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View Full Version : New Slip-tip, Paralyzer


azspearo
10-07-2008, 02:07 AM
I have a new slip-tip and paralyzer coming out. Just going through some final testing.
http://cristspears.com/prototypes

njspearo
10-07-2008, 10:07 AM
nice stuff man!

Seacidal
10-07-2008, 11:04 AM
Looking good! It's great to see people working on new ideas for gear. Thanks for the update.

jfjf
10-07-2008, 11:27 AM
If you want any help testing the paralyzer tip, just let me know. I've not found a paralyzer tip that I can not bend or destroy after only a few big fish.

seacrecher
10-07-2008, 02:26 PM
Just an observation, but it seems that the flopper needs to be a bit longer on the slip-tip. The way I see it, the tail end of the tip would still be inside the fish and the flopper does not appear that it would be enough to keep the entire tip from coming back through if enough force were applied.

By having the flopper longer than the tail end of the tip, the entire tip would have passed through the body of the fish before being toggled.

mnguy
10-07-2008, 07:00 PM
Just an observation, but it seems that the flopper needs to be a bit longer on the slip-tip. The way I see it, the tail end of the tip would still be inside the fish and the flopper does not appear that it would be enough to keep the entire tip from coming back through if enough force were applied.

By having the flopper longer than the tail end of the tip, the entire tip would have passed through the body of the fish before being toggled.

I agree. That, or you could put the flopper's rivet point back farther on the head so that it is just barely in front of the rim of the adapter when set.

Also, Aaron, what is the offset between the prongs at the end and what width are they? I've been looking for prongs for an idea of mine for awhile but I can't find them, other than the mustad ones that I can't seem to find a supplier for.

azspearo
10-07-2008, 08:47 PM
I know what you mean about bent tines. Testing so far has showed the tines are holding up on the 12" tip. The 18" tip was sent off today to be tested and evaluated for performance. 18" tines to my knowledge may be a first for a paralyzer tip.
I think the 18" tines won't hold up to any abnormal abuse but thought I'd give it a try.
I have lots of "give it a try" projects that didn't perform and this may be one of those.
The tines are in 17-4 SS that where H900 hardened, same as most reputable spear shafts, not counting the spring steel shafts that are on the market. Those shafts are tougher and stronger then 17-4 and this is why I'll be making the tines out of spring steel as well.




If you want any help testing the paralyzer tip, just let me know. I've not found a paralyzer tip that I can not bend or destroy after only a few big fish.

jfjf
10-07-2008, 09:06 PM
I really wish someone would make a SHORTER 3-prong pole spear tip. I sometimes spear 30 lb free swimming fish (like amberjack) with a 3-prong and I usually have to bring out the pliers to try to bend it back into shape.

I assume the longer tines will hold better than short, but I am willing to try a shorter tip in an attempt to get more durability. Also the tips you are using are not the best in my opinion. I like tines with at least one cone welded (or pressed); I don't know how they do it, near the end of the tip. These tips hold much better, especially when delivered to the gill plate.

azspearo
10-07-2008, 09:10 PM
Thanks for the input. I've been spearing a long time and I think I have a good understanding on what works and what doesn't just by looking at it.
Without yours or anyones input my products are only as good as what I think they are. I always appreciate suggestions and feedback on what I build both good and bad this is how I can better my products.

I built a couple of different tips with multiple,long and short floppers. This happens to be the short one, I hope to find out with this what the minimum length flopper can be used and still retain fish. Most my initial testing is done on land before it hits the water.
From looking at it it seems like it won't work but it works well from the tests I've done.

Just an observation, but it seems that the flopper needs to be a bit longer on the slip-tip. The way I see it, the tail end of the tip would still be inside the fish and the flopper does not appear that it would be enough to keep the entire tip from coming back through if enough force were applied.

By having the flopper longer than the tail end of the tip, the entire tip would have passed through the body of the fish before being toggled.

mnguy
10-07-2008, 09:17 PM
Oh yeah, Aaron, John Hanson is borrowing that second pole that I got from you at the Gat-Ku meet for the sturgill. Ought to get some nice big fish pics with it on Sunday.

azspearo
10-07-2008, 10:38 PM
The tines/prongs are 3/16" dia. I'll be coming out with two different paralyzer tine placement 0 and 1, the ones on my website are 1.
Most of my suppliers don't sell in small lots but there are company's on the net I use for prototyping but they rarely come heat treated.
When I start to go into full production I can send you some heat treated
tines for what I pay for them.



