powerheads

[dabulltrouble]

guess with all this shark talk goin on i,m gonna have to invest in a powerhead.what caliber do you guys shoot and whats your opinion on the size that would do the most damage to a shark if it came down to it.

[dlock]

Dave I believe the most popular PH is the 223. They have them at Scuba Quest for 99.00. I've heard you have to "seal" your shells. Can one of you advanced shooters explain this to us novice shooters?

[Grande]

ya i would appreciate that also. there have been a few threads about powerheads here and on FS and i keep looking for a reply from Spear One. how 'bout it man, give us the quick run down on sealing and the pros and cons of the different kinds.

[Screen Name]

Is my favorite rig and the one I've seen most used around here, by plenty of people that know what they're doing. I've used one for 15 years and never had a dud yet. I'm told by some guys that the cheaper, slower rounds produce the most concussion. I paint the joints on my bullets with nail polish...because my nails don't look good in polish.

It is a precision piece of gear. The bore is machined with a special reamer thats incredibly precise. This is important because it needs to fit the contour of the bullet precisely. This keeps the round from expanding and becoming stuck, assuring easy reloading.

I believe these are available from Macs Sports in Clearwater, Narcosis Scuba in Tarpon, and Aquatic Obsessions in St. Pete.

[Dive4Blood]

Screen name is 100% right and on target with his reply. Not bad for a SPUC! :D

[slipknot]

all ive ever used is nail polish.on the seam of the bullet & on the primer. but not too thick,that sometimes makes it hard to insert.(in a non sexual way).

[dlock]

where is the best place to buy the rounds. And what do we look for as far as getting the right "load" such as the "hot loads" you guys talk about?

[Screen Name]

Anyplace that sells guns or ammunition will have 223's, they are megacommon. Someone else will have to answer the question about which ones are the "slower rounds that produce the greater concussion". Financial advisor was the one who laid that one on me, and I have reason to believe he has a clue. I've always used Remington, because I like the box they come in.........

Well, they seem to work.

Slipnot has a good point about not too heavy on the polish. But done correctly I know it works. I've dove with the same round for a year (I'm not too proud to admit), and still rolled that Je......I mean shark that was attacking me.

[dlock]

:D :D those damn je...er ah sharks can be a pain in the ass!!! Thanx for the info Screen that's exactly what I was wondering.If you could get them from a" local store" for us unconnected shooters. Now who has the info on which "loads" to get? Then we will have the full scoop on this...you guys are all right. No matter what D4B says:D :D

[Financial Advis]

there are 2 rounds that seem to curry the most favor with bangin.
the most commonly used is the UMC box that is yellow and can be bought a WALMART. for once you have something cheap because the slower the powder burn the better hole it blows in. the bullet does little to nothing. it is the gas expansion that kills them. the thought of "hot loads" is inversley correct. you want cheap loads. paint the primer. (the little round circle at the flat bottom of the round) and the neck of the round where the bullet is inserted making sure all the little grooves get filled. some people ask why and as we remember in boyles law, the interstitial area around the powder is air. when you submerge it becomes compressed and creates a vacum that will pull water into your powder. before each dive hold each round up to your ear. shake. if you hear the powder jostle inside, it is a good round. if you cant hear the powder move pitch it.

the secpnd round is a soviet round that they use. you can get them but it is hard. they are excellent, and expensive.

good luck and try to kill everything moving. :)

[Diver Dan]

I have a 44 Mag that I purchased from Jim's quite a few years ago. The few times that I have used it, it has worked well. I also use fingernail polish and have never had a failure. I change the rounds out frequently. Don't leave home without it!

[baitwaster]

Are slip on power heads any good? I wonder if a slip on ph would not fit some tips as well as others. I would like to be able to carry one in my suit sleeve. I don't really want to shoot HUGE fish, but would like something for defense.How about 30.06 cal.?

[Screen Name]

But the ones I've tried were a little particular about shot angle & distance etc.- They liked to hit the fish only square, which is not always feasible. Consequently, the ones I tried tended to be unreliable, so I went back to a real powerhead.

Like I say though, I've not tried them all.

[poorshot]

I talked to where Tues. seminar will be held and they had 8 powerheads in .223

[inletsurf]

DaBull

From time to time you can find a PH on ebay for cheap...right now there's one but its going kinda high...i think around $99

[Spear One]

Best powerhead by far is the B&B .223! Stores listed above have them.

I like the military surplus rounds, they seem to have extra powder and little more bang. They are usually in a plain white box with black letting. They say made in Malaysia, Russia, Israel, etc. I get mine at Wain Roberts firearms in Pinellas Park, Fl. They are usually 4.99 to 5.99 for a box of twenty.

When you paint the nose end of the bullet make sure you don't get the paint on the brass casing. Seal the lip aroung the bullet where it meets the brass, but don't run the paint onto the casing. Paint on the casing will cause it to bind against the breech and get stuck.

