Intellectual Discussion

[DIVERTOM]

DETROIT (AP) -- Festering animosity between the United Auto Workers and Southern senators who torpedoed the auto industry bailout bill erupted into full-fledged name calling Friday as union officials accused the lawmakers of trying to break the union on behalf of foreign automakers.

My Question is why is the South so Anti-Labor?

The auto bail out is supposed to be a loan. Why are they so anti-labor
in the south, I have never seen a group of Yankee politicians voice any
dissent at all when hurricanes wipe out southern areas and they need
help re-building or complain about all the money spent on anti-poverty
laws. Why is there such a hatred when most labor jobs in the auto industry
are done by southern folks who moved up there to find a good paying job
and then retire back in the south with a good pension and invigorate
there poor neighborhoods with these funds?

[divefilm]

Because they are republican and republicans aren't exactly the friend of the working man, or unions. Thats the only thing I can figure.

[Bill McIntyre]

Good question.

Just don't count on an intellectual discussion.

[Marcus]

Do you guys have any data to back up the assertion that only 'southern' Republicans opposed the auto maker bailout? If so, please share.

[jackpine savage]

Do you guys have any data to back up the assertion that only 'southern' Republicans opposed the auto maker bailout? If so, please share.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/politics&id=6552456&rss=rss-wpvi-article-6552456

This has the vote by senator in it.

[jackpine savage]

Republicans that voted against the auto bailout-
Allard, Colo.; Barrasso, Wyo.; Bennett, Utah; Bunning, Ky.; Burr, N.C.; Chambliss, Ga.; Coburn, Okla.; Cochran, Miss.; Coleman, Minn.; Corker, Tenn.; Crapo, Idaho; DeMint, S.C.; Ensign, Nev.; Enzi, Wyo.; Grassley, Iowa; Gregg, N.H.; Hatch, Utah; Hutchison, Texas; Inhofe, Okla.; Isakson, Ga.; Kyl, Ariz.; Martinez, Fla.; McCain, Ariz.; McConnell, Ky.; Murkowski, Alaska; Roberts, Kan.; Sessions, Ala.; Shelby, Ala.; Thune, S.D.; Vitter, La.; Wicker, Miss.

Democrats voting no-Baucus, Mont.; Lincoln, Ark.; Reid, Nev.; Tester, Mont.

Strange that Harry Reid voted against it according to this site.

[Marcus]

Looking at the voter record, I'd say it's a bit of a stretch to say that it was primarily 'southern' Republicans. It looks more like along party lines to me.

[bgbill]

Because they are republican and republicans aren't exactly the friend of the working man, or unions. Thats the only thing I can figure.

I am a Republican and a working man, why do you think Republicans aren't the friend of the working man?

I am not a fan of Unions and I pay my workers and subcontractors very well, and treat them very well, I don't think Unions are good for the US and the only time I will hire Union workers is when there is no alternative.

I am getting ready to do a job that needs an elevator, I would pay out of my own pocket an additional $10,000 for a non union company to do the job this is on a $45,000 job, but so far I have not found one.

[Marcus]

So it seems that some of you think that all that needs to happen is to get big enough as a company...then you've made it...you can run your business like shit and whine to the government that you're too 'big' to fail. All the while, a smaller company would be making the hard decisions..laying off people, taking pay cuts, risking additional financing. Do you guys think many people employed by these big 3 are hurting like the smaller guys? Why should they be given a free pass at the expense of us?
Reward should not be based on 'need'. It should be based on who has earned it...otherwise society and the economy falls apart. BTW, this isn't about Rep vs. Dems...I'm not a member of either. It's about logic.

[Wayward Son]

I've tried having actual discussions about this with union guys. Might as well be talking to a spare tire.

[divefilm]

So it seems that some of you think that all that needs to happen is to get big enough as a company...then you've made it...you can run your business like shit and whine to the government that you're too 'big' to fail. All the while, a smaller company would be making the hard decisions..laying off people, taking pay cuts, risking additional financing. Do you guys think many people employed by these big 3 are hurting like the smaller guys? Why should they be given a free pass at the expense of us?
Reward should not be based on 'need'. It should be based on who has earned it...otherwise society and the economy falls apart. BTW, this isn't about Rep vs. Dems...I'm not a member of either. It's about logic.

