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All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

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Old 09-15-2021, 12:56 AM   #16
Kiwizach
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Re: Best Railgun/Pipe gun handle

I use tight twin primelime small id 14s on a pathos 120 with D1 handle, absolutely no trigger pull problems. I would second the opinion that something must be off with your D1 handle.
I also have the meandros b28 handle with same load, trigger pull is actually harder with this handle.

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Old 12-17-2021, 03:35 PM   #17
HurricaneBK
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Re: Best Railgun/Pipe gun handle

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Originally Posted by Kiwizach View Post
I use tight twin primelime small id 14s on a pathos 120 with D1 handle, absolutely no trigger pull problems. I would second the opinion that something must be off with your D1 handle.
I also have the meandros b28 handle with same load, trigger pull is actually harder with this handle.

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I'll third this. My 120cm D1 uses 2 14mm small ID as well, no issues at all.
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Old 01-19-2022, 02:33 AM   #18
spearq8
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Re: Best Railgun/Pipe gun handle

The D1 handle with plastic trigger is a much better choice than the D2 with SS trigger. The handle shape is better and can easily be shaped ... and most importantly is that the trigger is plastic ... so no galling or scratching of the sears.

Many people don't know this ... but you can improve the action of the D1 trigger quite a bit by disassembling the trigger and sanding and polishing off edges of the plastic and even polishing the SS shaft sear. I would say it gives a 30% to 40% better and slicker trigger pull. Very easy to do and well worth the effort! Personally I would never use the D2 with the default SS trigger. It just won't shoot accurate! Although Pathos "fixed" things by cutting a C shape into the sear to reduce the amount of real estate the sears have to drag through each other ... that just puts a band aid on the scratching problem ... the trigger break is just not consistent. If you shoot at a target in the pool you can actually see the groups "walk" on the target as the break off point keeps changing. That absolutely does not happen with the much cheaper plastic trigger of the D1.
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Old 01-20-2022, 05:01 PM   #19
Ron S
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Re: Best Railgun/Pipe gun handle

Hi Majd,
Hey what is your opinion on the current Meandros B-28 trigger? Particularly in terms of durability?
Thanks,
Ron.
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Old 01-20-2022, 06:22 PM   #20
pauliex
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Re: Best Railgun/Pipe gun handle

https://www.instagram.com/p/CYXCjcgs...dium=copy_link

Anyone else had a look at the new Ermes grip. 👌🏼
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Old 01-21-2022, 03:05 AM   #21
spearq8
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Re: Best Railgun/Pipe gun handle

I haven't tried the Meandros trigger so really can't give an opinion on that. But if it is a friction trigger then most likely it will suffer similar problems to other friction triggers. It is just that stainless steel rubbing against stainless steel is not good due to a phenomenon that happens with stainless steel. All stainless steel types (even Nitronic 60 or hardened 17-4 PH SS) will tend to "cold weld" ... this is where on the molecular level the SS which is rubbed on another SS part will start glueing on the other part. The higher the pressure the more this phenomenon happens. You can alleviate this by having one sear metal being harder than the other ... or maybe diamond coating or PVD coating one part and hoping the coating stays on for a while ... but I tried this and really causes other problems (like corrosion) and doesn't last long. I spent two years trying to figure out a solution and came up with three different solutions. One is to use a plastic trigger sear ... which can have durability issues. The other is to use a roller on one of the sears ... this totally reduces the "cold weld" issue and of course one more solution that will have to wait for another day. At the moment the best option is the roller ... but of course a roller solution has to be done correctly with correct much tighter tolerances than a normal friction trigger.

As for the Ermessub handle, I did help Mario with this project a while back. I did check out the very early beta versions and they were very good. Of course a lot of that had to do with the Ermessub DR trigger which is the default trigger. The latest versions of the DR trigger are just amazing as he now uses wire cutting instead of laser cutting (10x more precise). His boxes are also bent on a custom mold and the lateral pin holes are cut while the box is in the mold ... this gives perfect lateral pin placement and thus sear rotation is perfect. Also his sears AND line release are MIM ... so tolerances are incredible tight ... and with MIM you are able to round off edges ... so line release is really beautiful as is totally rounded and doesn't damage shooting line. Also the box is reinforced up front with a wedge pin ... so even if the wood swells in water ... it cannot squeeze the trigger box and hurt the action. Many many little improvements and changes made with the help of computer simulation (thank you Autodesk !!!) that make it easily the best trigger on earth ... by a long shot. Nothing even comes close!

