After kill fish recovery,

[WC Freediver]

Interesting question was posed to me by a young Spearo:
Does it count or is it unethical to recover a deep fish with a tank? I don't know if this has been discussed on the board or not, but in the event that it hasn't I thought it would be good to get the opinion of some of our seasoned divers. My own opinion, both personally and that of a charter boat Captain responsible for his passengers is that you should ALWAYS dive within your own ability. I personally can't dive to 100'. Wish I could, but I can't. I have a tank filled and ready to go if I can't recover a fish. I would expect my guys on the boat not to hesitate to ask me to get their fish or tank up themselves if they're certified. This is a great sport but not worth your life.

Also, CPR/ First Aid...a complete must to know in our sport.

Just my two cents,
Rob "Daybreak"

[Mattedhead]

Screw ethics...no fish is worth dying for.

[BDaly]

Its been knocked around a few times. Im sure Bill will chime in, I thought he had the right idea. Something around the lines of don't dive out of your ability and no reason to lose a person over a fish.

[J-Rat]

Also, CPR/ First Aid...a complete must to know in our sport.


without a doubt. I keep a pocket mask with my spearfishing gear. O2 kept on boats for those that have them is a great idea as well.

[deckhandmike]

I have a spare air and it's great unless your friends get to it first, or it free flows as usual.

[Q]

I watched I man die while trying to get a YT from the kelp at 65' at Cortez bank. Man that sucked. I have used a tank 2 times to get fish out.

IMHO this is the most dangerous part of our sport, getting the fish out of the deep kelp.

Q.

[WC Freediver]

Quinten,
Perfect example, must have been pretty traumatic? As a cop and Diver, I've had the fortune of bringing two guys back. One was a kid in front of his mother, pretty *****ing powerful sh*t. I'll have a defibrilator and O2 on the "Daybreak" by Spring Rob

[Kingspear]

What's unethical is risking human life for a fish. Unethical is not recovering a dying fish you shot. If you can't dive deep enough to recover ther fish you shot and you have a bottle to get it, it would be unethical not to use it.

[Bill McIntyre]

Yeah, its been discussed before, but I'll repeat myself.

I carry a couple of pony bottles, and I won't hesitate to use one for a fish or an anchor hung up deep. But one time when I confessed to using a tank to recover a fish in a post on freedivelist, I got some private email telling me I wasn't really a freediver, and that if I was going to do such a thing, I shouldn't admit it publicly. I guess my replies were less than polite.

Another POV I've seen expressed on this board is that we should never dive in a place where we couldn't retrieve a fish if it tied up on the bottom. I suppose that is the real hard core purist approach, but it would severely limit my spearfishing. A lot of places where I dive have deeper water nearby. If I shoot a wsb in 50 feet of water and can't stop it, it might get to 80 or 100 feet and tie up. I'm just not going to go around measuring the distance from water shallow enough for me to dive to nearby water too deep.

And then there is the situation for which I got the lecture. The water was 55 feet deep, a stretch for me, but still doable on a good day. But after I shot the fish, the current came up, took all the kelp underwater so that I couldn't hang on and relax between dives, and then the vis on the bottom was maybe three feet. What would have been doable in different conditions at that spot became too dangerous. I got my hand on the shaft and said "screw it, I'm not dying for this fish" and went to the boat for a tank.

Of course there is one more alternative- cut the line and lose tip, shaft, and fish. That is supposed to teach me a lesson and make me more cautious about where and what I shoot. Sorry, but not me. This is a sport, not a way to prove my manhood.

So yes, I like to freedive, but I also like to live. And I justify being a coward by thinking of what a favor I'm doing for my buddies. I have had to recover a good friend from the bottom, try to give CPR in a bouncing boat while bloody vile tasting foam came out of his mouth and nose with each compression, and then try to gather the courage to call his wife and tell her that she was now a single mother of five. I don't want to put my dive buddies through that.

[apneanaut]

^ Can't put it any better than that.

[Diablo Loco]

Bill,
As I am not new to scuba diving or Spearfishing, I am a FNG to freediving, as well as to Spearboard. I just wanted to say that I am gald to see that someone is not afraid to tell it like it is. It's reassuring to know that if and when I am placed in the same situation, and some "purist" or want-a-be gives me s*** over it, I don't feel like a "coward" for doing it, and I can tell him where to stick it. So, thanks for saying that and making it clear. A fish isn't worth anyones life.
Bryan

[ralphthehalibut]

Bill hit it right on the head.

