Goliath Grouper vs Coyote

[Ray Odor]

Try substituting the word Florida for Wyoming, Goliath for Coyote and fish for Sheep.

Wyoming Coyote Problem

The Sierra Club and the U.S. Forest Service were presenting an alternative to the Wyoming ranchers for controlling the coyote population.

It seems that after years of the ranchers using the tried and true method of shooting or trapping the predators, the TREE-HUGGERS had a "more humane" solution to this issue.

What they were proposing was for the animals to be captured alive. The males would then be castrated and let loose again.

Therefore the population would be controlled by this method. This was ACTUALLY proposed by the Sierra Club and the U. S. Forest Service.

All of the ranchers thought about this amazing idea for a couple of minutes. Finally, an old fellow in the back of the conference room stood up, tipped his hat back and said; "Son, I don't think you understand our problem here", "These coyotes ain't fkin' our sheep - they're eatin' 'em!"

I would have loved to have been there to hear the roar of laughter in that room.

Ray Odor Diving Service
2527 E.149th. Ave.,Lutz,FL33559
e- fishship@tampabay.rr.com
Ph.813-971-3368 Fax 813-364-6367
Web- www.spearfishing.cc

[grouperdude]

:lol:

[derekforreal]

hahah that's fuc&ing priceless.

[DonJeffVivo]

Lmfao!!!!!!!

[SgtSlaughter]

LMAO!!!:thumps:

[SafariTom]

I dont really think its that , funny .. and YES you can call me a tree hugger ... They coyotes are not the problem ... Its the non stop destruction of a native animals wild habitat... While there is a bit of a punch line, there is still the main issue ..

[HANGTIME NC]

Good one Ray!

[AlexF]

There have been several studies about coyotes and it has been found that when the land becomes deprived of the ruling coyotes the females start reproducing like crazy, so one option was actually to leave a neutered or non fertile coyote in the area so it would scare off newcomers.

Problems on fast reproducing vermit are not that easy to controll and hunting/poisoning them hasn't worked very well so far. Same thing is happening with feral pigs in Texas, 8 out of every 10 new pigs should be eliminated just to keep them under controll, and that isn't happening either.

What I would do is leave one "friendly" non reproducing coyote in the area and blast away any other that comes around.

[saltydog7seas]

LMAO Ray, that's a good one.

[DANM]

now that's funny, i don't care who you are:rofl:

[SlinginSteel]

This is just like the wild hog problem that we are having right now across FL. Everyone complains to save the animals until in mere hours your perfectly manicured St. Augistine looks like a bull dozer went across it. Ray, the post was priceless.... :thumps:

[SafariTom]

This is just like the wild hog problem that we are having right now across FL. Everyone complains to save the animals until in mere hours your perfectly manicured St. .... :thumps:

Who complains about saving wild feral hogs? AND IT nothing like the hog problem we have here. The hogs are an introduced species. They are feral and dont belong here. The coyotes are in their natural habitat and MAN is the feral species. Yet Man is so ignorant as to label th Coyote as the nuisance/problem animal. And our feral hogs are not the blam. They didnt come here by choice, they were brought here from Europe, by man ... and set loose by man... so MAN is the blame..

When dealing with wildlife ignorance cannot be tolerated. It leads to annihlation of entire species.

The story is a little funny though ...

[Ray Odor]

Awwwwww, Tom, I can't believe you shot that poor little Hog Fish with a nasty ol' piece of spear!
Heaven knows.
Ray

[SafariTom]

I did , and I ate it .. he tasted great with beer batter ... I am a tree hugger ... that doesnt mean I dont eat what I kill....

[HANGTIME NC]

Ray, I can't believe you, being of the age you are; falling for that.
Keep up the good work.

[Jaizzen]

[QUOTE=SafariTom;1070860]The coyotes are in their natural habitat and MAN is the feral species.

