"Near Miss" Bulletins

[Geoff Apthorp]

One of the practices I have seen in both military publications and in the better industrial environments is "Near Miss" bulletins where accidents and near accidents are described - along with recommendations to fix the contributing issues. This type of info sharing is especially beneficial for "mission critical" engagements like flying, operating heavy equipment, handling toxic chemicals etc. The entire aviation community for example, gets to learn from the incident reports. DAN's "Alert Diver" publication prints incident reports - mostly tourists and inexperienced divers. however, We could maintain a forum like this for hunters.

I don't want to dwell on or promote unpleasant topics in Spearboard - but I have learned alot from other divers in the short time I've participated here and I've been diving for over 20 years.

Here's a "near miss" of mine:

Date - Can't remember

Location - Middle grounds
Depth 135'. 2 day trip. This dive was on the morning of the second day. I was tired.

Background: First time spearing AJ's.
Solo , no buddy diver. Drift diving.

Equipment: Steel 80. Biller 60 with reel and kevlar lanyard. Uwatec Alladdin wrist mount computer.

ConditionsSeas less than 2 feet. Good visibility.

Incident Description: Late in the dive, I shot 40 lb class AJ on the bottom. Poor shot placement on the AJ. AJ takes off. In the ensuing fight and entanglement I plowed through the remainder of my gas, ignored the computer alarms while I was doing brain surgery on the AJ. Ended up doing an emergency ascent from 80 feet. Got two breaths off my "empty tank". SOS'd my computer.

No DCS symptoms reaching the surface. Since we were 100 miles offshore, as a preventative measure, I took an 80% mix from my buddies off the boat to 15 foot depth and did an in water standard Navy deco.

Corrective Actions:
1) I always dive with a bailout pony bottle.
2) I free shaft 99% of the time to avoid entanglements. I've lost one shaft in the last 3 years. I'm no dead-eye shot, but I'm not as lazy about shot placement now.
3) If I can't get decent position stalking the fish (to have a resonably good chance of stoning it, or pinning it to the bottom) I wont' take the shot.
4) I prefer buddy diving over solo.
5) I continue to stay in good physical shape. I think the reason I did not embolize or get DCS during this incident was because I was in good physical shape at the time.
6) I read up on in-water recompression and would not do it again.
7) I rarely go to the grounds the night before. I'll sleep at home and get up early so I' not as whipped as driving and sleeping two nights on the water.
8) When I do line shaft an AJ, it's with Kevin's speed load mono which does not tankgel like kevlar line. I try to get to the fish quick and rake it's gills with the knife before doing "brain surgery".

What do you guys think about a forum like this?

[Spear One]

Sage advice!

[eyyeball]

Excellent idea, and a good post that I learned from thank you.

[f94gator]

Very good post

[LuvMyRedDog]

That's exactly what these safety threads are for.

You're exactly right on avoiding the in water recompression. If you have to surface, and you missed your deco stop, then your best bet is to sit on the boat while breathing that 80% mix.

[Slay Ride]

Did you go back into the water to 15' as your post says? Is that really the recommend procedure? As LMRD said and I've been told you're to stay up once up. Any more opinions? Les

[Marcus]

Great info!

[Geoff Apthorp]

I followed a protocol the Captain had on a plastic slate. Averaged 15-20 feet.

I carry 80% and 100% 0xygen on board my boat now and
I should have stayed topside on 100% O2. My "less than stellar" thinking was that I had less than 2 minutes on the surface prior to grabbing the 80% scrub mix from my buddy. We thought we could prevent a massive bends "hit " even though I had no symptoms in the first 2 minutes on the surface. A compelling reason for the IWR was we were 100 miles offshore where we may or may not have gotten USCG assist had I required it.

Here's agood overview of the limited pros and mostly cons of IWR.

http://www.bishopmuseum.org/research/treks/palautz97/iwr.html

Thanks for the feedback. I understand the Safety Topic Area is for postings such as mine above, but I have not read many delineating root causes and corrective actions. However, I still have learned a great deal from the divers on Spearboard.

I did not know Carlson Young but I was deeply saddened to learn of his accident via Spearboard. If our info exchanges here help just one diver then this is a priceless forum.

[RichT]

Geoff,
Its a great idea but I will be surprised if you get a lot of people admitting to their major screw ups.
The difference between some of those other forums and publications is the anonymity factor.
Its hard to be a anonymous on this forum.
I hope Im wrong.
It is fun reading about these kinds of storys.
I dont think I will post any of my storys just yet, but lets just say if you do this sport long enough you WILL have some close calls.
The key is never to become complacent no matter how long youve been doing it. It only takes one mistake and it can be all over.:(

[Geoff Apthorp]

Rich - well said! I hope folks will share their experiences. Then everybody benefits.

Geoff

[Red Tide]

As most of you know, I am usally part of the peanut gallery on most of the posts that I jump in on. So it may come as a suprise that this thread has my serious interest.
Geoff, I have been thinking about a thread like this myself. There is an old saying that goes something like this "A wise man learns from his own mistakes, but a truly wise man learns from the mistakes of others"
I too had a near death experience with an A.J.................
I was diving on the Pillsbury with D4B, Bucket One, and Financial Advise a few years ago. I was on the bottom in 110" with a full stringer of grouper and snaper. I looked at my gauges and noticed that I had 600 lbs of air and was close to deco. No brainer, just head up to the surface and life would be good. Well, as I left the wreck I was looking down and noticed a 20 lb grouper floating belly up in the wreck. I went back down from 75" to about 90 feet and grabbed him off the wreck. I then squeezed him on the stringer with the other 20 or so fish and started back for the surface. I checked my gauges and noticed that I now had 400 lbs of air and was ready to flip into deco. I stayed calm controlled my breathing and everything was going great.
At about 50" a school of A.J. s came by. Lucky for them I had a full stringer and not much interest. Well, here comes the 70 plus pounder. He circles me, swims up to me, and looks me in the eye. I look at my gauge and see 400 lbs of air still remain. I say to my self "I can stone this fish"( He is only 2 feet away ) I take perfect aim behind the eye and out the the bottom lip on the otherside. Pull the trigger and bam, I am drugg straight to the bottom so fast my mask almost tears off. Now, I am standing on the sand bottom about 50 feet from the wreck with this Jack kicking my butt. All of the sudden I take a breath and you guessed it, no air........
Now I am in nightmare mode with a 110 feet of water over my head, my heart pounding, and just fliped deco. Fuuuuuuuuuckkkkkkkkkkkk!
I did have enough air in my BC to aid me in my assent to the surface. I paid strict attention to the air in my lungs and released as I was going up.
Now for the luck.......D4B was doing a deco stop at 30 feet, and I was approaching him. However when I got with in 10 feet of him he started for the surface not knowing that I was below him. I screamed at him, and he actually heard me. I gave him the no air signal and he hooked me up. We stayed together while I cleared deco, and we went back to the boat. Needless to say this experience left a mark. Every time I go to the Pillsbury I get creeped out. Every time I stone a Jack I wonder what happend that day. Greed has killed and injured many divers. Don't let it happen to you.
D4B, I still owe you brother.

[Diver Dan]

Mr. Apthorpe, Great post! This is exactly the reason why oxygen should always be carried. Much better to have 100% oxygen on the boat than any other option. Glad it worked out as well as it did!

[Geoff Apthorp]

Red Tide - Outstanding!

You're right on about learning (alot) from the mistakes of others - I've many times wanted to put one more fish on my stringer in with marginal gas status - your story makes me think twice about that. I bet you remember with great clarity that moment when you were out of air on the bottom wrasslin the AJ. You obviously employed your dive training well. I too was kind of surprised how in the moment I employed my dive training despite the fear factor.

Thank you for postingyour near miss. Red Tide - We must have good karma because we are both truly lucky divers.

Diver Dan - tell us one of your war stories!

Geoff

[Slay Ride]

Good Stuff Geoff and Dan. I let a stringer of fish pull me up very quickly in 127' of water. Blew past a safety stop and got on the boat sucking on 80% O2. And all I could think about was getting on an airplane the next morning for a business trip. Scary to say the least. I have learned a lot on this site and it's great to hear people's stories as it will may us all think. What I learned from that episode is disconnect your stringer before making your assent. Now I actually go through a little routine of checking everything before assending. Used to just start up and manuever stringer, gun, computer, and such on my way up. Not anymore. It makes for a more comfortable assent if all you have to worry about is your depth (and critters around you).

PS. Geoff I was not being critical by asking more questions, just making sure I know what "should" be done.

[Geoff Apthorp]

Hey Slay Ride - No problemo - I think it is excellent that everyone is asking questions and challenging each other.