I prefer two component epoxy paint to nail polish. Epoxy is more workable and doesn't clump or build up like nail polish tends to do. If you use nail polish, thin it a little with acetone to keep it flowing smoothly.

I carry a bullet ejector with me just in case. I made one using an old phillips screwdriver. Make sure it is narrow enough and long enough to punch out the casing. I drilled a hole in the handle of the screwdriver and attached a short string and a disconnect clip on the end and clip it to my BC.

[inletsurf]

So .223 is the caliber of choice...I'm glad I read this thread before I dropped dough on a PH...I was leaning towards a .357 before, but I'll always take the experts word for it!!!!

btw I put a poll on caliber choice on the general spearfishing forum...experts like Spear One, RR, Shooter, D4B, Hermes trio, Scott, and others please vote!!!

[Speargun]

Anyone dip thier rounds in wax to seal them?
It's not as permanant as nail polish, but it's quick, easy, and if you get extra wax on the casing, it will just scrape off when you insert the round into the PH instead of getting stuck.

[Reef Raider]

The term "hot load" comes from reloaders that some time get a bad wt when loading shells giving them more gun powder in the shell this increases the muzzle velocity of that round or rounds.
For the most part all .223 rounds from a mfg are filled with the same kind and amount of powder . The less expensive kinds of .223 use thinner brass ,what I call dirty powder and a projectile that is of less use killing a thing ( the military rounds are made to go right through you and give good range)thats why its a FULL METAL JACKET. The other "cheap "stuff is for target range use.I have been told that most target rounds have a lighter load they do this to save money when mfg. the ammo. Just for the fun of it go in to a gun shop and tell them that you are reloading some .223 rds and want the "slow burn powder " so you get more of a big bang .HA HA Blanks are safer and kill fish to , but do you really think that piece of lead covered in copper did not help kill the fish too. If you do go have some one load you up some blanks they would be even cheaper and you could get more of that "slow burn powder " in them ,let me know how they worked out for you. If you want to max out your knock dn get a 65grn .223 but remember this, it has no more powder in it than a 42grn round unless some one sliped and made a "hot load". You would also have to special order this round as there is no use for it in this state. If its more power anyone wants maybe a 30.30 any bigger and it would seem to me that there would be to much damage . By the way all this has to do with .223 ONLY no other size chambered ammo .Hand guns and the BIG BORE riffles are another animal completely. Now the mil. rounds that Spear One talked about I'am not to sure of but if they have a 45grn bullet wt and a 3700 foot per second muzzle velocity they more than likly have the same load as the rest .

[dlock]

Thanx for the info guys...definitely learned something here!!

[FredT]

The powder in most .223 (or 5.56 NATO) is IMR 4895 or equivalent. Accurate (IMI) makes a powder called 223 that is almost a 4895 clone as charge throw weights are interchangeable. Several others make similar powder. Moving to a faster powder will make the hydraulic shock more intense. The slow powder in the .223 is designed to provide the proper pressure at the gas port on the M-16 for reliable action. If not firing it in a rifle this is not important. Faster powders will have a lower pressure at the port; a slower powder may have higher pressure at the port. Lower pressures won't cycle the action properly, higher pressures bend things. Note that a faster powder will give a higher peak chamber pressure that is hard on the bolt locking lugs.

If doing hand loads projectiles can be sealed with Teflon tape and crimped, primers can also be Teflon tape sealed and crimped. An "M" die is necessary to expand the case mouth to accept the tape though. The primer is sealed simply by having a sheet of Teflon tape between the case and the primer when the primer is seated. The same system works to seal pressure formed case shot shell primers, but use about 3 layers of tape and follow up with a lacquer coat to seal the Primer's cup to anvil annular. A smaller charge of faster powder is what is needed if intending to optimize the performance of the power head. The idea is to maximize conversion of the powder to gas before the projectile leaves the power head, without damaging the power head. A little too much fast powder tends to do bad things pressure wise on an exponential curve. When working up a wildcat load use a minimal charge pistol round with similar projectile weight as a start point for the load, and work up from there a few tenths of a grain at a time. One of my favorite 30-06 and .308 "practice" rounds is a 230 grain home cast hard lead gas checked land rider projectile over 24 grains of Hercules 2400 pistol powder. Ballistics are the same at 100 yards as a "full load" is at 600 yards, there are NO barrel leading problems, and recoil is non-existent so I can fire it all day long. It just doesn’t cycle the action of an M-1 or M-1A. My $ cost for this round is about the same as a premium .22LR round.

As a rule of thumb, with all other things being equal, the "cleanest" burning powders come from Dupont (IMR-xxxx) and the "least clean" come from Hercules. Fouling from a properly designed Dupont load will be about 1/8 the fouling from a Hercules load, with powder cost/round being on the order of 20-50% higher for the Dupont. Winchester, Scott and Accurate will fall in the middle of that range.

