Grays Reef meeting Report

[Charlestondivin]

Attended the meeting last night with 6 other spearfisherman. We presented our case and IF common sense prevails and the decision is based on best available science then they will take spearfishing off the proposal. My feeling was that they were receptive to our comments but very defensive about the lack of data to support the spearing ban. The letters were great. we were told that the quantity of letters means less than the quality of the points and arguments in the letters. Thanks to all who took the time to write them as they do have a real impact.

Initially considered in the proposal was banning all fishing which was shot down by the fisherman before it was even included in the proposal.

We were not allowed to speak to the whole group. Everyone was split up into 3 tables for round table discussions.

How many fish counts have been done?
2 per year for the last 4 years.

What data do you have on the amount of spearfishing.
At my table I was told 6% of the people use the reef for diving. 3% Have used spearfishing gear.
At another table they were told 13% of the use of the reef use was diving and 6% spearfishing. :rolleyes:
Some of this data was collected by flyovers and limited sampling of the population (surveys) and admitted that it was probably not accurate.

One of the problems at grays reef was the empty cartridge casings thought to be from powerheads. They actually found a speargun down there with a powerhead attached. Grays reef has a special "No Powerhead" restriction so whoever is doing this is breaking the law to begin with. The problem that I saw with this is that the Rules and Regs for Georgia do not contain that information! How is someone to know about these special regulations?

So the bottom line is that while regular fishing is proven with physical evidence to be damaging to the reef. (mono line tangles, trash, etc.) It will not be considered in the proposal for fear of public outcry. They have no legitimate data as to what spearfisherman are taking and no proof of damage to the reef but they will propose banning spearing.

If this spearfishing ban does go through I will be very dissapointed. We should now focus our efforts to educate anyone else attending coming meetings.

We have done all we can do in Charleston.

[RichT]

Good job Rob.
I know how frustrating it can be attending these meetings.
Its sometimes hard to prove your right even though you know you are.
Try to stay on top of it and keep us informed.
I have found that once you get involved,you will get a little more info in the mail about what is going on from the government.
Thanks!

[MarkD]

Well done Rob, thanks for your commitment of time and energy.

Mark

[kitefisherman]

Rob:

So they are going forward with the proposed spearfishing ban although they have nothing substantial to indicate that spearfishing is causing a problem? Is that correct?

Thanks again for all your hard work.

[jeffe]

"Knowledgeable Officials" use these input sessions to sample just how ludicrus their ideas may seem to the public. They learn a number of things, like how defensible, or indefensible, their position may be. Your presence and knowledgeable input is a powerful statement. Thank you for taking a stand on this issue.
Measure your success by the flack you get and the discomfort on the faces of those with a perverted agenda.:D

[mpick]

Rob
Good job!!!
Don't forget to send me the letters you received. My wife and I will definitely attend the meeting in Kingsland on Dec 1.
Hope we get some people to attend the other meeting:

Nov. 17, 6:30 p.m., Town and Country Inn and Conference Center, Charleston, SC

Nov. 18, 6:30 p.m., Coastal Georgia Center, Savannah, GA

Nov. 19, 6:30 p.m., Quality Inn Savannah South, Savannah, GA

Nov. 20, 6:30 p.m., The Outreach Center, Statesboro, GA

Dec. 1, 6:30 p.m., Holiday Inn Express, Kingsland, GA

Dec. 2, 6:30 p.m., Coastal Georgia Community College, Brunswick, GA

Dec. 3, 6:30 p.m., Coastal Electric Cooperative, Midway, GA

Also let me know any additional facts you may dig up. I am trying to find as many statistics on the net as I can to prove our point.
I would appreciate a report from anyone else that attended the meeting with you or any future meetings.
Mike

[Spear One]

They know better than to take on the hook & line lobby. We have to make it a point from here on out that we make just as much noise and let them know that they don't want to $&%# with us either. Whatever they decide is good for the hook & line folks is good enough for us. Any separation of any kind is simply not acceptable.

Rob, thanks for the great job representing up up there!

[Slay Ride]

I also attended the meeting. The scariest part was when a biologist said they had "Scoping Meetings" in Savannah and dive groups and Dive Shops showed up in support of the no spearfishing ban. Their rationale was that they didn't want to dive near spearfishermen. If you are anywhere near any of the meeting locations I HIGHLY encourage you to attend. If our voice is not heard at these meetings, the plan will get railroaded through. And the precedence that it sets will be horrible for the future of spearfishing. One guy at my table said "Shut the whole sanctuary down, I want to take pictures of all the pretty fish". Please think about attending a meeting.

