Yamaha 4-stroke v. Bombardier Ficht

[RabiSpear]

Alright Spearboarders,
I need some honest advice on engines. In our quest to re-power, we must sort through multiple sales pitches and find the truth somewhere in the middle. My knee-jerk reaction was that Yamaha is the only way to go after slogging through many ruined trips from E-rude.

However, as some of you may or may not know, Bombardier purchased E-rude and has set about reforming the business and manufactoring practices in a major way. I could really go into it, but suffice to say that it sounds really good. The result of these changes is the new Bombardier/E-rude Ficht technology. The engines supposedly come with a three-year no service guarantee and are now being used OVER Yamaha's on many new boat models from major manufactorers like Intrepid. There are reasons for this other than reliability. Specifically, performance-wise, the Ficht's blow the 4-strokes out of the water (on paper). Anyway, I am looking for actual owners experiences with one or both of these engines. Remember, if you owned a '85 E-rude and didn't like it, that isn't helpful. So, 4-stroke or Ficht?

Also, what have you all done with your old engines? Re-sale seems to be a tough road to go. Are there any scrap places that take them. We don't want to just throw them away, but that seems to be the only option.

[Bottom Dweller]

I love my 4-strokes (225), 330 hrs and no problem, just a couple of oil changes and 1 set of spark plugs. You would defineltly get a little over 2 MPG on your cat with the Yamaha's. I average about 1.8 - 2.0 mpg on my 25 Ranger with full loads.

I don't know much about the new E-rudes but I not sure they have all the kinks out. Tommy from Top Cat Marine in LOL is on this board and he sells them. He could probably give you the most up to date info on them, although a little biased:D .

[Spearchucker]

HPDI - hmmmmmm........

[100days-a-year]

Bombadier/Rotax/Can-am makes the best 2 stroke motors on earth.I love my Yamaha 2 stroke but got a serious deal.$ strokes,I mean 4strokes(same key,funny huh?) cost more,have more maintainance costs,are heavier,slower but are quieter.The chances are good that bugs will be worked out.Yamaha 2 strokes have very expensive replacement parts so I assume that the 4 strokes will as well.Bombadier makes snowmobile and jetski motors that kick serious booty.You have a great problem,I hope to have it soon;).

[Bottom Dweller]

100 days, What maintaince costs??:rolleyes:

[100days-a-year]

BD,I blieve' you mentioned oil changes and sparkplugs already,whats your manual say about all those moving parts in the valvetrain?Don't they have a service interval?If they don't then I'll retract that part.I always have had the experience of more moving parts=more maintenance.The original Fichts proved that more advanced wasn't always.Still a 25' boat still loses a 100 pounds or so of capacity and the weight isn't in a great place for most boats.BTW,performance bulletins are available at manufactuirers websites for mileage and speed type info.

[Steel Shootin']

How do they get modern 2 stroke powerheads to burn such little oil? Given that there is combustion every other stroke, the oil obviously has to be mixed with the gas. With the direct injection, fuel is injected at a higher pressure, and not mixed with oil at that point (right?), but still, the oil must wind-up in with the gas during combustion to lube the pistons, etc (2-stroke powerheads have no piston rings, right?).

It's pretty impressive that in a two stroke motor they can now burn so much less oil. I assume it's a result of the added compression (i.e., not just the compression caused by the piston, but the compression caused by injectors)???

How much does a 250 Ficht cost?

[Bottom Dweller]

Oil changes are every 100 hours and spark plugs are supposed to be every 100. I do my oil changes and my lower unit every 100 but the spark plugs I just check the gap and re gap if needed every 50 hrs. My first set lasted 200 hrs and I changed them because I didn't want to have problems. I believe they might have lasted twice as long and am going to see on the set that is the motors now. The mechanic I deal with, if I can't do it myself, indicated that the valve clearance was to be checked every 400 hrs and reset if needed. He and another big dealer in Tampa also said they hadn't seen one out of udjustment yet as of about six months ago. Honest, oil changes are easier than on any car and so are lower units. The filters are the biggest cost at $20 a piece. I run Valvoline oil in them per my mechanics instruction and ot Yamaha Oil. This maintaince just seems cheaper when you consider with twins you might use three to four gallons of oil per middlegrounds trip which is minimum $40 per trip for maybe six or seven hours of run time. One oil change for twins is about $55($40 for filter and $15 for 12 quarts of oil) and that's every 100 hours. Total cost for my YEAR (300 hours) is about $165. Lower units have to be done on any motors. Thats ruffly 4 middlegrounds trips worth of 2-stroke oil. I think.:D Oh yeah, my spark plugs are $5 a piece and I know Optimax plugs are a lot higher than that and I believe the E-rudes are as well but I'm not sure.

