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All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

View Poll Results: Which shaft would you preffer?
No rust 37 45.68%
more bending resistance 44 54.32%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-23-2015, 10:05 AM   #16
lordyaussie
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

Very great replies guys Loved what you wrote about tungsten shafts spearq8. Sorry If I dont directly reply to everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoelman View Post
should i put in my 2 cents
Yes John post away man; I saw that arguement on that other thread, funny stuff world is boring with arguments erupting from time to time on spearboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebacore View Post
A bit of 320 or higher sand paper cleans them up in 30 seconds and a .....
UHT=ultra high temperature? steel?
I have a few titanium shafts
If you release the same energy with a lighter mass projecting the projectile faster do you not have the same energy at impact of a heavier shaft at a lower speed? The limitation might be in SpearQ8's terminal velocity of the shaft theory.
Pankrationist is going to come on any moment now and recommend you not to sand paper your shaft because it will remove what ever protective coating is left. So I saved him the effort

Everyone, you gotta tell us more about these dank UHT shafts
Titanium shafts!?!! yewwww where did you buy those?

Yes I am also a beliver in the terminal velocity of conventional band guns, in the end the spear can only go as fast as the rubbers, yes rubbers pulling a spear of 1mmdia will go faster but I suspect there is not too much difference.
I am a believer that a shafts power is defined by kinetic energy ke=0.5*m*v^2

So is it spring stainless 17-4 or 17-7 because I was reading a thread http://www.spearfishing.com.au/sf-fo...-17-4PH-a-sham
and this guy said that the spring stainless was from "1700 to 1800 MPa"
and then I look on the data sheets and only 17-7 can achieve that???
17-4 (1450MPa)
17-7 (1800MPa)
I know its yield stength we should be looking at, but the original thread was talking ultimiate tensile strength so I've in that direction.
http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_p...data_sheet.pdf
http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_p...data_sheet.pdf

Also can anyone give us a bit more detail on what exactly spring carbon steel is? Particularly the heat treatment. Do I just get a bit of music wire, work it then heat it up to cherry red and dunk in oil, then galvanize it?

Thanks heaps guys,
Keep this great discussion going

Sam
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Old 06-23-2015, 10:36 AM   #17
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

South African Steel for flopper shafts if you are shooting big fish. Spring stainless bends way to easy.

Spring stainless if you are shooting a sliptip shaft. Not worth using a carbon shaft for a sliptip. The slide ring chews away the coating. If you shoot small fish 15lbs or less, Spring stainless is ok for flopper or you can enjoy replacing or bending your shaft back to shape.
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Old 06-23-2015, 11:13 AM   #18
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordyaussie View Post
Very great replies guys Loved what you wrote about tungsten shafts spearq8. Sorry If I dont directly reply to everyone.


Yes John post away man; I saw that arguement on that other thread, funny stuff world is boring with arguments erupting from time to time on spearboard



Pankrationist is going to come on any moment now and recommend you not to sand paper your shaft because it will remove what ever protective coating is left. So I saved him the effort

Everyone, you gotta tell us more about these dank UHT shafts
Titanium shafts!?!! yewwww where did you buy those?

Yes I am also a beliver in the terminal velocity of conventional band guns, in the end the spear can only go as fast as the rubbers, yes rubbers pulling a spear of 1mmdia will go faster but I suspect there is not too much difference.
I am a believer that a shafts power is defined by kinetic energy ke=0.5*m*v^2

So is it spring stainless 17-4 or 17-7 because I was reading a thread http://www.spearfishing.com.au/sf-fo...-17-4PH-a-sham
and this guy said that the spring stainless was from "1700 to 1800 MPa"
and then I look on the data sheets and only 17-7 can achieve that???
17-4 (1450MPa)
17-7 (1800MPa)
I know its yield stength we should be looking at, but the original thread was talking ultimiate tensile strength so I've in that direction.
http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_p...data_sheet.pdf
http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_p...data_sheet.pdf

Also can anyone give us a bit more detail on what exactly spring carbon steel is? Particularly the heat treatment. Do I just get a bit of music wire, work it then heat it up to cherry red and dunk in oil, then galvanize it?