There's lotsa reasons out there to use a bottle. I say don't unless you need to, but if the need is there - like for SAFETY - use it without hesitation and tell the naysayers to go screw themselves. The only times I've ever come close to/blacked out, have been cutting fish free from deep kelp. I carry a spare air in the ski for just such purposes, and strap it on when I dive on deep recoveries. At 90' that's about 1 breath - enough to get me up to the surface if something goes wrong. I don't breath on it, but it's nice knowing it's there.

You may not be a purist, but you're alive at the end of the day AND you didn't waste the fish. I wonder how many fish purists have needlessly lost because of their ego? There are better ways to proove your skills.


Edit: another really good reason to carry a spare air for deep recoveries is if you are diving solo or are diving with poeple who have different ability levels. I hunt WSB solo most of the time and also often dive with people who cant dive more than 60-70 feet. If I get into trouble at 90, they can't help me, and I wouldn't want them to get hurt trying.

[divefilm]

Besides, a true purist would free dive naked and spear fish with his *ahem* wong. So in reality, we are all using man made gear to get fish. Don't waste fish. Don't die.

[undrH2Ohntr]

My thoughts:
1. it's unethical to die and leave a wife, kids, and or family behind.
2. I try not to spearfish the kelp in water past my limits, personal decision because I don't want to be put in that situation.
3. Use a tank if you have to, it's just not worth it.

[los mentirosos]

I would recover the fish as long as it wasn't risky. I've been snorkling, aka freediving and scuba diving since the late 70's. It seems to me fish are much easier to aproach without all those bubbles from scuba. So why do some people frown on us for spearfishing while on scuba. Unless like PB says, you dive naked and use the wong you were born with.;)

[jdeirmend]

If a fish ties up at 50' or below, and you don't have a tank, I think that it is very important to use some good sense in your efforts to retrieve it.

I.e., it seems likely to me that the people who would get themselves into trouble are ones who will dive to the fish and try and untangle it while sitting at depth, and retrieve it all in the same breath. The risk of putting yourself in a hypoxic state from attempting this sort of stunt cannot be emphasized enough. Death and/or SWB could be avoided by just cutting the kelp stringer below the fish with a knife and surfacing WITHOUT the fish in tow. If it ties up again, all you have to do is wait a good three minutes and repeat.

But having tanks on hand for these purposes seems to me a very wise safety precaution.

[WC Freediver]

Agree. Thanks for the follow up. Rob

[ralphthehalibut]

Dave, it's not the hunting on scuba that's frowned on by these purists (though they do that too) so much as the useing scuba for recovery of a fish shot while freediving.

These are usually the same people tht somehow think less of you is you shoot a fish while on the surface.

[J-Rat]

I have never speared while Scuba diving, but I am certified, and If I had enough money for a boat, I would probably be able to afford my own Scuba gear to keep on it, which I think is a great idea for those deep retrieval situations. You should know what you are capable of, and there is definitely no need to pass your limit to get a fish.

This thread has got me thinking though. How much are those spare air pony bottles? where can you get them? How much air is in them (how long do they last)? And is there concerns with them similar to those of SCUBA, such as never holding your breath, and ascending at a slow rate because you've been breathing compressed air?

[ralphthehalibut]

This thread has got me thinking though. How much are those spare air pony bottles? You can find them for a couple hundred buckswhere can you get them?local dive shop, online, etc. How much air is in them (how long do they last)?they come in various sizes. the smallest one is good for 10-12 breaths on the surface, way less at depth. And is there concerns with them similar to those of SCUBA, such as never holding your breath, and ascending at a slow rate because you've been breathing compressed air?yes, exact same concerns.. You can get a harness so the spare air sits right below your chin - I'll try and dig up a photo

[los mentirosos]

I guess they would really dis me. I usually shoot a chub or barracuda or 2 on my surface interval. At least I don't shoot them from the boat.

[WC Freediver]

I have slayed alot of WSB from the surface. I don't follow that rule, never have. Last season I was bringing a fish to the boat. I always reload the gun right after. I got to the swim platform of the "Daybreak" and saw about a 35lber swim 5' away under the boat. Shot the fish and handed the gun to my buddy waiting on the deck. Was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. He danced around the boat like a girl. Rob

[Bill McIntyre]

I
This thread has got me thinking though. How much are those spare air pony bottles? where can you get them? How much air is in them (how long do they last)? And is there concerns with them similar to those of SCUBA, such as never holding your breath, and ascending at a slow rate because you've been breathing compressed air?

I think a Spare Air is marginal. It just has enough air for a few breaths, and you do have to treat the ascent just as if you used any other scuba. If you hold your breath, you will embolize.