2-stroke pistons do have rings and they like to stick at times.

[junior]

Originally posted by Bottom Dweller
2-stroke pistons do have rings and they like to stick at times.

That is the typical death of many an outboard. I've been told that the rims of the intake and exhaust ports on some motors are just built differently and the sharper these edges are, the more likely they are to "grab" a ring. A side by side comparison of a Yamaha 2-stroke and other brands shows that the machine work just appears to be smoother in this area. I'm no mechanic, but it makes sense to me that better engineering "in" equals longer life and better performance over the long haul. You pay for it upfront, but I sure do love the sound of my old Yammie starting up with a short lil twitch of the key when I'm twenty plus miles out. Just my .02

p.s. It is possible that other manufacturers are putting a little more into their engines these days so I would check around with some mechanics that work on all engines, not just a yamaha guy or a e-rude guy...

[dagodiver]

Originally posted by Scott
How do they get modern 2 stroke powerheads to burn such little oil? Given that there is combustion every other stroke, the oil obviously has to be mixed with the gas. With the direct injection, fuel is injected at a higher pressure, and not mixed with oil at that point (right?), but still, the oil must wind-up in with the gas during combustion to lube the pistons, etc (2-stroke powerheads have no piston rings, right?).

It's pretty impressive that in a two stroke motor they can now burn so much less oil. I assume it's a result of the added compression (i.e., not just the compression caused by the piston, but the compression caused by injectors)???

How much does a 250 Ficht cost?

The rings are there just not the oil wiping ring "not needed"
The oil is put in on the con-rod side of the piston during the
up stroke "where the tops making pressure and the bottoms
making vacum" what little oil passes buy is burned, no big deal.
the reason the piston stays cool is the fuel spray on the
head of the piston the lube comes from the oil on the other side.
So the factory sets the engine a little lean "more HP" with
no ill effect because the fuel is not carring the lube.
"much more efficiant"
I have an inboard so i didnt check the box...:D :D :D

[Steel Shootin']

Thanks, Dago. One of these days I'd really like to see one of these engines taken apart and rebuilt.

What I meant to say is that the two strokes have no valves. There is only the compression stroke, and the combustion stroke, with the piston acting like a vacuum to bring in the fuel, oil and air to the combustion chamber (in a carberated engine).

But with direct injection, what I am trying to understand is how the oil, fuel and air are introduced to the combustion chamber. They are obviously not mixed in a carburetor. And is the compression enhanced by pressurized fuel, as opposed to just being created by the compression stroke of the piston? :confused:

[Spearchucker]

I use two gallons of oil per middlegrounds trip

My plugs have been in the motors for over 200 hours and look fine.

I have had ZERO problems with my HPDI's

I will now let BottomDweller continue, as he gets very worked up about this issue :)

[RabiSpear]

I don't want to stoke any fires, but I did think that I would put on some stuff about the Ficht Technology for the simple reason that it isn't as well known or widely used as the Yamaha. It really looks good on paper. So consider this for educational purposes only:

http://www.evinrude.com/docs/200/1_US.htm
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/031030/305848_1.html

Thanks for all of the input so far. It has been very helpful.

[dagodiver]

Originally posted by Scott
Thanks, Dago. One of these days I'd really like to see one of these engines taken apart and rebuilt.

What I meant to say is that the two strokes have no valves. There is only the compression stroke, and the combustion stroke, with the piston acting like a vacuum to bring in the fuel, oil and air to the combustion chamber (in a carberated engine).

But with direct injection, what I am trying to understand is how the oil, fuel and air are introduced to the combustion chamber. They are obviously not mixed in a carburetor. And is the compression enhanced by pressurized fuel, as opposed to just being created by the compression stroke of the piston? :confused:

Scott stop by my house i always have one or two on the
work bence apart....
Fuel is compressible so it doesent really make that much comp.
difference. the oil is not introduced on the head side no need for
it.
the good fuel miliage comes from efficiency; remember
1 gallon of gas can make 12 horsepower for one hour..
in the lab of course.
The HPDI makes this happen buy making the surface area of
the fuel greater buy making many little droplet's instead of
a few big one's IE carbs.....
Also remember;
1 gallon of diesel fuel makes 18 horsepower for one hour...
plus torq is 2:1 on the diesel and we all know HP burns fuel
and torq moves boats...
Just my .02
Dago...
Spearchucker HPDI's:) :) :)

[100days-a-year]