PS. They did encourage people to send written comments. If you have not made a comment it can be emailed to graysreefcomments@noaa.gov - they did seem genuinely interested in hearing from more people.

[jeffe]

I sent the following email to the link MegladonMan posted.
>
Is it true that you are going to treat spearfishermen different than linefishermen ?
I expect that you would have trouble justifying that, Constutionaly.
One of the Constitution's clearest mandates is equality, and after all, fishing is fishing.
Thank you for this forum to voice my opinion.

Chief of Police
Larry Harmon
Grannis, Arkansas
>
Thanks MegladonMan for the link.
jeffe;)

[eyyeball]

Meglo is 100% right, I sat right next to the Fish Biologist who wants the WHOLE SANCTUARY shut down completely. On my right side was a NOAA employee who was quite defensive when challenged about the data that they brought forth (or lack of) to support the "BAN" on spearfishing. It's my personal opinion that this has NOTHING to do with the facts whatsoever but is all about NOAA and other conservation minded folks (READ VEGETARIANS) wanting to END spearfishing in any US WATERS and to seriously limit Hook and Line fishing.

[Marcus]

Sent my comments.

[seabeast]

if there was a dive shop there supporting the ban did you happen to get a name. i would like to make that infomation public, anyone in that area shouldn't support them in any way

[Marcus]

My email to this link, graysfreefcomments@noaa.gov, was returned, "mailbox unavailable".

[Slay Ride]

Sorry. I added an f in there somewhere. It's graysreefcomments@noaa.gov

Try it again. Thanks for the support

[andrea31419]

Hi everyone, I've been referred to this board by Rob. Glad to know you are all here. I am part of a club in Savannah, Ga. (Sav. Scuba & Spearfishing), we plan on attending the meeting on the 19th in Savannah. Being a diver who dives Grays Reef, I do not support banning spearfishing at Grays, and have other divers who feel the same. Just wanted to drop in to support this issue.

Andrea

[andrea31419]

I also attended the meeting. The scariest part was when a biologist said they had "Scoping Meetings" in Savannah and dive groups and Dive Shops showed up in support of the no spearfishing ban. Their rationale was that they didn't want to dive near spearfishermen

...and this quote, I don't know where NOAA came up with this. I haven't heard of any of these "scoping meetings" in Savannah. Every diver and dive shop owner I know in Savannah spearfishes. I'd like to know where and who held these "scoping meetings". If they had them, they were hush, hush, because I am very active in the diving community in Savannah.

Andrea

[Charlestondivin]

Welcome Andrea!!!

Andrea is with http://www.savannahscuba.net

They will be fighting the Grays Reef thing on the home turf. They actually dive and spear Grays reef. Her husband has been spearing those waters for 20 years.

There are several clubs in Savannah that will be going to the meeting. Andrea has all of our info and we discussed points that were of concern.

Good luck!

[Spear One]

They take the path of least resistance..... we need to generate more resistance!

[richhermes]

welcome to the board, Andrea. Let us know what happens at your meeting

[mpick]

It is really nice to know that there are people attending all the meetings. It would be nice if everyone who could attend each meeting wouuld post so that each meeting would have a group of spearfishermen and not just a bunch of individuals.
I will be attending the Dec 1 meeting in Kingsland, (with my better half) and would liked to hear from anyone else who can attend the metting. Lets go with one voice.
Mike

[Screen Name]

Where fishing is allowed, Spearfishing must be allowed. Fishing restrictions must apply to all parties equally. Anything else is unconstitutional.

No, I'm not attorney general, and I dont play one on TV. I am right though. :D

[Denny]

Megalo- Did you get the name of the biologist who said they had "scoping" meetings? This is the kind of information that we need to sounter the B.S. ASK THEM QUESTIONS! Who, when, how many, under what authority was a meeting held, etc. Make them name the dive shops that are for the ban. In my past experience with these people, they will gloss over a point with a "fact" that is not usually a fact, just a guesstimation.
Smile and ask questions. Lots of questions. It lets the council members know that somebody is actually paying attention to their shennanigans. We can prevail in this battle.
Thanks for going, Rob.