I did not see your questions as being critical or condescending in any way. When it comes to safety, I think everyone should have a "thick skin and broad shoulders". That tip you shared could save someone's life someday.

To answer your question, I think the right procedure regarding IWR is to not do it - Consensus here and in the dive literature seems to be to stay on the surface on 100% O2 under close supervision. I now carry the DAN procedures on board for DCS checks and symptom reminders along with CPROX protocols.

Like you, I think unloading a few things pre-ascent is a great thought because we are multitasking and many times overloading on the way up to the surface. I've tried sending my stringer/catch up on a lift bag and then hang on it for my safety stops.

Multiple benefits to your idea. 1) If anything on the stringer comes back from the dead (and it happens) we don't have to f*** with it on the way up. 2) Won't artifically accelerate the ascent (sometimes I stab the swim bladders and sometimes not). 3) Gets the blood trail and those damn sharp sticker fins away from the diver (nails me through the wetsuit sometimes).
4) Shows the pickup boat where we are early. 5) Makes the safety stops more stable and less work!

Slay Ride - thanks for your inputs. Very valuable and very much appreciated. I am learning alot - hope everyone else is too.

Thanks, Geoff

[Slay Ride]

Let's continue with this. You said you float your fish up and maybe even pop the swim bladders. I've floated lobsters and such but always felt safer with my fish close at hand as the predators keep their distance as I'm too big for them. On the other side. What about a 15' small ID rope attached to your stringer and you let the fish float during your safety stop. Would predetors be inclined to go to the surface for an easy meal. I just don't want to start a feeding frenzy. Thoughts? I think most people keep their fish with them. Are there other/better/safer ways of doing things?

[Geoff Apthorp]

I think your guess would be as good as mine on the potential predator behavior.

I've "floated" my catch, with sharks and no sharks in the area. Your idea of a 15' lanyard seems good - keeping the catch close but not on top of you.

In the instance where we floated our catch with sharks around, we saw some intermittently aggressive reef sharks off West Palm - they'd been fed in the past ( according to the Captain). And they stayed the same distance away from us. Others we saw just were on their way out , leaving the scene. However, this Captain, who I respect, recommended using a lift bag as opposed to carrying the catch up. She stayed on top of us pretty much.

Anybody else have a more informed opinion here?

[Sheri]

Goeff,

Excellent idea on the "near miss" reports. I have a couple near misses which are still hard for me to talk about, but if they help save someone's life, I should talk about it. I've had a couple near misses with boat propellors, a really bad shark attack, but the one that bothers me the most is breathing from the wrong deco mix at depth, during a tech dive. I'll write more about that one later, but for now....regarding lifting your fish....

A couple years ago, while scuba diving, we had several bullshark incidences in a row. So I staring sending all fish up, one at a time on a sausage type liftbags with bronze C clips. I put the clip through the fish lip, and I can send big groupers and cobias up on these small liftbags. It works fine.

I go down with about 5 or 6 rolled up bags (that's enough for here), and I've not had a shark problem since. Of course, you have to have a boat captain who is willing to pick them up, but it's never been a problem, and I've got more and more friends doing it now. In fact, it's kind of interesting to see what comes up while it's your turn to drive. I've only had one fish bitten in half in the last couple years. I believe that has done a lot to increase our safety in the water.

If you're not going to send them up, I would advise you at least take the time to see that you've really dispatched the fish. Sometimes you think you've done a good job, only to feel the vibrations against your leg. That is exactly what drives sharks crazy. That vibration is worse than blood for attracting sharks.

Incidentally, it's not the sharks I can see that worry me, it's the ones that I don't see. You can intimidate them by holding the bag close to you, and they are less inclined to munch on your bag, but the bigger and hungrier ones will come in on you. I heard diligaf yelling something underwater once, and turned to see a sickeningly huge hammerhead latched on to his catchbag. We never even saw this monstrous creature sneaking in from behind. Seems like most times they are always coming in from behind. Call me paranoid, but I look back a lot.

[Geoff Apthorp]

Sheri:

I guess Bulls are especially noted for attacks from behind. One rolled in on me in the Keys from aft of the beam and I'm glad I happened to catch movement in my peripheral vision.

I think your practice of individual floats is excellent and I'm going to try it as well. It's even better than employing one lift bag at the end of the dive.

We look forward to hearing about your experiences as another learning forum for everyone.

And, by the way, I was wowed by your beautiful tuna! Congrats!!


Geoff

[bgbill]

Sheri,

That is why it is best to bag the second stage on your deco reg, that way you know for sure it is the deco reg and not tox yourself.

It is also a good idea to clearly mark the MOD of the mix.

[joel mcqueen]

just read a article about diver who died when he went straight to bottom with his air off he had a couple of breaths on way down then switched to his octo by the time he hit bottom no air for bc and could not reach his valve he was found on bottom bc half off the thing is when everone is in a hurry to be first to bottom you jump in bc completely deflated and if you did check your air on the way out then turned it off like most of us do the diver in this case did not check it again before jumping in and was not able to reach his valve you can see how this could happen with everyone in a hurry to get ot the bottom makes you think about checking everything twice once in the boat and again on the surface just before decent i know ill be in less of a hurry to get to the bottom from now on

[fishspearit]

My "near miss" happened about 9 years ago in the Keys, where I was a new instructor out on nitrox dives with one student. I had gotten pretty relaxed, diving nitrox every day, and was on the second dive that morning. We jumped in, went straight to the bottom at about 50' where I was noticing my air tasted a little funny. Not real bad, just kind of stale tasting. I considered continuing the dive, decided against it, signaled the student I was having gear problems, and went back up to the boat. Took my gear off the tank, cracked the valve, and the air was foul enough to smell 10' away. Later got the tank analyzed and it was something like 20% CO, combustion caused by a tank that was just entered into nitrox service with silicone on the threads, then O2 added. I had trusted the dive shop owner, my boss and Nitrox instructor, and just loaded the tanks on the boat in a hurry that morning. I often wonder what would have happened if my student had gotten the tank on the first dive and thought "this nitrox stuff tastes funny" while we were at 100'.
But anyway, the lessons I learned are of course always sample your own tank, no matter how much you trust someone else; and the biggest lesson is that I always purge my reg in my face and take a big whiff of the air before I dive. A lot of people are taught to put the reg in your mouth and taste it, but that just doesn't work well. The smell test is much more effective.

[swimndive]

fishspearit, For the record CO is tasteless, colorless, odorless and has an affinity for hemoglobin (the stuff that transports O2 in your blood) 200 times greater than oxygen. Breathing anything more than 20 parts per million can have severe consequences. Twenty percent is 200,000 ppm. and would be almost instantly fatal. Are you sure you're not talking about a low O2 content? Of the shops that I know that actually test for CO, all use the test strip type sentry devices. Who makes the analyzer you used? I think that the smell you spoke about could have come from a dirty tank, an overused filter stack or even an overworked compressor. I do agree that if your air smells you shouldn't use it, but I also feel that you shouldn't first become aware of it on the boat. I personally don't breathe anything that I haven't analyzed first and marked as such. Anything not properly marked doesn't make the trip, it's really that simple. ed

[fishspearit]

I never saw the actual results of the air analysis, I was just told that it was a toxic level of CO, and that the air contained the byproducts of combustion(which caused the odor). Fortunately I only breathed on it for a short period of time. The guy confessed to me after inspecting the tank that there was burnt silicone on the internal threads , and the tank wasn't cleaned properly. This was the first time pure O2 had entered this tank. It was 9 years ago, I don't remember exactly how the predive sampling happened, but after the dive we checked and it still had close to the proper amount of O2. The compressor had a CO detector, but the analyzer was only checking O2. I think the only way it could have been caught was smelling it when it was being sampled, or before diving, which it wasn't. It was pretty clearly a case of a used tank not being properly oxygen clean prior to adding pure O2. Enough oxygen still there to pass a sample, and enough CO to cause problems.

[swimndive]

fisspearit, An O2 flash is entirely preventable and is totally inexcusable in my opinion. I hope everybody involved learned a valuable lesson that day. A smell test or a perhaps surface pre-breathe as you have mentioned would have been the only way you could have discovered such an error.

[Geoff Apthorp]

They say that a burning cigarette creates several hundred airborne toxic chemicals in its smoke. I bet burning silicone is even worse - maybe what you smelled is a by product of the heated silicone? Maybe there was an issue with the dive shop's compressor too. I've visually inspected tanks from "bad compressors" that look like the inside of a used oil can.


Your bottom line point is, do we know what is in our tanks?

Joel and Fish Spearit - - thanks for passing along your near misses.