QUOTE]

I don't belive that coyotes are native to florida and they are spreading like wild fire.... Neither are pigs for that matter.... I belive that the pigs pose a bigger problem here in Florida than the coyotes. Neither are native to the area.

Shot 5 pigs this weekend and could have shot 65 very easily.

Jason

[Aaron Proffitt+]

Who complains about saving wild feral hogs? AND IT nothing like the hog problem we have here. The hogs are an introduced species. They are feral and dont belong here. The coyotes are in their natural habitat and MAN is the feral species. Yet Man is so ignorant as to label th Coyote as the nuisance/problem animal. And our feral hogs are not the blam. They didnt come here by choice, they were brought here from Europe, by man ... and set loose by man... so MAN is the blame..

When dealing with wildlife ignorance cannot be tolerated. It leads to annihlation of entire species.

The story is a little funny though ...

Do you really wanna get into this ?

A coyote isn't always a nuisance animal ...but it can damn sure become one.

That being said, Ray's analogy joke fits.

[Aaron Proffitt+]

Problems on fast reproducing vermit are not that easy to controll and hunting/poisoning them hasn't worked very well so far. Same thing is happening with feral pigs in Texas, 8 out of every 10 new pigs should be eliminated just to keep them under controll, and that isn't happening either.

What I would do is leave one "friendly" non reproducing coyote in the area and blast away any other that comes around.

To properly manage coyotes that have gotten out of control; you have to take a multi-directional approach. This includes aerial shooting,M-44's , denning operations, conventional trapping , and sight hounds. it's no small thing.


In the end , we could all just hope for parvo or mange to get 'em. Which it will once populations become dense enough. But a diseased population isn't exactly what you'd call a healthy one. So measures are taken to reduce densities once it reaches a certain point.

Hogs are a different matter altogether. They don't need to be managed ...they need to be slaughtered.

[SafariTom]

[QUOTE=SafariTom;1070860]The coyotes are in their natural habitat and MAN is the feral species.

QUOTE]

I don't belive that coyotes are native to florida and they are spreading like wild fire.... Neither are pigs for that matter.... I belive that the pigs pose a bigger problem here in Florida than the coyotes. Neither are native to the area.

Shot 5 pigs this weekend and could have shot 65 very easily.

Jason

Its not about what you believe ... Coyotes are native and have been in Florida for over 2 million years. Many pest companies and prokill agencies label them as non native and nuisance but with ignorance. It was here long before humans. Too many gun toters that have the "Kill Everything" mentality ... No animal is to blame. Pigs do bad for all our native eco systems but HUMANS are the reason why they are here.. So take them out but do it right. They are only trying to survive... The same as all living things..

Respect wildlife and all nature.. If you dont, you have no right taking from it.

[Aaron Proffitt+]

[QUOTE=Jaizzen;1072202]

Its not about what you believe ... Coyotes are native and have been in Florida for over 2 million years. Many pest companies and prokill agencies label them as non native and nuisance but with ignorance. It was here long before humans. Too many gun toters that have the "Kill Everything" mentality ... No animal is to blame. Pigs do bad for all our native eco systems but HUMANS are the reason why they are here.. So take them out but do it right. They are only trying to survive... The same as all living things..

Respect wildlife and all nature.. If you dont, you have no right taking from it.

No, they were not in Fl. 2 million years ago. Next you are going to show me a debatable ancestor of the coyote... in reality it's a type of wolf that is a closely related to the red wolf .

And they can be a nuisance, in as much as deer can be and like deer, have figured out to live amongst urban sprawl quite effectively.

[Jaizzen]

[QUOTE=Jaizzen;1072202]

Its not about what you believe ... Coyotes are native and have been in Florida for over 2 million years. Many pest companies and prokill agencies label them as non native and nuisance but with ignorance. It was here long before humans. Too many gun toters that have the "Kill Everything" mentality ... No animal is to blame. Pigs do bad for all our native eco systems but HUMANS are the reason why they are here.. So take them out but do it right. They are only trying to survive... The same as all living things..