What about the guys who RAN THAT COMPANY INTO THE GROUND? Are they in danger of losing their house? Nope. The only thing they have to worry about is how to spend your money.

But ok, get pissed off at the assembly line workers. Its all their fault:rolleyes:

[bgbill]

What about the guys who RAN THAT COMPANY INTO THE GROUND? Are they in danger of losing their house? Nope. The only thing they have to worry about is how to spend your money.

But ok, get pissed off at the assembly line workers. Its all their fault:rolleyes:

I think all of them should be kicked to the curb.


Saturn in Tennesee is profitable, it is run by GM.

The difference between the Saturn Plant in Tennesee and the GM plant's in Michigan is the Saturn Plant is non union and making a profit and the GM plants in Michigan are union and losing money.

Seems to me the Union contracts may be the problem.

[Marcus]

What about the guys who RAN THAT COMPANY INTO THE GROUND? Are they in danger of losing their house? Nope. The only thing they have to worry about is how to spend your money.

But ok, get pissed off at the assembly line workers. Its all their fault:rolleyes:

Yes, the CEO's will probably lose their job. I'm not pissed at anyone. I feel for the workers but that's life...plain and simple...it doesn't owe you anything. My job was outsourced to China a year ago. I'm not crying about it. I pick myself up and find another job. I'm not expecting the government to come to my rescue. I'm an able individual capable of supporting myself without the government carrying me at the expense of others.

[Fis_Hunter]

What about the guys who RAN THAT COMPANY INTO THE GROUND? Are they in danger of losing their house? Nope. The only thing they have to worry about is how to spend your money.

But ok, get pissed off at the assembly line workers. Its all their fault:rolleyes:

Not sure I understand your logic. I will assume that "the guys who ran the company into the ground" are just like everyone else. They have set up their life like you or I have done they live within their means. they get a pay check like you and I do just a lot bigger, they have a house payment just like you and I do just bigger. They have bills just like you and I have just bigger. What would make you think they are so much smarter than you or I and set up their lives to give themselves some sort of immunity to financial decline?

"The only thing they have to worry about is how to spend your money."

Unless I buy a car from them they won't have my money. Oh wait if I buy a car from them I would get a car from them in exchange for my money so it would no longer be my money.

The only way they would get my money is if the government gives them my tax money in a bail out.

I like to think of this bail out process like a bucket full of water. If the water is leaking out and the bucket is gettting empty you can fill it back up over and over again but you still have a bucket that is leaking.

Find out why the bucket is leaking and fix it or throw it away and get a new bucket.

You need to look under the bucket find out where the hole is (You may get wet in the process) then plug it and refill the bucket.

[jackpine savage]

Not sure I understand your logic. I will assume that "the guys who ran the company into the ground" are just like everyone else. They have set up their life like you or I have done they live within their means. they get a pay check like you and I do just a lot bigger, they have a house payment just like you and I do just bigger. They have bills just like you and I have just bigger. What would make you think they are so much smarter than you or I and set up their lives to give themselves some sort of immunity to financial decline?

"The only thing they have to worry about is how to spend your money."

Unless I buy a car from them they won't have my money. Oh wait if I buy a car from them I would get a car from them in exchange for my money so it would no longer be my money.

The only way they would get my money is if the government gives them my tax money in a bail out.

I like to think of this bail out process like a bucket full of water. If the water is leaking out and the bucket is gettting empty you can fill it back up over and over again but you still have a bucket that is leaking.

Find out why the bucket is leaking and fix it or throw it away and get a new bucket.

You need to look under the bucket find out where the hole is (You may get wet in the process) then plug it and refill the bucket.

$20+million a year makes the CEO's of the big 3 very different from you and me.

[jackpine savage]

Do you guys have any data to back up the assertion that only 'southern' Republicans opposed the auto maker bailout? If so, please share.

While the votes were along party lines, their is a historical animosity to unions in the south.

[bgbill]

While the votes were along party lines, their is a historical animosity to unions in the south.



It could be because the people in the south don't appreciate Unions getting in the way of business.

At one period in time Unions were a good idea, they have for the most part become harmful to business, many times they have put companies out of business because they are unwilling to make reasonable concessions.

If I worked in a Union I wouldn't be happy making concessions but I would rather have a job with a pay cut than no job and if I really didn't want the pay cut I could leave and work elsewhere.

How hard is it to put some parts on a car in an assembly line?