Geoff

[sharpshooter]

A very long time ago, I open the tank valve and gave the reg a few light taps. Yep, the air gauge needle stayed at 3100 psi. Good to go. The boat coasted up to the maker jug. I stuck the reg in my mouth and flipped overboard. Hit the water and took a real good drag on the reg. Something hit one of my tonsils and I started coughing. On the surface floating around and coughing, I ended up spitting out a small coachroach. Some how it had gotten into my reg. What if it had crawled into my mouth at 130' and started me coughing uncontrollably? Now, I give my reg. a good blast under full pressure before going over. See ya!!!

[dagodiver]

Great thread...great info.
Sheri the wrong deco mix is always the biggest thing on my mind.
I keep both deco mix's off then when i get to the bottom i
open each one just to put some pressure in them, then at
my first gas switch i put the reg in my mouth look at the MOD on the deco bottle turn it on breath then turn it off until it stops
then turn it back on again. Usually i check it again after a minute
or so, i dont now why but the wrong mix at the wrong depth is
alway my biggest fear. This is just the way i do it not the rite way
just my way.
Dago

[swimndive]

Dago and Sheri, Here is a well-proven procedure for doing gas switches. Before you enter the water make sure that all stage regs are securely parked and all deco bottles valves are off. Leave the bottles alone until you ascend to the appropriate switch depth. When you get to the switch depth, face your buddy and one of you begins your gas switch while the other watches. The "watcher" needs to be ready with the long hose in case there is a problem. To perform a switch, you must first identify the correct bottle by its MOD label, and then you can deploy the reg by putting it around your neck. Once the reg has been deployed slightly depress the purge valve and slowly turn on the gas while watching the pressure gauge. You should always pressurize your regs this way to prevent hp seat damage. Purge the reg of any debris and then place the reg in your mouth and take a breath. If you can breathe, you are breathing the right gas. If the needle moves while you are breathing, you have not opened the valve sufficiently. You can now watch your buddy do his switch. Don't forget to park your primary once you have completed your switches. If you are doing another switch, you need to re-stow the deeper bottle before you begin your switch to the shallower one. You'll probably be doing a cleanup break on backgas anyway, so you'll have plenty of time to re-arrange your bottles. After you finish your cleanup, you proceed as you did on the first switch. If a reg is not in your mouth, it needs to parked or clipped off, period. I can't emphasize this too much, always park your regs.

Sorry Bret, I think poodle jackets on deco regs are an attempt overcome a skill deficiency by giving the diver still more equipment to manage. This is how "Christmas tree" divers are grown. A solution in search of a non-existent problem, more often than not, creates a real problem. Solve problems by preventing them and never use equipment as a substitute for something proper training can cure. Follow the above procedure and you can put the poodle jackets on ebay or sell them at a considerable price to one of the peta persons spying this site.

[dagodiver]

Thanks swimndive,
Thats pretty close to what i do, i went to 40" hoses on my deco
gas so i can run them around the back of my neck they are alot
more clean and comfy this way and you can park them on your
right chest d-ring if need be.
Dago

[bgbill]

Swimndive,

That may be a good method if you always have a buddy with you, most of the time I don't have a buddy with me and I have learned to be self reliant.

The method you described seems like it is a lot more complicated and slower than using a bagged second stage.

I don't see how using a bagged second stage is an attempt to overcome a skill deficiency, and I don't need "someone to watch me" I also don't see how having a bagged second stage makes someone a christmas tree diver.

You may not like this method, which is fine, I happen to like this method and have done it for several years with no problem.

[diligaf]

This is a very interesting thread with a lot of good advice on sharks and gas switches. So I figure I’ll voice my opinion on the subjects…

Let me start with sharks first… this time of year sharks are starting their northward migration up the east coast. Bulls, Reefs, and Hammerheads will be more prevalent the next few months’… divers need to be alert.

In my opinion, Sheri’s advice on lift bagging each fish to the surface is the only way to go. This will eliminate most problems. In my experience, placing fish on a line behind you is the ABSOLUTE WORST thing you can do. Sharks will not have any fear of “hitting” the fish, you’ll be attached to a line with a 1000 lbs. animal on the other end, and you’ll send the shark into a feeding frenzy. Sharks are less likely to hit a fish in a catch bag attached to you… but every once-in-a-while they do. And trust me, you don’t want to be in this position.

Sheri’s deco story is definitely one to learn from. The problem was not so much in the technique, but in the variables (other people) that led up to the near accident. Maybe Sheri will tell us more.

Swimndive… your gas switch advice is very sound and should be followed, especially when doing a “true” tech dive. But most people on the board that are “tech spearfishing” are probably just using one deco mix, diving air or a low % nitrox mix, and in depths of less than 200 FSW.

In this type of diving, having deco bottles on your side creates a danger of getting large fish entangled between your body and the bottle … this is also why you do not want to use your long hose as your primary when spearfishing. Getting a large fish between you and your deco bottle or regulator at depth becomes a life-threatening situation.

I’ve always preferred to keep my deco bottle mounted to my tank(s), run the O2 hose under my arm, and use an O2 “cozies” or bag, and secure my long hose (using as an octo) along the backside of my BC, run the hose over my shoulder, and secure the second stage with a rubber necklace. By securing the O2 second stage with an O2 bag attached with a double-sided clip to a d-ring… it’s not going anywhere. I try to keep everything as streamline as possible.

Please keep in mind this technique is for deep air diving… when multiple gas switches are required and you cannot deco out on your bottom mix, additional measures must be employed.

[Chad Carney]

Ditto what diligaf said, and the tactful, non-condescending way that he said it.

There are many ways to properly dive, and especially while spearfishing. To my knowledge there has never been any text written that begins to cover even a part of the variables encountered in this nitch sport.

Please remember this is a safety section and there are rules that Spearboard set up for this area. It would be good to follow them in all areas of the board.

Chad Carney
TDI/SDI IT 250

PS to bgbill,

Except for that big fat bottle you tote around, you're a pretty streamlined guy underwater! :D

[fishspearit]

"Once the reg has been deployed slightly depress the purge valve and slowly turn on the gas while watching the pressure gauge. You should always pressurize your regs this way to prevent hp seat damage."

I may be wrong, so somebody correct me if I am. Swimndive, I understand where you're coming from, it's good to crack the tank valve slowly to avoid slamming the 1st stage seat. But I don't think it's a good idea to depress the purge valve on a flooded second stage while the first stage is depressurized. This allows saltwater to flow back into the (hopefully) dry 1st stage. Same reason why after a dive when you're rinsing your reg in a dunk tank you should avoid hitting the purge buttom. The "dry bleed" regs get particularly hosed by this. Any other opinions on this? Maybe the momentary saltwater doesn't make much difference.

[HDrider]

This is a great thread, safety should always be first, and one more fish is not going to do you any good if you die getting it! I hope many read this entire thread, as there is much good info here and many things to consider.

Sheri’s advice on lifting all fish is great advice, this takes very little time and you are more streamlined without a stringer plus you have less chance of entanglement without a stringer. Eliminate the reason for a shark to visit and you will be much safer, that nice hog will be much easier to eat if you have a hand to eat it with! My wife being a non-diver tags along on the boat and enjoys hooking the fish with a boat hook off the surface, we jokingly call her the hooker when she is along.

Diligaf also gets a ditto from me on configuration. I have the utmost respect for all advice given by him!

The reading of near accidents hopefully will make us all think the next time we enter the water in this very rewarding sport, and perhaps help in bringing us all back safely.

Chad thanks for noting there are rules for this section…I will look for them and read them.

Tom

[swimndive]

I apologize if I ruffled any feathers with my last post, but I'm pretty passionate about this safety thing. That said, I will probably ruffle a few more with this. It' s inevitable. If you disagree with any of this that's fine, I have no problem with that. I provide this information for those who may not have already made up their minds.

Bret, Accident analysis shows that having a buddy gives you a second chance. In higher risk diving situations, and any insurance agent will tell you that overhead (deco) diving is higher risk, the goal is to reduce risk. Buddy diving gives you an extra set of everything, including a brain. For deep spearfishing an extra set of eyes and hands is also particularly helpful.

As far as gas switches seeming slow, well that's the whole idea. You are doing a decompression dive. You are supposed to take your time ascending to avoid bubble formation. Speedy ascents are a bad thing.

As far as needing someone to watch you, maybe it hasn't happened yet, but when it does you may not be around to tell us about it. It's unfortunate because the tale really needs to be told. Sheck Exley was arguably the best technical diver this world has ever seen. His legacy, is that he died trying to prove your point. I know I'm not as good as Sheck, so I prefer to reduce my risk by diving with a buddy. You can dive however you like, but you can't beat the house when the deck is stacked against you.