If you are not scuba trained, I would stay away from it. But even if you have scuba experience, it might be hard to keep your habit patterns straight. You basically do a free dive down to the fish, then decide to use the Spare Air, so you have become a Scuba Diver, and if you were excited or on the edge, you might forget to exhale on the way up.

Of course I realize that if you are beach diving or even on a PWC, there isn't much room for a larger tank and regulator setup.

I always kept a 50 cubic foot bottle in my previous boat, but in my present boat there is not a handy spot for it, so I use pony bottles. At first I hung the pony bottle on a rig that went around my waist, but it was awkward and the hose would be pulling on my mouthpiece. I decided that I wanted to make it as smooth as possible, so I bought this pony bottle harness.

[ralphthehalibut]

Bills right. A spare air is marginal. It's a last chance, save my ass, no other thing will work, I'm about to pass out type of thing that will get you to the surface if you are smart, but that's it.

[seahunter]

I was diving at san bentios and one of the better divers on the trip dropped his metal tech in 90 feet of water while fighting a yellowtail. He thought he had put his arm through the bands, but he missed. They made a few drops and did not find the gun so 2 guys put on tanks and found it in 5 minuets. Just another reason to bring a tank.

[Bill McIntyre]

Another reason to use a gun that floats too.

[ralphthehalibut]

I was diving at san bentios and one of the better divers on the trip dropped his metal tech in 90 feet of water while fighting a yellowtail. He thought he had put his arm through the bands, but he missed. They made a few drops and did not find the gun so 2 guys put on tanks and found it in 5 minuets. Just another reason to bring a tank.


Very true - I watched Bill find a gun that had been dropped locally after 5 minutes on scuba - it was only in 30-50' (IDK for sure) but the vis on the bottom was like 5' or less - we had been freediving looking for the gun for at least 20 minutes with no success.


At that same spot, another spearboard guy dropped his gun in better vis about a month later and even with 20' vis it took me at least 20 minutes to find it.

[Chris Oak]

We always carry a tank onboard the boat, not only to retrieve a fish that might tie up deep but to also retrieve an anchor. One time I had an anchor tie up and had to go down and get it clear of the rocks, man trying to move that bitch clear on a breath hold took forever and three tries. By the third try I was pretty damn tired and lightheaded and brought the tank out everytime since.

I've heard of talented divers dying trying to retrieve a fish. There's no shame in surviving, be it crawling out on shore after a rough dive or grabbing a tank to retrieve something.

[Holy Mackerel]

This is a good thread, I just got a boat, and planned to bring my BCD/tank, for purposes discussed .... but this is pretty slick... Hopefully, I wouldnt have to stay under too long to cut kelp, or free an ancor, but wonder how long a pony bottle lasts? (in general, I know depth affects air/time)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g287/cmfierro/Boat/quickpac.jpg

[greekdiver]

variable weight is also a very good option to retrieve fish. You can hold your breath super long when you dont have to kick.

People get in trouble sometimes when they dont relax long enough on the surface to retrieve the fish.

[rojodiablo]

I generally do everything I can to get my fish back. Bill has it all covered, perfectly. No fish is more important than me, or my friends. No spearshaft is worth more than my life, or my friends. I am not scuba certified, so I have no option but to try and overpower my fish before they skip town on me, and then if they tangle deep, I let the bastard die. I don't bother to go after them right away, unless it were a tournament. I just pile on the pressure, and wait 5 minutes. When i get to a hung up fish, I try to kill it if it is still fighting. Dead, but still tangled?? I split, and rest for 5 more minutes. Then, i go down, and cut the line, and pull the fish and shaft easily to the top. Once the shaft is back in the gun, or on the boat, and the fish is secure, I pull my line free, and retie, or replace the shaft. With no scuba around, this is the safest way you can deal with this situation.

[tommy7]

wosrt case, you can back the boat over the spot and pull the floatline/reel line until the fish comes up or the shooting line breaks. that is of course if you are diving from a boat ;)

[Seacidal]

wosrt case, you can back the boat over the spot and pull the floatline/reel line until the fish comes up or the shooting line breaks. that is of course if you are diving from a boat ;)

And if your rigging is up to the task! :thumps:

[mikeme]

No fish is worth risking your life. You should always have a couple of bottles in the boat just in case.

[lobzila]

I made a promise to the wife long ago to keep a spare bottle and and old style type back pack and reg on the boat for just such an occasion. Have only had to use it once. To throw another wrench into the discussion, if you are in a spearfishing tournament, and you have to use the bottle to recover the fish, is it ethical to still enter the fish?
Just some food for thought.