The UAW will be the death of the Detroit car makers, I am sure they will end up moving to right to work states if they want to survive.

GM built a Saturn Plant in Tennessee and they are profitable and they are also non union.

Toyota is proffitable and they are non union.

The UAW are like dinosaurs and are on their way to extinction.

[SaltyFingers]

GM union workers make considerably more than Toyota workers and GM is going bankrupt and Toyota is managing its way in this tough economy. I believe the senators questioned the union workers if they would revamp their compensation and they said not until 2011. So, why should the tax payers fund GM workers to have a better compensation package than Toyota? What does GM offer over Toyota? Why do they deserve this?

I can understand the Senators point of view. Why didn’t the union workers want to find a common ground?

I can also see where the union workers contribute, but the executives are just as much, if not more of the problem.

DiverTom - Regarding the nation bailing out the south with Hurricanes … what area doesn’t have natural disasters? Be it earthquakes, snowstorms, tornadoes, etc. Do you think the south doesn’t contribute anything to the nation to deserve this? Consider oil alone. Take the southern states and the few thousand oil rigs away and see what happens…

[jackpine savage]

The reason the Big 3 have such a large layout per employee is due to their responsibilities to retired workers. There are over 1 million retired UAW workers who the BIg 3 are responsible for whether its pensions or healthcare. The Japanese companies have been building cars in the US for two decades or less and don't have the network of retirees dependent upon them so their cost per worker are much less. A fairer representation would be to see how much it costs Toyota per worker in Japan, where the are responsible for the benefits of a large number of retirees.

[DIVERTOM]

So where were these Southern Senators when the price of oil
was $150 and the oil companies were making record profits? I guess that
was OK because it was in the South! That's the mentality that makes me
laugh. I guess that the price of oil started to go up when GW got elected
and now is going down at the end of his eight years and nobody noticed.

The history of oil started in Western Pennsylvania, it was drillers from there
that went to Texas and found it there too. They found it, financed it,
learned how to distill it, then founded the first gas station. They changed
the world. Gulf Oil had it's headquarters in Pittsburgh. I'm sure they
employed a lot of folks from the Gulf area and paid them a decent wage.

I never hear any Northern senators complaining about those overpaid
oil rig workers, do you.

[SaltyFingers]

I guess the 1700+ oil rigs in the gulf that contribute to the world’s supply of oil do not matter and didn’t keep gas from going higher than it did.

You seem adamant on drawing a line between the North & South?

Since you wanted an intelligent discussion and seem to think the south doesn’t contribute anything … How about articulating an intelligent response considering all dimensions – not just your interest. How does the South not contribute to the US economy? How would the nation be better off without it? How about some credible references to back your viewpoint? APA style would be nice! :D

[spaghetti]

As posted in another thread: the cost of labour in US auto industry is the same as in France and lower than in Germany.
If you hope to improve your economy by lowering workers' incomes, well good luck because this has never been done before: that's....innovative!

[DIVERTOM]

Thanks Spagetti and everyone works a 35 hour work week and gets six
weeks of vacation a year the first year they are hired. They cannot
threaten you with your job for any reason and I remember when my
brother-in-law was sick he stayed home and the doctor came to his house
to check on him and every five years he got a free extra week of stress
leave to go to a spa and sit in mud baths and drink mineral water. They
know how to enjoy life in Europe, no wonder a German and Italian in my
neices dive class could not wait to get back to Europe. Here they want
you to work yourself to death while they pack the money away.

[spaghetti]

Thanks Spagetti and everyone works a 35 hour work week and gets six
weeks of vacation a year the first year they are hired. They cannot
threaten you with your job for any reason and I remember when my
brother-in-law was sick he stayed home and the doctor came to his house
to check on him and every five years he got a free extra week of stress
leave to go to a spa and sit in mud baths and drink mineral water. They
know how to enjoy life in Europe, no wonder a German and Italian in my
neices dive class could not wait to get back to Europe. Here they want
you to work yourself to death while they pack the money away.

