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All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

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Old 10-30-2014, 06:47 AM   #46
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Re: Hatch Custom Spearguns "Yacht Gun"

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Originally Posted by phil herranen View Post
ive got to strongly disagree with you there, i first played with the pulley design over 15 years ago there is only one way they work and thats if you lock out the pulley after loading so you dont have a reduction when firing . its you baby so you love it, so it can do no wrong and is awesome . but you will move on to more functional , user friendly designs in time . its a nice gun and very well executed , but it is what it is
I strongly respect your opinion and experience as a builder Phil, so I will get back to you when I am able to put both a single roller and this pulley gun in a contraption to measure loaded force on the shaft. While I'm certainly not unbiased about the gun, I'm not so blinded by excitement that I believe this is the new, best solution to everyone's spearing problems. The mechanical advantage of the pulleys will apply on the loading phase, cutting the force in half, but once it's fully loaded, the potential energy measured in lbs should be what will apply to the shaft when fired, less the effect of hysteresis.
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Originally Posted by "Yard-Sale Josh" View Post
go start killing those double digit mu that sit 20+ft out all day on the regular with this little sucker and I'll believe the hype, that uku wanted to die.
While that would be great, it's not the point of the gun. Even with an Oceanborne most people aren't going to make that shot successfully a large percentage of the time.
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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
Very nice fish but at that distance, even a 2 banded 120 gun with a 7mm @ 150cm shaft would go straight through. So if the idea is that this has more power or penetration than a classic banded gun, this would be the wrong example to show that. Best way to check for power is to use a chronograph (haven't been able to source one for underwater yet) or use a penetration based test using identical shafts at a pre-determined distance. I know that sounds boring but you really need to get as much control over static conditions as possible to get good data. It is possible that at close range that gun is not impressive, but due to perfect efficient shaft flight that is not hampered by recoil ... the velocity at 5 meters would be better than a normal banded gun due to less losses during shaft flight (though I seriously doubt it).
That's not the idea of the gun. At least it's not for me. I think everyone is getting the idea that I expect this to be a recoilless blue water cannon in a miniature package that tracks like a pipe gun and lands a new world record with every pull of the trigger.

I'm looking for a gun that can equal or exceed the power of a traditional 55" double banded gun, with minimal recoil, a clear sight picture, that tracks better than a traditional roller. I essentially want a more powerful, slimmer, inverted roller. So far the concept is performing better than expected.

Last edited by TVA; 10-30-2014 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 10-30-2014, 09:21 AM   #47
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Re: Hatch Custom Spearguns "Yacht Gun"

Wow, great video, looked like a good Uku. No shooting line? Like everyone, I like the line of sight. The lack of Recoil. The thing I don't like about Rollerguns in general is the complexity. The Pulley systems are interesting. I've seen a few versions. Some use pulleys at both ends and compound the draw. What would be most interesting to me is if this whole system could be compartmentalized so it wasn't even seen. It would seem there could be a way to put alllllll of that stuff within the closed stock of a gun. Like a Pneumatic or a Spring Gun, we're not looking at the guts.
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Old 10-30-2014, 03:16 PM   #48
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Re: Hatch Custom Spearguns "Yacht Gun"

Aloha guys,

First off, Thanks for the praise on my uku shot. More luck than anything else. We hadn't seen anything note worthy all dive and had decided to come back in. I decided to take one last drop while TVA went to retrieve his anchored float and there it was.

What I have here is my yacht gun on our first dive together. She only had 4 bands the day this footage was taken. They were at a lower stretch ratio than what TVA has on his. I'm shooting a 57" x 9/32" Mori.

I must take the blame on the poor shot placement on the second mu I harvested. The raw footage shows that I didn't use a smooth trigger pull and jerked the gun while firing.

Over the 2.5hr dive I managed to hit on every shot I took besides a long miss on a mu.

