Are you a terrorist? Are you sure?

[Marcus]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-cop-spy7-2008dec07,0,7348229.story

[Prater]

Thats too funny. They screwed the pouch on that one.

[Bill McIntyre]

Thats too funny. They screwed the pouch on that one.

Its not funny if you are one of the people put on a terrorist list.

[Fis_Hunter]

Intresting I will have to read more later. I thought this comment was intresting.

Critics say such investigations violate constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech and assembly, and serve to inhibit lawful dissent."

I got the impression that they were free to say what ever they liked, it would only be a problem if the speach was a conspericy to commit a crime.

How does it inpair your right to free speach if someone may be listening I thought that was the point of free speach.

Being added to a watch list I would want to know why.

[Fis_Hunter]

People have bombed abortion clinics burned down houses and destroyed Vehicles and buisnesses in the name of all these causes. I guess you could say there could be terrorism there. I would think it is thier job to find out.

[Prater]

Bill,

I think it is funny that the investigation got leaked, and was a poor investigation. Whoever leaked it I am sure did so because of something completely irrelevant to the investigation.

I am sure its not funny to those beeing investigated, but if I was the top tier of a movement that can be considered a threat of domestic violence I would expect to be under some form of survelience. You think all the wanted eco friendly groups started off violent, or just worked up to the point were they became radical?

[Bill McIntyre]

I am sure its not funny to those beeing investigated, but if I was the top tier of a movement that can be considered a threat of domestic violence I would expect to be under some form of survelience. You think all the wanted eco friendly groups started off violent, or just worked up to the point were they became radical?

You must have read a different article, or not read this one very closely, if you think these people could be considered a threat of domestic violence.

Investigators, the files show, targeted groups that advocated against abortion, global warming, nuclear arms, military recruiting in high schools and biodefense research, among other issues.

A hell of a lot of people on this board have advocated against abortion. Should that get them on a terrorist list? Where should I send their names?

Most of the files list terrorism as a "primary crime" and a "secondary crime," then add subgroups for designations such as antiwar protester.

Some contain errors and inconsistencies that are almost comical.

Nancy Kricorian, 48, a novelist on the terrorist list, is coordinator for the New York City chapter of CodePink, an antiwar group. She serves as liaison with local police for group protests, and has never been arrested.

"I have no idea why I made the list," she said. "I've never been to the state of Maryland, except maybe to stop for gas on the way to Washington."

Josh Tulkin, 27, a registered lobbyist with the Virginia state Legislature, is cited under "terrorism -- environmental extremists." Tulkin was deputy director of Chesapeake Climate Action Network, an environmental group that claims 15,000 members and regularly meets with governors and members of Congress.

Hell, I've protested the war in Iraq repeatedly. Does this make me dangerous? Should I find out I'm a suspected terrorist when I try to board plane to go to the Expo in Ft. Lauderdale in February?

You may be comfortable with big brother watching everyone, but you could always move to Russia or China if that is the society you want.

[sciencemike]

My best friends roommate was taken by the FBI for doing a domestic terrorist act against an auto dealership here in Los Angeles(News Report against him (http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/03/10/news/state/3_9_0423_17_27.txt)).

Working at a lot of Uni's we see terrorist acts against workers who do animal experimentation and its very serious to the people who are the targets of these nut jobs. Environmental extremists, American Taliban, and the animal activists use terror to enact change. This is terrorism, of course a few innocents are always going to be labeled as guilty. Isnt that to be expected, but hopefully rectified? But to protect against people who value their cause more than human life is worth it.


Edit in. Seeing your post above Bill, I also feel the line needs to be drawn somewhere when it comes to our government protecting its people vs. Individual rights. But i also think some of these innocents are not so innocent. You would have never known this guy was a terrorist. He was a very promising young scientist who worked hard and was doing amazing research. He would have been one of these poster children for this report. I can see him being included in the story if he didnt blow up some SUV's. One Day the two guys in suits showed up at my friends house after the terrorist went to breakfast, and took all of his computer equipment. Then within 1 minute of his gear being taken the suspect was arrested.

[Bill McIntyre]

My best friends roommate was taken by the FBI for doing a domestic terrorist act against an auto dealership here in Los Angeles(News Report against him (http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/03/10/news/state/3_9_0423_17_27.txt)).

This is terrorism, of course a few innocents are always going to be labeled as guilty.

Especially if you investigate groups that have never been involved in a single instance of illegal activity.