In my country it's 40 hours (plus extras, paid +80%: nearly everyone works many extra hours to implement the basic pay) and 4 weeks vacation.
But anyway: taking United States and European Union as a whole, "The West", I say that "we the West" cannot win the global competition based on lower labour wages and conditions. We just can't win on that ground.
I read an interview with the Chairman of a Chinese car manufacturing company, who said: "We will beat american and european industry, because they only work 8 hours a day for 5 days a week, while the Chinese work 16 hours a day for 7 days a week".
Of course that Communist p.o.s. didn't mention that his workers are living as slaves under a bloody dictatorship (that's what t is), and if any of them dare to complain about labour conditions he'd found himself convicted in a Gulag before he could say "spring rolls". :mad:
Shall we challenge China on THAT ground?

[DIVERTOM]

I was in Italy for ten years from 1978-1988, my brother-in-law worked as
a computer programmer for the hospital and got the whole month of August
off plus one week for Christmas and one week for Easter, his wife was a
school teacher who got the same plus only had to work 20 years vice 30 for
retirement because she was given ten years for raising children. Try that
here and see what happens. I also lived in Guam and went on a dive trip to
Siapan where there was a Chinese work compound on American soil where
Chinese girls would sew American flags on Chinese clothing stating that it
was made in America. They worked 10 hour days everyday for minimum
wage plus had fees taken out of their pay for food and allowances. This
brought their pay down to $1 an hour and they begged to stay. Now I just
read a book called "After the Empire" by Emmanuel Todd a Frenchman who
first wrote a book about the collapse of the Soviet Union. He made an
interesting comment on how societies demand their standard of livings
change for the better after they change to the method of universal
education where everyone is afforded literacy over illiteracy. Funny this
concept started up there in the North around Boston and spread through
most of the planet. The Chinese will demand a better life style just like
the Russians passed from the illiterate Czar times to the universal educated
Communist who realized they were behind and changed to a social/capitalist
society without a revolution. Also I like how he points out how Socialist
societies tend not to wage war against each other. America is going
through a great change right now, the government's invisible hand is turning
into a directed fist with these bailouts. Reaganomics/Voodoo economics
AKA Yahoo economics as pinned by the G20 is no longer in favor as we
see how the government is taking control during our deflationary period.
The global economy is going through it's first birth pangs and it will be
interesting to see what America looks like after we work our way through
it. As populations become better informed and educated they will demand
a safer economic vehicle. Let's see if our Southern Republican Senators
have a new and better idea for the future or a dinosaur approach to a new
global economy.

[jackpine savage]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=david%20leonhardt%20%2473&st=cse

[Bill McIntyre]

Here is an article that gives on answer to the initial question.

Meet the GOP's wrecking crew
Why did a small group of Southern Republicans turn the auto bailout into a demolition derby? Introducing the senators who hate unions and love foreign cars.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/12/13/bailout/index.html?source=newsletter

[bgbill]

Here is an article that gives on answer to the initial question.

Meet the GOP's wrecking crew
Why did a small group of Southern Republicans turn the auto bailout into a demolition derby? Introducing the senators who hate unions and love foreign cars.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/12/13/bailout/index.html?source=newsletter

Bill,

You said in another post the only reason you buy american trucks is so you can pull your boat and the cars you buy are foreign.

Since you don't think the US Automakers build a good car, why should they be bailed out?

To me that is like bailing out a restaurant that has bad food because you are worried about the cook losing his job.

[DIVERTOM]

Thanks Bill for that article, I think that the unions, seeing how the leaders
of the American car industries where humiliated in Washington know this is
no laughing matter. Giving up their "Corporate Jets" and driving to D.C. for
a bailout has shown that they need a entire overhaul from top to bottom.
Why should labor be singled out for the problem with the car industry when
a lot of it had to do with quality. They laughed at Deming and he took his
ideas to Japan where they took it at heart.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming
It's easier to blame it on working people who produce something than
management who made the wrong decisions about gas mileage and quality
when profits mattered more.

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill,

You said in another post the only reason you buy american trucks is so you can pull your boat and the cars you buy are foreign.

Since you don't think the US Automakers build a good car, why should they be bailed out?




Because over a million jobs depend on it. You may just hate anyone who belongs to a union just on principle, but they have wives and kids who need support and education. Don't take out your hatred of unions on them.

And then they should be forced to start producing the cars that we want. Admittedly, I don't have a lot of confidence that a government car czar can run their business any better than they can, but we should leave the details to them, but demand results for our money. And while it might be a drop in the bucket, the symbolism would be good if they had to sell most of the corporate jets and cut executive salaries down to the same multiples of assembly line workers that exist in the Japanese industry.

