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Old 10-06-2005, 04:42 PM   #61
PatMyGreen
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Re: Biscayne Natl. Park closed to spearing..permanently

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flechero 2
On the spear fishing subject, the data shown to us showed that the majority of the spearfishing violations were for undersized fish. It seems as though the perps were not up on their regs. The new permit requirements will clear this up. Bottom line is, if you don't know the rules, you don't get the permit. There will be much stiffer fines for violaters! We were promised that 80% of the money raised by the permit fee would go directly to the park for LAW ENFORCEMENT ONLY!
That in and of its self should take care of the "spearfishing problem". If they are having problems with dumb@$$ people that don't know the rules then education is the problem not the gear type. The above takes care of that, no further action is required.
In my opinion you will see less violations from people who have considerable investments in their hobby. Spearguns, scuba gear and boats are expensive, polespears and snorkels are not. Think about it. I'd bet the same people that are spearing these undersized fish are getting caught because they are standing on the reef to show them off to their dumbass friends. That is who these people are picturing when they think of spearfisherman.

How do we change that perception?
Show up and speak intelligently at the input session!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-08-2005, 12:56 PM   #62
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Thumbs up Re: Biscayne Natl. Park closed to spearing..permanently

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatMyGreen
That in and of its self should take care of the "spearfishing problem". If they are having problems with dumb@$$ people that don't know the rules then education is the problem not the gear type. The above takes care of that, no further action is required.
In my opinion you will see less violations from people who have considerable investments in their hobby. Spearguns, scuba gear and boats are expensive, polespears and snorkels are not. Think about it. I'd bet the same people that are spearing these undersized fish are getting caught because they are standing on the reef to show them off to their dumbass friends. That is who these people are picturing when they think of spearfisherman.

How do we change that perception?
Show up and speak intelligently at the input session!!!!!!!!
Beautifully put!
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Old 10-08-2005, 02:07 PM   #63
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Re: Biscayne Natl. Park closed to spearing..permanently

Guys, I dont live there but if there is anything the international spearfishing comunity can do, just let me know.
If we dont join, its easier for them .
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Old 10-11-2005, 09:06 AM   #64
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Re: Biscayne Natl. Park closed to spearing..permanently

Draft, need critique please. Thanks.

Dear Key Biscayne Working Group Committee: October 10, 2005

The Florida Skin Divers Association was established in 1952 and represents divers throughout the great state of Florida. We recently learned about the proposed Biscayne National Park Fishery Management Plan. We respect and appreciate your efforts to preserve this wonderful natural resource, and we want to support you. However, there are two provisions that we are adamantly opposed to. Those are the prohibition of spear-fishing using guns with triggers, and the prohibition of spear-fishing on scuba gear.

We realize that measures need to be taken to protect the resource. We also realize that most of the people that participated in development of these ideas do so in good faith. However, these proposals will do more damage to the concept of fairness and resource conservation than the good that they may do. They will alienate many good people. Divers are every bit as much a citizen as any other fisherman, and we are not willing to concede more ground to other interest groups. Where fishing is allowed, spearfishing must be allowed.

We want to be a supporter of the program to preserve these resources. We urge you, with the greatest sincerity, to set limits and controls that apply equally to everyone, not just which group seems to have the most influence or money. Require users to know how to protect the resource, rather than just give them a license. Spearfishermen are Police officers, Firemen, Military veterans, Nurses, Teachers, Doctors, and genuine responsible citizens, just like everyone else. Almost every spearfisherman was an angler first.

Although there are places where spearfishing has been unfairly restricted or eliminated while other, less resource friendly methods are permitted, we hope that you can recognize that this kind of singling out the smaller group practice is bad for every fisherman in the long run.

Here are some facts about spearfishing:

• It has the lowest unintended mortality of all fishing methods, bar none. The entire catch of spearfishing is less than a fraction of the unintended mortality of other fishing methods.
• It is the most selective of all fishing methods. No other fishing method can choose the right size of fish better than spearfishing. Make size limits that the fishery needs, and then enforce them, equally, for everybody.
• It has the lowest catch per unit effort of all gear types.
• It has the least environment consequences of any fishing method. Contact with live bottoms should be discouraged, and spearfishing in general has the least.
• Spearfishing does not require bait.
• Spearfishing does not leave any reef damaging materials behind.
• Spearfishermen are almost always anglers too. These people, on average, have the greatest respect for our precious natural resource.
• Spearfishing has been done for many years in many areas without negative consequences.

There are many more points that can be made. But we do not want to obscure our main point:

Make the rules apply to everyone, equally. Don’t throw us out, just because we seem to have less influence than some organization that hopes to have the resource all for themselves. Make the rules fair, give us equal access, and we will embrace and support a better Biscayne National Park.

Please do not hesitate to contact me for any reason.