For a HOT load in a disposable slip on power head load the case with a dip case charge of Unique. In a .223 this will have about the same effect on a fish as a .444 Marlin cartridge. i.e. nothing edible left of it, and good potential for hearing loss. You'll be trusting the water to stop the shrapnel from the power head though.

Military 5.56 rounds are sealed with lacquer and the primers crimped in place to handle the vibration of full auto fire. This holds true of .308 (7.62 NATO) .30-06, 45 ACP military ball, and 7.62x39 and 9x19 Russian military. The crimps provide a metal to metal seal; the lacquer is the insurance. You can get the same seal on a hand load by crimping the mouth of a case onto a hard lead projectile.

NEVER use Wd-40 or other petroleum penetrating oils on any cartridge. Traces of oil that wick into the primer pocket kills the primer's "pill" dead even faster than water will. LEOs have this problem in their "duty" guns as well if the gun is lubed with a penetrating type oil. This is one reason that a proper LEO marksmanship qualification course uses the "carry" ammo the officer has been using for the last 6 months or year. It burns the ammo of "questionable" utility the officer has been hauling around in the rain and such, impacts at the same point as the carry ammo and allow the officer to replace his batch of ammo at the end of the qual process with new carry ammo. Any other method is considered a "false economy" and may cost officers lives later as their ammo may fail.

Disposable "slip on" tips need to be mated well to the tip design. A 9mm disposable is lightweight enough your impact point won't change significantly, and the powder used in a 9mm is fast enough it is designed to burn completely before the projectile leaves the case. 9mm is more than enough fi the shot is relatively well placed on anything up to 100 pounds, above that target size that you may want to step up to a hot .357 load. The advantage of a slip on disposable is cost for infrequent use, safety and the fact that there is no need to waterproof anything, as the cartridge is sealed in a hermetic chamber until the round is fired by the shaft tip.

FT
FT

[dlock]

damn straight, Fred:D

[Shooter Dan]

FredT
Are you from Niceville, FL USA?

Do you own a boat named the Giga Byte?

Just busting on you for that Genesis winded reply.

Thanks for the details! :D

[Hogwild]

I know there are a lot fish being stoned out with the .223 PH but after trying one, I went with the .357 for several reasons.

1. Because the .223 casing does not have a lip at the base that locks the shell, it tended to stick in the PH and as mentioned by Spear One, you need to have some type of removal tool with you or your done for the dive. The .357 can be removed with a dive knife by prying out the shell casing by the lip at the base.

2. The .223 is designed to reach full muzzel pressure after the powder burns the length of an 18" barrel. The .357 has much faster burning powder because it has to reach full muzzel pressure in 2". I may be wrong, but I would think that most of the powder of the .223 is still unburnt after it leaves the PH, so the .357 should transfer more energy to blow the fishy brains out.

Am I wrong??

Hope to see most of you guys tonight. I'll be the one with the big cooler of beer. :rolleyes:

[FredT]

Originally posted by Hogwild
Am I wrong??



Nope!

FT

[Divin' fool]

Uh....what Fred said:D

[Screen Name]

FredT is not the first engineer who was talking over my head, (I think they teach you that in Engineering school) but at least he's talking about things I'm interested in.

I think I comprehend FredT's comment about slip on disposables need to be well mated to the tip design. I've had several slip ons not work unless you hit the fish squarely from close range, and as far as I could tell, there were 2 reasons.

First, the face of a B&B powerhead has a fairly sharp corner. It is also hardened steel. This is so if you hit the fish at an angle, the tip bites in and the momentum of the shaft can cause the powerhead to collapse the firing pin to fire the round. The slip ons I've seen have been aluminum or plastic and didn't have a sharp leading edge. They were prone to glance off the fish when you hit it at an angle.

The second reason is that with the slip on, it has to slide on the shaft to fire the round with the speartip. If you hit the fish at an angle, the slip on can bind, especially with the threads on the tip of some shafts, and may not fire. With a good powerhead, theres enough of a guiding mechanism to overcome the side loading, and the firing pin is kept in the center where it needs to be.

I'm not bullet or gun expert, not even a powerhead expert, so this is only based on my experience, not from intense study. However, I will support any certified expert's opinion that agrees with me.:D

[FredT]

Originally posted by Screen Name
[B
The second reason is that with the slip on, it has to slide on the shaft to fire the round with the speartip. If you hit the fish at an angle, the slip on can bind, especially with the threads on the tip of some shafts, and may not fire. With a good powerhead, theres enough of a guiding mechanism to overcome the side loading, and the firing pin is kept in the center where it needs to be.

[/B]

As a rule of thumb when evaluating a mechanism that has to slide on a round shaft the length of the guide needs to be at least 1.5 times the guide diameter. An example this is if the tip diameter is 3/8" of an inch, the slip on head should have a guide sleeve length of at least 9/16 of an inch in contact with the shaft! If you expect it to not jam and bind on any type of side impact the guide length should be 2xdiameter.

FT