I will see if I can post some pictures of handle and trigger that Ermessub made. I think he sold out of the first 2 batches he made and there is a supply issue now for everything due to COVID, so not sure what the status of stocking these is at the moment.
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Old 01-21-2022, 11:32 AM   #22
Ron S
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Re: Best Railgun/Pipe gun handle

I wasn’t aware of the galling problem until recently. I always thought American mechanisms like Riffe, Neptonics, etc., were stainless on stainless, but apparently not?
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Old 01-21-2022, 11:55 AM   #23
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Re: Best Railgun/Pipe gun handle

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I wasnít aware of the galling problem until recently. I always thought American mechanisms like Riffe, Neptonics, etc., were stainless on stainless, but apparently not?
They are. The galling problem occurs mostly in reverse mechanisms due to their geometry. Standard mechanisms life is much longer and you don't need rollers to overcome the problem.
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Old 01-21-2022, 03:51 PM   #24
popgun pete
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Re: Best Railgun/Pipe gun handle

The standard trigger mechanism usually mounts the spear tail in a socket created by the sear box that wraps most of the shaft circumference except for the spacing created by the width of the levers. Galling between the sear tooth and the spear shaft will not have any effect here because the shaft tail cannot deflect and the sear lever pivot pin being behind and just below the tooth, but in front of the backing projection, allows the tooth to roll down rapidly and get out of the spear tail’s way as it exits the sear box. Galling between the trigger and sear lever tail affects trigger pull due to increased friction on the sliding contact surfaces, hence the aim is to have long sear lever tails that reduce the force at the tail and this dictates the spacing of the pivot pins for the sear lever and trigger components.

Reverse trigger mechanisms don’t mount their spear tails in a socket, instead the spear tail sits under a short roof with nothing else around it. If the spear tail sticks on the sear tooth momentarily due to any roughness it can deflect slightly and then pop off the tooth and jump out of the sear box. This can also occur due to the sear lever pivot pin being further back from the sear tooth and behind or in line with the backing projection which means the sear lever drops through a smaller angle to let the spear tail go and can therefore hang onto it longer. Galling between the trigger and sear lever is less of a problem because the sear lever can have a very long tail to improve its gearing, the tail in this case projecting forwards rather than rearwards. The small angle drop of the sear lever makes these trigger mechanisms shallow even with large pivot pin spacing’s, however most of these mechanisms are frame lock, the trigger binds on a fixed pin in the housing, whereas most standard trigger mechanism are cam lock with the levers meshing and unable to turn against each other. Also while the sear tooth and backing projection form an oscillating yoke on a standard mechanism they don’t on the reverse trigger mechanism due to the placement of the pivot pin being located further back on the latter.

Last edited by popgun pete; 01-21-2022 at 04:43 PM. Reason: typo, therefor(e)
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Old 01-21-2022, 05:22 PM   #25
Ron S
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Re: Best Railgun/Pipe gun handle

Pete, Iím guessing youíre an engineer, because I didnít understand a quarter of what you saidÖ
I just looked into the front of the mechanism on my new B28, and it doesnít appear to have a roller. It has more of a traditional sear. Maybe I made a bad selection for a new hole gun. Itíll be interesting to see how long, if ever, before I have problems with this mechanism. Itís just a little 60cm gun, but because of where and how I hunt, itíll get the most use. On the plus side, itís a long way to to the coast, so I only hunt maybe a dozen days a year. Also, Iím only powering the gun with two, standard ID, 14mm bands, at around 280% stretch. May never become a problem. Weíll see!
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Old 01-22-2022, 05:03 PM   #26
popgun pete
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Re: Best Railgun/Pipe gun handle

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Originally Posted by Ron S View Post
Pete, I’m guessing you’re an engineer, because I didn’t understand a quarter of what you said…
I just looked into the front of the mechanism on my new B28, and it doesn’t appear to have a roller. It has more of a traditional sear. Maybe I made a bad selection for a new hole gun. It’ll be interesting to see how long, if ever, before I have problems with this mechanism. It’s just a little 60cm gun, but because of where and how I hunt, it’ll get the most use. On the plus side, it’s a long way to to the coast, so I only hunt maybe a dozen days a year. Also, I’m only powering the gun with two, standard ID, 14mm bands, at around 280% stretch. May never become a problem. We’ll see!
I note that the advert I looked at said the gun came in 2 versions, one with a standard and the other with the roller sear.
https://www.spearfishingproducts.com...34534590840987
We have all hunted for decades without roller sears or any rollers at all in the trigger mechanism, so is this really a problem? Shooting over 6 metres or 20 feet at a sitter, an usually unlikely proposition, you need a smooth release and a light non-grip twisting trigger pull, but skewering fish at around 12 feet flight distance there ain't no problem.
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Old 01-22-2022, 05:40 PM   #27
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Re: Best Railgun/Pipe gun handle