Thanks heaps guys,
Keep this great discussion going

Sam
Yes you will eliminate what protective coating that is left with sand paper. You don't have to sand the area that still has good coating. But the coating will only last so long. Then its sand paper or rust.
I got the titanium shafts here in Indonesia. Bought one from a local gun builder friend of mine who told me they came from South Africa. May have come through Andre spearguns. Another local gun builder told me he got them from Surabaya. East Java. Met a gentlemen from Malaysia a few months back who ran a mill. He said he could produce titanium shafts if there was enough volume. I guess with the lower mass they may not be the best for penetration at some point. Speed kills but if you can only go so fast speed can only kill so much. If you get my meaning.
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Old 06-23-2015, 11:30 AM   #19
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

A light high speed shaft will slow faster than a slower heavier shaft due to drag
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Old 06-23-2015, 11:43 AM   #20
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

There is a world of different stainless alloys that have great fatigue (bending) properties.
300 Series (special heat treat)
400 Series (special heat treat)
17-4PH
15-5PH
13-8PH
There is also a world of stainless super alloys that the space industry and some oil and gas companies use to aid with stress corrosion cracking.
Nitronic 32(18-2), 33(18-3), 40 and 60
Custom 450 & 455
PH15-7
17-7PH
Ti Alloys
Hastelloy, Incoloy, Waspaloy (High Nick content, super hard)

Heat Treat: There is enough knowledge out there in regards to heat treat and the process that you should be able to look up a material and follow a process for results. Research CASE Hardening (Hard outside, soft/malleable inside).

Coatings: Most carbon steel shafts are black oxide coated, which is a corrosion inhibitor not a resistant coating. Galvanized is more resistant that oxide, but not good to ingest. A polished (mirror or better) surface can provide just as good as corrosion resistance as the above coatings, but it will also rust.

UHT: This is a proprietary material that has been tested and validated over the years. Yes it's expensive, but what do you think alternative shaft material cost with these properties...?

BTW, I have no opinion because I use both, they shoot straight and it is all I have in my quiver.
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Old 06-23-2015, 12:50 PM   #21
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

Many different grades of titanium, but it is a great metal and with recent discoveries in making titanium powder cheaply, it might become as common as aluminium. The grade you want for shafts is something similar to Mission knives grade



Only problem you have now is that you have half the mass of a stainless steel shaft. Since we are all dreaming ... solution ... we get Mission to make us hollow rods with their super titanium alloy and have it filled with tungsten inside!

To see a video of how tough this knife is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNoGucy0tws
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Old 06-23-2015, 01:45 PM   #22
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBD View Post

UHT: This is a proprietary material that has been tested and validated over the years. Yes it's expensive, but what do you think alternative shaft material cost with these properties...?
They are worth the cost, the only way the shaft isn't going to be usable is if the fish breaks your shooting line and swims off with it...
I was just talking to someone the other day who dives Hawaii, I guess he shot a big Ulua (GT) in a house and didn't come close to stoning it. Shaft came back straight despite its best efforts to break the shaft...
When dean first got the material I tested it years back, absolutely could not get them to bend...
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Old 06-23-2015, 02:39 PM   #23
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ny_er View Post
i used to use rusty shafts in pipe guns, but the enclosed track guns seem to not only help removed the coating but also are actually kind of damaged by the rust sliding out of them
I use only spring steel shaft on my sea sniper enclosed track. I spearfishing everytime in south pacific island. I spearfishing a lot : about 100 day per year !!! I coat my arrow with food spray grease and rust I have no problem !!! There are only the tip which can slightly rusty after a shock with the rocks !
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Old 06-24-2015, 06:00 AM   #24
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by "Yard-Sale Josh" View Post
They are worth the cost, the only way the shaft isn't going to be usable is if the fish breaks your shooting line and swims off with it...
I was just talking to someone the other day who dives Hawaii, I guess he shot a big Ulua (GT) in a house and didn't come close to stoning it. Shaft came back straight despite its best efforts to break the shaft...
When dean first got the material I tested it years back, absolutely could not get them to bend...
I have had two UHT, one was 7,5 and did not bend until a bullshark grabbed a fish, I bent it back and I still use it, it needs a new flopper actually right now

then I also had a nice 8mm uht and the first fish I shot with it got eaten by a cuda and it cut the shooting line, and I lost it within 10 minutes of first using it

havn't brought myself to buying another one yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piero View Post
I use only spring steel shaft on my sea sniper enclosed track. I spearfishing everytime in south pacific island. I spearfishing a lot : about 100 day per year !!! I coat my arrow with food spray grease and rust I have no problem !!! There are only the tip which can slightly rusty after a shock with the rocks !

I might have to try them again, the coatings look better then they used to be, the old ones, I would shoot a few fish around rocks and sand and the coating would be gone right away, then the whole thing would be rust within a month or so.