Thanks goes to Mike Hatcher for building us these awesome guns. He's the guy I filmed taking a shot if you're wondering.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k11pe73mhs...ation.mp4?dl=0

The video below was taken the same day as the above video. What makes it different than the rest of my shots is that I wanted to test the range on the gun with only the anchored bands loaded. As you can see, the target was roughly 5-6' off spear point and the shaft cleanly passed through. Not a bad setting for all those holed up invasive fish that just need to die!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rbjisigoav...20Gun.mp4?dl=0
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Old 10-30-2014, 03:58 PM   #49
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Re: Hatch Custom Spearguns "Yacht Gun"

Hey Folks.

So, in the real world, I'm a mechanical engineer, TVA's roommate, and this same discussion come up a number of times in a number of places and I took the time to go through some of the math. So, here's my answer:

First and foremost, Spearq8 and Tyson Brown, you folks are doing a decent job in pointing out what we're dealing with, but you've missed a bit that I'll have to clear up.

The most important bit where people are getting confused is with the tricky concept of impulse. The technical definition of impulse is the integral of force with respect to time, which means if force is constant, it's just force times time. However, in this situation, the time it takes the shaft to leave the gun will not be the same if the final velocity is the same. Now, WORK is actually a bit more useful in the comparison, because then we don't have to deal with time, because work is the integral of Force with respect to distance, or if force is constant, force times distance. This greatly simplifies our analysis, because we can look directly at kinetic energy.

Ok, now that we have that set up, we can look at two different situations very simply. We have gun A and gun B. Both guns have exactly the same mass, and are exactly the same length. Both fire the EXACT SAME SPEAR (with no line, because who wants to switch lines and all that nonsense). When they fire that spear, their final velocity is identical. It is identical, because we've spent years tuning the two guns to shoot at identical velocities, right. Because we have that kind of time. Maybe we live in the folk's basement and just yell about meatloaf whenever we're hungry, but that's not important right now.

Now, Gun A is a conventional 2 band gun with bands stretched exactly enough to produce velocity X, and lets say it pulls for 2/3 of the barrel. Gun B is an inverted roller with the bands completely on the back side of the gun, for simplicity's sake, and it pulls for the entire length of the tube. We can all agree that this setup is possible, yes? These guns fire a spear identically, but the way they do it is different.

Now here's a really important bit: What is recoil? I'll define recoil as the acceleration of the gun backward into your hand that must be countered by a force from your hand. If you want to argue that definition, I'll listen, but I think it's pretty fair. Now, thanks to F = MA, we know that that acceleration is equal to the sum of the forces on the gun divided by the mass of the gun (A = F/M). Since both guns have the same mass, we can now be sure that recoil is affected ONLY by the sum of the forces on the guns. So, since the force of the bands contracting isn't constant over the pull, then the most important part we can assume is the peak force. Do we agree on this? So, if we prove that the peak force on Gun A is greater than Gun B, then we also prove that the recoil on Gun A is greater than on Gun B. Agreed?

So, what are the forces on the guns? They are the force of the acceleration of the shaft, the force of the acceleration of the bands, and the force coming through your hand as you try to stop the recoil. On Gun A, the bands accelerate in the same direction as the shaft, so the sign is positive. On Gun B, the bands accelerate in the opposite direction, so it's negative.