Respect wildlife and all nature.. If you dont, you have no right taking from it.

I only belive what I've read anout them being invasive. I do know they eat anything and multiply rapidly. I don't believe that they are indigenous based on what I've read. I respect nature, I also know that in Florida they have no natural predators.. with the exception of one that gets too close to the waters edge and a gator gets him. Respecting wildlife was what I was taught a very young age... I was also taught how to shoot at a very young age. I usually eat what I kill, with the exception of the coyote, red ants that live in my yard, wasps, and maybe an armadillo that wont leave my yard alone. These are other examples of invasive species.... Not too sure how coyotes are different that ants.... with the exception of one being a mammal.

Not gonna debate it with you.. but if you don't belive they are rampant with little to no population control than you have bliders on...

As for man being the invasive species.... all they have to do is open up a season and provide a tell me how many I can take... ;)

[SafariTom]

[QUOTE=SafariTom;1072229]

No, they were not in Fl. 2 million years ago. Next you are going to show me a debatable ancestor of the coyote... in reality it's a type of wolf that is a closely related to the red wolf .

And they can be a nuisance, in as much as deer can be and like deer, have figured out to live amongst urban sprawl quite effectively.


Look... Are you educated? Have you studied the Florida Fossil record? I have ,... I was also a guest of the Carnivore Conference with Jeff Corwin. The Coyote was a lectured topic. It IS a Florida native. regardless of what you "think or believe. Im done .. there is NO DEBATE ...

[Jaizzen]

Here are a few of the sources of what I've read....
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/UW127

http://www.stpete.org/wildlife/florida_coyote.asp

http://www.highlandsswcd.org/everything/News%20from%20the%20Watershed/2009%20articles/Coyotes%20in%20Florida.pdf

http://fosbirds.org/FFN/PDFs/FFNv24n4p101-107Maehr.pdf


This one supports coyotes as non-invasive...
http://myfwc.com/docs/WildlifeHabitats/CoyoteWhitePaperFinal.pdf

However... this one from the FWC says just the opposite... funny how that works out FWC calling it both ways...

http://thewildlife.polkvoice.com/default.asp?item=2358528

Anyway... there are 1000's of Fu_k sticks out there that have written what they belive to be accurate... Either way, they run almost all other edible wild life off of a property including native species.... So... they get the .30-30 when I see them.

Regards...

[Aaron Proffitt+]

[QUOTE=Aaron Proffitt+;1072232]


Look... Are you educated? Have you studied the Florida Fossil record? I have ,... I was also a guest of the Carnivore Conference with Jeff Corwin. The Coyote was a lectured topic. It IS a Florida native. regardless of what you "think or believe. Im done .. there is NO DEBATE ...

Yes...I have studied them at length . Their are several different sub-species, but we'll let the taxonomist argue that point. And they are not native to the East Coast . Wolves yes, coyotes no. Calling a smallish wolf a coyote doesn't make it one.

You can look up and down the Eastern Seaboard . It ain't there.
Further, if you had studied , as you say you have, you would know a few other certainties.

Such as , coyotes need to be managed like any other game animal. At one time this was unneccessary due to the presence of wolves. Where wolves are the apex predators, coyotes have healthy numbers. However, it's really not practical to have roving bands of wolves. We don't have the food sources available to support them in most places in the lower 48 . The US F&WS is getting ready to learn this the hard way. Now, by and large , coyotes get a bad rap when it comes to livestock depredation . Generally, it comes down to either free-ranging domestic dogs or feral dogs. However, once it is established by reliable means that a bunch have gotten used to lunching on veal or mutton ; then animal damage control folks are needed . The point is not to eradicate every one in a given area but to ensure you get the culprits in that given territory. A licensed ADC operator can use methods that aren't generally available to most folks . Like the ones mentioned in my previous post . I am licensed ADC..it's my part-time biz.