Bagged seconds are just the thin end of the wedge. A diver willing to buy a bag to cover a reg, is also likely to buy and carry more gear than he really needs. We've all seen them, the two-legged diving multi-tools that look more like an overdecorated Christmas tree than a diver. It's really a mindset thing. Instant gratification rather than taking the time to do more training. There is only one instructor that can teach this guy…Darwin.

Dilligaf, For deep spearing the fish are sent to the surface immediately. No changes to the standard gear config are necessary. I stopped the deep air thing a long time ago. Let's just say, I lived and learned to just say no, to deep air.

Chad, You are right, there is little written on this subject, but the information is there if you know where to go. I discussed some of this with SpearOne on Friday night and we both agreed that some of this info needs to get out. Looking at some of the responses though, I don't think that this board allows the kind of duplex communication required to teach such practices.

Fishpearit, the reg is pressurized at the surface and then it's turned off. If you bump the purge at some point during the dive, then yes it can back flow. You'll be aware of this because you can see the pressure gauge says zero and no air will come out when you press the purge. If this is the case then you definitely need to have your finger on the purge when you pressurize it. A 1st stage full of water can easily be damaged when you pressurize it without letting the water escape first. If this ever happens, just take all the hoses off when you get home and throw the first stage in a pot of warm fresh water for twenty minutes. Mount it back on a tank w/o hoses and port plugs and open the valve to blow it dry. Re-assemble it and check the ip for any problems.

[kitefisherman]

Scott:

I don't recall any rules for this section. I do recall that you pulled the "high 02" thread for further study and consideration. That was the last that I heard of it other than the later addition of the Spearboard disclaimer. If there are rules, I'd like to know so that I don't unintentionally violate them. (intentional violations are more of a matter of civil disobedience :p ) Did I miss something?

Seriously though, more and more of us are getting tech training to spear at deeper depths so these types of discussions are of particular interest and helpful to many. Besides, if we don't know the rules, how can we argue about them? :D

[Geoff Apthorp]

I think this forum is excellent for readers to draw insights from other diver's experiences reported as "near miss" incidents in the context of their training, knowledge, and capabilities. I don't think this forum is ideal for "teaching" per se - even though we are learning while reading it.

I have benefitted greatly from this type of forum in mission critical safety applications like aerospace, law enforcement, and commercial industry. I know this will work here provided we assume that we the readers have an informed perspective - we're advanced enough to make good judgements on the content.

We all can read the same incident report and everyone who read it will take away different insights. The beauty is that we did not have to experience the incident ourselves to gain the lesson learned. I have learned alot from the discussions just in this thread alone. I thank the participants. The older I get the more humbled I am by the resident and developing expertise out there.
When I started diving our tools of the trade were a dive watch, a submersible pressure and depth guage and a modified innertube called a horsecollar BC. Look where we are now. You guys are great.


Geoff

[Steel Shootin']

John (kite): If you have a question for me, then why not PM me? The warning says everything I have to say on the subject. Not sure what more I can do.

This is a great thread. Let's stay on topic.

[diligaf]

Originally posted by swimndive


Dilligaf, For deep spearing the fish are sent to the surface immediately. No changes to the standard gear config are necessary. I stopped the deep air thing a long time ago. Let's just say, I lived and learned to just say no, to deep air.



Swimndive – Maybe you should reread my post… I think you are addressing it a little out of context. Please note that I’m not advocating deep air past 200 FSW, others may choose to add helium at shallower depths, but I think you’ll agree it should certainly not be greater than 200’. I am simply addressing the real world and how dives are actually being conducted… we’re not diving the “Edmund Fitzgerald”.

You mention that there is no need to deviate from standard gear configurations. How do you address problems associated with spearing large fish at depth? What do you do when a fish gets between you and your deco bottle and rips it right off your BC? What do you do when a large fish gets entangled in your 7’ hose and your left only with your mouthpiece? Or even worse, rips the hose out of the first stage?

Technical diving has come a long ways over the years through trail, error, accidents, and being open to change for different types of dives. Most tech divers are not spearfisherman and not all the techniques and configurations can be applied. Trust me… I’ve been there in many challenging situations.

[kitefisherman]

Scott:

Thanks for the quick answer. I just thought that I'd missed something.

You're right - great thread. I'd like to see more like this.

[Steel Shootin']

My mistake on that one, John. Apology extended.

[Spear One]

If we all agreed on every subject, it could get mighty boring around here. Differing opinions, even some what controversial ones, are what make for interesting reading and participation. A healthy debate can be a great thing!

[swimndive]

Dilligaf, I realize much of this is controversial. It was called "…a little more conservative then I dive…", by Scott when I posted this a year ago.

http://www.spearboard.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=6694#post6694

To answer your questions: I try to deal with most problems by preventing them. I don't wear a BC per se that can tear, I use a harness. The seven foot hose is worn so that lays flat against the body and is protected by the cylinders the wing a pouch or a light. My backup reg can be reached hands free by dropping my chin. I never attach a stringer to any part of my body or my gear. Anything that I do attach, can be immediately removed with a pair of sea snips or a knife (that includes all deco bottles). I recommend avoiding any metal to metal connections when making attachments. Do this by inserting some form of cut / break away connection where needed, cuz you never know. This is also the main reason I elect to always carry the stringer in my hand. On the rare occasion where I have actually needed two stringers, my buddy hand caries the other one. We only carry one gun between us, and the non-shooter acts primarily as the shagger/shark sentry. Big dangerous fish are always free shafted with a powerhead to avoid entanglement and any Co2 issues, then immediately launched via lift bag to the surface. You continue your dive, while the team on the boat deals with the catch. It's really a team effort, so if you are like that guy Leon in the Bud commercial, then your not going to get it. Me…I don't care, but a widowed wife or girlfriend might.

You are right, most technical divers aren't spearos, and I must confess that my days of trophy hunting are well behind me. I only post this info, so that those who have yet to satiate their need to spear something really big and really deep, get a chance to come back and tell us all about it.

[Chad Carney]

I quickly went back and looked for the rules I referred to which Scott penned upon the creation of this category, and could not find them either. I recall it was right after the Carson Young death last fall. Perhaps a more thorough search would have turned up the part I remember most, which went something like this..."No criticism of questions or derogatory tone towards other's posts will be allowed, because in a section where safety is the paramount concern we would not want to stifle anyone's questions because of their concern for appearing stupid."
The diver who needs unbiased advice the most is the one least likely to stick his neck out and ask in a heated environment.

Chad

[diligaf]

Swimndive,

Hmmm… you seem to think I am some sort of “Neanderthal” spearfisherman. That is pretty bold thoughts from someone that never signs their full name and even worse the assumptions you make about people or situations you know little about.

Your reply to my earlier questions fails to answer safety concerns of the technical spearfisherman and brings up other concerns. Let me assure you that no matter how closely you mount your tanks or keep your 7’ hose to your body, if it is in front of you and you spear enough fish, sooner or latter a big grouper, cobia, or AJ, will get between your body and equipment and rip it the hell away from your body!!!

Having deco bottles in front of you also makes loading a powerful speargun more difficult and you must make sure your bands or lines are clear of the bottles. Another hazard!

Diving the buddy system is great with the right person. However the wrong buddy can do way more harm than good. We all must know our limitations and dive within them… but I’ve always believed ultimately we are on our own and if you cannot do the dive solo, then you should not do the dive.

You mention that you and your buddy only bring one gun between you, one shoots while the other watches as a shark sentry. What good is a shark sentry with no gun???

You mention you powerhead… what about safety concerns? What if you are diving in state waters? And what the hell sport is it to powerhead?

You mention you carry a stringer in your hand… this is great… the shark now eats your hand too! Why not follow Sheri’s advice just carry a sausage with an over inflator valve and a brass clip to attach to the fish? One less thing to go wrong… not to mention it’s a little easier to shoot a speargun accurately with two hands.

You mention in your other post about 30/30 O2/He mix for 130', with only scooters,doubles, and powerheads. Let's talk reality... 99.99% of divers use a 30-32% nitrox mix for 130', most don't powerhead, most don't dive doubles, and most don't use scooters. But yet you think an O2 cover is task-overloading???

You mention you only care about safety… but you are offering what I consider poor and dangerous advice. Technical spearfishing is NOT the same as technical diving… I hope that anyone wanting to learn tech spearfishing seeks out a qualified instructor with a lot of big fish experience!