Now, this means the bands do account for some percentage of the total force in each situation, but how much? This is actually where my analysis proved my initial gut instinct wrong. Well it turns out, proportional to the mass ratio between the bands and the shaft as well the percent elongation. This is a first order response in both situations, meaning there are no exponents. If I double one parameter, the outcome doubles. If the bands are half the mass of the shaft and the center of mass of the bands moves exactly half the distance the center of mass of the shaft in the same time, then the MAXIMUM force these bands can produce is 1/4 the force the shaft produces. This is higher than I initially believed it to be, which caused me to actually go a bit more into detail than I wanted to, and I actually looked into the integrals, leaving rigid body kinesthetics behind and drifting into the massive wasteland of math beyond it. What i found is that simple rigid body kinesthetics actually DO apply for this situation, even though it isn't a rigid body. Since the force increases linearly with stretch below 500% elongation, we actually CAN just track the center of mass and use the average force and end up with the the proper work. This is ONLY true if the bands are ENTIRELY on one side of the gun or the other. Otherwise, it gets much more complicated. So, traditional rollers where the band makes a turn changes some things and some integrals with respect to time or distance get uglier, but it can still be instantaneously approximated fairly simply. I also weighed a couple shafts and bands, and found that a mass ratio of .5 is pretty reasonable. So, this is a swing of +/- 25% of the kick from the spear, assuming the peak force of the bands is the same.

So, part one rules that the force of the recoil of the conventional gun will be 125% the kick of the spear leaving the gun, and the roller gun will kick with 75% of the force of the spear, proven by only a sum of the forces. That's a far more significant cut than I initially believed, but we're not done.

Now we have to compare the acceleration of the spear, since they're not accelerating identically. Since we know the work is identical, and we can model work as Force x Distance, and we know that Distance A is .6667 of Distance B, since the conventional gun, Gun A, only pulls for 2/3 of the length of the barrel, while Gun B pulls for the full length. This leaves us with the following

>Wa = Wb
>Fa*Da = Fb*Db
>Da = .6667*Db
>Fa*(.6667*Db) = Fb*Db; Solve this for Fb
>.6667*Fa = Fb; Distances cancel, leaving only the forces and the ratio between distances.

Thus, the average force in Gun B only has to be 2/3 the average force in gun A. Since in both cases, these forces increase linearly with respect to distance, we also know that this ratio is true of peak force at the initial position. This is also the force required to load it.

So, we now have two ratios. Both are first order responses, so we can actually combine them. Let's give the force of the acceleration of the spear from Gun A an arbitrary value of 100 N. This gives Gun A a total kick of 125 newtons, since we know that the bands add 25% of the force of the spear in this situation.

Now, for Gun B, the force of the spear is only 66.7, because it's 2/3 of the force in Gun A as we proved a second ago. Then, we have to subtract the force of the bands, because they're going in the opposite direction. Now, we only get to take out 25% of 66.7, not 100, because that's the force on THIS spear. So, we end up with a final kick of 50.025 N for the EXACT SAME SPEAR moving with the EXACT SAME VELOCITY. Using this arrangement cuts the kick by almost exactly 60%. This is all physics here, no guesswork.

So, what else does this tell us? Well, it tells us that the higher our mass ratio is, the more our bands are adding to our kick. It tells use that kick increases with mass of the spear or mass of the bands. It tells us that if the bands make any corners, such as a standard roller gun, this will take away from the counteracting force of the bands if they're all on the back. So, a conventional roller with about the same amount of band on the top and the bottom when the bands are stretched will have more kick than if the bands are all on the bottom. However, since the top part will be accelerating much faster than the bottom, you can treat this as two separate bands initially, with the one on the back moving half the speed of the one on the front. This will end up with the bands adding a kick of 12.5% the kick of the shaft alone. You can just trust me on that, I'm not going through it any more detailed.

Now, just in case we don't all agree that the work done by both guns is equal, let's look at some math, just so no one comes back with "nuh uh".

Terms
>M = Mass (units kg)
>V = Velocity (units m/s)
>D = Distance (units m)
>KE = Kinetic Energy (units kg*m^2/S^2 or Joules)

>KE = 1/2MV^2
>W = Change in KE
>Delta KE = 1/2M2*V2^2 - 1/2M1*V1^2
>M1 = M2; The spear doesn't lose any mass.
>V1 = 0; It wasn't moving at first
>Delta KE = 1/2M*V2^2; Second term goes to zero, since V1 is zero.

