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Old 03-23-2017, 08:28 AM   #46
Nix
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

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Originally Posted by North Star View Post
If any country has 20% of the people below the poverty rate, it is due to socialistic policies put in place by the government. The solution is not more socialistic policies. The solution is to allow capitalism and the free market to function and to thereby liberate the people to climb up out of that poverty so they can afford their own healthcare..

I have traveled, yes. And while they may spend less per capita than we do, the quality of care is far below ours by virtually every measure.





Um, no. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of God. Matt 5:3 Poverty is never commended as being virtuous anywhere in the Bible. Poverty of spirit is humility, which is everywhere commended in the Bible.



Because the military, police, and court system is the one thing that the Government alone is charged with doing (Romans 13) and is the proper duty of the state. The military, police, and courts are not economic activities and therefore are not to be part of the free market.
So you think US healthcare is that much better, if better at all than most of Europe. Look at the data. A bunch of countries with great healthcare that costs less and it is not free market. I guess the education systems they have don't hurt in managing things either.

You must be really na´ve to believe there is one cause of poverty. There is no single magic pill to curing poverty. However, many countries have come out of poverty. Look at the Singapore model. You think socialism is honestly a bigger factor than Corruption in India. You can find that during an economic downturn in the developed world, the tourism industries of many countries can suffer badly leaving many displaced. The same can be said for so many industries. Don't try to simplify poverty, it is honestly insulting to the poor.


Proverbs 21:13 ESV / 21 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Whoever closes his ear to the cry of the poor will himself call out and not be answered.


Deuteronomy 15:11 ESV / 196 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’

Mark 10:21 ESV / 138 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Proverbs 22:9 ESV / 40 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Whoever has a bountiful eye will be blessed, for he shares his bread with the poor.
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Old 03-23-2017, 01:54 PM   #47
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

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Originally Posted by Nix View Post
So you think US healthcare is that much better, if better at all than most of Europe. Look at the data. A bunch of countries with great healthcare that costs less and it is not free market. I guess the education systems they have don't hurt in managing things either.

You must be really na´ve to believe there is one cause of poverty. There is no single magic pill to curing poverty. However, many countries have come out of poverty. Look at the Singapore model. You think socialism is honestly a bigger factor than Corruption in India. You can find that during an economic downturn in the developed world, the tourism industries of many countries can suffer badly leaving many displaced. The same can be said for so many industries. Don't try to simplify poverty, it is honestly insulting to the poor.


Proverbs 21:13 ESV / 21 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Whoever closes his ear to the cry of the poor will himself call out and not be answered.


Deuteronomy 15:11 ESV / 196 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’

Mark 10:21 ESV / 138 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Proverbs 22:9 ESV / 40 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Whoever has a bountiful eye will be blessed, for he shares his bread with the poor.
I obey and practice the exhortations and commands in every one of those verses.

Every one of those verses is a call to those who have money to VOLUNTARILY give money to the poor they personally know and have personal contact with. It is NOT an authorization for the government to forcibly redistribute wealth at the point of a gun, which is armed robbery.

You are always ready to show compassion with other people's money, but not your own. You want the Government to steal from others, give to the poor, and then feel virtuous for cheering it on. That is a cheap and shoddy virtue at best, and really it is complicity in the crime of armed theft by the Government.

It is Government forcing the redistribution of wealth that is the disincentive for private charity. "Hey, let the G take care of the poor - they tax me enough to do it" is the attitude that those robbed by the government have - while the G redistributes the money in a way to line their own pockets, and keep the poor poor, to keep their gravy train rolling - and you justify it and want more of it - it is your position that is immoral, not mine.

And I clearly stated that there was more than on cause of poverty in my previous post - do you even read what I write?

Socialism IS corruption - pure and simple. And yes, corruption in capitalistic countries can be a huge problem - but the solution to corruption in capitalistic countries is not the introduction of socialism - it is to restore the rule of law.

And if there is an economic downturn? Should that make people poor? No, not if they saved like they should have when things were booming. Go to the ant thou sluggard, consider her ways and be wise... read the rest in Proverbs 6:6-11

And by the way - if all those countries with socialized medicine have such great healthcare, then why do they flock to the US for treatment? Thousands of Canadians come here, because there are no waiting lists and no rationing of healthcare. I could list dozens of horror stories of shoddy socialized health care due to under funding and rationing and overcrowding due to over utilization - but all you look at is cost per capita - a very poor measure of anything.
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nec timor nec temeritas (neither fear nor foolhardiness.)

Last edited by North Star; 03-23-2017 at 02:03 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 05:14 AM   #48
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

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Sweet!! We found the conspiracy theory...yahh!! So does anyone here believe that education is valuable?
No conspiracy required. It's the Other Golden Rule- "He who has the gold makes the rules." Also stated as "He who pays the piper names the tune."

