Gear Bags: Ideas and Help

[Armorkillshot]

If you have any questions, comments, or new ideas for bags give me a shout. If you are someone who can provide a realistic evaluation of a product, and are willing to write me some comments, get in touch with me since I sometimes have new pre-production products I need tested.

And, if you have any comments on what it takes to make and sell a spearfishing bag let me know. No one has yet convinced me that they can sell a significant quantity of any spearfishing specific bag. But I'm itching to make one!

If you truly cannot afford a gear bag (or know someone who is down on their luck-diver or not), and need a gear bag, let me know. I always have blems and repaired bags I can help a brother out with.

Dave (ArmorDaveC) Using Armor Kill Shot's log-on
Armor

[keyspearfisher]

I think maybe a hard case would be better for guns and shafts. But then it would end up being in the way on the boat. Because it would have to be about six feet long and couldn't collapse.

[Johnoly]

Don't ask me how, but it would be great to see either your #27 or #29 with wheels.

I like the mesh so the almost dry gear still can breath a little and dryout. The walk from where we park the truck to the dive boat can get a little long across the parking lot. Wheels would be big help. And the wheels have to handle salt water, not corrode and they can't make black marks on the boat floor. We have enough to clean on the boat after a day on the water.

Just my 2 cents.

[ArmorDaveC]

Armor makes about 40 different styles of bags and there are no ends to the ideas people have for bags. But there's not enough money to stock everything. So we look for bags that will sell at least 1000pc per year. The only steady sellers fall into about 4 categories (rolling backpacks or duffels, mesh backpacks and duffle bags, regulator bags, snorkel bags); the rest are generally not widely accepted. Some of the best bags (in my opinion) I've made haven't sold well. A good example is the dry boat backpack (#74) we sell; excellent dive bag and boat bag but no wheels. I used it on a MG trip this weekend and loved it. If it doesn't have wheels its a tough sell these days.

People even want wheels on mesh bags. I don't blame them for wanting to make their life a little easier but any extra hardware adds weight, more things to go wrong, hard things break easier than soft things, etc. As a manufacturer I'm trying to minimize any feature that will cause the bag to come back to me and my dealers (Armor has the lowest return rate in the industry; less than 1% over all). keep it mind that a zipper tab or torn mesh water bottle holder will make a whole bag come back for repair. Then consider that non-corrosive wheels and rivets are expensive and people baulk at the resulting higher prices. Right now Armor is having a tough sell against cheaper (and less expensive) brands that do not make bags with that kind of quality. In today’s "Life time warranty" big box mentality, the consumer only sees the convenience part of it; if it breaks or gets torn up by the airlines, they just send it back. I'm the one who gets stuck, so I make bags that minimize potential problems. By the way, it also hurts the dive retailer when people can always expect a replacement, and don't have to purchase new equipment now and then. But we are forced into it by the economic realities.

In my opinion some bags are better off carried. More than any other group I think spearfishermen would support this mentality. I wouldn't take a rolling bag on a boat and I'll bet the Captains thank me for that. Still, I'll probably make a rolling mesh bag anyway because the consumer wants it.

A spearfishing specific bag won't be widely purchased, hell, I'm too cheap to use them myself. So it needs to be functional and in expensive. The Riffe bag is nice but people complain that it is too expensive. To make a less expensive bag you have order a lot of them, and do things like use less padding, lighter weight material cloth and webbing, coil zippers with metal pullers that will not last long unless cared for carefully. Using Brass rivets and Stainless zippers, or PK Repairable plastic zippers runs up the costs.

At this point if I make a speargun bag I have to consider it strictly a branding or promotional bag to give away as tournament prizes because I'm not confident that a bag made like I want to make them would sell.

Dave

[OceanEd]

Dave:

I understand your thoughts about wheels but I am sure you have taken into consideration demographics. I am seeing a big increase in the number of older people that are getting into diving and they ALL want wheels on their bags

As the Baby Boomers age they will start spending more time (and money) on their leisure activities.

