them off, and fill them from main tanks also. Since I have the valve on all day, and I take a few test breaths on occassion, the ponies need a topping off every once in a great while(like every couple months). I have a mixture of air and whatever I top the bottle off with, (probably somewhere around 23-28 mix).
A extremly important point that should not be forgotten or overlooked in this topic is: If you are down there, and you decide you're going to use your pony for extended time(not that you should) or if you decide to use it for a practice accent(a great idea), you better switch to it well before the main tank pressure is to low for a safe accent(just in case). Switch to the pony at 1000lbs , if it has issues or you run it dry, you have the main tank to go back to. You better be observing the main tank reg is not freeflowing that last 500lbs away, double checking your main reg and pressure gauge etc... when switching to the pony. I would not feel comfortable at all on my pony with zero gas in my main tank down there(especially feeling comforatble running my main tank dry becasue I have a pony/ that's insane).
It is very true that a pony is only as good as the person who, plans, designs, exercises and maintains it. I wouldn't dive without mine, and don't notice it anyway. I'm so used to mine, I even use it on 30-40ft dives. Ponies are never not included in my settup. I probably dive solo 80% of the time, but even when buddy diving I still think it's crazy not to plan every dive as a solo dive. I fear the buddy system more than I do the pony system for the typical mentality of the typical rec diving partner(especially when hunting).
Less than 100-120ft the 13 works great but if I had a 19 I'd wear it when over 100. The 19 is the same diameter as the 13 so a little extra length is all you add for the extra gas, so if getting only one bottle I'd get the 19. A 19 would work great at 130ft. A 30 is out of my contemplation, if you need that you are probably deco diving and not talking ponies.