Also, Aaron, what is the offset between the prongs at the end and what width are they? I've been looking for prongs for an idea of mine for awhile but I can't find them, other than the mustad ones that I can't seem to find a supplier for.

azspearo
10-08-2008, 12:36 AM
You could go with a cluster tip, they have 4-6 tines with barbs 4" to 6" long.
If you have a chance to shoot a 30lbs fish your out gunned with a paralyzer you need to step up to a spear shaft tip or slip-tip.

What brand of paralyzer are you using and are the tines spring steel or spring stainless?
I'm not a fan of barbs because I believe with a properly designed and sharpened tip they should have no problem holding the fish.

When the tines are parallel or almost parallel with each other they will have more gripping force on the speared fish then with paralyzers that have their tines spread too far apart. I like tines that will stay within the circumference of a quarter at the pointy part.


I really wish someone would make a SHORTER 3-prong pole spear tip. I sometimes spear 30 lb free swimming fish (like amberjack) with a 3-prong and I usually have to bring out the pliers to try to bend it back into shape.

I assume the longer tines will hold better than short, but I am willing to try a shorter tip in an attempt to get more durability. Also the tips you are using are not the best in my opinion. I like tines with at least one cone welded (or pressed); I don't know how they do it, near the end of the tip. These tips hold much better, especially when delivered to the gill plate.

SnpperWhisperer
10-08-2008, 04:56 AM
>You could go with a cluster tip, they have 4-6 tines with barbs 4" to 6" long.
If you have a chance to shoot a 30lbs fish your out gunned with a paralyzer you need to step up to a spear shaft tip or slip-tip.

My thoughts are the same as Aaron's. 3 prongs are not really suited to your application, jfjf. Your prongs will bend if driven on a spear that is too heavy, whereas my Hawaiian hybrid 3 prong is only light and does not have enough weight to bend the barbs to any degree. I've never seen any multi-barbed tip except a clusterhead hold onto a fish 30 pounds+ (like the ones common here in NZ and Aussie - 5 - 6 tines all with pressed permanent barbs). My view is that you may find a single flopper on a standard shaft, or a sliptip, better suited to what you are doing (I certainly do).

Just like gun sizes, pole spear choices will limit what you can hope to land.

mnguy
10-08-2008, 05:16 AM
The tines/prongs are 3/16" dia. I'll be coming out with two different paralyzer tine placement 0 and 1, the ones on my website are 1.
Most of my suppliers don't sell in small lots but there are company's on the net I use for prototyping but they rarely come heat treated.
When I start to go into full production I can send you some heat treated
tines for what I pay for them.

Thanks Aaron. Do you know if they have prongs in 4mm?

OceanEd
10-08-2008, 09:41 AM
Aaron:

I've had the same problem the JFJF has had with the paralyzer tips. I eventually just switched to slip tips and fixed tips.

I have a question on the slip tip. I like the design except for the slip ring that holds the line that is attached to the tip. My problem with the slip rings is that once the tip is in the fish and the fish is pulling on the line the slip ring is pulled to the end of the shaft. With the ring at the outer end of the shaft this creates tremendous force on the shaft and makes the chances of the shaft bending much higher.

Would there be a way to attach the line to the base of the shaft where the shaft is connected to the pole itself? Then the force of the fighting fish would not be able to bend the shaft. It pretty much takes the shaft out of the equation once you deliver the tip.

I have tried this as an experiment and it seemed to work quite well. I would like to find an easy way to keep the line secured to the shaft easily once I put the slip tip on the end of the shaft with this method. So far I am just using a rubber band that I wrap around the shaft at the bottom, but you are a lot smarter than I am when it comes to these things.

azspearo
10-08-2008, 09:43 AM
I can get it in 5/32" 0.1563" 3.9688mm is that close enough?

Thanks Aaron. Do you know if they have prongs in 4mm?

seacrecher
10-08-2008, 01:33 PM
Thanks for the input. I've been spearing a long time and I think I have a good understanding on what works and what doesn't just by looking at it.
Without yours or anyones input my products are only as good as what I think they are. I always appreciate suggestions and feedback on what I build both good and bad this is how I can better my products.

