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2011 USOA National Championship Tavernier, FL Keys - August 3-4, 2011 The Under Water Society of America (USOA) has sanctioned the Miami Freedivers and the Longfins to host this prestigious event. |
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05-13-2011, 04:32 PM | #31 |
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011
So theres a lot of text here, what I gleaned from it is we need 2 things,
1: some points system to allow worlds competitive teams to compete in consecutive worlds or nationals competitions, Justin outlined a system that seemed pretty good to me, averaging their percentage points over the competitors last 2 nationals/worlds competitions 2. some monetary backing for worlds competitors, significant enough to sustain them between tourneys. Could this be accomplished by support from the USOA? I would be willing to add some to my USOA fees. Are there enough members that a $5 or $10 increase in club dues would support a team? And is there a way that sponsorship could be granted to "team USA" instead of individual people? I'm just a local kid, so please excuse my lack of knowledge on the finer points of all this
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05-13-2011, 09:41 PM | #32 |
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011
It seems that in order to assemble a multi-year team, you need a better national system of financial support. If the US can’t supply this kind of funding, then there seems to be less of a need to try to assemble a muti-year team (because who can swing THAT on their own)?
So which has to come first?.... the rule change or a significant increase in funding?. I guess Brian’s answer that: “the continuity of a multi-year team will improve sponsorship and funding opportunities” is relevant here. The real solution is to “build an organization”, but that is simple to say and very tough to execute. I wish you the best.
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05-13-2011, 10:25 PM | #33 | |
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011
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I agree with you! I believe you know my feelings towards the 2010 world team! I take my hat in front of you all! You and all the 2010 world team including your captain Brian must be very proud of your effort, results and individual improvement as competitors and divers! As you implied it is a chimera trying to win an international tournament, even less the worlds with a brand new team every year! On the first time around, one starts to understand the whole process by the time the tournament comes to an end. It takes a lot more than being a good diver to win one of those tournaments, which is probably the reason behind the fact that the winners are 99% of times divers with previous experiences. "Experience" can't be improvised; we must endure every burden on the way and do what it takes to learn and there is no second to a world tournament as a learning experience for a competitive spear fisherman. I believe the selection of a world team must be made thru a series of qualifying tournaments that leads to the nationals, to get at the end the best athletes, "The Winners" As in any other Team sport; there should be regular players and alternates, spear fishing should not be different, the team ought to be formed by several divers, in my opinion 6 or more, to select the top 3 for the meet, 1-2 days prior to the actual event and the reminders will be very needed support people anyway. After the meet such a selected group of divers should stay together as a team thru the period between worlds tournaments and should participate in other international competitions during same period of time as training experience. The selection of a team captain, should not be a democratic one; it should be a position at the federation level, like the national director, the person for the position must have knowledge, experience and the authority to chose the actual competitors out of a pre-selected team, based on performance during scouting and pre-tournament training process, physical condition, readiness, etc. As you mention before it is a very long process and a monumental project to get ready for the worlds, and a huge commitment for everyone involved; even more if every year we have to start from scratch! Again these are some of my humble ideas, I hope this discussion will give new lights to our sport in America! Best Regards Erick Last edited by SpearMax; 07-02-2011 at 08:55 AM. |
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05-13-2011, 11:28 PM | #34 |
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011
Erick, the debate and the participant comments are excellent. Keep it up as it is enlightening to all observers. I spoke by phone with Dennis about it earlier tonight and he certainly welcomes the input in advance of the Nationals. Thanks, Tony
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05-14-2011, 05:21 AM | #35 |
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011
I think it's worth mentioning that my aspirations and desire to potentially some day return to the worlds, does still exist, it just wasn't going to happen in 2012 with too much effort concerted on the worlds in 2010 and none on the nationals in 2010. I think it is unfortunate to see a team of 24 and 25 year old guys who competed in the 2010 worlds scrubbed from pursuing the worlds in 2012 for any reason and hopefully there are ways we can make it worth while for that not to happen in the future, if nothing else by making the worlds team a more well supported and sponsored team.