The surveys are now showing that a large percentage of the Boomers want to retire to a place with water. They also want to get a boat and play on/in the water. That will translate into more older divers. Any instructor or shop who recognizes this trend is going to grease up all those wheels because these folks do not want to carry their equipment. Just a fact of life.

I am lugging dive bags every day to and from classes, boats, and pools and I have to tell you, I love my wheels

[x-ring]

Some of the best web gear and backpacks in the world use coil zippers, just big ones mind you like YKK #10's. In my experinace I see these zippers as an asset and would always prefer them over nay metal or plastic tooth zipper. Just my $.02. I would also like wheels on a larg bag. But, big urathane weels would be my choice so i can roll it over very rough terrain, like jettys.

[ArmorDaveC]

"I understand your thoughts about wheels but I am sure you have taken into consideration demographics. I am seeing a big increase in the number of older people that are getting into diving and they ALL want wheels on their bags

As the Baby Boomers age they will start spending more time (and money) on their leisure activities. "



Good points, and I am a businessman so I'll make what will sell. Actually we make 6 different rolling bags now. I just think it becomes a little crazy when people can't carry a mesh bag to the boat.

[ArmorDaveC]

The coil style zippers are much cheaper and actually function easier when they are in good shape, but leave them uncleaned in the closet for a couple of months and you have an unmovable corroded mess. If I didn't have to live with warranty issues I'd use the coil zipper (#10 like you say) all the time. But most people don't take care of their bags. Coil zippers are also a total loss when they do go bad (coil is cut or stitching comes loose), whereas plastic block style zippers are normally still usable or repairable (with limitations). By the way, Armor uses either Stainless steel zipper sliders or plastic ones that can be repaired if the tab breaks. No one else uses these. YKK zippers cannot be repaired.

You're right on the wheels. Armors' Pullcart bag uses 3.5" rubber wheels that roll "off-surface" very well; are easily replaceable and all the other parts of the bag are 100% non-corrosive. But very few other bags, including Armor's, are like that. In all fairness, both Akona and XS Scuba use a good “off road” wheel on some of their bags also. Check for steel bearings on bags. If your wheels have a bearing it will likely be steel. You know what happens them if you don’t keep them cleaned and lubricated. Armor uses some wheels without bearings and some that have Teflon bearings and stainless axles. Very few, if any others, go to that expense, and believe me it drives up the cost of a bag. One Armor bag uses steel bearings at the moment (price points again) but we’re changing that last holdout by October.

[WreckHunter]

I can't speak to what everyone else wants but what I want is:
1) a large gear bag that will hold AT LEAST one entire set of gear easily.
2) mesh to allow the gear to dry/ drain.
3) rugged, sturdy and will last me for years.
4) wheels to make transport easier are a definite plus
5) ALL noncorrosive parts.
6) several various size pockets for accesories.
7) good looking.
8) reasonably priced.
9) decent warranty from a company that stands behind their quality product and takes pride in their work.

I know...... I want it all. what else is new?

[OceanEd]

Dave:

You are wrong in your thinking that people should be able to at least carry their bags to and from the boat. Yes, they should be able to do so. However, given the choice, they are paying not to do it by buying more expensive bags with wheels.

When I was running business seminars for dive shops one of the main points I kept hammering was that you sell on features and you support the features with facts when necessary. That is how people (especially older people with more disposable income) make their buying decisions.

A very important FEATURE is that with wheels you DON'T have to carry you bag, you can roll it. This makes it easier to get your gear around with less wear and tear on you. Some FACTS that support this feature would be teflon bearings and a SS axel for longevity, which gives your bags the edge over your competitors.

Remember, statistics show that the average diver in the US only dives about 6 to 10 times a year. They are not going to be dedicated, in shape, water people.

A final thought is that you want to target those divers with the most disposable income. These people are more likely to take dive travel trips and on these trips it is even more important that they have wheels.

I will now shut up about wheels.

