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All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

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Old 05-11-2016, 11:51 AM   #46
jstiver09
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

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Originally Posted by Behslayer View Post
If we can get a Roller shooting good groups at 25' with an 11/32" with good penetration, with improved sight picture, with Zilch recoil, with very fast shaft speed, which is not terribly complex to load, which you can also use at half power without bands flopping in your face, which weighs less, and did I say has Zilch Recoil and shoots Faster than a classic banded gun, will that be good?
Hell ya it would be...and I would buy it in a heartbeat.
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Old 05-11-2016, 12:00 PM   #47
Snapper Mangler
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

Either way you want to put it, I don't see anyone else putting in the time effort and money like Majd to prove Majd otherwise on his experiences with rollers. , or any type of gun for that matter. Until then...
And please let's not lose this thread like the last one
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Old 05-11-2016, 01:25 PM   #48
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

Guys ... this is just a test so let's not all get all excited and jump over each other. I am sure there are some roller setups that shoot great ... I hope I don't sound like I am dissing rollers or anything like that ... the thing is that they just cannot compete with a good classic setup. Maybe if we go down to a 60cm gun things will change ... but at least for an 82cm gun the results were inferior to a classic setup. Maybe if this was an invert roller or if Alemmani made it ... things would be different. But at least with the 20 or more roller guns that I have tried there just was no advantage. One of the roller setups I tested in this test is actually better than 90% of the roller setups I have previously tried. The best performing roller guns I tried (performance wise) were invert rollers. I have tons of european friends that build and develop roller guns and I am in contact with them all the time and we share information and data. Victor from Abellan has a very nice little invert roller that really pushes a shaft fast ... similar to a classic setup ... but I need to test it for myself. I have another swiss friend Alfonso that probably has the most radical roller design that uses proprietary flat bands and some really high tech pulleys and rollers ... his claims seem incredible ... but until I try that gun or I see video of it doing accuracy testing and penetration testing ... it is just a design. Rollers might still be able to improve and if anything the idea of this test was to show some flaws that need some design changes to make things better. What many people don't realize is that classic gun design has improved dramatically the past 3 or 4 years. If you want to show an advantage of roller guns you need to compare them to today's classic guns not the ones of a few years ago.

If there is a roller gun out there anywhere in the world that performs better than a classic setup ... please inform me about it as I would be very happy to buy it and test it. My criteria for "perform better" is simple ... shoot equal or more accurately ... have equal or more penetration ... have equal or more flat shooting. I am willing to accept any complexity in loading or additional time to load ... also willing to accept a ridiculously high price. If someone out there has seen or heard of such a gun ... please let the secret out and so all spearos gain from it. I am willing to accept this challenge so long as there are no strings attached to how the test results come out. I think we can rule an Alemmani gun out of that one so let's see who else would take the challenge.
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Old 05-11-2016, 01:57 PM   #49
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

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JPC, Geez quit askin me to do your searches. I'm busy in here. Look that shit up. Rollerguns. Facebook, Youtube, Google, ask into some of the Facebook groups. Learn I talian. Ofcourse most are not ideal? Are most Spearguns Ideal? The Majority of Spearguns sold are for the intro market. But saying that they all shoot low or there are not Rollers which can outperform Classic band guns is a little strange. I wish it were not so. Then I could be happy as a clam making 3-4 band classic guns. Me personally I have limited interest in Medium sized Rollers. I don't see them offering much advantage over a good 2 band classic gun. I do see the smaller end as being advantageous where viz is limited so small gunstocks are required. Also for particular hunting like up here where you can power up for Bass and power down for Tautog/Fluke on the same dive. My own interests are primarily in cracking the code of the Bluewater Roller. That is where I see potentially UUge benefit in eliminating Recoil and how that alone can effect design and speargun performance. If we can get a Roller shooting good groups at 25' with an 11/32" with good penetration, with improved sight picture, with Zilch recoil, with very fast shaft speed, which is not terribly complex to load, which you can also use at half power without bands flopping in your face, which weighs less, and did I say has Zilch Recoil and shoots Faster than a classic banded gun, will that be good?
Jon, your ability take these comments personal is uncanny. As a fan of your guns and your contributions to this sport I hope you can step back and relax.

I'm sorry I put so much pressure on you. I have searched extensively. I have not found a video that proves those aspects of the guns you claim. That does not mean they do not exist but since you spoke so highly of their performance I would have thought you would have had a link to at least one video with actual parameters. Not just hearsay.

I will keep searching myself as I am hugely interested in spearfishing and spearguns. I have no parameters for a roller gun. They make all sizes just like classic guns. If you want to get at what I would want to switch to one? Ok, I'll play. Bands flying all over the damn place is certainly a no no for me. I'm using it for spearfishing, that's a nightmare. Unlike Majd I will not take more loading sequences. You always seem to reference 25' shots and tuna. I rather enjoy talking about the design through and through. Comparing a classic and roller of the same size is most appropriate. That can be a 100cm for all I care. I think what everyone in the entire world looks for is more power and accuracy out of the same footprint. There are tradeoff's everywhere and I'd be happy to point out some I'd take when that gun arrives.
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Old 05-11-2016, 04:25 PM   #50
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

JPC. Sorry, I had machines running. Look up Roisub. Look up Alemanni. Soriasub, etc....... Look up key terms you are interested in if it's speed, look up key words together like "mtr/sec" and "rollerguns" or "inverted" or "poliplast" etc in different languages. Be thorough you'll find a shitload of stuff in Greek, Russian, and Italian. Then go through it and through it and through it. You'll find out there's more testing going on than you knew about. You will see 28, 29, 30, 32mtr/sec. Speeds which we have not been able to achieve with any Classic band guns. If you are really interested, spend 12 hours scrolling through sites in Greek, Russian, and Italian tonight.