Therefore, we know that work done on the spear is a function of ONLY final velocity. So, it doesn't matter how the spear go there, the net work done on it is exactly the same if the final velocity is the same. We already proved that the force required to make this work is directly proportional to the distance over which it acts.

Now, this is getting really long, but here's a bit about this gun in particular.

Pulleys are force multipliers. So, the tension in the line going around the pulley is EXACTLY half the tension in the band pulling on the pulley itself. All our previous work just showed that the force required for a roller is 2/3 the force of a conventional gun, but now I'm saying that the pulley halves the force coming from the band, so, what's the advantage? Now the force we need in the bands is twice what it would be, or 4/3 of the conventional. This should be bad. However, the other thing the pulley does is cut the travel of the band in half when compared to the line, so the acceleration of the COM of the bands goes down to a quarter of that of the spear. Additionally, our mass ratio is probably going to have to go up, but let's pretend it doesn't. So, acceleration cut in half, mass ratio stays the same at .5, so now the bands are only producing 1/8th the force of the shaft, but since they're going the other way, this is worse than the roller we looked at earlier. If we set this gun up to match the initial conditions of Gun A and B, this one is actually going to kick 58.36 N. So what's the advantage? Well, we can pretension this one and all the sudden the slop of our force over the distance of the pull is half the slope that it would be on Gun B, even if we did an identical percent pretension. Since our travel is so much shorter, we can stay in that high stretch range longer with much shorter bands, which keeps our mass ratio between band and shaft down, while making our force closer to constant. Without this pretension, there is actually a disadvantage to having the pulley. So, essentially, whether the pulleys are good or bad all comes down to setup and tuning.

Anyway, this is really long and I can imagine it being a bit of a boring read, but the info is there. If there's any part of it that you'd like to argue with, please let me know. Thanks for reading.
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Old 10-30-2014, 04:40 PM   #50
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Re: Hatch Custom Spearguns "Yacht Gun"

It was a good read, Fearless. Thank you for taking the time to clear things up.

Now that you have that covered, here is the next step for this configuration. This will give you something to chew on for a bit.

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Old 10-30-2014, 04:44 PM   #51
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Re: Hatch Custom Spearguns "Yacht Gun"

Nice shot! But that fish wanted to be killed.

Now one more video loading that beauty in the sea.

I mean, the one at the first hawaiian video.
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Old 10-30-2014, 04:47 PM   #52
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Re: Hatch Custom Spearguns "Yacht Gun"

I like that it moves the center of mass of your gun up, which will reduce the moment causing your muzzle to jump, but I think the band sections added on the top side aren't worth it. It might be more comfortable to load, but you're going to dirty up your force profile and thus your acceleration. Rather than smooth linear acceleration, you'll end up with greater jerk forces (derivative of acceleration).

Also, it ruins the clean sight line. I'm sure you have your reasons, and I'd be interested to hear them, but aside from making it more comfortable to load, adding those bands makes it worse.

Edit: Guess I didn't reply straight to you, SpearoTastic. Haven't done much on this forum, haven't got the hang of it.
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Old 10-30-2014, 05:55 PM   #53
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Re: Hatch Custom Spearguns "Yacht Gun"

Rob, thank you for the videos! Good stuff.

++++++++++++++

Fearless, the guy who developed these roller pipe guns, David Roi, has run the gamut of pulley configurations. In this instance, he starts with the preload set at 100% elongation, and uses at 21mm band plus two 16mm bands on the bottom and a 21mm band on top. I think the stretch ratio for the 21mm bands is 4.5:1 (band length + 350% elongation) and the stretch ratio for the 16mm bands is 4:1 (band length + 300% elongation).

Ease of loading is definitely the primary reason for going this route. Also, the little top band gets to add its potential energy into the system.

Yes, the top band does affect the sight picture, but not any more so than a conventional speargun.

I am not sure the rate of acceleration will be interrupted as the main band group will keep the top band elongated until they are arrested, then the top band is allowed to contract and deliver its energy. Also the mass of the top band isn't all that great.