The government and its entities are not disinterested parties in education. They have an agenda just like any corporation does. Who needs any conspiracy?


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Really though, we can agree that governments are generally inefficient in managing cost, logistics, distribution, service and administration compared to the private sector. If we can return to the case of healthcare, how can the free market establish an equilibrium price for healthcare that does not price-out a large portion of the population of any country. The supply would have to increase significantly since demand will not change significantly downward. In order to increase supply, the barriers and cost of medical care would need to be reduced heavily.

If I were to think radically, I would say that cost would need to be reduced by removing regulation that prohibits generic medicine and machine use. This would go against established law and be difficult to remove but generic drugs and machines would significantly reduce cost.

The other main factor I see in increasing needed supply is by reducing regulatory barriers to entry.Acknowledging medical practitioners and allowing work permits for medical workers from other countries could assist in having more practioners at a cheaper price.

Another big hurdle could be investment incentive. Have a reduced taxation or tax free status for medical institutions and this could definitely increase local and foreign investment in Healthcare.

In all fairness insurance needs to be secondary since premiums are charged against cost. If the average market price can be reduced then the price moves closer toward full provision or provision at an acceptable percentage.

That said, I sincerely doubt that it is legally possible to eliminate laws protecting pharmaceutical copyrights. I also doubt that a huge amount of foreign medical practitioners will be welcomed, especially since citizens will be at the losing end.

If someone else sees a path toward reducing healthcare costs enough to make it accessible to the majority of the population, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. My education is in finance and economics, so healthcare provision is not my specialty. My largest assumption is that we want a system in which people don't die in large numbers due to lack of treatment.
Deregulate. Eliminate Medicare and Medicaid, which are huge, costly, ponderous institutions which are gumming up medical care and consuming ever-increasing billions.
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Old Yesterday, 07:53 AM   #49
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

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Originally Posted by mepps1 View Post
No conspiracy required. It's the Other Golden Rule- "He who has the gold makes the rules." Also stated as "He who pays the piper names the tune."

The government and its entities are not disinterested parties in education. They have an agenda just like any corporation does. Who needs any conspiracy?




Deregulate. Eliminate Medicare and Medicaid, which are huge, costly, ponderous institutions which are gumming up medical care and consuming ever-increasing billions.
Medicare and Medicaid are definitely inefficient. If the US is spending more that most countries in Europe per capita without actually having free healthcare for all, something is terribly wrong with these systems. I can agree on that.

There is something we must also admit about the free market system of economics. It has assumptions:
-Freedom of entry and exit (low barriers to entry)
-Free market for all inputs to the market (eg no minimum wage, easy entry and exit into the medical profession)
-Complete Symmetrical Information of the market (Consumers know as much as providers)
-Rational buying decisions (consumers use information and not emotion to buy)
-High number of players in the market (eg large number of players always available for medical emergencies within reach of the market)
-No collusion between market players (Hospitals have independent ownership, no unions)

De-regulation can bring down medical costs if done in a practical way. The biggest concern is whether the majority of the population can then afford medical care. Is there a single country that has a 100% free market healthcare system that works. Not really. So in fact we are proposing to create a healthcare industry based on theory, without meeting the assumptions of a free market.

Since everyone here seems to think that healthcare is not a right and neither is education, then why is it that so many countries that are successful do this.
Countries like - Canada, Austria, Belarus, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom. These are just a handful. Most of Latin America and Asia do as well to different degrees.

The rest of the world is not crumbling. Perhaps it seems that way to those outside of those countries.
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Old Yesterday, 09:06 AM   #50
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

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Originally Posted by Nix View Post

Since everyone here seems to think that healthcare is not a right and neither is education, then why is it that so many countries that are successful do this.

Countries like - Canada, Austria, Belarus, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom. These are just a handful. Most of Latin America and Asia do as well to different degrees.



The rest of the world is not crumbling. Perhaps it seems that way to those outside of those countries.

Not everyone. There is a absolute sense in keeping your population healthy and highly educated. Like you're saying, most of the world functions this way and for most it's working good. Ofcourse it has also to do with the financial state of the nation you're in and how efficient they can handle the incoming taxes.
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Old Yesterday, 09:28 AM   #51
Nix
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

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Not everyone. There is a absolute sense in keeping your population healthy and highly educated. Like you're saying, most of the world functions this way and for most it's working good. Ofcourse it has also to do with the financial state of the nation you're in and how efficient they can handle the incoming taxes.
Exactly, if the government buys medical equipment, services, medicines etc in huge bulk, the potential to negotiate better prices is huge. If it is inefficient and corrupt, it can be worse. There is definitely a benefit to the economy to have more healthy workers. If that benefit exceeds the cost, then providing healthcare is profitable.
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