[Tino Bernazzani]

Sounds like she was a newbie to the whole undercover thing.
Maybe they wanted her to start off small before she tried infiltrating the American Al Qaeda??? :rolleyes:
Personally I think she should have started with the PTA.
Ever been to a heated PTA meeting?
Some of those mom's mean business.:p

[jackpine savage]

People think its funny but the easiest way to erode the Constitution is to infringe on the rights of the people you find most offensive. Just because someone doesn't like the message of an organization doesn't mean that message isn't protected by the Constitution.

[Prater]

OK guys,

lets just stop the investigations until something bad happens and then we can go back and blame the government agencies that they did not do their job...People just want something to bitch about, first its rights violations, then its governments lack of responsibility all over again. Where the hell does it say that agencies dont have the right to investigate a person? Iguess all that work for the ABLE Commision I did back when I was 19 was wrong because I did not tell them they were under investigation for illegal activity...

[divefilm]

I particularly liked when the FBI took a woman in san fran away as a terrorism suspect a week after 9/11. She is a jewish lesbian who runs a lesbian newspaper, and they thought she was helping the 9/11 terrorists.

If THATS the FBI thats doing the investigation, I would say it doesn't matter WHO they watch, they will **** it up somehow.

And who cares if people blame the gov't? Does any one ever get fired from the gov't? Is accountability a part of gov't service?

No.

[sciencemike]

I particularly liked when the FBI took a woman in san fran away as a terrorism suspect a week after 9/11. She is a jewish lesbian who runs a lesbian newspaper, and they thought she was helping the 9/11 terrorists.

If THATS the FBI thats doing the investigation, I would say it doesn't matter WHO they watch, they will **** it up somehow.

And who cares if people blame the gov't? Does any one ever get fired from the gov't? Is accountability a part of gov't service?

No.

Come on, just because she is a lesbian and a jew she cant be a terrorist? I have known some pretty hard core feminist's in my day and i wouldnt put it past a few of them to do Terrorist acts. -one even cheered when the WTC was attacked.

I think we all admit there are mistakes? But the #1 purpose of our government is to provide for our safety, liberty and prosperity come second. And we know that mistakes will always be made, its foolish to think otherwise, and when millions of people are being investigated a few will get on the wrong list.

I hate George Bush just as much as the rest of you do, but homegrown terror should be investigated, and when "expose" journalism seizes upon a few eggs that are sorted wrongly, I think we need to be thankful that the teeth on the comb are fine enough to get some false postitives. Quite honestly when I see these people on the list who are "innocent" it makes me feel confidant that they are out there searching for the ones who arent.

Seriously is anyone out there on spearboard on one of the watch lists? I was given a pretty good workup a few years ago when me and my brother bought last minute one way tickets to our grandfathers funeral, and we share the last name of one famous bomber, the combination of the two drew some kinda red flag. We missed our plane but they put us on another one. It was no BFD. I consider this one of those stories that doesnt affect anyone who knows anyone that I know, yet homegrown terror affects almost every University Campus that does animal research, or any doctor that does abortions in the south.

[HurricaneBK]

Here is something from a textbook of mine on counterrorism strategy I was reading this morning to study for my final.
"Obviously, most people are in favor of protecting animals and saving the environment. However, most people do not send letter bombs to corporations, set up boobly traps intent on injuring loggers, or firebomb department stores that sell furs."
Of course you're entitled to an opinion and your first amendment rights, but murder, bodily harm, or intimidation, even against loggers, animal researchers, or abortion doctors, is still illegal.

[jackpine savage]

"The Maryland operation also has ended, but critics still question why police spent hundreds of hours spying on Quakers and other peace groups in a state that reported more than 36,000 violent crimes last year."

Real serious national security threat. They need to prioritize. Remember under one administration a pacifist is a threat, under another its a gun-owner. Don't give the government the power to spy on any of its citizens.

[Bill McIntyre]

Damn Quakers!

[Marcus]

Our biggest threat to freedom comes not from 'potential' foreign or domestic terrorists, it comes from an ever expanding intrusive Federal Government. The founders knew all too well of this threat and warned us of it.

[zenspearo]

Those poetry reading people can be vicious.

I saw a girl read her poem, and dramatically ended her reading by tearing up the sheet of paper on which the poem was written.

Violent types to be investigated for sure.

[Nate Baker]

Damn Quakers!

You never know. Wasn't Nixon a Quaker?

[Bill McIntyre]

You never know. Wasn't Nixon a Quaker?

Well OK, but there's a bad apple in every barrel. I don't think he was actually a practicing Quaker anyway.