Here is a pic of the band components used in a 100cm pipe gun. You can see how relatively small the top band is.

Click image for larger version

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And, Fearless, welcome to Spearboard!
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Old 10-30-2014, 06:31 PM   #54
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Re: Hatch Custom Spearguns "Yacht Gun"

I understand that it doesn't obscure the line any more than a conventional gun, but that's the only real reason that I actually like it better than a conventional gun. I'm not really that into all the fancy guns that can shoot a fish's eye from 100 yards away, preferring to go for the simpler guns. It's just my personal preference that I'd rather come back with one fish that I worked hard for than 10 fish that I just got in the neighborhood of. Just my preference, and it's why the last dive I went on, I only used my new Hawaiian sling and came back skunked.

As for the band on top not contracting until the end, that's not really the way springs or elastic bands work. You end up with essentially two springs, one with a mechanical advantage over the other, so, unless they're tuned precisely, the band on top will either snap back slower or faster than the bands below, causing a strange disturbance in your force profile. Additionally, unless there is a line running through the center of the bands, then you are limiting your final force to the force it takes to get the top bands to the desired % elongation. Otherwise, the more you load up your pulleys, the more you'll stretch out the top, eventually leaving the linear elastic zone and entering where it goes quadratic. This will cause rapid degeneration of the bands, plus even weirder force profiles.

Additionally, there is no advantage to the added pull from the top bands, because if you want more force, there's no reason you can't just load up your pulley side more. it also adds significant mass to the part of the gun that is accelerating most, and depending how the end is done, cutting your pull length by at least a couple inches. All of this is bad.

I'm sure you COULD set this up where it would be plenty nice to shoot, but I think it is categorically worse than a setup without the bands except for a little bit more comfort loading it up.

If I wanted to make it easier to load up. I would put my main band at whatever pretension i don't mind loading up, then cut the additional bands to be much harder to load up, since they will be more comfortable. These bands should be cut so after the gun is fired, they're still stretched to about 200% or so. I'd try to get the entire gun's firing done between 200% and 350% elongation. You should be able to easily tune your band sizes and lengths to do that and put any amount of force you want on there. This will allow your force profile to be as smooth and flat as possible, which will allow the lowest peak force for a given shaft speed.

Edit: Did it again. I guess that button down on the bottom of your post doesn't actually do anything except take me to the bottom of the page.
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Old 10-30-2014, 09:02 PM   #55
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Re: Hatch Custom Spearguns "Yacht Gun"

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While that would be great, it's not the point of the gun. Even with an Oceanborne most people aren't going to make that shot successfully a large percentage of the time..

If i can carry a carbon pipe that weighs less and shoots dimes at 18ft off the tip why would I switch to this if it doesn't give me the same accuracy at further range
Less recoil? Is that all I'm getting with all those bands and lines everywhere? If so just why...
I want to see you guys compare a vacuum barrel pneumatic to all these new rollers...
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Old 10-30-2014, 10:13 PM   #56
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Re: Hatch Custom Spearguns "Yacht Gun"

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Originally Posted by FearlessLeader View Post
Hey Folks.

So, in the real world, I'm a mechanical engineer, TVA's roommate.....
Thanks for the writeup! I have to look through it some more. I probably have a couple questions, but it may be a while till I can get around to asking them.

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Old 10-30-2014, 10:22 PM   #57
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Re: Hatch Custom Spearguns "Yacht Gun"

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I strongly respect your opinion and experience as a builder Phil, so I will get back to you when I am able to put both a single roller and this pulley gun in a contraption to measure loaded force on the shaft. While I'm certainly not unbiased about the gun, I'm not so blinded by excitement that I believe this is the new, best solution to everyone's spearing problems. The mechanical advantage of the pulleys will apply on the loading phase, cutting the force in half, but once it's fully loaded, the potential energy measured in lbs should be what will apply to the shaft when fired, less the effect of hysteresis.

