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Diving Safety, Accidents and Incidents Post here to discuss accidents, incidents, ideas, gear, or anything else to improve spearfishing safety. Memorials and condolences threads should be placed in that separate forum. |
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03-03-2014, 07:08 PM | #1 | |
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Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident
THIS THREAD WAS CREATED FOR EDUCATIONAL DISCUSSION.
RIP threads are usually very positive and reflect on the good things about the lost soul. Educational Accident or Incident analysis posts and threads can become quite confrontational and judgmental. Often members will not post thoughts and questions on RIP threads because of concerns about perceived disrespect to the family and friends of the deceased. In the new approach to these situations, we will start separate (but linked) threads and move "accident analysis" posts to these directly related "Educational Discussion" threads. The content can be diverse and we will have tolerance for questions and comments on people's minds that can be somewhat controversial in order to hopefully educate all readers. Please keep the discussion civil. Quote:
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"Spearing is the path to enlightenment." --- Lao Tzu “Live this day as if it will be your last. Remember that you will only find 'tomorrow' on the calendars of fools.” ---- Success Unlimited Author Og Mandino b.1923 - d.1996 Last edited by SpearMax; 03-10-2014 at 08:58 AM. |
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03-08-2014, 08:31 AM | #2 |
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".
in shanty let me sum it up for you briefly, not sure what kind of gas they were breathing but for the most part in spearfishing and diving deep on scuba your best to be on air at about the 240' and under. Reason is as you read roc's report when he was down to 500 psi and thought the air bubbles could've just been from the oil rig he came up and did his deco and then surfaced. One of the things you can do when you're diving air to deep depths is you can come up from 240 feet really fast and once you hit like 110 feet then you slow down because the air bubbles are very very small that you built up, at this point when you Breathe bubbles out you do not want to pass them on your ascent.
Now the other thing is when you descend down and you know you're going to dive deep, you want to take as minimal breaths as you can, the more air you inhale the more nitrogen you inhale. Which also affects nitrogen narcosis, in other words if you would descend extremely fast and only take like 2 to 3 breaths to 200 feet or so, one you have a lot of air in your tank, two you can think clearly because you do not have nitrogen in you to get nitrogen narcosis to a degree. Now you never know what actually happened but I've recovered numerous amount of divers in Lake superior, it was simple money back 25 ta 30 years ago, I would simply just go down there Anchorline and then go on either side of the wreck if they weren't on the wreck, and there they were all peaceful with no air in their bottle most of the time. Sometimes with the night before that rock described to a degree if you're not hydrated no sleep and a few other factors, even though you've accomplished to dive Deepair, air can be toxic at 220' and you can pass out. So as I read the dive I would say that he passed out hit the bottom and was lucky enough to have his regulator in and kept breathing. at this point you are not doing anything vigorous so you're taking very small amount of Air in. He woke up look at his gauge and shot to the surface. whereas if you would've shot to 110 feet and slowed his ascent he might not have been unconscious when he hit the surface. But he would definitely have to take another tank and go down to decompress or go to the chamber. And the thing is you don't know how to take care of the situation when you wake up because it seems like you were only down for a minute or two. I have lost some good friends in Lake superior because after they learned how to deep air dive and had very many successful dives, it happens all of a sudden. Not everyone can do this it's part of your physics and how determined you are to be able to dive deep air. Myself I can go to 300'and it's actually pretty simple as you know once you get to depth you just start flying just like a jet, and then you hit the elevator button, then you check the situation out and start coming back to comfortable safe depth. I have over 1000 Deepair dives on wrecks in Lake superior, yanked up over 100 divers that didn't make it, 90% only had a single tank. The only reason I had a sheriff's card is because I was a diver that could find divers and retrieve them. As soon as they decided that they want you to do a video and then retrieve the body, I was done, I was not going to start doing Trimix dives spending a hell of a lot of time down at deep depths, take my boat out and my time, it cost too much money for what they were willing to pay. So actually they wanted to learn and try to have evidence on how divers died, and it's plain and simple the same thing that you read in a book in the 70s when you learn how to dive, and to what your physiology is. inshanity I hope that gives you a little insight as there are a few more scenarios, just one which has nothing to do with this one but if you low-pressure inflator hose was not hooked up and you just kept sinking, and the reason I say this is when I pulled these divers up there were over a dozen that didn't have the low-pressure inflator hose connected. All in all all diving can be safe, whether it is deep air, Trimix, or one breath, just make sure that everything feels fine when you're in the water.