I dive around the same amount as you, certain areas of the ocean have more salt in them

I live in a yellow area

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Old 06-24-2015, 09:47 AM   #25
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

The problem with Carbon Steel Shafts is when you put sharkfins on them. There is no way to do this yet which does not involve using a metal other than Carbon Steel for the Shark Fin. As such you have dissimilar metals and when you go to do the Zinc Oxide plating coat, you wind up getting Contact problems due to the Dissimilar metals. Sometimes it's bad, sometimes it's worse. This is why you will have some guys on here singing the praise of Carbon Steel shafts never rusting or only rusting at the tip when they are using Pins or Cut shafts and guys using Sharkfin shafts may have their entire shaft turn into a Rust Bomb after 1-2 uses. For me, I can't help but think that someone may leave a Sharkfin Carbon Steel Shaft in their mech overnight, or for a week, etc.. and this is not good. This is how you can introduce corrosion and pitting into the Mech Sears.
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Old 06-24-2015, 02:04 PM   #26
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

Duplex stainless steels (developed specifically for the offshore oil industry), depending upon the mix can be 2 to 10 times stronger than many of the more common grades of stainless and much more resistant to crevice corrosion cracking. I assume they are hardenable, as I suspect that is the material Gannett Dive Co. is using for their mechanisms. Possibly what the UHT shafts are made of.

Titanium is so pricy as the majority of the Earth's ore supply comes from the middle of nowhere in Russia. When the US miltary wanted to source massive amounts to use in planes, they had to set up many small dummy companies spread across the US to source it in smaller individual ammounts so not to raise suspicions with the Russians.

The spring steel shafts used in the arbalet guns of the 50's and 60's were electro galvanized which is a "self-healing" coating, that if scratched, can bridge over the scratch and continue to provide corrosion protection. However galvanized surfaces are not safe for food contact. The newer coatings for spring steel shafts are likely a baked on ceramic based coating. Much harder and durable, but onced compromized offer no continuing protection to the underlying steel.

Last edited by manoa matt; 06-24-2015 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 06-24-2015, 04:33 PM   #27
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

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The problem with Carbon Steel Shafts is when you put sharkfins on them. There is no way to do this yet which does not involve using a metal other than Carbon Steel for the Shark Fin. As such you have dissimilar metals and when you go to do the Zinc Oxide plating coat, you wind up getting Contact problems due to the Dissimilar metals. Sometimes it's bad, sometimes it's worse. This is why you will have some guys on here singing the praise of Carbon Steel shafts never rusting or only rusting at the tip when they are using Pins or Cut shafts and guys using Sharkfin shafts may have their entire shaft turn into a Rust Bomb after 1-2 uses. For me, I can't help but think that someone may leave a Sharkfin Carbon Steel Shaft in their mech overnight, or for a week, etc.. and this is not good. This is how you can introduce corrosion and pitting into the Mech Sears.
That has NOT been my experience. I have been using shark fin shafts on my ETR Mako guns for like 3-4 years now and have NEVER had a rust problem at the shark fin tab. Again, I store the gun in a garage in south Florida which is an area that has a very high corrosion potential. I also leave the shaft in the gun when stored.
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Old 06-24-2015, 05:48 PM   #28
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

You been lucky. I've gone through a lot of Carbon Steel Shafts and when you get a rust bomb.. the shaft almost explodes into rust. I'm not making this stuff up. This info comes from the guys making the Carbon Steel Shafts, like Mr. Allen himself (who doesn't make Sharkfin Shafts for this very reason.)
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Old 06-24-2015, 05:52 PM   #29
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Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

17-4PH is the way to go. I'v made my own shafts, I'v used Mako shafts, now I'm using JBL shafts and riffe shafts.
Mako shafts are strong and I haven't had a problem with the shark fins rusting; but the tip and the notch rust. The notch rusted so bad it started to bind my trigger mech (neptonics reef mech).
The shafts I used to make were 17-4ph and fairly easy to drill and work with; but I'm able to get JBL shafts with shark fins for only a few dollars more then I cost me to make them after time and the pain in the ass. Riffe shafts are nice and do the job but are a little pricey for me.

If fish are bending shafts then try and get a better shot angle.
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Old 06-24-2015, 05:54 PM   #30
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Re: Do you care if your shaft rusts? Or would you rather more bending resistance?

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You been lucky. I've gone through a lot of Carbon Steel Shafts and when you get a rust bomb.. the shaft almost explodes into rust. I'm not making this stuff up. This info comes from the guys making the Carbon Steel Shafts, like Mr. Allen himself (who doesn't make Sharkfin Shafts for this very reason.)
I've had some defective shafts with respect to coating.. a bad batch of notched shafts from Rob Allen (which occurred years ago and were all addressed via a warranty exchange by the dealer).. My information is from years of direct use, not second hand information from someone who does not make that type of shaft.

Corrosion at the fins has never been an issue for me.
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