[Bill McIntyre]

wosrt case, you can back the boat over the spot and pull the floatline/reel line until the fish comes up or the shooting line breaks. that is of course if you are diving from a boat ;)

OK, but I've already mentioned the fact that I'm not going to cut the line and lose the fish, tip, and shaft, and I'm not going to break it either. If its that important to you to prove that you aren't a wimp because you never use a tank, then good for you. You be de man. I'll use a tank.

[bajahunter]

After reading Bill´s post a while back, I bought a 30 pony bottle and just put a cheap regulator and pressure gauge on it, got a backpack and keep it in my boat, I´ve never used it, usually stone my fish(sure), but will use it when needed without a second tought.

[ralphthehalibut]

if you are in a spearfishing tournament, and you have to use the bottle to recover the fish, is it ethical to still enter the fish?
Just some food for thought.

IMO, depends on the rules of the tournament. If the rules say freediving only, then no, it's not ethical to enter a fish you used scuba to retrieve. Some tournaments allow scuba so you'd be fine in those.

Again, it's up to the diver to choose between a tournament and their life. Maybe I'm just gettin old, but I don't really feel like I need to prove anything so I dont have a hard time making that choice.

call me a nancy. I'll stick to safe stuff like surfing 50' waves and rolling through TJ at 3 am:D:thumps::beer:

[mokaction]

I have a spare air and it's great unless your friends get to it first, or it free flows as usual.

LOL.. I know who took it.. LOL..

Larry

[Bill McIntyre]

Very true - I watched Bill find a gun that had been dropped locally after 5 minutes on scuba - it was only in 30-50' (IDK for sure) but the vis on the bottom was like 5' or less - we had been freediving looking for the gun for at least 20 minutes with no success.


At that same spot, another spearboard guy dropped his gun in better vis about a month later and even with 20' vis it took me at least 20 minutes to find it.

And man, was I ever lucky to find that gun.

Since its winter, I might as well tell a dumb shit story on myself. My friend Daniel Gonzalez had shot this 60 pound sea bass, and he and Austin Derry were taking turns diving into the murk trying to retrieve it. I was holding my gun and Austin's gun, and Daniel's gun was out in the kelp bed at the end of his reel line. I think about half the dives they were not even finding the fish, much less making any progress cutting it out.

Finally one of them came up with the fish. Since I was all fresh from sitting there on the surface, I though I'd be a hero and swim out into the kelp bed, grab Daniel's gun, and pull it out into open water. All of us were using hybrids, so I put the barrels of my gun and Austin's gun in my left hand, swam into the bed, grabbed Daniel's gun with my right hand, rolled onto my back, took a 90 degree turn to the right, and powered over the kelp out into open water. I got out there and looked at my left hand, and Austin's gun was gone.

OH SHIT!

I figured I didn't stand a chance of finding it freediving, so I told Austin to stay still to mark the spot, and Daniel and I swam a couple hundred yards out to the boat with his fish, pulled the anchor, came back and anchored close by, and I took the pony bottle in the water. My plan was to start in the kelp clearing where Austin was, try to duplicate my course to where I grabbed the gun, then take a right 90 degree turn if necessary, and duplicate my line out of the kelp.

The problem is that I don't have a fancy console with compass on that regulator that I use on the pony bottle, so its very hard to maintain a straight line across the bottom in the murk. And of course I didn't have a lot of air to screw around. After going a ways, I came up to see where the hell I was and try to adjust. After doing that twice, when I came back to the bottom, I fell on Austin's gun. WHOOPEE! I was never so glad to see a gun in my life. Its hard enough to tell my wife that I'm buying another gun for myself, but tellng her I had to buy one for Austin might have been a bit much.

BTW, Dave had been working his ass off freediving for the gun the entire time I was going out to the boat and bringing back. There were a lot of sea bass there that day, so I really appreciated his effort.

Also BTW, that is his yacht in the background.

[Nekton]

Originally Posted by J-Rat
This thread has got me thinking though. How much are those spare air pony bottles? where can you get them? How much air is in them (how long do they last)? And is there concerns with them similar to those of SCUBA, such as never holding your breath, and ascending at a slow rate because you've been breathing compressed air?[/QUOTE]



I just want to add that pony bottles, like the spare air shown are designed primarily to make a SAFE ASCENT from the bottom [See Below], and are good for a half dozen or dozen breaths only, depending on your depth and what you're doing.