Safe Diving,

Dave Earp

[Reaperspear]

Swimndive,

I think some clarification is needed in your using Sheck Exley as an example to support your claims. Exley died trying to reach 1000 ft. in the Zacatan cave system. Exley reached 906 ft., Jim Bowden who by the way made this dive with Exley reached 925 ft. This dive was done to break a record not to promote solo diving. To say that he died trying to promote solo diving is an insult to the man and what he did for the sport of diving.

[Steel Shootin']

Swimndive,

I am always interested about a DIR approach to spearfishing (although, almost by definition one cannot truly be DIR if shooting fish). I have adopted some of the DIR stuff that you reference, because I think it works very well with the technical aspects of shooting fish.

For example, I wear a backplate and wing. I find it works well for me. I also bungee my back-up reg to my neck, although I have not perfected the task of grabbing it with a single head movement. I do like having it right there.

However, I do not use the DIR 7' hose. My understanding is that is more for penetration and cave diving, where you may have to pass it to a buddy who is several feet from you on the otherside of the cave opening. I know an argument could be made that for sharing air a longer hose would make the ascent easier, but I don't want that much hose coming off of me personally.

In any event, this is where the warning comes in. Spearboard, at times, requires the user to make his or her own judgments. There are several ways of doing things, and, IMO, the only constant is that if you are going to try out radically new ways of doing things, do so with competent instruction. For example, don't go down and start shooting airbags to the surface without getting instruction. Otherwise, you may beat the bag to the surface.

Like Chad said, the main rule here is to never talk down to someone in this section. I'd like to see safety dicussed in a positive manner. That's not to say you can't strongly disagree. Safety issues will probably draw more debate than most other topics..

[swimndive]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by diligaf
Swimndive,

Hmmm… you seem to think I am some sort of “Neanderthal” spearfisherman. That is pretty bold thoughts from someone that never signs their full name and even worse the assumptions you make about people or situations you know little about.[/QUOTE

Dilligaf, I don't believe I ever said any thing about anybody being a Neanderthal. Those are your words, not mine, but since you want to bring it up I feel compelled to ask, what is it about this sentence that you do not understand? "Big dangerous fish are always free shafted with a powerhead to avoid entanglement and any Co2 issues, then immediately launched via lift bag to the surface. " While you're at it you may as well do this one too: "Hip clip deco bottles by the nose to keep them out of the way."

Your reply to my earlier questions fails to answer safety concerns of the technical spearfisherman and brings up other concerns.[/QUOTE

Really which question do you think I did not answer? I'll be glad to try one more time. But read on ,because I'm going to do this one line by line first.

Let me assure you that no matter how closely you mount your tanks or keep your 7’ hose to your body, if it is in front of you and you spear enough fish, sooner or latter a big grouper, cobia, or AJ, will get between your body and equipment and rip it the hell away from your body!!![/QUOTE

Having deco bottles in front of you also makes loading a powerful speargun more difficult and you must make sure your bands or lines are clear of the bottles. Another hazard![/QUOTE

I don't use a powerful speargun. I use a single 23" x 5/8 band and a 5/16" freeshaft. Once again there is nothing to rip away. I use a very streamlined cave diving configuration. It allows me to crawl on my belly through small passages without getting hung up or snagging a thing because ther is nothing to hang up or snag. I have nothing at all on my chest and I'll say this for the third time. Bottles are hip clipped by the nose to keep them out of the way.

Diving the buddy system is great with the right person. However the wrong buddy can do way more harm than good. We all must know our limitations and dive within them… but I’ve always believed ultimately we are on our own and if you cannot do the dive solo, then you should not do the dive.[/QUOTE

That's an incredibly self-centered and arrogant statement. No wonder you have a problem with the buddy system.
Read this again:
In higher risk diving situations, and any insurance agent will tell you that overhead (deco) diving is higher risk, the goal is to reduce risk.

Any idiot can dive solo, and many do, it's not at all difficult. What is difficult however, is to learn to dive with a buddy. The thing that makes it such a challenge is that both divers must be willing to abandon the mindset that I am the most important thing in the diving universe. In the diver's estimation no one else can possibly have the level of discipline or competence to contribute at least an equal share of expertise to a team so it's deemed to be not worth it. In most cases said diver imposes a higher standard on the buddy than he is willing to impose upon himself. This is ludicrous. Spare me the standard answers, I used to teach people this crap in the 70's. I was wrong then, and I've long since admitted it. Somehow I managed to learn from my mistakes, but I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others. I think that's the idea behind this whole thread isn't it?

You mention that you and your buddy only bring one gun between you, one shoots while the other watches as a shark sentry. What good is a shark sentry with no gun???[/QUOTE

The shagger's job is to watch for sharks during the stalk and the shot. Once the fish is hit, the roles reverse. The shagger then handles the fish and the liftbag while the shooter watches for problems.

You mention you powerhead… what about safety concerns? What if you are diving in state waters? And what the hell sport is it to powerhead?[/QUOTE

State waters over here mean you are in 40 to 45 feet. Firearm safety is always a concern and probably another good topic to debate. Who said anything about sport? If I was interested in sport, I wouldn't be breathing off of a scuba tank. It's not even close to sport. That's exactly why I no longer choose to do it. It's another one of my mistakes that I managed to learn from. Fortunately for me there are many other aspects of diving that keep the juices flowing. Given the current limits, most of my dives would be over in three minutes if I couldn't find something else to do besides spear fish. I mean two groupers and the gun has to stay in the boat. Thank God for wrecks and caves.

You mention you carry a stringer in your hand… this is great… the shark now eats your hand too! Why not follow Sheri’s advice just carry a sausage with an over inflator valve and a brass clip to attach to the fish? One less thing to go wrong… not to mention it’s a little easier to shoot a speargun accurately with two hands.
[/QUOTE

See above. You questions are becoming tedious especially the ones I need to answer three times. Do I really need to explain to you hown to drop a stringer? It's as easy to shoot holding a stringer as it is holding a light, or to walk and chew gum for that matter. Practice, as always will improve your results.

You mention in your other post about 30/30 O2/He mix for 130', with only scooters,doubles, and powerheads. Let's talk reality... 99.99% of divers use a 30-32% nitrox mix for 130', most don't powerhead, most don't dive doubles, and most don't use scooters. [/QUOTE

The reality is that many of the people attempting to do the riskier dives are doing so without the proper training or proper equipment. This is exactly what needs to be changed. To paraphrase Einstein here, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over with the expectation of different results. We need to stop the insanity. Doing what 99.99% of divers do will never accomplish that. We need to think outside the box.

But yet you think an O2 cover is task-overloading???[/QUOTE

No, I never once mentioned "task-overloading". I said bags on deco regs are an attempt overcome a skill deficiency with piece of unnecessary equipment. Short cuts in training is the real issue. Proper training makes the bags obsolete.

You mention you only care about safety… but you are offering what I consider poor and dangerous advice. [/QUOTE

This is hilarious. Scott called my advice too conservative and you think it's poor and dangerous. Both statements can not possibly be true. Well you can think whatever you want about my advice, but if you are going to call me out and say it's dangerous, I'm going to ask you to see your evidence. I've answered all of your questions and addressed all of your hypothetical scenarios. Now it's your turn. Tell me how you do it. Never mind. I really don't need to hear it. I'll just review the accident files.

Technical spearfishing is NOT the same as technical diving… [/QUOTE

No really?

I hope that anyone wanting to learn tech spearfishing seeks out a qualified instructor with a lot of big fish experience! [/QUOTE

And where pray tell, might we find such a qualified instructor with a lot of big fish experience?
Are you volunteering? I too want people to stop dying doing stupid shit. If you think you have a solution I would really like to hear it. I think it's time to stop the insanity though and try something different.

Now I've answered all of your questions, many of them twice. It's apparent that you have a problem with me or perhaps my answers and that is not likely to change. I have been civil and I haven't called you any names, in spite of having been accused of doing so. My comments were primarily aimed at the people who are in the information gathering phase and have yet to make up their minds on a lot of this stuff. You obviously are not one of them. You and I are always going to disagree on this. Rest assured that you are not alone here with your views, as I apparently am. I believe that until that changes, the insanity will no doubt continue. I only wish Carson Young had been around when some of this poor and dangerous info was presented. Had he followed it, they wouldn't be discussing his memorial plaque in another thread.

BrokenSpear,
We are going to disagree on Sheck's demise. Bowden was in the same body of water, and at the same time, but neither one ever said that they were diving as a team. They were both solo and went to great lengths to keep it that way. As you know, there were two seperate descent lines and neither diver was ever in contact with the other. If that qualifies as buddy diving in your book, that might explain our differences. I'm more impressed by what Sheck did in Chip's hole than any of his other dives. He was a fantastic diver. He was no doubt the best that has ever been. The tragedy is that Sheck knew how to be a good buddy and he accomplished great feats diving with others. Being a math teacher he no doubt understood, that in team diving one and one make three (Sheck might have accounted for 1.75). On that day in Zacaton, 1.75 was still not enough.