[bgbill]

Because over a million jobs depend on it. You may just hate anyone who belongs to a union just on principle, but they have wives and kids who need support and education. Don't take out your hatred of unions on them.

And then they should be forced to start producing the cars that we want. Admittedly, I don't have a lot of confidence that a government car czar can run their business any better than they can, but we should leave the details to them, but demand results for our money. And while it might be a drop in the bucket, the symbolism would be good if they had to sell most of the corporate jets and cut executive salaries down to the same multiples of assembly line workers that exist in the Japanese industry.

Bill,

I have friends and family that are in Unions, I don't hate them.

The bail out will not work, they will continue to lose money and will keep coming back for more.

We have left the details of how they run their business, and they ran them into the ground, part of he problem is the UAW.

Cutting the salaries of the executives is definately a good idea and selling off their jets would help a little, but with the prices of used planes plummetting it wouldn't really do that much, but it is a start.

There are other major problems with the car makers and it is not just wages.

[DIVERTOM]

If anyone gets a chance read what Jim Rodgers has to say about how
screwed up things got in our country. To think that anyone who produces
something in our nation, that has lost a lot of production capabilities, is
somehow the reason for the problem is unbelievable. I have seen too many
extremely wealthy people who sit in offices and push paper. What does
insurance produce? We have half the nations physicians who want to
change jobs because of all the BS they have to put up with. Our farmers
are hurting because of the commodities crash. People who actually work
and produce should be praised, if you are doing something that is not
productive I would seriously think about changing jobs because after
this mess is over you will be flipping burghers. Ask anyone in real-estate
how they are doing.

[Marcus]

If anyone gets a chance read what Jim Rodgers has to say about how
screwed up things got in our country. To think that anyone who produces
something in our nation, that has lost a lot of production capabilities, is
somehow the reason for the problem is unbelievable. I have seen too many
extremely wealthy people who sit in offices and push paper. What does
insurance produce? We have half the nations physicians who want to
change jobs because of all the BS they have to put up with. Our farmers
are hurting because of the commodities crash. People who actually work
and produce should be praised, if you are doing something that is not
productive I would seriously think about changing jobs because after
this mess is over you will be flipping burghers. Ask anyone in real-estate
how they are doing.

I agree with you here. The farmers will be doing quite well in the coming years and anyone who actually produces something. Regardless, we can not reward bad business models, regardless of their size.
Some have the unrealistic altruistic idea that no one should experience hardship in this country. Propagating that idea leads to societal and economic breakdown. People work hard to avoid the pain...remove the pain and you remove the incentive. Remove the will to think that generates the rewards of their effort and you'll stop the economy.

[bgbill]

I agree with you here. The farmers will be doing quite well in the coming years and anyone who actually produces something. Regardless, we can not reward bad business models, regardless of their size.
Some have the unrealistic altruistic idea that no one should experience hardship in this country. Propagating that idea leads to societal and economic breakdown. People work hard to avoid the pain...remove the pain and you remove the incentive. Remove the will to think that generates the rewards of their effort and you'll stop the economy.

Farmers do pretty well, but we also give them huge subsidies which need to end.

The auto industry has made many many bad decisions over the years and the chickens are coming home to roost now.

I am a General Contractor and an A/C Contractor, in February of next year I will take and pass the State exam to become a Certified Plumbing Contractor as well, I provide both goods and services and what I do can not be shipped overseas, I am diversified enough that I will always have more than enough work to keep me busy..

I teach my kids to pick a career path that they will enjoy doing and also one that pays well and can't be farmed out overseas.

My youngest daughter want's to be a Pediatrician, hopefully that is a job that will still pay well in 20 years when she becomes one.

My son wants to be a computer programmer specializing in making video games, I explained to him it isn't as fun as he thinks it will be and those are jobs that can be shipped overseas.

I think he should learn a trade and I will teach him one, so he will always have that to fall back on.

[Marcus]

I think he should learn a trade and I will teach him one, so he will always have that to fall back on.

Careful...my dad taught me a trade. After shimmying down a few attics in the middle of a summer day, not enough room to turn around to crawl out, blow insulation, and feeling like a pin cushion for 3 days...I made up my mind to take up engineering. In retrospect, the skills he taught me has served me well and has been a nice fall back in the absence of an engineering job lately.