These limited volume Spare Airs aren't that safe, especially for recreational divers going down for anchors and deep fish. If possible, it's much safer to use a small scuba tank, like a 55 or somewhat smaller pony bottle if you're actually thinking about doing a long descent, performing a complicated task like cutting out a kelped fish in low light and visibility, and ascending. The only way to do it on Spare Air would be to breath hold while kicking down like a free diver, skip breathe or just take one breath (if very deep) on the bottom, then hopefully remember to continually exhale on the ascent like a scuba diver.

A good healthy lung capacity is about 5.8 Liters or 0.2 Cubic Feet. Spare Air holds 3 Cubic Feet, so that's around 15 breaths at the surface, 7 breaths at 33 feet, just 3 breaths at 66 feet, and a little more than one breath at 80 or 90 feet.

I used to wear a somewhat larger pony bottle with its own regulator while I was hookah diving on the North Coast doing abalone research. The bottle was only for a last resort in case the compressor shut down topside and I was underwater below 40 or 50 feet with my last breath cut off. Anything shallower, and I preferred to just do a low tech free ascent.



Quote from Spare Air website: http://www.spareair.com/
SPARE AIR is the smallest redundant SCUBA system available with enough air to get you to the surface in an out-of-air emergency. The patented SPARE AIR should be a standard piece of SCUBA diving equipment for the safety minded diver. Explore the wealth of information about our product and diving in general. Our goal is to convince you to save your own life in an out-of-air emergency.

[deckhandmike]

I have never speared while Scuba diving, but I am certified, and If I had enough money for a boat, I would probably be able to afford my own Scuba gear to keep on it, which I think is a great idea for those deep retrieval situations. You should know what you are capable of, and there is definitely no need to pass your limit to get a fish.

This thread has got me thinking though. How much are those spare air pony bottles? where can you get them? How much air is in them (how long do they last)? And is there concerns with them similar to those of SCUBA, such as never holding your breath, and ascending at a slow rate because you've been breathing compressed air?

Spare air is a bad product for most freedivers. It works fine (I hear) if it is always kept clean, no exposure to sand, used often and regularly serviced. In my experience , due to my treatment of the product it is a piece of $hit. It fails me about 90% of the time by freeflowing on the first breath. Now understand it works in a perfect world (supposedly) but not for your average spearo. Get a pony bottle with a real regulator.

[rojodiablo]

I made a promise to the wife long ago to keep a spare bottle and and old style type back pack and reg on the boat for just such an occasion. Have only had to use it once. To throw another wrench into the discussion, if you are in a spearfishing tournament, and you have to use the bottle to recover the fish, is it ethical to still enter the fish?
Just some food for thought.

In a freediving tournament, it is instant DQ. And, BTW, all this scuba talk is useless on 75% of all our dives, as they are beach dives. Yeah, it's nice to have the scuba around, but the majority of divers don't have rapid access to it on a daily basis.

[patrick]

how are the ascents on that backpack? do you start to runaway near the surface, or can you tuck a few extra lbs in it? i like the simplicity, but i also like to be able to control my buoyancy.. plus, my hp120 in the bow gets my little whaler up on plane nicely until i can spring for a new prop ;) (my fatass brother always likes to sit as far aft as possible without physically being in the water)

[tommy7]

OK, but I've already mentioned the fact that I'm not going to cut the line and lose the fish, tip, and shaft, and I'm not going to break it either. If its that important to you to prove that you aren't a wimp because you never use a tank, then good for you. You be de man. I'll use a tank.

Bill,

I never scuba dove nor ever wanted to so we don't have a tank on board. I always tell the guys that if you get a fish tied up deep then call someone over, so far so good and we have not had to loose fish or gear. There was a time when I had a fish tied up at 70', so I put my buddies weightbelt on a floatline and bombed down to the bottom but it was too dark to find the wsb so we pulled the boat over the spot and yanked on the line from the deck of the boat and the fish came up:thumps:....That being said, I think that guys who do scuba should definately use it when needed and I have seen the Peace dive boat use it on almost every trip that I have been on and in one incedent at SBI, it took the scuba guy 10 minutes to cut the fish out @ 70':eek:
Tommy

[WC Freediver]

Rojodiablo,
Agree about the beach dive, you are sh#t out of luck. The guys that I dive with know that if they have a deep fish they automatically get one of us as a spotter. Guess thats your only option on beach dives. Keeping an eye on your fellow diver is the key.

During the season, I like going off on my own. We try and keep an eye on the bed we're diving about every 15 to 20 min. to find a fin in the air and count everyone. Also keeps an eye on boats in the area.

I've recovered fish with spare air and a tank, doesn't make a difference to me. I personally use a tank. My buddies spare air has a high pressure stup that works good.