[fernandezh]

Originally posted by Geoff Apthorp
I've "floated" my catch, with sharks and no sharks in the area. Your idea of a 15' lanyard seems good - keeping the catch close but not on top of you.


http://www.spearboard.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3030&highlight=safety+stop


See the attached thread, I use this type of lift bag for my safety stops, before leaving the bottom on deep dives, I attach my stringer to the lift bag to keep some distance between me and my fish. It also helps preventing an uncontrolled ascent because of fish. They sell these things on Ebay for under $25

Hector

[Reaperspear]

Thats true they were not truly a buddy team. But my point was that he didn't die trying to prove that solo diving was the way to dive. These men dove solo because in truth there was no one capable of diving with them and as I said this was a depth record attempt.

[diligaf]

Swimndive,

Everything in diving ultimately becomes a matter of risk vs. reward. Our gear configurations, gas mixes, equipment, dive buddies, lift bagging fish, etc. all have there plus’s & minus’s. Each individual diver must weigh the facts and conditions to decide which is right for him or her. The answers will vary with individuals… but we should do what is comfortable for us and correct for our situations.

Whether you intend to or not… you often come across as “looking down your nose” at other people. I do not say this to be derogator… only as my opinion for you to consider in your future post. People will be much more responsive when treated with respect.

Again, not trying to be derogator, but you have admitted you no longer spearfish and judging by your post, you have limited spearfishing experience. You are trying to apply cave diving or overhead environment conditions to the open ocean. While much of this is good and commendable… it’s often not practical. Doubles, 7’hoses, scooters, helium, are not necessary for open water dives to 130’. The extra gear can actually cause a safety burden such as getting off and on a boat with doubles in rough seas… what are the chances of falling? Or scooters should only be used by experienced divers for hunting… again they create another set of hazards that must be weighed against the benefits? Or helium mixes for 100’ open water dives… what about the added deco risk and need for deco gases in a depth that few have a narcosis problem? Or is a 7’ hose even necessary for no or limited decompression?

A diver should not be judged on how deep they dive or how big of a fish they spear… but whether on judgment and awareness. By making the right choices and being aware of your environment… you can enjoy the sport in a safe as possible manner.

Often the first choice a diver makes is their instructor and this is often the most difficult. I was fortunate enough to learn from the best, Tom Mount. When choosing an instructor, you should ask a lot of questions and find someone experienced in the type of diving you intend to do. For example, if my intentions were to hunt “The Elbow” safely… I would find an instructor with local knowledge and a proven track record, such as Chad Carney. But, if I were looking to do over-head environment dives… I would look for someone with a proven track record for that type of diving in my area.

Over the years I’ve made 7,000+ dives, most of them hunting, and most decompression dives. Not to sound arrogant… but most people that I’ve dove with respect me and consider me very safety orientated. This is not to say that I still am not learning and open to changing my ways… because we can learn from everyone and that is what makes us better divers!


Dave Earp

[Geoff Apthorp]

Hector -

That's exactly the low cost lift bag deal I've been looking for. I'm going to adopt a hybrid of Sheri's approach with the info from one of guys from your hyperlinked thread for 1) floating fish, 2) signalling the boat and 3) safety stopping.

I very much ike the idea of color differentiated lift bags - green is fish - big 6 foot sausage is "get the heck over here."

I have used the reel on my old gun attached to my lift bag for safety stops - to actually sit on the gun in calm seas - like the old T-bars at the 70s vintage ski lifts.

One thing I did not mention before in the lessons learned from my near miss, is that I always drop a hang bottle from the boat for the divers in the water. 10- 15 feet - 80%. However, based on swmindive's explanation to me of O2 window, I may make that 100% mix.

Swimnndive and Diligaf - I hope you guys remain friendly - It's obvious to us readers that you two guys are among the most experienced and knowledgeable people contributing here. I am amazed at the depth of your expertise. It is very valuable to us to contrast the different approaches between you two and vis a vis our own approaches.

I have taken valuable insights from each of your methods shared on this thread. I am not sure there is any truly "right or wrong" method because everybody's different diving scenarios are compounded by differing personal styles, preferences, capabilities, and methods . Your excellent inputs here that I am "cherry picking" to augment my approach may save my life or that of my buddy someday. I hope that I have the privelege someday of diving with you both. Thanks for your thoughts. keep em coming.

Any more near misses we can review?

Warm regards, Geoff:)

[kitefisherman]

While you guys are on the topic of lift bagging fish up, I wanted to show you the lift bags that I am now using. They are a 44" x 7" custom 25 lb. Carter lift bag that my friend Bruce sells. As you can see, they are orally inflated (one good breath) and have an overpressure/dump valve that prevents the bag from bursting if the bag is sent from depth. Once the bag is inflated, the air cannot escape except through the dump valve so there is no chance that the bag will fall over and leak air at the surface. The dump valve also allows you to add more air to the bag at depth (to get more lift) than you can do with the safety sausages which I also use - this will give you more peace of mind when sending up a big fish that might "reawaken" after you let loose of the bag. All you need to add is a brass clip on the loop at the top of the bag; I use a #3.

In the event that your BC bladder gets punctured and you don't have a redundant bladder or wing, 1 or 2 of these bags can be sent up your flag line or on a reel to give you a line that you can pull yourself up on at a controlled rate.

The best part is that these bags retail for only $34.95 which is considerably less than most other lift bags that I've seen. They are only available through Bruce's website: http://www.sevenanchors.com/. The website hasn't been updated for the bags yet, but you can send him an email at sevenanchors@yahoo.com.

[HDrider]

Swimndive

Your last post leads me to believe you have a vendetta toward Diligaf. Your lack of stating your full name leads me to believe that your information at best should be looked at as lacking in the experience needed to give such information. How is anyone to know what experience you have to back up the information you are giving?

Diligaf on the other hand has given sound advice with good reason behind it. Most people reading this area are like me. They dream of shooting a very large fish and realize that this is in all likelihood going to be on the dangerous side. One shot killing of a large fish happens, but it cannot be the rule! We are here looking for advice from people that have experience in safely shooting and handling big fish. People that have been dragged through the ringer so to speak and are willing to share there vast knowledge of experience with ALL ASPECTS of safety in mind.

When someone has a mousetrap that works better then I say use it, even if it means discarding the one that you are very fond of yourself, especially if it will save your arm by not carrying a stringer or putting a stage on your back tank to keep a fish from getting between you and the tank and ripping you to the surface, or putting your 2nd stage in a different location so your life giving air is not ripped from your reg.

Hearing this advice from Diligaf tells me it is experience, that is what I want to hear.

Tom Bieri

[diligaf]

Originally posted by brokenspear
Thats true they were not truly a buddy team. But my point was that he didn't die trying to prove that solo diving was the way to dive. These men dove solo because in truth there was no one capable of diving with them and as I said this was a depth record attempt.

Several months ago Swimndive & myself had a discussion on a related topic... let's just say explorors and pioneers are often misunderstood by those who are not. Here's the link -

http://www.spearboard.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5405&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

[Geoff Apthorp]

Most of us who are a bit "longer in the tooth" around unforgiving environments (like diving) have had one or more sobering exposures to our own and other people's mistakes. We can call em "near misses" but sometimes the outcomes are debilitating or even fatal.

Seeing blunt trauma up close, or a bent diver or worse, or locating the remains of the same creates truly haunting memories. The only Rx for that legacy is doing all we can to help others and ourselves going forward. This is a superb forum to do that.

Accordingly, I am all ears when others have constructive suggestions on processes, methods, equipment, and training. I thought I was pretty knowledgeable having been on scuba for almost 25 years now. The older I get the more I realize how little I know. So, I'm old but not bold. What say we "check our egos at the door" and openly and actively listen, learn, and contribute.

Who's got another near miss to talk about?
:cool:

[Ed Walker]

Quote of the week

Originally posted by Geoff Apthorp
What say we "check our egos at the door" and openly and actively listen, learn, and contribute.
:cool:

Amen brother.
All the talk about gas dangers, deco, redundant gear, pony bottles, sending fish up from depth, ect....serves as a reminder of why I took up freediving.

[esmiami]

Here's what I use on dives under 150ft. It's a Carter bag with a CO2 cartridge inflator on it. Available direct from Carter as a stock item. You can also inflate it manually. I only use the CO2 inflator when I need to get rid of fish FAST (only a few times) but always send them up at the end of a dive. I clip it off to my left shoulder D-rind and use a snap shackle instead of a bolt snap. If something grabs my stringer, I just pull the lanyard and the snap shackles will release, even under load. I also keep a kill knife tied to it, just where I need it. I know, kind of expensive if I lose it.