[Slay Ride]

Psycho- They all talked about these scoping meetings. It was the first I had heard of them as well. I feel in these meetings is where "assumptions" were made and now are being presented as fact or overall opinions. At the table, repeatedly we asked (demanded) for ANY scientific data that 1. Spearfishing is detrimental to the fisheries and 2. That the fisheries of this reef is in ANY kind of decline of fish. Nothing was presented even though the question was asked multiple times. Recreational bag limits need to be enforced and no discrimination from the recreational hook and liner and the recreational spearfishermen.

mpick- in addition, the head NOAA guy said a compilation of the comments and questions from the meetings would be email to the attendees. We shall forward and post that information. We will make sure that our points are shown.

screen- you stayed at a Holiday Inns Express last night, I'd bet.

Les

[Spearchucker]

One of the problems at grays reef was the empty cartridge casings thought to be from powerheads. They actually found a speargun down there with a powerhead attached.

Am I the only one that thought this statement was a little odd? I have been on wrecks where amberjack are routinely powerheaded, and I have never once seen a spent shell on the bottom (middlegrounds wreck). We are talking about something an inch long and a 1/4" wide, and these people are finding the reefs littered with them?? I don't buy it, that sounds made up.

And they found a speargun with a PH attached??? How come I never get to find spearguns, let alone spearguns with $130 powerheads attached??? That entire statement sounds like a load of BS to me. BTW, many people carry powerheads for shark protection. In fact, I would say more people carry them for that purpose than to powerhead fish. The only fish I EVER powerhead are Amberjacks.

[Spear One]

Propoganda!

[Charlestondivin]

I asked Greg McFall ( greg.mcfall@noaa.gov ) how many shell casings were found on site.
I was told that shell casings litter the area. You can go out there at any time and find shell casings with no growth on them.

Andrea and the rest of the savannah divers have not seen any casings. And they were not aware of any scoping meetings.

How is anyone to know about the regulation banning powerheads there? It is not in the rules and regs!! The person powerheading probably has no idea he is doing anything wrong.

[Speargun]

I was told that shell casings litter the area. You can go out there at any time and find shell casings with no growth on them. If there are that many shell casings around, did they even consider the fact that someone could be topside target practicing? If someone really wanted to make it look bad for spearos, they could just be going out to the reef and dumping empty casings into the water knowing that they would be found and spearos would get the blame.
If you think about it, just how many shots would a diver get off in a dive even if they did PH every single fish. If there are as many shells out there as they indicate, it would take an army of spearos PHing every fish, on a regular basis.

Something smells fishy here.

[andrea31419]

Andrea and the rest of the savannah divers have not seen any casings. And they were not aware of any scoping meetings.

I can vouch for no powerheads that I know of being seen by divers I know, diving Grays.

I heard only ONE PH was found.

Andrea

[Charlestondivin]

Let us know how it goes Andrea. Good Luck!

[andrea31419]

Will do. I'm very interested myself to see what will happen tonight.

My husband is telling me that these meetings are a matter of formaility, that their minds are already made up, but by law, they have to have these public meetings. I hope this is not the case.

Andrea

[FredT]

Check the brass and see if there are any extractor marks on the rims. I've never seen a powerhead with an extractor.

OTOH it could be the practice used occasionally on long offshore gulf rig trips to extend the boat's range. Strap a drum or three of fuel to the dive platform for the trip out. Once offshore transfer the fuel to the boat's tank (simple matter of an air pressure pump and a hose with appropriate plugs) and kick it/them loose to drift after returning the bungs. Once the target drifts far enough away to be interesting try and put a tracer through it. It's amazing how fast the drum opens up and goes away on a direct hit.

BTW A 100 + yard shot offhand into a moving target from a rolling small boat is a lot harder than it looks.

FT

Originally posted by Speargun
If there are that many shell casings around, did they even consider the fact that someone could be topside target practicing? If someone really wanted to make it look bad for spearos, they could just be going out to the reef and dumping empty casings into the water knowing that they would be found and spearos would get the blame.

...

Something smells fishy here.

[jeffe]

Hope you aren't right, however I know they are required to hold those meetings on major policy changes for public lands. And , they never hold a meeting unless there is already a plan in writing, ready to go in place.
I just got a response back from NOAA, here it is:
>
Thank you for your comment and your interest in Gray's Reef National Marine Sanctuary. For your consideration, I am including below the link to our website which contains information about the Draft Management Plan/Draft EIS. If you have trouble downloading the document, please let me know. I would be happy to mail a copy to you. If you have any further comments or questions after you review the document, please don't hesitate to send those comments as well.
Reed Bohne
Manager

http://www.graysreef.noaa.gov
>
I haven't had a chance to look at it yet, so lets all look er' over.
jeffe

[gumshoe]

If someone goes to one of these meetings, could you please ask the NOAA folks a question for me:

As important as this issue of spearfishing is...could you dedicate some resources to predicting an accurate marine forecast?

