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All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

View Poll Results: Which shaft would you preffer?
No rust 37 45.68%
more bending resistance 44 54.32%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-22-2015, 03:29 AM   #1
lordyaussie
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Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

It seems many people these days are concerned about their shafts rusting which I can't understand; I'd always preffer the greater bending resistance of spring carbon steel over 17-4PH stainless shafts and I embrace the rust that comes with this decision.
But I'd like to put it into perspective on diver's preferences around the world.
So
No rust 17-4PH shafts
or
lower bending spring carbon steel shafts?


Also I'd like to ask what exactly is the material used in making spring carbon steel shafts, or if I'm wrong that the stainless shafts are made from 17-4PH... maybe they are made from 17-7PH or something?

Edit: while we are on the subject can I ask what you think of Tungsten shafts which would allow much more mass for the same size, the properties look better than steel, would they really snap that easily? - http://www.hcstarck.com/tungsten_high_density_alloys


Thanks everyone,
Sam
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Old 06-22-2015, 05:30 AM   #2
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

I think it depends where you hunt fish ... some places the water salinity and heat simply do not make the high carbon shaft an option. Even a little rust on the shaft will cause way too much friction on the rail, which slows down your shaft. Another thing is that if you think a high carbon shaft will prevent a large fish from bending your shaft ... certainly not true. Even a 10mm shaft will get bent with a big fish, but of course a non stainless steel shaft will cost much less. If you don't want your shaft to bend and are not shooting into rocks etc.. a threaded shaft will last the lifetime of the gun if you use a slip tip..

17-4 PH ... IMHO the best metal there is for spearfishing whether it is trigger sears or shaft material. PH stands for Precipitatin Hardening. 17-4 is very strong, has excellent corrosion resistance and is relatively cheap.

Tungsten is a very interesting metal as it has almost double the density of normal steel. This means you can keep high mass on a shaft with minimal diameters. Smaller diameters mean less hydrodynamic drag and thus better performance. Tungsten is not brittle at all, it is actually quite soft and malleable ... not something I would want a shaft to be made of. I think many people confuse Tungsten with Tungsten Carbide ... which is totally different and is more likely a ceramic ... and yes that is brittle. Most likely a tungsten alloy fit for a spearshaft can be made, and the performance would be phenomenal ... but I don't see that happening in the near future because it would be prohibitively expensive and maybe more expensive than the gun itself. A cheap alternative would be to just use a 17-4 hollow rod and put another tungsten rod in it and weld it. I actually tried to make something like that, but found it was too much effort and sort of put it on the back burner. I do think it would make a huge difference with roller guns as the main advantage of roller guns is that they are smaller with the same power. The limiting factor of roller guns IMHO is that once you get to smaller shafts, you simply don't have the mass to get good performance, so no advantage.
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Old 06-22-2015, 05:33 AM   #3
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

i used to use rusty shafts in pipe guns, but the enclosed track guns seem to not only help removed the coating but also are actually kind of damaged by the rust sliding out of them
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Old 06-22-2015, 06:58 AM   #4
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

Spring steel for life. It's embarrassing they still make stainless shafts what a weak material. Just wish they had spring steel pneumatic shafts
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Old 06-22-2015, 09:12 AM   #5
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

17-4 , a 17-4 shaft will last until you loose it . Spring steel shafts are rust bombs , and will seed the mech with rust . Also on multi day trips where you don't get to wash your gear for a few days to a few weeks 17-4 shafts are maintenance free , spring steel shafts need to be oiled and babied and even your spare shaft on the boat will be rusty by the end of the trip .
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Old 06-22-2015, 09:39 AM   #6
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

No rust on my shafts. Minimal price difference between the two and 17-4 is all the strength most people need.
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Old 06-22-2015, 11:09 AM   #7
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

The way I see it is if you shoot a fish big enough to pretzel your shaft then it was worth it
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Old 06-22-2015, 11:50 AM   #8
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

I never wash my gear and haven't had a spring steel rust like you guys are saying. At most it's a surface rust that comes off after shooting it a couple times

Let's see, a shaft that has more mass and never bends or a soft steel that bends like a noodle on 20lb fish. I've never bent or retired s spring steel shafts. I only lose them.

Stainless shafts all either break at the flopper or Bend beyond recognition
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:23 PM   #9
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

Or spend the money on a UHT and have something that will never rust or bend. They are indestructible...
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:34 PM   #10
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrispearo View Post
I never wash my gear and haven't had a spring steel rust like you guys are saying. At most it's a surface rust that comes off after shooting it a couple times

Let's see, a shaft that has more mass and never bends or a soft steel that bends like a noodle on 20lb fish. I've never bent or retired s spring steel shafts. I only lose them.