At some point I'm going to hook the CO2 inflator into the shackle release, just haven't gotten around to doing it yet. That way, if a shark grabs my stringer, he'll have to fight the lift-bag to keep the fish. It'll also help separate me from the shark and maybe get me back me stringer after he's done with the fish.

I've also been thinking about using big tie-wraps (handcuff size)and big party balloons to send individual fish to the surface. Kill the fish, string a tie-wrap through his gill leaving a large loop for the boat to grab, put a little air in the balloon, tie it to the tie-wrap and off it goes. Haven't tried it yet but it might work, only problem I can think of is the fish bursting the balloon. One time use but awfully cheap.

On deeper stuff I use my Fish Stopper system.

[esmiami]

Here's another photo.

[swimndive]

Geoff,
I have a folder full of them. In addition there is a forum on yahoo that discusses current cases. Sheck Exley developed something called accident analysis which morphed into the modern day training standards for technical and cave divers. I like to apply Sheck's methodology to all new cases just to see if there is anything new that was missed.

Hdrider, I have no vendetta against dilligaf, or anyone else who disagrees with me on these issues. Even my friend SpearOne and I disagree on the buddy thing. My posts to Dilligaf were all of a responsive nature and hardly a vendetta. Rest assured neither he nor I are going to worry about it too much. What else would you expect from a guy who uses the handle Do I Look Like I Give A Firetruck? We are all not going to agree on many of these things when we have these types of discussions. However, I do feel confident that anyone willing to give some of this a test drive will see things in a different light. I realize that's not likely to happen around here, but I decided that I didn't want that to stop me from putting the info out there. Evaluate it and decide for yourself. For some reason everyone seems to be more focused on the messenger than the message. I personally think that good information can stand on it's own, but that is apparently not so here. My name is ed and if you want to know any more about me, you can pm me. If you are interested in getting advanced training, be it scuba or freediving, I recommend you look here: http://gue.com/

[Steel Shootin']

I like the thought behind that system. I started a thread a while ago about shooting fish to the surface. I can't see myself shooting every fish, but I like the idea of sending my stringer on it's way at the end of a dive.

My only observation is that I would be reluctant to clip the thing to me with that C02 cart. I think I would carry it.

I noticed that Riffe makes a similar set-up, complete with C02.

Scott

[Geoff Apthorp]

ESMiami -

Killer looking lift kit! What is your "fish stopping system" for deeper stuff?

Geoff

[esmiami]

Originally posted by Scott
I like the thought behind that system. I started a thread a while ago about shooting fish to the surface. I can't see myself shooting every fish, but I like the idea of sending my stringer on it's way at the end of a dive.

My only observation is that I would be reluctant to clip the thing to me with that C02 cart. I think I would carry it.

I noticed that Riffe makes a similar set-up, complete with C02.

Scott

Over here we've been seeing a bunch of Bulls lately, for me, when there's a Bull in the water, spearfishing is over for that dive and one bag is enough. Nailing a big fish after 3 minutes of bottom time would be when I might want to send up a fish before I'm done spearing. I've had long shallow dives where a big bleeding Cobia and I are on a first name basis by the time we hit the surface. I'll probably try the Balloon thing sometime in the future to see how it works, it sure ain't gonna cost much.

One of the other reasons I use a snap shackle is so I can get away from the bag if it happens to inflate by itself. It's pretty unlikely that it'll happen but one pull of the lanyard and it's disconnected. I also use cave line to tie the shackle to my stringer so it can be quickly cut loose if the shackle fails.

The Riffe bag is nice but is a lot more expensive and has less lift than the Carter. The Carter bag is something like $50. Also, the Carter is a bright yellow/green. We use red/orange bags to mark divers (the boat should stay a distance away) and yellow/green bags to mark something we want picked up right away by the boat like fish, an anchor, found weightbelt, a bag of gold, empty stage, a note that we need some deco gas, etc.

One of the other things that's nice about sending up a bag is that it (1) lets the boat know where the divers are (2) lets them know the dive is almost over (3) gets the fish into the boat before the divers so that by the time the divers surface, the fish are on ice and the divers don't have to climb over a bunch of dead fish to get in the boat. It also makes getting out of the water a lot faster as the divers don't have to pass up any fish. I sometimes send up my gun and/or lobsters up with the fish too.

[esmiami]

Originally posted by Geoff Apthorp
ESMiami -

Killer looking lift kit! What is your "fish stopping system" for deeper stuff?

Geoff

It's a parachute shaped liftbag I designed that fits into a tube that's mounted on the side of the gun with a release at the back end of the tube. Shoot a fish that's too big to handle, pull a knob and the bag deploys, inflates, slows the fish down and sends him to the surface. If anybody on the South East Coast of Florida wants to try one on a deep dive, let me know and I'll set one up for you to try. They fit on Riffe and Wong guns with no modifications or holes to drill in the gun. You don't even have to change the shooting line.

Here's what they looks like.

[kitefisherman]

Does the shooting line detatch from the gun or does the gun go up too?

[cbulla]

Aside from what appears to be some misunderstandings, this is a killer thread! Thank you everyone for sharing this information and please don't stop!

[esmiami]

Originally posted by kitefisherman
Does the shooting line detatch from the gun or does the gun go up too?

It disconnects and then the bag inflates, but only if you pull the ripcord. If you don't pul the ripcord, it's just like a regular gun, you can reload it and keep shooting fish until one is too big to handle. It's a little clunky for every day reef shooting so I only take it on deep stuff.

[esmiami]

Originally posted by HDrider
Swimndive

Your last post leads me to believe you have a vendetta toward Diligaf. Your lack of stating your full name leads me to believe that your information at best should be looked at as lacking in the experience needed to give such information. How is anyone to know what experience you have to back up the information you are giving?

Diligaf on the other hand has given sound advice with good reason behind it. Most people reading this area are like me. They dream of shooting a very large fish and realize that this is in all likelihood going to be on the dangerous side. One shot killing of a large fish happens, but it cannot be the rule! We are here looking for advice from people that have experience in safely shooting and handling big fish. People that have been dragged through the ringer so to speak and are willing to share there vast knowledge of experience with ALL ASPECTS of safety in mind.

When someone has a mousetrap that works better then I say use it, even if it means discarding the one that you are very fond of yourself, especially if it will save your arm by not carrying a stringer or putting a stage on your back tank to keep a fish from getting between you and the tank and ripping you to the surface, or putting your 2nd stage in a different location so your life giving air is not ripped from your reg.

Hearing this advice from Diligaf tells me it is experience, that is what I want to hear.

Tom Bieri


I know Ed personally and Dave through e-mail, some phone calls and from his local reputation. Both of these guys are the real deal.

[dagodiver]

Hey Swimndive,
I't took you longer that i thought to post
the WKPP GUE stuff, both of witch are great
organization and instructions but they are against
spearfishing because the gear config doesn't fit.
Yes I do dive a 7' hose and a single one piece webbed
Hog rig and my HID is on my left hand and i do dive
V-planner VPM-B on +2 conserv. and so on, but this
is not realistic for "deep" spearfishing period, i have found
the people here on this forum to be more open minded
and after spearfishing with some of them very safety minded
also. This said spearfishing brings a whole new realm of
safety or danger depends how you look at it, to the diving
at hand. This must be learned on a trial basis because you nor
i know what is going to happen when you shoot a whatever
fish with a spaergun.
just my .02 worth
Dago.
No i did not drink the kool-aid but im working on it...
:) :)

[diligaf]

Dago… that’s well said.

I hope no one thinks there is anything personal with swimndive… we are all entitled to our beliefs and opinions. The way I see swimndive’s/DIR’s position is that they believe radical changes are needed from the training agencies to the equipment, methods, gases, gear configurations, and believe a uniform standard should be applied to all types of diving. This is versus my position that believes while improvements can be made… the existing framework for recreational diving is a good and practical working model with a remarkable safety record.

The techniques for different types of diving or diving in different environments will and often should vary. A good example of this is east vs. west coast diving. On the east coast, drift diving is usually the preferred method, letting the Gulfstream currents doing much of the work drifting the diver along our north/south running reef systems. On the gulf coast, divers often jug a spot and do a series of bounce dives. In other words… we are doing what is right for our environment and the techniques that have developed in our area over the years. In the macro environment… there could be no right or wrong answer applied to the micro environment.

I also believe that the instructor is more important than the training agency. The criteria does not drastically vary… but the quality of instructor often does.