I built a couple of different tips with multiple,long and short floppers. This happens to be the short one, I hope to find out with this what the minimum length flopper can be used and still retain fish. Most my initial testing is done on land before it hits the water.
From looking at it it seems like it won't work but it works well from the tests I've done.



Looking forward to the results report:beer:

mnguy
10-08-2008, 01:33 PM
That'd be perfect Aaron. Let me know how much it costs and how many prongs per unit when you find out. Thanks man, I owe you one.

florfreediver
10-08-2008, 10:04 PM
Aaron:

Would there be a way to attach the line to the base of the shaft where the shaft is connected to the pole itself? Then the force of the fighting fish would not be able to bend the shaft. It pretty much takes the shaft out of the equation once you deliver the tip.
I have tried this as an experiment and it seemed to work quite well.

Hi OceanEd,
Sounds like similar to the Henley system you are describing.
But I have to say, it is still not foolproof.

Those ruffians in Bermuda still bend even the heavy Henley shanks.

With the attachment at the base of the shaft, the polespears gets pulled sideways into the coral by the big Rockfish and the force is enough to bend the shanks.

Not sure how you would stop this action.

BTW the Bermudan Mad Veterinarian appears to be still regularly landing Wahoo with his polespear. He sent me some more photos recently.

Regards,
Mike.

jfjf
10-08-2008, 10:17 PM
You could go with a cluster tip, they have 4-6 tines with barbs 4" to 6" long.
If you have a chance to shoot a 30lbs fish your out gunned with a paralyzer you need to step up to a spear shaft tip or slip-tip.

What brand of paralyzer are you using and are the tines spring steel or spring stainless?
I'm not a fan of barbs because I believe with a properly designed and sharpened tip they should have no problem holding the fish.

When the tines are parallel or almost parallel with each other they will have more gripping force on the speared fish then with paralyzers that have their tines spread too far apart. I like tines that will stay within the circumference of a quarter at the pointy part.

I don't know the brand of tip I am using. i think they are stainless spring steel. I destroy 2-3 per year. I freeshaft when scuba diving often and the pole spear is my "second shaft". I use a short, relatively heavy aluminum pole spear with a reasonably strong band. It hits hard from close range.

I also shoot a number of small fish with the paralyzer tip and the speed with which they can be removed is a big advantage. I know that a single flopper tip would hold bigger fish, but it is slower to remove fish and I don't shoot big fish often with the pole spear, so I feel the paralyzer tip is the best compromise for my diving.


If I could just get a 6 mm threaded tip that was short and strong!

SnpperWhisperer
10-08-2008, 10:49 PM
Mike - let's see the pix of those 'hoo !

azspearo
10-08-2008, 11:42 PM
[QUOTE=OceanEd;800636]Aaron:
I have a question on the slip tip. I like the design except for the slip ring that holds the line that is attached to the tip. My problem with the slip rings is that once the tip is in the fish and the fish is pulling on the line the slip ring is pulled to the end of the shaft. With the ring at the outer end of the shaft this creates tremendous force on the shaft and makes the chances of the shaft bending much higher.

Would there be a way to attach the line to the base of the shaft where the shaft is connected to the pole itself? Then the force of the fighting fish would not be able to bend the shaft. It pretty much takes the shaft out of the equation once you deliver the tip.
QUOTE]

I believe most divers will be using a floatline with this setup and with a floatline there will less chance of bending the shaft.
On my big game spears I changed the front spear attachment end from aluminum to stainless. I could drill a hole through the stainless for the slip line
When I get my SS pieces back from the machinist I'll try one out.

I'm still working on the carbon shaft, I did look into carbon arrows but they are to light weight for the spear.
This project is on the back burner until I get some other projects finished.
When are you headed out to the Bahamas?

azspearo
10-08-2008, 11:45 PM
Mike, is Bermudan Mad Veterinarian the diver with the Puig/Jbl hybrid?

OceanEd
10-08-2008, 11:50 PM
Aaron:

I tried carbon arrows in the front end of your spear also and like you say, they are just too light. You really need a solid CF shaft.