The most difficult thing for me to post recently was that "I personally had no desire to represent in 2012." The truth of the matter is, as it stands, for an outsider who has never been to the worlds it seems like you are going to bust you hump in two nationals, go to a world event to most likely take a beating from other better supported countries, and then if you do want to return, in that same year while you are trying to put everything into the worlds, you must somehow find the time to give the nationals enough attention to do very well there. If you elect as WE did to give all your time and energy to the worlds that year, then you will not return next time. That is the road we chose because our desire to do well in the worlds was put before all else. Early in 2010 Sean, John and myself were making plans to team up for the nationals in Arkansas. As our plans and strategies for the worlds unfolded, conflicting interests caused us to set aside plans for the nationals and focus on what would benefit us most for the worlds. In my heart I know, had the proposal I am talking about now been in place, I would be there at this year's nationals vying for a spot on the 2012 team. I lived in florida all winter and would have already stared prepping and doing my homework long ago and I think you might see Sean and John there with me, but that's not a position anyone from the 2010 team is in now. If you read everything I posted with all the emphasis on repeat competitors I think it speaks to the fact that all of us on the team wishes that we at least still had the chance to represent in 2012, but we stand by our decisions we made in 2010 in pursuit of doing well in the worlds. I couldn't help but harp on the importance of repeat competitors because of our circumstances, but taking a step back, the equally and perhaps more important premise here is that the world team would be able to focus everything on their world event without straining their chances to return based on their previously earned rankings. Again, the proposal is for US Team members to receive an average of their last two nationals percentile points in place of nationals scores coinciding with the year they compete in the worlds. If a US Team member choses to go to the nationals on the year of the worlds, whatever score they get, they get. Last edited by J.Allen; 05-14-2011 at 09:51 PM. |
05-14-2011, 08:16 AM | #36 |
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011
instead of re-inventing the wheel, can we just copy someone? you guys said Spain was one of the top competitors, so how do they select their teams? can we adopt such a system? or even modify it a little? and if not spain, how about italy? or anyone else?
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05-14-2011, 10:45 AM | #37 |
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011
Piece of cake!! Got about 500K to throw at it? I will gladly be full time captain for that one!
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05-14-2011, 12:41 PM | #38 |
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011
Dennis is right about the money issue with spain.
I don't think my idea would be reinventing the wheel, just filling in a gap in the way we do things at the top. There should be a system in place for the US team to maintain a fair representation of earned rank while they are competing in the worlds. Everything else, I think is good as is. Nationals determining rank and three competitors, one alternate, and volunteers and scouts on the world team. The captain being selected by that particular world team. Having 6 competitors, more qualifying events (deters involvement), and the captain being able to pick who competes I do not support. The top three are the top three. The alternate is there in case one of the competitors is physically unable to compete. In our situation at one point, 2/3 of the competitors agreed that the lowest scoring competitor on day one would sit day two so our secret weapon/med fish slaying alternate john modica could compete, but that decision didn't pass unanimously as a team, so it didn't happen and no one was resentful because that's how we made our decisions, as a team. I understand that the dynamics of every team is going to be different, but to me that's all the more reason the top three competitors should be the ones to compete, leaving nothing to question. Giving the captain power to select from 6 guys who will compete on tournament day promotes a competition of personal interests within a competition, and that's a dangerous premise. When the top three are the top three there is no dispute with who competes and the team can focus on their common goal. That's my take. Last edited by J.Allen; 05-14-2011 at 08:57 PM. |
05-15-2011, 12:13 AM | #39 |
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011
sorry dennis,
after 2 years of diving, full time financial backing might, realistically, be required I would love to know what jobs you guys have that you can take months off at a time to compete and then just waltz back in the door and continue work. like I said, I dont know how they do it, so im sorry if I ask a dumb question. do any other countries have systems that dont require governmental backing?
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05-15-2011, 09:41 AM | #40 | |
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011
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The top countries are France, Italy and Spain. Usually the hosting country is in the top as well, but this is because they can dedicate unlimited time to scouting and prep. No stupid questions Gabe, sorry if it sounded that way.