[mbhalihunter]

Here is something from a textbook of mine on counterrorism strategy I was reading this morning to study for my final.
"Obviously, most people are in favor of protecting animals and saving the environment. However, most people do not send letter bombs to corporations, set up boobly traps intent on injuring loggers, or firebomb department stores that sell furs."

Boobly traps, that made me giggle a bit. I can just imagine what that would look like.:lol:

[Fis_Hunter]

Boobly traps, that made me giggle a bit. I can just imagine what that would look like.:lol:

The most vicious of traps gets most men and some women as well. :eek:


It is not illegal for a person to join a group or a number of groups and report on the groups activities. It is not illegal to keep a written record of the activities and the group members.

Since there is little wording from the actual reports in the news piece it is hard to tell what her reports consisted of.

It sounds like she had been using a cataloging system of some type to keep track of her reports like Sept 27 XXXX meeting suspected type of activity anamil activism domestic terrorism. Now she would list who was there and what happened.

Looks like she did this 29 times without finding any terrorist activity.

"That proved true for all 29 meetings, rallies and protests that Lucy ultimately attended. Most drew only a handful of people, and none involved illegal or disruptive actions."

I did notice that the news artical only has ststments from attornies and people about how innocent they are and does not list what was in the report which may have been the basis for thier listings on a terrorism watch list.

[toggy]

Im oceanographer and technically the Navy owns our ships. So two years ago the DHS dictated that we all need to get transportation workers identifcation cards (TWIC). To get one required that we all get fingerprinted and background checks by the FBI. (remember this is to use an ocean research vessel that has a max speed of about 14 knots).

We all went through this ridiculous exercise anyway and let them waste money on background checks. Well many in my field are international scientists. Everyone who was not a US citizen (canadians, brits, everyone!) got a letter back with harsh wording saying that they have been deemed a terrorists threat and will not be given a TWIC. When I heard this I laughed my arse off and made fun of my terrorist coworkers.

But then some of them (especially the guest students) started freaking out. They were nervous for various reasons. They were about to invest years of their life to get a degree in the USA and would have to fly home sometimes and what would happen. They had been invited here, given a visa, and were now told they were officially on record by the DHS as a terrorist threat.

So senators got involved and it got all big (there were articles in the new york times etc.). All the students wanted was a retraction for the harsh wording. They didn't care about getting denied TWIC cards as they were told they could still use the ships so long as they had escorts. But they didnt want to be listed on DHS's terrorist risk list. And why were they told to apply if this is what it would get them. DHS has still yet to retract the wording or even respond. Its been about a year.

While it was really fun to make fun of them for being declared threats....its really not funny, these people are not terrorists (not even threatening - believe me) and should not be treated this way by our government. not cool

-Matt

[Marcus]

It is not illegal for a person to join a group or a number of groups and report on the groups activities. It is not illegal to keep a written record of the activities and the group members.

It should be illegal to have your name placed on a terrorist watch list, without a hearing, because you attend these meetings. The terrorist watch list can jeopardize your freedoms and means to make living. This is scary stuff.
The inability to assemble and air our grievences against the government without retribution is F'd up. That WAS one of our basic freedoms that has been taken away for OUR protection??? :rolleyes:

[divefilm]

Come on, just because she is a lesbian and a jew she cant be a terrorist? I have known some pretty hard core feminist's in my day and i wouldnt put it past a few of them to do Terrorist acts. -one even cheered when the WTC was attacked.

I think we all admit there are mistakes? But the #1 purpose of our government is to provide for our safety, liberty and prosperity come second. And we know that mistakes will always be made, its foolish to think otherwise, and when millions of people are being investigated a few will get on the wrong list.

I hate George Bush just as much as the rest of you do, but homegrown terror should be investigated, and when "expose" journalism seizes upon a few eggs that are sorted wrongly, I think we need to be thankful that the teeth on the comb are fine enough to get some false postitives. Quite honestly when I see these people on the list who are "innocent" it makes me feel confidant that they are out there searching for the ones who arent.

Seriously is anyone out there on spearboard on one of the watch lists? I was given a pretty good workup a few years ago when me and my brother bought last minute one way tickets to our grandfathers funeral, and we share the last name of one famous bomber, the combination of the two drew some kinda red flag. We missed our plane but they put us on another one. It was no BFD. I consider this one of those stories that doesnt affect anyone who knows anyone that I know, yet homegrown terror affects almost every University Campus that does animal research, or any doctor that does abortions in the south.


No, it means shes not a terrorist who HELPED THE 9/11 HIGHJACKERS. They didn't haul her away asking about PETA or universities, they asked what she knew about 9/11.

If thats the FBI thats looking out for my safety, I'll take my chances on my own.