I drilled a hole through the front end of the pole on one of my Cockerham pole spears to give the idea a try and it worked well so give it a try with your new SS front end. It doesn't affect the performance of the spear at all and gives the line a firm anchor from which to fight a fish without bending the shaft. Like I said, you only have to find a way to secure the extra line so it is tight and will keep the slip tip on the end (unless your slip tip stays on with some sort of gasket instead of relying on a tight line to hold it on).

Are you coming to the Spearfishing Symposium this year? I am going to be doing a pole spear workshop with some unique things happening. Let me know if you are coming so I can get you involved. Your knowledge would be invaluable.

Our house was flooded in Tropical Storm Fay. I might not make it to the Bahamas this winter because we are going to have to rebuild the interior. It's a bit funny because we bought the house so that if the boat ever sank we would have a place to live. Never thought the house would sink!

OceanEd
10-08-2008, 11:59 PM
Mike:

I agree that it is like the Henley system. Does the Henley wire attach to the rear end of the shaft or the front end of the pole itself? As I recall, it attaches to the front end of the pole also. I don't use a slip tip if I am spearing on a reef so I don't have the problem of having a fish going into a crevice or hole and the pole and shaft being brought up sideways at the entrance. The big groupers in the Bahamas love to hole up and it is too hard to geth them out with a slip tip. The only way I know to stop what you are describing is to use a fixed tip.

How long is that "Wahoo killer" of a pole spear he uses? 16 feet??

Aaron:

Yes, he is the one shooting the wahoo. If you really look at his super long pole in the pictures you will find that by using the JBL front end he has a much lighter pole overall so he obviously still has some power and thrust. As you recall, when I put the 4 ft. extension on your pole it ended up having so much mass that I just couldn't get any range or power. I think he also does a lot of chumming to bring them in close.

azspearo
10-09-2008, 09:19 PM
"Are you coming to the Spearfishing Symposium this year?"

My wife and I are going to try and make it, it all depends on how sales go this winter.

"I am going to be doing a pole spear workshop with some unique things happening. Let me know if you are coming so I can get you involved. Your knowledge would be invaluable."

I sure got you fooled;) Thanks for the invite to help out. I talked with Sheri the other daye to get some info and prices, I told her I could help out if needed.

"Our house was flooded in Tropical Storm Fay. I might not make it to the Bahamas this winter because we are going to have to rebuild the interior. It's a bit funny because we bought the house so that if the boat ever sank we would have a place to live. Never thought the house would sink!"

Sorry to here about that. So are you currently living on your boat?

azspearo
10-12-2008, 11:13 PM
Made a couple more slip-tips http://cristspears.com/prototypes bottom of page. One of them will be getting some testing in Costa Rica next week.

OceanEd
10-13-2008, 09:05 AM
Aaron:

We moved on to the boat the day we were flooded out of the house but have since moved back into the house once we ripped out everything that was ruined and dried it out. We are now working towards having the interior rebuilt.

I love the second new slip tip design (the bottom pictures). Hopefully you will have time in the future to try attaching it to the pole or the base of the shaft. Also, if you ever get around to trying a CF shaft it might make sense to attach it to the pole.

hardway
10-13-2008, 12:48 PM
Those tips looks sweet Aaron, I'm excited to see them in person and play around with them. Sure wish I was getting to do the testing down in CR, can't wait to see what Dom does with them!

mnguy
10-13-2008, 03:42 PM
Those tips looks sweet Aaron, I'm excited to see them in person and play around with them. Sure wish I was getting to do the testing down in CR, can't wait to see what Dom does with them!

Wait wait wait, Dom's the one doing the testing in CR? What a lucky bastard. Wish it were me.

Oh yeah, Aaron and Aaron, you guys missed out on a rockin Sturgill meet. I got a 21 pound goat and it rocked up in a cave that I could barely fit into. Took me about 30 minutes to get it out, and I only got it out by going into the cave to my ankles to dig it out. I then had to grab it by the gills as it was still alive and use my free hand to back out of the cave. My friends took some pictures of it and I'll put them up when I get them.

I was using that Mori double flopper slip tip that I showed you guys at the Gat-Ku meet. I shot it through the gillplate and it went into the mouth and the forward flopper deployed on the far side of the fish's tongue from underneath. We had to do some surgery on the boat to get the tip out.

seacrecher
10-13-2008, 04:27 PM
Made a couple more slip-tips http://cristspears.com/prototypes bottom of page. One of them will be getting some testing in Costa Rica next week.