I also stay away from metal zippers. Even if the metal does not end up corroding, the cloth that supports the zippers always ends up wicking salt into the zipper and the zipper stop at the end, creating problems.

[Reefrat]

Originally posted by WreckHunter
I can't speak to what everyone else wants but what I want is:
1) a large gear bag that will hold AT LEAST one entire set of gear easily.
2) mesh to allow the gear to dry/ drain.
3) rugged, sturdy and will last me for years.
4) wheels to make transport easier are a definite plus
5) ALL noncorrosive parts.
6) several various size pockets for accesories.
7) good looking.
8) reasonably priced.
9) decent warranty from a company that stands behind their quality product and takes pride in their work.

I know...... I want it all. what else is new?

All the above plus something that would withstand a stringer point or spear tips if some dummy in a hurry isnt paying attention to when loading his gear back up!:o

[ArmorDaveC]

Wreckhunter pretty much sums up what everyone wants, and all of that is hard to do on the cheap. I guess it depends on your definition of "reasonably priced". I would submit that Armors #75 Travel Adventure set *Sug retail at $299 (perhaps with a mesh boat bag) does it all. It has Ballistic 1682D nylon material, Teflon wheel bearings, stainless steel wheel axles, stainless steel #10 zipper sliders, brass rivets, and a lot more you can's see. It is a large rolling duffle bag with a backpack that clips on to the top of it, and the backpack is large enough for a a tropical set of gear (a great boat bag or other daily use bag). All of this with a Life time Warranty for everything except abuse.

[WreckHunter]

Sounds good. Is the handle/frame stainless, aluminum or steel. Are there mesh panels in the bag. If so why would I need a mesh boat bag also. Trying to avoid having to shift gear from bag to bag. Loooking for one bag that does it all. I have to agree with OceanEd on the metal zipper thing. I have seen some of your bags they look very well made. Now if you can just find a way to make them a little less expensive. I know I am asking alot but us demanding american consumers do that.;)

[BobK]

Originally posted by WreckHunter
I can't speak to what everyone else wants but what I want is:
1) a large gear bag that will hold AT LEAST one entire set of gear easily.
2) mesh to allow the gear to dry/ drain.
3) rugged, sturdy and will last me for years.
5) ALL noncorrosive parts.
8) reasonably priced.
9) decent warranty from a company that stands behind their quality product and takes pride in their work

I'd be thrilled with 1,2,3,5,8 and 9.

[fernandezh]

I use a milk crate. Easy to carry. Cheap, and you get the excitement of jumping out of a moving minivan and stealing it from the back of a 7-11 :D

I bet some of you actually think I am joking :D

[ArmorDaveC]

Originally posted by WreckHunter
Is the handle/frame stainless, aluminum or steel. Are there mesh panels in the bag. If so why would I need a mesh boat bag also. )

The #75 Travel Adventure set includes a large rolling duffel bag and a backpack that clips on. The roller is all non-corrosive except for some of the spring parts in the handle, and as far as I know, no-one makes a fully stainless handle system (this is one of the downsides to hanging all the bells and whistles on a bag).

The backpack on the other hand, which is what you'd use as a boat bag, IS 100% non-corrosive. It has a padded reg bag built in and will hold a set of tropical gear (with fins hooked to the outside). And, no you would not need a mesh bag if you used this as your boat bag but for a few bucks I would just because its simpler to see everything in a mesh bag.

[Aint Scared Me]

Man I use a coon a** dive bag - a plastic shrimp basket. No thrill of stealing one from a shrimp boat (see Hector's post) as you might get a white boot planted somewhere if you try ;)
Seriously I have a rolling case (stahl sac) to fly my gear around but once it is near a boat the shrimp basket works for me.

[Chad Carney]

Dave,

Thanks for trying to stem the tide of divers bringing "huge ass wheely bags" on boats! (Sorry you milk crate and bucket boys are almost as bad.) If it doesn't collapse down to next to nothing and get off the deck, go dive a beach or spring somewhere, but don't bring your "POS MEGA BAG" on my boat!