Sincerely,

John Schmidt
President, Florida Skin Divers Association
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Old 10-11-2005, 09:33 AM   #65
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Re: Biscayne Natl. Park closed to spearing..permanently

Looks good here is a list I sent my email to, if you can come up with others please share them. Most of the workgroup doesn't really care what we have to say and are looking out for their own agendas, it is those who will be making the final decisions that we need to speak with. So try and title it "To whom it may concern:" and don't limit the letter to the workgroup.

jason

kenneth.haddad@fwc.state.fl.us
Commissioners@MyFWC.com

bisc_superintendent@nps.gov
rick_clark@nps.gov
todd_kellison@nps.gov
mark.robson@fwc.state.fl.us

Panel
jack.curlett@marinemax.com
lhadams2@aol.com
juan.comendeiro@us.fortis.com
mcufone@oceanconservancyfl.org
Patdorsy1@aol.com
krabthing@aol.com
info@ccaflorida.org
KLFish333@aol.com
carl@captharry.com
aml22350@aol.com
jlorenz@audubon.org
bonefish55@aol.com
fabulousfishing@aol.com
martin_moe@yahoo.com
mmunson@npca.org
sealife@terranova.net
joe.serafy@noaa.gov
dsuman@rsmas.miami.edu

Last edited by JAW; 10-11-2005 at 12:33 PM. Reason: another address
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Old 10-11-2005, 09:48 AM   #66
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Re: Biscayne Natl. Park closed to spearing..permanently

John thank you for taking the time to lend your support in the effort to protect the rights of spearos here and everywhere. Your letter is well written, polite and touches some very valid points re. the issue with the BNP fisheries management plan. Spearfishing is being targeted because of problems of public perception of the activity as well as suffering from lack of representation at the level where these decisions are made. We just finished a conference call with one of the members of the working group that drafted these proposals including the most current one. I notice that although most of the prejudices against spearfishing are held by folks who have not participated in the activity this does not exclude the possibility that some of the same negative images and misperceptions are perpetuated by our own. For anything to change as far as the FMP is concerned it is imperative that folks become involved in the public imput meetings re. the subject. We will stay abreast of any developments and scheduled meetings and post them here. In the interim letters such as yours should be forwarded to everyone on the working group list as well as people at the FWC. We as a group need to start to garner support for our sport at every level in the development of this plan. Thanks again for taking the steps necessary to defend our beloved pastime.
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Old 10-11-2005, 09:56 AM   #67
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Re: Biscayne Natl. Park closed to spearing..permanently

How did the conference call go?
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Old 10-11-2005, 09:59 AM   #68
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Thumbs up Re: Biscayne Natl. Park closed to spearing..permanently

Just wanted to echo Emil's previous post and also emphasis what Jason just listed. The emails and letters not only should go to members of the panel but to the ultimate desicion makers themselves...FWC people. Today's call was extremely enlightning as well as very alarming.

Continue with the letters and emails and let's get prepared to get organized towards this. The public meetings are going to be imperative and we'll post here on when they'll reconvene.

Thanks to all who called in today as well as the panel member who was willing to listen to us.

John,

The letter is great, make sure that everyone Jason listed receives one, not just the panel members.

Last edited by RJVeloso; 10-11-2005 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 10-11-2005, 11:41 AM   #69
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Re: Biscayne Natl. Park closed to spearing..permanently

I was somewhat encouraged by the conference call in that I got the feeling that we have become aware in time to present our side of the equation. Whether the the FWC agrees with us in the end remains to be seen, but I feel we will be able to present our side, nonetheless.

Help from an advocate group like CCA or FRA is suspect at this point and I believe its because they are dealing with the Gulf grouper issue and are facing a "must win" situation on that front. As such, we should do our best to educate ourselves on the issue, the mechanics of how these proposals get approved and how to properly oppose them. We also need to be VERY vigilant as far as the dates for these decision making meeting go, because personally going to these meeting will be our only shot at changing the momentum this proposal has already gained.

Here's a good website for the different meetings that took place, which led up to this proposal.

http://www.sfrpc.com/institute/bnpfmp.htm

I don't understand why Juan said this proposal has been around for more than six years if the first meeting on that website was dated Jan of 2004???

Also, maybe Emil can edit his original post to consolidate all of the informative links on the first post of this thread so that we don't have to search each page when tying to look up an issue.
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Old 10-11-2005, 12:34 PM   #70
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Re: Biscayne Natl. Park closed to spearing..permanently

here is another important person to email the executive director of fwc

kenneth.haddad@fwc.state.fl.us
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Old 10-11-2005, 12:49 PM   #71
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Re: Biscayne Natl. Park closed to spearing..permanently

Guys-
I really dropped the ball this AM. I was supposed to be on that conference call. I did not write it in my book and completely forgot about it. I am so very sorry.
I will get with RJ today. There are some outstanding arguments made in this thread. We will get those arguments presented to the FWC as well as the BNP committee.
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Old 10-11-2005, 01:00 PM   #72
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Re: Biscayne Natl. Park closed to spearing..permanently

I know those involved in the conference call this morning heard the opinion of the speaker when he was asked at what stage of the process we were in. His response is that the process is probably still 2-4yrs away from being finalized and implemented. However, I have just run into some information on a website that suggests this is not the case and that the plan is in it's final stages. There will still be public imput meetings (when and where is still unknown) but we really need to act on this as quickly as possible before we wake up to this being a done deal.
http://www.nps.gov/bisc/manage/fishe...gementplan.htm

This is from the national park service website and some of the highlights include:

Additionally, since the FMP is a cooperative plan developed with the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC), and since many of the actions in the FMP will require regulatory changes by the FWC, the plan must also be approved by the FWC Commissioners. On September 22, at a FWC Commission meeting in St. Petersburg, FWC Marine Fisheries Director Mark Robson presented the draft FMP to the Commissioners, noting that the draft FMP was built on the recommendations of the Working Group. The Commissioners voted unanimously to approve the FMP in concept, with the understanding that a final FMP would be brought before them for approval following upcoming public meetings and address of public comment.