BD,what's the valve adjustment going to run?I think you can get a little more life outta plugs,but it's time to change when they decide.I pay $3 per plug at Wally World or just over a Boaters World and change 1 time a year,clean every 50 hrs.Oil for me is $6 per gallon at you guessed it Wally World.Pump puts it on from 50 to1 to 200to1 so I would burn 2 to 3 gallons on a trip that far.(I usually max at 40miles)

[bgbill]

Originally posted by 100days-a-year
Oil for me is $6 per gallon at you guessed it Wally World.Pump puts it on from 50 to1 to 200to1 so I would burn 2 to 3 gallons on a trip that far.(I usually max at 40miles)

I would not recommend using the Oil from Walmart, the mechanics I have talked have all said to use the oil made by the engine manufacturers, such as OMC, Yamaha or Mercury. They have said that when they tear down a motor they can tell if cheap oil has been used.

Even though the oil you buy from Wally World is TCW3, they say it is not the same as produced by the engine manufacturers.

You can buy the oil in bulk for about $11.00 gallon for the regular oil or about $13.50 for synthetic.

I have a 1996 225 Johnson Ocean Runner, It is a carbeurated engine with tons of hours on it, it has always had bulk oil put in it. I recently switched to the Ficht synthetic oil and it seems to run better on the synthetic.

When I do repower it I am seriously considering the Ficht.

[Bottom Dweller]

Spearchucker, you were not asked to coment on this issue. You have HPDI's which I THINK ARE THE BEST ENGINES EVER MADE AND I AM JUST PISSED I DON'T HAVE THEM:D :D :D

100 days, I'm not sure on the cost but I would guess a couple hundred bucks knowing the mechanics. Thank God I have friends who are marine mechanics. The oil prices were ball park. I know some sells for up to $18 a gallon and I don't know if you can run the cheap stuff in the direct injection motors? I'm with you thow on the cheap stuff, used to run $5 or $6 per gallon oil from discount auto with my last pair of 2-strokes.

[Ed Walker]

if you ask me Id take the for sure good thing (Yamaha) over something that is "supposed to be good" or "will be soon". The whole OMC fiasco was enough for me to say Id never try one again. They left a lot of folks hanging out to dry and I dont think thier marine business will ever recover from it. Their motors never did hold a candle to Yamaha or Merc. I have run MANY of both. They may be trying hard to catch up but who wants a motor thats trying to catch up with Yamaha when you can have the real deal. I get a new 225 every year (my Merc Opti is for sale now with 2 yrs warranty if you're interested) and have considered 4 strokes but for my boat they are simply too heavy. It puts the scuppers under water on the Dorado 23. They are very sluggish out of the hole too. They do run smooth and quiet though. If I were picking from your choices I would go Yamaha 225 HPDI.

[Steel Shootin']

Originally posted by dagodiver
Scott stop by my house i always have one or two on the
work bence apart.... Dago, that would be great. I'll take you up on that. Thanks!

[Big Pig]

Rabi

You need to speak with a buddy of mine. He did his research and repowered with twin 250 Bombs last year. Yes he got a good deal, but he is considering selling the POS and repowering with HDPIs. One of the outboards has consistantly given him problems and nobody can figure out the problem. PM me if you want to talk to him directly. He might just make you a good deal on the 250 Bombs.

IMHO Stick with Japanese engines. I know you probably want the 4 strokes, but don't overlook the HDPI.

[100days-a-year]

Bombadier will help restore the name,but it will take a few years.The originals sucked bad,had several buddies have powerhead problems.HPDI and Opti seem to offer the best mix of price,reliability and expense of operation.After almost 8 yrs of use at 75 to 100 days on the water and using el-cheapo oil(but still TC-W3)I still have from 125 to 135 psi in my cylinders.Propped right it still runs out to 5200 rpm and will idle for hours kingfishing.I am a big Yamaha fan.

[RabiSpear]

Thanks for the advice guys. I realize that I was comparing apples to oranges with the 4-stroke v. Ficht. I will take a hard look at the HPDI technology. Once again, I have benefitted from the knowledge of others here on Spearboard. Thanks again.

[Ray Odor]

Rabbi-I can't say enough good things about my 2002 Bombadier225. I use 1/2
to 1/3 less fuel and at least 1/3 less oil. Unbelievable with any motor
before. Also, they are 100# lighter than the same size 4 cycle.Smoothe,
Quite and Fast. Only drawback is you have to reset or change plugs every 100
Hrs.and they have to be put in a certain way. Besides, my boat would have sunk with that extra 100 pounds hanging on the stern.---Ray Odor