Very nice! Looking forward to the report.:beer:

hardway
10-13-2008, 06:44 PM
Wait wait wait, Dom's the one doing the testing in CR? What a lucky bastard. Wish it were me.

Oh yeah, Aaron and Aaron, you guys missed out on a rockin Sturgill meet. I got a 21 pound goat and it rocked up in a cave that I could barely fit into. Took me about 30 minutes to get it out, and I only got it out by going into the cave to my ankles to dig it out. I then had to grab it by the gills as it was still alive and use my free hand to back out of the cave. My friends took some pictures of it and I'll put them up when I get them.

I was using that Mori double flopper slip tip that I showed you guys at the Gat-Ku meet. I shot it through the gillplate and it went into the mouth and the forward flopper deployed on the far side of the fish's tongue from underneath. We had to do some surgery on the boat to get the tip out.


Yep, Dom's getting going to CR, I'm pretty jealous right now. It's the third time he's been down there in about two years, one of these days he's going to tell me he's moving down there, I know it!
The Sturgill sounds like fun, wish I could have made it. The two meets in two days thing wasn't flying with the wife though, and I had to do the Randy Fry (which was a blast, btw). Can't wait to check out the pics, sounds like you had some fun with that goat!:beer:

mnguy
10-13-2008, 06:49 PM
Yeah, I wanted to come up and do the Randy Fry too, but 2 tournaments in 2 days just like you said. I could barely move after the Sturgill I was so tired, there's no way in hell that I would have been able to do much of anything if I was at the RF meet the day before. Oh well. I think John (seacrecher) might have a shot of it.

Oh yeah, a few cabezon were landed too. I forget who, but someone shot a huuuuuge one. Went something like 11 lbs. Head was like 2 softballs wrapped together with enough tape to make it round.

hardway
10-13-2008, 09:51 PM
Damn! 11 lb cab is huge! Nothing spectacular at the Randy, but lots of nice fish and abs considering the lousy vis. Great group of divers and lots of beer though! The 86'd the polespear division this year, so it was just one big open division. I kind of liked it that way better, although we would have been second in polespear instead of fourth overall.

azspearo
10-13-2008, 10:04 PM
Nice going on the Sheephead. Curious on what length spear and size of band you were using?
One nice thing about this style of tip is you you can take the shaft and run it through the same hole the tip made, then take the pointed end of the tip and insert it into the adapter backward. Make sure you pull the tip line while your pulling out the shaft.
Can't wait to see the pics...how did your friend do?

Wait wait wait, Dom's the one doing the testing in CR? What a lucky bastard. Wish it were me.

Oh yeah, Aaron and Aaron, you guys missed out on a rockin Sturgill meet. I got a 21 pound goat and it rocked up in a cave that I could barely fit into. Took me about 30 minutes to get it out, and I only got it out by going into the cave to my ankles to dig it out. I then had to grab it by the gills as it was still alive and use my free hand to back out of the cave. My friends took some pictures of it and I'll put them up when I get them.

I was using that Mori double flopper slip tip that I showed you guys at the Gat-Ku meet. I shot it through the gillplate and it went into the mouth and the forward flopper deployed on the far side of the fish's tongue from underneath. We had to do some surgery on the boat to get the tip out.

fishpkt
10-14-2008, 09:58 AM
Aaron,
Once you are done with the tests how soon will you pushing the slip tips out with your spears?

Steve

seacrecher
10-14-2008, 03:11 PM
Yeah, I wanted to come up and do the Randy Fry too, but 2 tournaments in 2 days just like you said. I could barely move after the Sturgill I was so tired, there's no way in hell that I would have been able to do much of anything if I was at the RF meet the day before. Oh well. I think John (seacrecher) might have a shot of it.

Oh yeah, a few cabezon were landed too. I forget who, but someone shot a huuuuuge one. Went something like 11 lbs. Head was like 2 softballs wrapped together with enough tape to make it round.

Mike,

I have a few pics. I will upload them tonight. Congrats on the "Big Fish" trophy!:allhail:

The cab that was shot was 11.8lbs:eek: When that fish came on the boat, I couldn't believe it! I thought it was a ling when Brandon swam to the boat with it.

azspearo
10-14-2008, 08:35 PM
Aaron,
Once you are done with the tests how soon will you pushing the slip tips out with your spears?