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05-15-2011, 12:44 PM | #41 |
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011
I have been getting personal messages and would ask not to have them on this matter. I think that its best for everybody to remain in the loop, so ideas and suggestions can continue to flow. That is why I hope the person I am responding to here will forgive me for posting a response I was going to send just him (edited for the board), but I think he brought up good points and if there is confusion on my stance I need to clarify it.
Well thanks for writing, I only just got this message because if you look at my post numbers, i don't really use the board much and it took me awhile to realize i had a message. Do you want me to be honest or sugar coat it? 12K, that's what I personally spent in Europe to do the worlds to the best of my ability. You are disillusioned if you think people don't have other priorities in life. Mine right now may include girls and chasing large fish at a fraction of the cost, but what do you expect coming from a 24 year old who elected to better his chances in the 2010 worlds by effectively and knowingly taking himself out of the 2012 worlds? "Also one little point, your last post said that IF a world team guy when to Nationals then his score would not be averaged but his actual score would be used... that seems like a bad idea to me. We WANT the world guys to show up, so as an incentive they should be able to use their average or their ACTUAL score, whichever is higher... otherwise why should he risk his average score?[/quote]" Valid point. I think there should be a way for the world team to focus on the worlds exclusively in the interest of doing their best without losing rank, and that is all I am trying to establish here. If they want the glory of doing well in another nationals that year, then that's great! The way I see it though, just like it has been before, if they make to the nationals, the score they get is what they got, but I'd be open and very interested in that discussion. To come up with the most agreed upon proposal, more people should give their take on that: (If the averaging part the proposal I support were in place, when world team members do show up to the nationals the year of the worlds- I say they get what they get like before, others ask: should they receive their average score if they do worse, and their present score if they do better? the main benefit being providing an incentive for the world team to attend nationals) *My feelings on this specifically are not strong at all either way. I would get behind either version of the proposal depending on which the community as a whole preferred. To clarify, the objective of my proposal has never been to make it easier for US Team members to make it again than those trying to make it for the first time. Incentives for people who are trying to get on the world team for the first time are also very important, particularly for attendance at the nationals. If the consensus is that the world team would need an incentive to attend nationals tacked onto the proposal, I'll back that, but more people would have to let it be known if that is what they want. My proposal lets the world team focus on the worlds while maintaining a rank which they respectively earned thereby giving them a chance to show up to the next nationals and prove they deserve to be in the worlds again. If they don't make it, someone else deserved it more. The basic thought here is that world team members should not need to divert their resources away from the worlds, and people who are trying to get on the worlds team for the first time should know they have a fair shot. That is why I also do not support a team captain being able to pick who competes in the worlds on tournament day. Competitors in the Nationals should know they are competing to earn their place. If they do so, it should be theirs. If they are good enough to earn a spot, I am more than happy at that point to see them fully backed and supported unquestioningly in their quest to represent us without having to personally compete amongst their teammates. Last edited by J.Allen; 05-16-2011 at 04:31 AM. |
05-16-2011, 04:33 AM | #42 |
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011
I should note that I edited my last post to more accurately state what the hell I was trying to say. I will delete this one later.
ps I'm tired of running with the ball, anyone else can have a crack at it if they want on this whole subject matter, and of course has my best regards if thier intentions are good for the sport, but i think I'm spent. For those of you who have, thanks for taking the time to hear me out. |
05-16-2011, 02:15 PM | #43 |
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011
12k+ nationals cost= alot of $$$$$
I hope this years nationals will open the door to alot of potential oppurtunities for spearfishing. The Team (I THINK ITS MORE APPROPRIATE THAN COMMITTEE), assembling the nationals is working very hard to produce an well rounded, highly Publicized event. In doing so, we also hope this will get the ball rolling to have a spain-like support system where we can get the U.S.A up there.
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05-17-2011, 09:07 AM | #44 | |
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011
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05-17-2011, 09:23 AM | #45 |
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011
Hate to interupt the trash talk.....Warsaw Grouper are listed as eligible species on the tournament fish list. It is my understanding that their harvest is now banned from the tournament area?
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