.

no amount of math or bench test will really tell you how a speargun will work in the water in real conditions .

the only way to truly test a gun is to get in the water and test it for accuracy and power at range , and testing penetration power in a consistent density target .
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Old 10-30-2014, 10:32 PM   #58
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Re: Hatch Custom Spearguns "Yacht Gun"

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no amount of math or bench test will really tell you how a speargun will work in the water in real conditions .

the only way to truly test a gun is to get in the water and test it for accuracy and power at range , and testing penetration power in a consistent density target .
While I understand the sentiment, literally thousands of industries have proven it wrong. Math, models, and bench tests allow for improvements that would not otherwise come about. The math is never actually wrong. If the real world performance isn't matching the physics, it's because you are using inaccurate assumptions or a logically unsound model.

It's one thing to say I don't trust the modeler, but the math is always there. Spearguns are actually pretty simple systems when it comes down to it, so predictions are pretty accurate. Test after test has shown that the models are pretty good, provided you gather good data.
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Old 10-30-2014, 10:57 PM   #59
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Re: Hatch Custom Spearguns "Yacht Gun"

A little tweaking here and there with bands and shafts to get a better shooting gun ok. This monstrosity of bands, pulleys, cord, and shackles on a pea shooter I just dont understand it all. Like said before a properly set up SIMPLE 2 band gun can do better. First its a short gun so can only shoot short distances, second, just the noise alone all those things make negates everybit of PERCEIVED advantage, band flutter and the harmonics and waves it puts out again adds to the negation of said perceived advantage. While some people think its cool, Im not drinking the koolaid and say BS to all this. Now thats just my opinion and please don't stop because of my cynical attitude.
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Old 10-30-2014, 11:21 PM   #60
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Re: Hatch Custom Spearguns "Yacht Gun"

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Originally Posted by "Yard-Sale Josh" View Post
If i can carry a carbon pipe that weighs less and shoots dimes at 18ft off the tip why would I switch to this if it doesn't give me the same accuracy at further range
Less recoil? Is that all I'm getting with all those bands and lines everywhere? If so just why...
I want to see you guys compare a vacuum barrel pneumatic to all these new rollers...
Maybe you are just that superb of a shot that you don't need anything other than a well set up rail gun to hunt elusive fish taking 18 foot shots on the regular. Classic guns are called classic for a reason. They kill fish and I own enough that I'd never say otherwise. I'd invite you to come to Hawaii and show me how many mu you can stone at that distance. I am quite confident that both you and I would be more accurate with this gun, while attaining similar or better performance than say my Pathos 120. Everyone is still massively overstating the real world complexity of the bands and wishbone line. Once it's set, you load it like any other gun. It offers more potential failure points, sure, but actual use of the speargun is no more complicated whatsoever.
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A little tweaking here and there with bands and shafts to get a better shooting gun ok. This monstrosity of bands, pulleys, cord, and shackles on a pea shooter I just dont understand it all. Like said before a properly set up SIMPLE 2 band gun can do better. First its a short gun so can only shoot short distances, second, just the noise alone all those things make negates everybit of PERCEIVED advantage, band flutter and the harmonics and waves it puts out again adds to the negation of said perceived advantage. While some people think its cool, Im not drinking the koolaid and say BS to all this. Now thats just my opinion and please don't stop because of my cynical attitude.
Monstrosity and pea shooter are off the mark, but you're always welcome to your opinion Woody. Hyperbole is totally your thing. This gun, particularly in small sizes, is already proven to VASTLY outperform a similar rail gun. Are 18 foot shots short to you? If so I'd be very impressed to see what a long shot is in your book. The bands contracting in a linear fashion make less noise and cavitation than a standard gun and they don't flutter when loaded. I understand where you're coming from in the mindset that if a simple setup can get the job done, why try something more complicated? It's a fair question, but I'm not trying to replace the classic gun solution. We're just pushing the envelope of design here.
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