Steve

I'm confident that the tip will perform as expected, so I started gearing up to make them.
At first I'll make them for 5/16" 6mm and 5/16"-24 threaded shafts, then 9/16" shafts with 6mm thread.
One small hold up is the slide ring I'm currently making from 316 SS tubing and welding them I would like to build them in 17-4 or 15-5 if the 316 doesn't hold up.
To keep the price of the tip under $50 I'm going to build my own heat treat oven so I can heat treat the shafts, tips and tines.
As soon as I hear back from the R&D crew I'll be ready to go.

Silentspear
10-14-2008, 08:36 PM
I can't wait till my parents let me buy one of your spears!!! :thumps:

mnguy
10-14-2008, 08:58 PM
Nice going on the Sheephead. Curious on what length spear and size of band you were using?
One nice thing about this style of tip is you you can take the shaft and run it through the same hole the tip made, then take the pointed end of the tip and insert it into the adapter backward. Make sure you pull the tip line while your pulling out the shaft.
Can't wait to see the pics...how did your friend do?

I was using the original spear you sent me, 3 piece 9 footer with an 18" shank and the stock rubber you sent it with. Man, I swear, with any other polespear I truly believe that I would have bent the polespear into a pretzel or just flat out broken it. Hell, I thought I was going to wreck the 18" shaft for sure. Turns out that everything is still arrow straight, though theres a decent amount of anodizing gouged off of the front end.

Man, I didn't even think of using the adapter on the shaft as the easy way to pull the tip out. Thanks Aaron, you've probably saved me a lifetime of headaches trying to get fish off of that Mori tip!

I got a couple of pics from my buddy that was on the boat.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m96/mnguy004/SturgillMeet08003.jpg

On this one, if you look closely right above where my index finger is on the fish's jaw, you can see the hole that the tip made as it pierced through the gillplate and out the lower jaw. God I look extra asian in this one.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m96/mnguy004/SturgillMeet08006.jpg

You can see where the tip lodged under the tongue in this one.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m96/mnguy004/SturgillMeet08007.jpg

If you're asking about the guy who borrowed the other spear, Seacrecher is the one that did. I believe he ended up being panguero for a couple of guys and didn't dive though.

hardway
10-14-2008, 10:32 PM
Nice fish ****er!

azspearo
10-15-2008, 01:44 AM
Nice fish Mike, you can tell by the smile on your face that you really worked for it. Glad the spear did it's part. When I first designed the spear back in '01 it was out of necessity and seeing my Dad bounce his polespear off a 25+lb Sheephead gill plate.

florfreediver
10-16-2008, 09:33 PM
Mike, is Bermudan Mad Veterinarian the diver with the Puig/Jbl hybrid?

Hi All,
Sorry about sluggish response but I am away from the shop for a while and do not check SB enough.

Aaron: Yes, as Ed mentioned, thats the culprit and he uses that particular combination when hunting Pelagics.
He mentioned something about also throwing part of a surgical steel nail into the hybrid as well. To support the Torres slip tip.
So It looks like :-
Mad Vet --> float line --> Manny Puig base --> JBL front --> Surgical nail shank --> Torres Slip tip --> Wahoo
Aaron: Looking forward to stocking up on your Crist equipment for the new season.

Reid: I will ask the missus (Cherryl) to forward his email to me here in Louisiana and will then post the Wahoo picture.

Regards,
Mike.

seacrecher
10-24-2008, 09:24 PM
A little late, but, better late than never. Due to some "technical difficulties" that I just got resolved, here are some pics of Mike's winning fish at the Sturgill Pole Spear Meet.

Congrats Mike, nice fish!:thumps:

seacrecher
10-24-2008, 09:25 PM
Here's another pic of the "JUMBO" cab shot by Brandon Whalers. It was 11.8lbs:eek:

classtimesailer
10-25-2008, 10:26 AM
Aaron, Ed,
You probably considered this already but...
Regarding the attachment of the slip tip line at the base or the end of the shaft...
What about a collar above the sleeve with a set screw, or a set screw in the sleeve itself?
Jeff