Naah, that would probably distract them...

[Spear One]

Multi tasking is not one of their strong points!

[aquanutman]

Originally posted by Charlestondivin
One of the problems at grays reef was the empty cartridge casings thought to be from powerheads. They actually found a speargun down there with a powerhead attached. Grays reef has a special "No Powerhead" restriction so whoever is doing this is breaking the law to begin with.

If indeed these are powerhead casings, and not simply a result of target practice, someone should still remind the Sanctuary staff that this is an enforcement issue. Enforce the regulations they already have in place, instead of arbitrarily adding more regulations that would not solve the problem.

Someone should ask them if there really is a decline in fish, even if it is just fewer larger fish as they state (with no supporting evidence), how they can determine if the majority of the fishing pressure is originating from spearfishermen. Especially considering the document states spearfishing activity as being negligible. It just does not add up. It is appalling that with angling the major source of fishing pressure, as stated in the draft management plan, that they would not seriously evaluate alternatives that would actually have an impact at reducing any overfishing, if there is any occurring. Of course it would be nice to have some documented data -- any documented data -- that could help the reader evaluate the effectiveness of their proposed alternatives as well.

With the number of holes in their arguements and supporting evidence (or lack thereof), I think someone must have been powerheading their draft management plan.

[Charlestondivin]

They claimed it would be easier to enforce the no powerheading if there were no spearfishing at all. Hell, lets ban cars because of the speeders while we are at it.

I absolutely brought it up as a enforcement issue, but i forgot to make sure that point was recorded come to think of it.

[aquanutman]

Originally posted by Charlestondivin
They claimed it would be easier to enforce the no powerheading if there were no spearfishing at all.

And let's prohibit all diving, to prevent illicit spearfishing, which prevents illicit powerheading. And then let's prohibit boating (READ AS NO ACCESS) to prevent illicit diving, which prevents illicit spearfishing, which prevents illicit powerheading.

The question that needs to be asked is where is the documentation that attributes localized fish depletions to spearfishing and not fishing in general? I smell a scapegoat...

[mpick]

Megalo et al
I am looking forward to receiving your data. I am having a couple of local guys with MBA's lookl at the survey and see if they can make any sense out of the statistical data.

Everyone
Please forward me any questions you would like me to ask. I will create a file for the meeting so I don't forget anything. I have to do that because obviosly they think I am not very smart if they think I am buying their cockamamy BS.

I do not believe their position is very defensible and if they go thru with it I believe that some of the Atty's on this site could help us organize a legal foundation of some sort to fight it.
I for one will do my part if it comes to that.

[andrea31419]

We had a good meeting last nigth regarding Grays R. I didn't get the same feeling you all did, "talking upon deaf ears". I actually felt the opposit of that, they were very open to the divers comments/opinions.

Who knows what will turn out will be, but I would not want to be in NOAA's shoes right now, they have a tough decision to make. I do have to say that not spearing at Grays will not be the end of the world, there are other places off the coast of Georgia to spearfish. Also, Savannah divers will support whatever decision is made.



A.

[Slay Ride]

I felt they were really listening as well at the Charleston meeting. No arguement there. The only problem was there was no answers to important questions. They are very nice people and eager to listen. Don't want people to think the NOAA guys/gals were out to push anyone around and I'm sorry that we've misconstrued that opinion. I really just hope that there is open-mindedness and a decision has not been made and they're simply going through the routine. Andrea, your right they do a big decision to make, but NOAA just makes recommendations, it's SAMFC that make the ruling. Hopefully we can get some feedback from them as well. Les

[Spear One]

Unfortunately, logic does not always prevail in these matters. Politics are the biggest problem. If the preferred alternative sent to the council goes against us, we had better be ready to cause a major stink. That will be our last chance to stop it from becoming law.

[mpick]

I agree that losing the ability to spear on Grey's reef is not the end of the world. The problem is it is probably only the beginning of the "END OF THE WORLD".

I have lived in Gainesville, Fl, home to way to many environmentalists, and when they get one decision in their favor they use that as a leap frog to get a bann on the next site. Please be aware that the only way we should accept a ban is if they have good facts to support such a ban.

Also, if I was on the NOAA's board and I didn't want a fight over our decision I would be as amicable as I could too. I believe we are on the right path. Let's keep the pressure on until the final meeting so they know we are serious and we will not go quietly into the night. We should continue to have multi representation at every meeting.