BTW – esmiami – What happened to JC? I always enjoyed his post.

[swimndive]

Dago, That's a common misconception. Equipment plays a minor role in the DIR system. The configuration is kept streamlined and Spartan. Take spearguns for example. Spearguns are not needed in caves so they are left behind. Cave lights are not needed in open water, so they are left behind. The important thing to understand about DIR is the logic behind the system. If you don't need it, you don't bring it. You don't have to dive a longhose in open water if you don't want to. I prefer to, because I find that it is actually more streamlined than a standard hose.

I never have to worry about what happens when I shoot a fish because I freeshaft using Kevin's system and I have a buddy. That means I carry an extra shaft, an extra brain, as well as an extra set of eyes and hands and plenty of gas on every dive. The DIR philosophy seeks to solve problems by preventing them. It adapts quite easily to spear fishing.

Dilligaf, I think you might find that we agree on more than we disagree. As a friend of mine once said, "diving is incredibly easy, right up to the dying part". The uniform standard that you refer to is more along the lines of a logic loop. I could really care less what kind of equipment anybody uses, as long as they "get it". People who "get it" tend not to become statistics.

[Stone]

Storm clouds were gathering on the coast about 3 miles away (Destin, FL), but we figured we had time for one more dive. The wind had died, and the anchor chain was just laying in a pile on the bottom (about 80 ft). I set the anchor by hand and we made a circuit around a 100 ft barge. When I got back to the anchor, the line had shifted 180 degrees and was hung up on a barge cleat (obviously, we dropped anchor in the middle of a wind shift). We called the dive, but my wife had found a bed of flounder, and was happily using her spear shaft as a pokey pole. My third buddy went to retrieve my wife about the same time the anchor started up the side of the barge. I held the anchor chain on the barge cleat until my buddies showed up. I knew the weather was threatening, and should have tied the anchor off to the barge. If the wind would have shifted 90 degrees instead of 180 degrees, we might have been following a furrow in the sand to find the boat.

[diligaf]

Originally posted by swimndive


Dilligaf, I think you might find that we agree on more than we disagree. As a friend of mine once said, "diving is incredibly easy, right up to the dying part". The uniform standard that you refer to is more along the lines of a logic loop. I could really care less what kind of equipment anybody uses, as long as they "get it". People who "get it" tend not to become statistics.

I think we can agree on that or in the words of Spear One "Roger".:)

[Spearchucker]

Wow Chad, tell us what you think!

[Geoff Apthorp]

Stone:

I've struggled with the dilemma of whether or not to anchor and leave the boat unattended. Your story is a scary possibility - my worst nightmare maybe. Thanks for posting it. - excellent recap!

Several times when I've anchored we've been moved alot underwater by currents and, upon resurfacing, had a pretty long surface swim back to the boat, and then we had to pull up the ground tackle after all of the above. Strenuous activities that might contribute to DCS?

We've therefore decided that we're not diving unless we have a minimum of 4 divers, for "2 up and 2 down". We're now jugging our spot , drop 2 divers and drift over the bubbles until they're back on the boat. Then we drop the other 2 divers. This helps keep other boats off the divers too. On that score, we're defaulting to dive less popular spots, as well, to minimize traffic.

Anyhow, we're adopting Sheri's (and other divers' here) methods /recommendations to float our fish from now on. So, we have to have the chase/drift boat for pickup of the fish and divers.
I really believe this is the safest method for the diving we do.

I'm really glad nothing bad happened on your near miss. And I thank you again for posting.

Best Regards,

:cool:

[Chad Carney]

I know most of the divers that have posted on this thread to be good, safe divers with above average spearfishing skills. Most of them have already taken extended training for their 130' to 200' diving and have extensive experience in those depths while spearfishing good sized fish. I've had the pleasure to dive with Dave, Sheri, Bret, Mike(Dago), Scott, John, Hector & Geoff.

Watching Dave and Sheri spearing and lobstering is like viewing a performance by an Academy Award winning leading actor and actress! Their teamwork is awesome, yet they are independently strong. They are both trimix trained and their experience includes thousands of deep spearfishing dives where they have innovated techniques to make the sport safer and more effective.

Dave is like an aircraft carrier on drift dives in Pompano and the other divers are a flotilla of ships around him. Sheri and I have been fighter jets flanking far out to either side bolting out after straying fish then returning to Dave as he leads us all from wreck to wreck and reef to reef. He probably has more spearfishing dives under his BC than anyone on Spearboard.

Below is a pic of Sherri with her "fish floats" in place. I video taped the process, it works like a charm.

Chad Carney

[HDrider]

Originally posted by Chad Carney


Watching Dave and Sheri spearing and lobstering is like viewing a performance by an Academy Award winning leading actor and actress! Their teamwork is awesome, yet they are independently strong. They are both trimix trained and their experience includes thousands of deep spearfishing dives where they have innovated techniques to make the sport safer and more effective.

Dave is like an aircraft carrier on drift dives in Pompano and the other divers are a flotilla of ships around him. Sheri and I have been fighter jets flanking far out to either side bolting out after straying fish then returning to Dave as he leads us all from wreck to wreck and reef to reef. He probably has more spearfishing dives under his BC than anyone on Spearboard.



Very well put! I cannot think of a better way to explain the way these two work in the water. It is like they have radar, they cover a reef methodically as the bounce from wreck to wreck; it truly is amazing to be witness to their skill at hunting and the way they handle fish, well they just make it look so easy, like child’s play.

Tom

[esmiami]

Originally posted by diligaf

Snip

BTW – esmiami – What happened to JC? I always enjoyed his post. [/B]

JC is around, guess he's feeling quiet lately. He did the Hydro with us on Sunday, he nailed a log of a Wahoo on his 20ft stop but unfortunately, it pulled off his spear before he could string it.

You still want to try one of my Fish Stoppers?

[dagodiver]

Originally posted by Spearchucker
Wow Chad, tell us what you think!

Hey some of us have to work, what did i miss..???

When i booked with Capt. Chad the thing he was worried about
most was the safety issue, after politly explaining the situation
to a bullheaded Dago i happily went out and did what he said
to do. Thanks again Chad.
Dago

[Geoff Apthorp]

We'd love to try one of your fish stoppers over here on the Gulf side. I'll PM you to talk about buying one. Maybe you can come up to dive with us and demo that killer design.

Geoff

[Geoff Apthorp]

How did the sharks approach you and where did you hit em with the power head? Was that two sharks on one dive?

Geoff

[Geoff Apthorp]

Glad you picked up the movement in the distance and it worked out OK and you're here to tell us about it!

[Chad Carney]

Dago,

The Dive Alert air horn, that I recommended you get before your trip, is one of the all time best safety innovations.

The device has saved a lot of diver's lives and shortened much misery for countless more.

Thanks Dave Hancock, the inventor, of Ideations Design Inc.
See www.divealert.com
Available in dive stores everywhere.

Chad

[Screen Name]

Originally posted by Chad Carney
Dago,

The Dive Alert air horn, that I recommended you get before your trip, is one of the all time best safety innovations.

The device has saved a lot of diver's lives and shortened much misery for countless more.

Thanks Dave Hancock, the inventor, of Ideations Design Inc.
See www.divealert.com
Available in dive stores everywhere.

Chad

Let me add this: In addition to Dive Alert, I will never intentionally dive offshore without my red sausage. It is also smart to tuck a bright dive flag into your gear and just leave it for a rainy day. It works great on the end of your speargun. You can see the red from a much greater distance than you can hear the whistle.

[Teufel-Hundin]

Quote from Swimndive----

"State waters over here mean you are in 40 to 45 feet. Firearm safety is always a concern and probably another good topic to debate. Who said anything about sport? If I was interested in sport, I wouldn't be breathing off of a scuba tank. It's not even close to sport. That's exactly why I no longer choose to do it. It's another one of my mistakes that I managed to learn from. Fortunately for me there are many other aspects of diving that keep the juices flowing. Given the current limits, most of my dives would be over in three minutes if I couldn't find something else to do besides spear fish. I mean two groupers and the gun has to stay in the boat. Thank God for wrecks and caves."

I am kinda pissed... Apparently spearing a large fish with a line attatched to it and wrestling it to death is not "Sport".
I repeat I AM PISSED!! Who the heck are you to say that Spearfishing on scuba is not a sport?
If you get so bored with spearing and scuba is not a sport why are you still doing it and whining on this thread?
Maby you should find a Freediving only thread and stick to it.

[ExFrog]

Good job on the info...L/L especially! We've all gotten away with stupid shit a couple of times... but straight up, realized it wasn't worth the cost in the end.

Dead Checks!