Now, most people who spend a great time in the water have seen enough GG to be aware that they probably have numbers that would support a regulated harvest . I don't believe anyone is arguing for a relentless pursuit and eradication.
'Cept for maybe the rancher.

[IrieSpearo]

To properly manage coyotes that have gotten out of control; you have to take a multi-directional approach. This includes aerial shooting,M-44's , denning operations, conventional trapping , and sight hounds. it's no small thing.




Guess this would also work for humans too...they are out of control...maybe SafariTom can expand on this, but humans are an invasive species to Florida and the Florida Wildlife Commission has been very aware and are trying to implement several solutions to curb the problem. Up until now the FWC has been trapping and stalking the humans in their jurisdictions, but let them go after tagging them with an administrative device know as a “ticket”. However stricter measures are in the works, including area closures in which humans won’t be allowed to hunt and will be forcefully evacuated. The problem is not that the humans are ****ing the fish, but that they are eating them, but I think that sterilizing some humans caught in the area would, along with a multi-directional approach which would include aerial shooting, M-44's , denning operations, conventional trapping , and sight hounds would be a good beginning. Every time I go out I run into many of these humans, mostly bulls looking for game, always in packs of 2-6, ravaging the ocean and taking my fish…I did not come million of light years to have to compete with some sort of reasoning monkey for nourishment…

[Aaron Proffitt+]

Guess this would also work for humans too...they are out of control...maybe SafariTom can expand on this, but humans are an invasive species to Florida and the Florida Wildlife Commission has been very aware and are trying to implement several solutions to curb the problem. Up until now the FWC has been trapping and stalking the humans in their jurisdictions, but let them go after tagging them with an administrative device know as a “ticket”. However stricter measures are in the works, including area closures in which humans won’t be allowed to hunt and will be forcefully evacuated. The problem is not that the humans are ****ing the fish, but that they are eating them, but I think that sterilizing some humans caught in the area would, along with a multi-directional approach which would include aerial shooting, M-44's , denning operations, conventional trapping , and sight hounds would be a good beginning. Every time I go out I run into many of these humans, mostly bulls looking for game, always in packs of 2-6, ravaging the ocean and taking my fish…I did not come million of light years to have to compete with some sort of reasoning monkey for nourishment…

You're talking to the wrong person if you think I am going to argue . But until then ... well, we'll just have to rely on good old mother nature to thin us out. And we're getting a little to effective at beating that old bitch.

Peter Hathway Capstick was professional hunter in Africa who was in on multiple elephant cropping operations when the area could no longer support them. He hated it . After all , cropping and sport hunting are not even in the same ballpark. Anyway, Capstick used to say in his books that maybe we were culling the wrong species. Hard to argue with on some level.

[jadairiii]

....coyotes need to be managed like any other game animal. At one time this was unneccessary due to the presence of wolves. Where wolves are the apex predators, coyotes have healthy numbers......r.

Who killed off all the wolves? :D

Although the point of this thread was the issue of Goliath Grouper and the fallacy that they are the cause of the reduction of snapper, other groupers, lobster and the reason the Washington Redskins suck.

Face it, at least for the Redskins, they were winning Super Bowls when the Goliath Grouper stock was at an all time low. Hard to argue with Facts!

[SafariTom]

lol... Human population is the problem... there is no doubt ... but when will the govt step in and try to manage it? China took the lead ...

[Aaron Proffitt+]

Who killed off all the wolves? :D

Although the point of this thread was the issue of Goliath Grouper and the fallacy that they are the cause of the reduction of snapper, other groupers, lobster and the reason the Washington Redskins suck.

Face it, at least for the Redskins, they were winning Super Bowls when the Goliath Grouper stock was at an all time low. Hard to argue with Facts!

Ain't no question who's responsible for the wolves, John. But we can't unring that bell . Bringing 'em back without some kind of control measure will be disatrous as we have no real means of feeding them.

Good point about the Redskins.