I've sold bags designed for spearfishermen for years and they have stood the test of time in design and durability...but nobody makes them anymore.

As I've gotten back into freediving in the last two years I've seen the need to separate my gear into "scuba" and "freedive" bags, and this has lightened and organized the load even more.

Dave,

I've got a bag to show you, and with your experience and a little tweeking for new ideas, I'll bet they will sell very well to the serious diver crowd. (Not the 5 dive a year cones!)

Chad

[Wet Spot]

Ditto on the milk crate, it's small, out of the way and you can throw your crap in when you get back on the boat to keep clutter down.

[kmoose]

Originally posted by Chad Carney
Dave,

Thanks for trying to stem the tide of divers bringing "huge ass wheely bags" on boats! (Sorry you milk crate and bucket boys are almost as bad.) If it doesn't collapse down to next to nothing and get off the deck, go dive a beach or spring somewhere, but don't bring your "POS MEGA BAG" on my boat!

I've sold bags designed for spearfishermen for years and they have stood the test of time in design and durability...but nobody makes them anymore.

As I've gotten back into freediving in the last two years I've seen the need to separate my gear into "scuba" and "freedive" bags, and this has lightened and organized the load even more.

Dave,

I've got a bag to show you, and with your experience and a little tweeking for new ideas, I'll bet they will sell very well to the serious diver crowd. (Not the 5 dive a year cones!)



Chad

Chad, the remake of that ol TS bag would be great! I'd by 3 tomarrow!

[ArmorDaveC]

Chad (and anyone else)
I'd love to see the bags you have. There have been, and are, other smarter bag makers than me out there, and if we can take and improve on a good concept I'm all for it. Anyone in the area is welcome to stop buy our business (Plant City) anytime. I'll show you the operation and we can look at ideas.
Dave

[junior]

Yo Chad, don't be all knockin' the bucket man:p It must have some value since I always find everybody elses crap in my bucket at the end of the day. Though I do agree that it can be a little cumbersome at times. Maybe a collapsable bucket...kinda like those old collapsable cups we used to go camping as kids. Hmmmmm.

[ArmorDaveC]

This is a concept bag by Armor, to replace our exisitng 36" dry duffel bag. The main part of the bag (dry duffel) is 36x14". With the mesh pocket extended it is 48x14".

This new style incorporates a 12" mesh dry pocket on the end of the bag (dry separation from the dry part of course). This dry pocket has a zipper that stores it up tight against the main bag when not in use. See photos below.

The main compartment is long enough to hold 36" fins.

The functional concept is to provide a place to store wet items. The bag can also be hung, mesh pocket down, as a place to air dry wet items, or hang in a tree when camping to store food items.

Retail would be around $79.95

Any comments?

[ArmorDaveC]

Photo 2

[ArmorDaveC]

Photo 3

[dlock]

I've owned one of your bags for 2 years now. I'm not sure which model it is. It has two separate zippered" pouches" on either end plus a smaller zippered pouch on the front. It's about 36" or so long and I keep just about two of everything with me when I dive. It holds A LOT of gear. Fantastic product, fantastic quality,just wanted to says thanx. If you guys can't carry your bag to the boat you had better hit the gym!

[kingfishr]

For everyday or truck to boat transport there is nothing better than a laundry basket. Now this obviously won't do for travel. But for 7 or 8 bucks they don't take up much room, are stackable and allow for equipment to dry.
My idea for the perfect bag would be one that would hold something such as a laundry basket, maybe something with some padding for travel. That way the bag stays in the truck and the basket takes the boat ride. No wet bags, zippers all corroaded etc... If my idea makes you a millionaire could you throw me few on the house??? I do need a gun bag if you deal in those and have a way I could check them out email me at randy55600@aol.com

[from the sea]

i was wondering about a bag that could hold 4 48" guns and a 60" gun and all the equitment