A picture is said to be worth a thousand words.
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Old 01-23-2022, 04:07 AM   #28
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Re: Best Railgun/Pipe gun handle

Of course the trigger galling issue I am talking about has to do with reverse mechanisms. The older standard mechanisms are able to use levers that act like "gears" and reduce the tension forces on the sears. The huge advantage with reverse mechanisms though is that they allow for a very high hand placement for the grip as they can be designed extremely shallow ... at the cost of dramatic increase in direct sear loadings. Being able to elevate the handle dramatically changes the performance profile of the speargun and also dramatically reduces the felt recoil. These advantages are substantial and if you look at all new speargun designs ... very hard to see a gun that doesn't follow these new design principles. The reason is very simple ... you are able to dramatically increase the performance of the gun while reducing the footprint of the gun and reducing the rubber loading required.

Does that mean you can't catch fish if you don't have all the new design??? Of course not ... I think I have mentioned this before, I have more fish caught with one Abbiller LTD 60" gun I have than all my other spearguns combined. If you are using a 60cm gun and shooting fish in a hole from one or two feet ... galling on the trigger will not make much of a difference. But the new gun designs (which include reverse triggers) allow for a totally different type of spearfishing. Your max range is increased from say 2.5 to 3 meters ... to around 7 or even 8 meters. Also the type of shots you go for are different ... instead of going for a high percentage center mass shot ... you aim for a stone shot. Plus the gun is much lighter and thus much easier to swim with and dive deep ... and the felt recoil is dramatically reduced. Again for some these advantages are meaningless, but for many they are important. I mean ... you can setup an 80cm to shoot more accurate and more powerful than an older designed 120cm gun. I personally find that to be a huge advantage.

Here are some photos I got for the new Ermessub handle and also you can see the new DR trigger and how MIM can use the advantage of 3D design and contouring. For those of you who have been on spearboard for a long time, you will immediately notice the ideas behind some of the design features that I beleive improve performance. I will say I am not a fan of all the accessories he adds on the handle but I guess in Europe they like that. Again ... I have only tried out the beta versions so not sure how the production run is. I can say that the beta version I did try were fantastic. He also has some pretty funky looking aluminium barrels ... and although they shot really well ... I wouldn't recommend them as they don't have any teflon or plastic inserts for the track. I just don't like the idea of a shaft going through a bare aluminium track. I did help him redesign it with a plastic insert track but I have no idea if he went with that. I did ask Mario if he had any stock for the handles but he sold out of his first two batches and is waiting on the next batch. I know in my construction field I am having huge problems with supply chain and I expect he is experiencing the same thing.





Last edited by spearq8; 01-23-2022 at 04:15 AM.
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Old 01-23-2022, 04:19 AM   #29
spearq8
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Re: Best Railgun/Pipe gun handle

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A picture is said to be worth a thousand words.

This looks like a copy of Mario's back roller ... which is patented! I do know the workings of this design and although it does feel like it reduce friction forces on the sears it was never able to prevent galling. If it had worked well I would never have pushed for a double roller design. At least it definetly was not enough in the older Ermessub versions of which this trigger has apparently copied. You would absolutely need a front roller for this to work well.
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Old 01-23-2022, 04:49 AM   #30
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Re: Best Railgun/Pipe gun handle

For anyone interested to see what has changed with the old Pathos D2 trigger and the new Pathos D2 trigger I have included a diagram. I had initially reversed engineered this trigger to see why it was causing problems ... so I already had the workigns of the trigger and was very easy to see what changed. It is interesting that Pathos always insisted that their old trigger had no problems whatsoever. But if you look at the two diagrams they obviously did realize there was a galling problem and decided to "fix" things by simply reducing the area of drag. This does seem to be a band aid fix as you do this at the cost of reduced safety and just hoping people will not notice the galling issue as much. Up to you to decide if it is a good idea or not ... what is certain is that the trigger has changed!

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