What next? Pending approval of the draft FMP by the NPS national office, we will present the draft plan to the public in a series of public meetings and a public comment period, hopefully by November 2005. After addressing public comment, we will finalize the FMP within a period of several months.


BTW the web page says:The Working Group held their sixth and final meeting in October 2004, at which time they finalized their recommendations for the FMP.
I am not sure if speaking to the working group will change much as far as their proposal is concerned unless the group is asked to re-work the proposal by tyhose authorized to do so. That decision must probably come as a result of adressing public imput or at the request of the FWC. I would mention that the FKNMS and that SAC could also request that changes be made but I don't see them lending much of their support for our cause.
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Old 10-11-2005, 01:44 PM   #73
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Re: Biscayne Natl. Park closed to spearing..permanently

Interestingly enough here is an exerpt from the original FMP which states what the issue is and what the desired effect is:

Spearfishing impacts
Background:
Due to concerns associated with (1) spearfisher-associated reef damage, (2) potential behavioral effects on fishes that are targeted by spearfishers, and (3) the harvest of fish smaller than minimum regulatory size due to “underwater magnification”, the Park is concerned about the effects of spearfishing on Park resources.
In light of these concerns, spearfishing has been restricted in other nearby marine areas (Everglades National Park and parks under the jurisdiction of the Florida Division of Recreation and Parks, including John Pennekamp Coral Reef State Park, which is adjacent to Biscayne National Park). A statement of “desired future condition” with regards to spearfishing may be helpful in determining whether management actions are necessary. There is insufficient data to quantify current levels of spearfishing impacts on habitat and fish populations in the Park.

Potential desired future conditions:
A: Spearfishing impacts are maintained at or below current levels. Management actions would only be undertaken if increases in items 1 through 3 listed above (background section) were identified.
B: Spearfishing impacts are reduced below current levels. Management actions would be taken to reduce the effects of spearfishing on items 1 through 3 listed above.
C: Spearfishing impacts are eliminated. Management actions would be taken to eliminate the effects of spearfishing on 1 through 3 listed above.
D: Your suggested Desired Future Condition – indicate on comment form under #4 (Other) or under the “Other comments” section (back of comment form).

Potential Management Actions:
Alternatives would be accomplished through increased spearfisher education efforts on how to avoid spearfishing impacts, with efforts growing progressively greater from A (minor) to C (considerable). Alternative B would require limiting spearfishers to the use of non-compression-fired gear (e.g., Hawaiian slings), areas closed to spearfishing, or seasonal closures, and Alternative C would require the prohibition of spearfishing in Park waters.

Assessment Measure:
The success of management actions would be measured via
compliance with regulations (as measured in creel surveys and by law enforcement personnel), Park surveys and direct observations of resource impacts.

I don't know if everyone agrees on this but in light of this I am deducing that #1 BNP and the working group has no data (or very limited data) to support or deny that spearfishing has ANY impact on the resource (specifically the three points of concern listed in this document) #2 the current FMP has digressed from the original reason why this issue was ever discussed #3 It is either the "gut feeling" of the working group that spearfishing negatively inpacts the resources of the park or apathy torwards our user group that has led the working group to target spearfishing in the park #4 Question: If one the original concerns of the BNP was that spearos kill undersize fish how did this concern morph into the assumption that spearos taget and take a disproportionate number of large fish?

Any comments.....anyone want to expand on this?
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Last edited by apexpredator; 10-11-2005 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 10-11-2005, 04:06 PM   #74
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Re: Biscayne Natl. Park closed to spearing..permanently

This is following the same course as the Gray's reef spearfishing gear ban.
A few anti-spear zealots (in this case, only one) get something on the record and sneak it by the public.
We will be letting the FWC know what is happening and how we feel.
Just like the keys spearing tourney issue, we need to shed some light and show some attention.
Great job to you all for getting in front of this.
We should have a petition ready to go shortly. It will be posted here.
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Old 10-11-2005, 04:13 PM   #75
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Re: Biscayne Natl. Park closed to spearing..permanently

Denny, is there any validity to Gary Colecchio's post on the Florida Sportman Fishing Forum that this petition must be in hard Copy in order to be validated in the state of Florida? He posted a link on that thread as it relates to the Red Grouper issue... check it out, it's the fourth post from the top of this page
http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/ze...693425#4693425



Thanks for jumping in on our side

Last edited by Flechero 2; 10-11-2005 at 04:25 PM.
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