Also, with a spotter I'll give it a shot at recovering the fish on a breath. As a last resort I'll get a tank.
Rob "Daybreak"

[Tedbudion]

Its not question of ethics rather of safety if one doesn't make a habit of spearing fish at or just beyond one's means in order to recover later with help of scuba or friends (the latter being much more common than you'd think). Pardon my french, f**k me if I would ever risk my life again in a tricky fish recovery, I've seen or heard about too many incidents (not accidents), many fatal. How many times did we have what we thought it was a perfect shot just to see the fish move at the last second, and then go deep, around kelp or inside a cave, with our spear planted on it? I don the tank, if available, and take my time. If not available, I cut the shooting line.

My team-mate of many competition years (and my dentist), Tatá, had (or has) the uncanny ability to find the most intricate and caved in grouper at the end of the day. As s**t is always served in truck loads never in tea spoons, he would usually shoot it in he back or near the tail. We'd be always late back home and extenuated. Fortunately nothing serious but few sambas ever happened to us, which I cannot say for some of our buddies.

A couple of years ago, in Mexico with Roberto Reyes and Alex Franco, I was hovering at 50 ft. over a 75 ft. high point in very murky water. A huge cubera came into range swimming lazily, oblivious to my presence. I moved the gun forward, took aim for a kill shot and squeezed the trigger. At the very instant I did that, the pargo, noticing me, raised the spines and bolted away going forward. The shot, I presume, hit in the middle. I thought it was ok because there was a sliptip and cable (instead of mono). The float line rushed to the bottom through my hand while I try to surface. I barely made it, but managed to handle the short bungee end, near the float, to our driver on the dinghy. A stout Mexican, he tried to hold on to it like a bull. No señor, the snapper rushed even more deep, almost pulling him overboard :eek:. He let it go because he couldn't swim. So the whole shebang was stuck somewhere on the bottom. I tried to dive once, but could barely make up the top rock, 80 ft. No sweat, back to the mother-boat to get a scuba tank. When I finally reached the bottom, 100 ft. down, the pargo was all gone but a nice fillet left on the tip. The cable was wrapped all around the rock and had to be thrown away later. It took me 10 min with a tank at 100 ft to untangle the mess.

August 2007 I had similar case, with another, but much bigger cubera off Africa. The water was crystal clear, and the bugger was just hanging around in the shallows. Same stuff happened. But this time I could seethe float line going straight down to a crack at the bottom of the wall. As I would still dive for the whole day, I asked one of the guides if he could scuba dive to retrieve it because I didn't want t risk a freediving bends later in the day. Well, he did and took him almost 20 min to untangle the cable because the fish had criss-crossed all over inside the crack. The snapper was gone too. Back in the boat, he mentioned that it was a good thing that I didn't freedive myself and that the clear water deceived us: it was 135 ft. deep!

[JGrant]

I generally do everything I can to get my fish back. Bill has it all covered, perfectly. No fish is more important than me, or my friends. No spearshaft is worth more than my life, or my friends. I am not scuba certified, so I have no option but to try and overpower my fish before they skip town on me, and then if they tangle deep, I let the bastard die. I don't bother to go after them right away, unless it were a tournament. I just pile on the pressure, and wait 5 minutes. When i get to a hung up fish, I try to kill it if it is still fighting. Dead, but still tangled?? I split, and rest for 5 more minutes. Then, i go down, and cut the line, and pull the fish and shaft easily to the top. Once the shaft is back in the gun, or on the boat, and the fish is secure, I pull my line free, and retie, or replace the shaft. With no scuba around, this is the safest way you can deal with this situation.

I like that technique.

When using a reel, Mori enlightened me about putting your reel in freespool once you have located the fish and killed him.

On the next dive when you grab the fish/shaft and pull, you can often pull fish and line easily to the surface while reel peels off extra line.

[Tedbudion]

if you are in a spearfishing tournament, and you have to use the bottle to recover the fish, is it ethical to still enter the fish?

No, it's against the rules on freediving meets. You will be disqualified.

[Not Nate]

I like that technique.

When using a reel, Mori enlightened me about putting your reel in freespool once you have located the fish and killed him.

On the next dive when you grab the fish/shaft and pull, you can often pull fish and line easily to the surface while reel peels off extra line.

Did Mori tell you what to do if the fish takes all or almost all your line before tangling up?

[Bill McIntyre]

I like that technique.

When using a reel, Mori enlightened me about putting your reel in freespool once you have located the fish and killed him.

On the next dive when you grab the fish/shaft and pull, you can often pull fish and line easily to the surface while reel peels off extra line.