[LunkerBuster]

the thing that gets me is this notion that where we are right now is somehow changed by how we got here...It is clear that human hands have done a lot to influence the populations and locations of certain animals, but that said, they still need to be managed so Humans and those species can co-exist. Aarons point and tom's are not mutually exclusive. indigenous or not, a population that is unchecked will destroy itself and other species in the process.

the closure of the GG fishery is annoying now that these beast are everywhere and stealing our catch from spear tip, but it was needed at one point when these fish were all but depleted.

I think the inital story is very funny, but there is some truth to Tom's statement. The need for managment is clear (in my eyes) but the hubris that assumes that man has no responsibility for the posiiton these animals find themselves in is simply wrong.

We share this planet, with other people and other species, we don't always play that the best way, but it remains true

[Aaron Proffitt+]

the thing that gets me is this notion that where we are right now is somehow changed by how we got here...It is clear that human hands have done a lot to influence the populations and locations of certain animals, but that said, they still need to be managed so Humans and those species can co-exist. Aarons point and tom's are not mutually exclusive. indigenous or not, a population that is unchecked will destroy itself and other species in the process.

the closure of the GG fishery is annoying now that these beast are everywhere and stealing our catch from spear tip, but it was needed at one point when these fish were all but depleted.

I think the inital story is very funny, but there is some truth to Tom's statement. The need for managment is clear (in my eyes) but the hubris that assumes that man has no responsibility for the posiiton these animals find themselves in is simply wrong.

We share this planet, with other people and other species, we don't always play that the best way, but it remains true

Why is it you always come along behind me and say the exact same thing that I just said; but it always sounds so much better coming from you ?

You should be an attorney or something .:D

[the STONER]

i think we all can agree we like seeing the gg but would also like to shoot one of the huge fish they should do it like the gator permits with a max size limet

[keezdiver]

see....i could care less about shooting one.

yeah it'd make a nice macho trophy...."grunt grunt...me kill big fish with spear...ugg ugg"

but what the hell am i gonna do with 200-300lbs of grouper meat?? i end up giving away 3/4 of my 20lb grouper. i just can't eat that much...and i refuse to freeze it and ruin it.


oh well.

[Aaron Proffitt+]

Quitting getting back on topic, Jeff....:)

ADC trap check from two days ago . I did actually relocate these two ...had their fur been prime that'd been another matter all together.

[chawk25]

see....i could care less about shooting one.

yeah it'd make a nice macho trophy...."grunt grunt...me kill big fish with spear...ugg ugg"

but what the hell am i gonna do with 200-300lbs of grouper meat?? i end up giving away 3/4 of my 20lb grouper. i just can't eat that much...and i refuse to freeze it and ruin it.


oh well.

Im sure your local boys and girls club/ high schools etc. would gladly accept the meat.

[Hank49]

see....i could care less about shooting one.

but what the hell am i gonna do with 200-300lbs of grouper meat?? i end up giving away 3/4 of my 20lb grouper. i just can't eat that much...and i refuse to freeze it and ruin it.


oh well.

You Florida boys must be really particular about your grouper. I had a 140 lber cut up in my freezer and ate it for about 2 months. I thought it was really good....every time. I gutted, gilled and iced it thoroughly as soon as I landed it on the boat.

[keezdiver]

i've just never liked how fish tastes after freezing.

i always bleed, gut and ice them down. and i basically vac-pack them (for the most part).

still has a funky taste....unless i put them in stew/chowder when still frozen.

[Adelito]

just made my day

[LunkerBuster]

Quitting getting back on topic, Jeff....:)

ADC trap check from two days ago . I did actually relocate these two ...had their fur been prime that'd been another matter all together.

Nice work...what areas are designated as relocation areas? low pop density of oter wolves or just far from farmers and ranchers?

[Aaron Proffitt+]

Nice work...what areas are designated as relocation areas? low pop density of oter wolves or just far from farmers and ranchers?

Yeah...must be no less than 10 miles from an occupied area , like you said low pop., and areas that have had wild pigs...hoping the coyotes kill the little ones.