We'll talk more about it tomorrow when you can add something.

I do always reference 25' shots and tuna and wahoo. That is what I like to hunt and what I make guns for.
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Old 05-11-2016, 06:16 PM   #51
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

Na, I think I'll add a few things now.

1. Those speeds have been reached by classic band guns.
2. You don't need to learn Italian to search "The Internet"
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:13 PM   #52
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

32mtr/sec by a classic gun? That's a bold statement Seņor. (and I'm not talking about the first mtr of flight...)

How's this test tank at Omersub?
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:50 PM   #53
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

Worth seeing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIUC7RpI4JM

48mtr/sec..

If you look through some of the data, many guns will have high mtr/sec during the first mtr. The general rule is the average over 4mtrs. this is what is reffered to generally as Shaft speed. I don't know of any Classic band Guns which have a shaft speed of over 28mtr/sec using the generally accepted definition. If you look at some of the data around air guns, they can start off with very high shaft speeds. I do see some overall impressive air guns if you snoop around. This one is quite cool.
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Old 05-11-2016, 10:29 PM   #54
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

Using downrange velocity as the standard indicates that a lot of the variation in performance comes from shaft oscillation, yeah? Otherwise you'd just measure muzzle velocity + shaft dimensions.

Spearq8, your tests are a pretty amazing resource. I'm in the process of switching guns (only use one gun at a time to cover everything, previously was a RA130) and I'm testing a bleutec raptor vs. a very similar NZ built gun with that 2 x 14mm / 7.5mm x 1500 shaft combo. Power is ridiculous after the RA.
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Old 05-11-2016, 10:52 PM   #55
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

Can you guys stop posting and hide this thread until my pathos roller gun sells?
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:32 PM   #56
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

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Using downrange velocity as the standard indicates that a lot of the variation in performance comes from shaft oscillation, yeah? Otherwise you'd just measure muzzle velocity + shaft dimensions.



Spearq8, your tests are a pretty amazing resource. I'm in the process of switching guns (only use one gun at a time to cover everything, previously was a RA130) and I'm testing a bleutec raptor vs. a very similar NZ built gun with that 2 x 14mm / 7.5mm x 1500 shaft combo. Power is ridiculous after the RA.


Where did you find a raptor in NZ?
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Old 05-12-2016, 12:15 AM   #57
Mullins
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

It's a friend's, if it works well I'll probably buy one and set it up identically when I go to Greece later this year. At the moment though it looks like I'll go with the other gun. Essentially the same performance but easier to maintain and without a couple of the Bleutec design issues (line release pressure on sear, welded trigger mech, corrosion).
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Old 05-12-2016, 12:22 AM   #58
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

What's the other speargun?


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Old 05-12-2016, 12:30 AM   #59
Mullins
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

http://durville-spearfishing.myshopify.com currently with a RA handle.
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Old 05-12-2016, 01:34 AM   #60
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

I think to get a shaft moving at 48 m/s you need to have a 12mm or thicker shaft. Maybe the instant it leaves the muzzle it can have high velocity but I think more relevant is the velocity at 3 or 4 meters and how well it keeps that velocity at distance. Also important is accuracy ... it needs to have controlled accuracy. I wonder how they tested velocity as I have yet to see a way to do it other than video and sound ... and am not too sure that is accurate.

@Mullins ... The Raptor is an excellent gun and you can set it up with a really nice configuration. Check out the tests I did on that a few years back, I know a lot of people that are using that configuration with great success. You are correct about the trigger ... good news is that Bleutec seems to have fixed that issue with their last triggers. They have moved the line release to the back of the shaft sear where line release tension does not affect trigger pull. I like companies that look into complaints or weaknesses in their gear and fix them! The Bleutec roller trigger is an awesome trigger, and now that they have improved the line release it has to be one of the best reverse trigger choices out there!

@Smesh ... I know what you mean ... I bought 3 roller kits myself. I have to give some credit to Pathos for designing the bladder though. In my case I moved the bladder back and had a mechanical connection to the barrel (used one of the two screws to go through the bladder). But the way they routed the line around the roller really stops any band tangles. They dropped the ball a little by making the front line guide a little tight and sloppy but that is a few seconds fix. If you like roller guns on rail guns this is a great way to make a pipe gun double action as previously it was quite difficult to attach double action hooks on a pipe gun as you could not drill through the pipe and rupture the air seal. This was quite well thought. Now if someone could just figure out a way around preventing the wishbone from pushing the shaft down on exit ... this could change things!

One thing I would be interested to know is how quality of bearings affect roller performance. Do the bearings really matter in transferring load? The Pathos rollers seem to work well but I have some bearings from Ermessub that seem to roll with much less effort. They are Nitronic SS ... but SS can rust so not sure if that is best either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsFF2AqYD7M
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