I always leave it in freespool too. I've mentioned this before, but a friend shot a big wsb in a raging current that had the kelp bent over to 20 feet. He managed to get down through the kelp and grab the fish, but his reel was not in freespool. So as he came up, he was pulling the gun down into the kelp. Just before he got to the surface, the gun hung up and he was forced to drop it. The current took the fish back down, and he was screwed. The current was too stiff to hunt for the gun.

He came back the next day with a tank and was very lucky. He found the fish and shaft on the bottom, then followed the reel line up into the kelp and found the gun.

[Nate Baker]

I always leave it in freespool too. I've mentioned this before, but a friend shot a big wsb in a raging current that had the kelp bent over to 20 feet. He managed to get down through the kelp and grab the fish, but his reel was not in freespool. So as he came up, he was pulling the gun down into the kelp. Just before he got to the surface, the gun hung up and he was forced to drop it. The current took the fish back down, and he was screwed. The current was too stiff to hunt for the gun.

He came back the next day with a tank and was very lucky. He found the fish and shaft on the bottom, then followed the reel line up into the kelp and found the gun.

He ate that fish too! Bonus! To finish that story, I burned an entire 72 looking for that fish the same day and failed. But we were lucky because we were live boating, and I happened to be right next to him in the boat when he lost everything. I immediately put in an MOB on the GPS, so he was able to find the spot the next day.

But that brings up a great point. When diving in raging current, a floatline is probably the best option. That way you won't have to worry about letting everything go if you can't fight the current. On a reel, you may have to choose between your gun and your life. With a float line, at worst you lose your floatline and shaft.

This was driven home to me last year when I had a cabrilla tie up at Isla Partida in a vicious current while I was using a reel. I had some anxious moments retreiving that fish. I told myself later that henceforth, whenever I dive the Midriff region, I'll rig with a floatline and float.

But as with almost all these discussions, it comes down to risk assessment and thinking everything through before you get in the water. You have to be prepared to pass on some fish if it looks like it's going to be trouble. Other times, you may have to write one off after you shoot it. But, ultimately, you have to be honest with yourself when you're in over your head and resolve yourself to take the safest route no matter what. I realize that sounds obvious and preachy, but we lose a lot of divers this way.

[Bill McIntyre]

how are the ascents on that backpack? do you start to runaway near the surface, or can you tuck a few extra lbs in it? i like the simplicity, but i also like to be able to control my buoyancy.. plus, my hp120 in the bow gets my little whaler up on plane nicely until i can spring for a new prop ;) (my fatass brother always likes to sit as far aft as possible without physically being in the water)

Is that directed to me and my pony bottle backpack?

If so, the ascents are fine. I just wear the same weightbelt that I'm wearing freediving. The tank actually makes it easier to mess around at depth because having air at ambient water pressure keep your chest from being squeezed and so you are not as negative down there.

However, the pack does have a pocket at the bottom for weights, and a rip cord on the shoulder to drop them. After I found that I never used weights, I just removed the ripcord.

But all that said, if you have the room or don't mind carrying a full sized tank in the boat, then that's obviously the best option. That way you can take all the time in the world with a fish or an anchor.

[Bill McIntyre]

This is a good thread, I just got a boat, and planned to bring my BCD/tank, for purposes discussed .... but this is pretty slick... Hopefully, I wouldnt have to stay under too long to cut kelp, or free an ancor, but wonder how long a pony bottle lasts? (in general, I know depth affects air/time)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g287/cmfierro/Boat/quickpac.jpg

That pack will hold 19 cubic foot and 13 cubic foot pony bottles. I have one of each, but obviously the 19 is the best choice.

I wish I could tell you how long they last, but I haven't paid attention to time at various depths. So far at least, they have given me plenty of time to get down as deep as 80 feet or so, untangle a fish or anchor, and come back up with a few hundred pounds showing on the guage.

BTW, that pack is made by SeaSoft.

[rojodiablo]

I like that technique.

When using a reel, Mori enlightened me about putting your reel in freespool once you have located the fish and killed him.

On the next dive when you grab the fish/shaft and pull, you can often pull fish and line easily to the surface while reel peels off extra line.

Yes, usually that works perfectly. But I go in with a knife in hand, and if anything hangs up?? I cut the line. Easy enough to retie on the surface. And this I have done as deep as 90 feet to retrieve YT, and 75ft for WSB. With that long of a haul to the top, I want no fight or resistance. Spotters if available are very comforting.

[greekdiver]

Retrieving a holed fish isnt that bad unless its super deep or the current is blazing.