Stainless shafts all either break at the flopper or Bend beyond recognition

Where do you get that spring steel has more mass than stainless steel? I always thought it was the other way around. Also what brand of crappy stainless steel shaft are you using? Never had a stainless steel shaft break at the flopper. If you have never bent a spring steel shaft then you have been lucky, a nice sized cobia or amberjack or even a midsized GT will easily bend even an 8mm spring steel shaft. All steel shafts will bend, that is just the way it is ... think of it like your car tires, you use them for a while and at some point when you damage them on curb or drive over something sharp or simply put a lot of mileage on them, you need to replace them.
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Old 06-22-2015, 05:00 PM   #11
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

should i put in my 2 cents
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Old 06-22-2015, 08:34 PM   #12
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

This doesn't quite fit what you asked, but I like 17-4 shafts in part because I'm always tinkering and they are so easy to work with. Easy to cut, drill, thread, etc. My shafts get shorter over time as I try new things, and then when they are too short to use in my normal guns, I make other stuff out of them.
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Old 06-22-2015, 09:37 PM   #13
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

I used Stainless shafts for a long time. Ones made for JBL, Biller, ones made by Ray Odor and B&B. I'm not sure what alloys were used, but once I started using the Rob Allen shafts, there was no going back.

I found them much tougher and stronger and when they got bent, I could often salvage them to some degree by bending them back. Here in Florida, even if we do not shoot really large fish, we have to deal with 300 lb plus jewfish and sharks grabbing the shaft. They often bend and destroy them (regardless of what they are made of) but the South african steel holds up much better to this abuse.

I now use MAKO shafts on all my guns and they seem to be the same - much better. Yeah the tips will rust after you bash them into rocks (and remove the protective coating) and sharpen them up, but the bodies of the shafts do not rust very fast. As long as you do not try to sand the coating off, they are well protected.

I rinse them in freshwater and then store them in a hot humid (un- air conditioned garage) and they hold up FINE.

As the tips get a little rusty, I have to take 60 or 90 seconds of work with a file to bring them back to shiny clean steel, but it is definitely worth it for me to have a stronger shaft.

If you only shoot small fish, never lose shafts to sharks or jewfish, then maybe it makes sense to use stainless shafts and try to use them for years, but my shafts get taken or pretzeled way before corrosion becomes an issue.


This video at 2:05 and later at 3:45 shows a jewfish bending the hell out of a long shaft. The stainless shafts I've used would be permanently deformed by that kind of abuse, but this shaft (south african steel) was bent over a knee and fixed enough to be used again - plus it had already been straightened from prior bending.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApeL8czRf8I
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Old 06-23-2015, 09:01 AM   #14
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

Spring Steel Shafts have their place. Small Diameter Long Shafts like 6.5mm and 7mm for bigger fish, i.e. Rail Guns. I just hate Rust. Spring Steel Shaft in an ET.. not a good situation. Nobody has come up with a good solution for Sharkfin Spring Steel Shafts. Slip Tip join is a nightmare. Rust Rust Rust..
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Old 06-23-2015, 09:36 AM   #15
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by "Yard-Sale Josh" View Post
Or spend the money on a UHT and have something that will never rust or bend. They are indestructible...
Let them rust! or not. its not to hard to keep your carbon steel shafts clean even on a 2 to 5 day trip with no fresh water wash everyday. A bit of 320 or higher sand paper cleans them up in 30 seconds and a bit of cooking oil after diving will keep them that way. I've even used a raw piece of bacon (lots of oil in the fat) and it make them slide out of enclosed track very easy. I have yet to snap a carbon steel shaft but have bent them. I Have had several stainless shafts snapped. Don't uses them unless I can't get anything else.
UHT=ultra high temperature? steel?
I have a few titanium shafts that are very hard to bend and don't seem to oxidize/rust. I can shoot them into the reef or rocks all day and they are as sharp at the end of the day as the beginning, The mass is less than steel 4.5 v 7.8 or so. I'm guessing people here would say you wont get the same penetration from a lower mass shaft? But it seems that your potential energy is limited to the energy in your bands. If you release the same energy with a lighter mass projecting the projectile faster do you not have the same energy at impact of a heavier shaft at a lower speed? The limitation might be in SpearQ8's terminal velocity of the shaft theory. The titanium seems pretty tough. Not that expensive compared to some big name brands stainless shafts.
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