If i shoot a nice size fish with my reel, i try to prevent it from holing up if possible. I have my reel on free spool and I control the line with my hands. When you are deep, its harder. If i'm are 50ft or less, i can fight him quite a bit before it holes up. All it usually takes is a couple good pulls and the fish wont hole up unless you are shooting huge fish.

If it holes up, i just surface and relax. I dont hurry back down because thats how you get in trouble. You need that long surface time to recover and relax.

If i have a nice size fish, i try to secure it with a kill shot on my 2nd dive. Since you can follow your line where the fish is, your 2nd dive is very precise. When you have 2 spears in a fish, you also have better leverage moving the fish in hole and the fish will die sooner. You dont use that much oxygen pulling on something and pulling power isnt what gets that grouper out. Your legs is what kills your air so try use them as least as possible.

Sometime the shooting line is all tangled up. I just cut it and use my spare gun for the rest of the day. If the fish is deep, i would use variable weight.

[tommy7]

if you use scuba to recover a fish at 70', are you able to continue freediving that day or will you be subject to the benz? just curious.

[Q]

A 70' dive for lets say 5 min.. I would think you would need to off gas for only a short 20 min... but I would give it 30 to be sure.



Q.

[ralphthehalibut]

Rojodiablo,
Agree about the beach dive, you are sh#t out of luck. The guys that I dive with know that if they have a deep fish they automatically get one of us as a spotter. Guess thats your only option on beach dives. Keeping an eye on your fellow diver is the key.


Rob "Daybreak"


A spare Air is an option on beach dives as well. they don't get in the way, don't affect you in any way, and can save your life. worth the investment IMO (and no I don't work for them. I just believe in them0

[mokaction]

Yeah, its been discussed before, but I'll repeat myself.

I carry a couple of pony bottles, and I won't hesitate to use one for a fish or an anchor hung up deep. But one time when I confessed to using a tank to recover a fish in a post on freedivelist, I got some private email telling me I wasn't really a freediver, and that if I was going to do such a thing, I shouldn't admit it publicly. I guess my replies were less than polite.

.

If anyone ever told me that I would tell them to meet me somewhere and I would give them the 1-2.. LOL..

In our sport there are many old fats like me and you Bill Mc and others over 40.

Not to many of us older guys die compared to stupid ass young guys that take to many risk..

At 40+ I have nothing to prove to anyone, but myself. ;)

Also I think to be a responsable freediver you should get certified. You should be a full water man. Do you think all the deep breatholders don't have safty teams with scuba on??

And if you own a boat you should always have a tank in case of emergencies. Even Tommy7 is certified.. :)


Larry

[mokaction]

We need something like this.. Underwater breather 007

Larry

[patrick]

i would go so far as to suggest getting your rescue diver cert. i can buy and fill an o2 kit, or i should say i could if i could afford one, and ive practiced physically giving rescue breaths in the water, administering o2 and doing cpr fully decked out in my dive gear... you learn how to drag people out of the ocean, i did mine in overhead surf... i feel like a much more confident diver..

[tommy7]

And if you own a boat you should always have a tank in case of emergencies. Even Tommy7 is certified..


Larry
__________________

Larry,
I have never breathed a drop of compressed air at least not from a scuba tank:p. I have thought that it might be cool to explore wrecks or deep caverans but I like freediving so much that I doubt I will ever do it. I have tons of friends who love to scuba, its just not my cup-o-tea.:rolleyes:
Tommy

[JGrant]

Did Mori tell you what to do if the fish takes all or almost all your line before tangling up?

Yeah, don't shoot the fish in free spool,

retrieve the fish in free spool...

[mokaction]

And if you own a boat you should always have a tank in case of emergencies. Even Tommy7 is certified..


Larry
__________________

Larry,
I have never breathed a drop of compressed air at least not from a scuba tank:p. I have thought that it might be cool to explore wrecks or deep caverans but I like freediving so much that I doubt I will ever do it. I have tons of friends who love to scuba, its just not my cup-o-tea.:rolleyes:
Tommy

Correction,, Tommy had me get his spear shaft on scuba at rats rock anacapa. ;)

I guess he just calls me in case of emergency. LOL..

Larry

[tommy7]

Yes Larry, you found my shaft and my pal Phil found my metal tech 3 that I dropped while fighting a fish :p.....it's all good :)

[Seacidal]

Even mere freediving can increase your risk of getting DCS. Certainly, breathing compressed air at that depth would only add to that. But not too many freedivers, myself included, put in the kind of freediving performance required to develop a DCS hit.