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Kehloken Last edited by kehloken; 03-08-2014 at 08:43 AM. |
03-08-2014, 07:06 PM | #3 | |
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing....
Quote:
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MICHAEL C. BARNETTE ASSOCIATION OF UNDERWATER EXPLORERS ENCYCLOPEDIA OF FLORIDA SHIPWRECKS - VOLUME I: ATLANTIC COAST |
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03-08-2014, 07:22 PM | #4 |
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".
Like a Las Vegas buffet..... Just don't know where to start.
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03-09-2014, 08:59 AM | #5 | |
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".
Quote:
My condolences to the family and friends. A RIP thread is probably not the appropriate place to discuss diving techniques, but I thought I should offer the following: I've never taken ANY technical training. But the advice above is not consistent with my personal experience. Deliberately restricting normal breathing (to two or three breaths), while working hard to descend as fast as possible to 200 ft on air, is not what I would recommend as a way to avoid narcosis, promote clear thinking and avoid other diving problems. In fact, rapid descents are often correlated with increased narcosis. High work loads (i.e., swimming hard) are correlated with increased CO2 production. High levels of CO2 can cause mental impairment (working synergistically with the nitrogen impairment) and can also make the diver uncomfortable, prone to panic and could even incapacitate a diver if excessive. Drastically reducing the rate of breathing will almost certainly cause CO2 build up. So swimming really hard, deliberately reducing the breathing rate to an extreme degree and descending very rapidly (in the head down position) while breathing air to a depth that is 2 atmospheres past the recommended recreational depths...is not advice I would give to ensure that you can "think clearly".
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03-09-2014, 09:18 AM | #6 |
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".
Seriously Jim? I said that same thing during some of the RiP threads for Michael/OC and you didn't have a problem with it at all. I still have the PM's from you regarding it. Was that because one was free diving and this is SCUBA?
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03-09-2014, 01:21 PM | #7 | |
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".
Quote:
Good question I am sure Jim will answer. Not to derail the discussion too much, but your question prompts a question to you and other posters: Should a dedicated "Incident Discussion" thread be started whenever something like this happens whether it be free dive like Michael Burton or scuba like Michael Reed? I am about to launch a major initiative on spearboard regarding accidents, incidents, deaths and injuries as well as safety involving Divers Alert Network, Dive Wise, Terry Maas and others. When someone dies we often get many outsiders such as family and friends taking a peek at the board and sometimes joining and commenting. As you know RIP threads are usually very positive and reflect on the good things about the lost soul. Accident analysis posts and threads can become quite confrontational and judgmental. I recall the recent thread I posted about the father who took his young son cave diving where both of them died and some of the spearboard comments were fairly harsh. For example, in the new approach I have in mind as applied to this thread, if I did start separate (but linked) threads, I would move "accident analysis" posts like those made by kehloken, me, aue-mike, jfjf and others to that directly related "Incident Discussion" thread. If I did that maybe the discussion would move forward to educate all readers because people's concerns about perceived disrespect to the family and friends might be lessened possibly. I value your opinion on this touchy subject and recall the excellent things you did when Michael Burton passed like setting up separate family fundraising benefit threads. Thanks, Tony
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"Spearing is the path to enlightenment." --- Lao Tzu “Live this day as if it will be your last. Remember that you will only find 'tomorrow' on the calendars of fools.” ---- Success Unlimited Author Og Mandino b.1923 - d.1996 Last edited by SpearMax; 03-09-2014 at 02:07 PM. |
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03-10-2014, 12:50 AM | #8 | |
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".
Quote:
Jim and I discussed in a PM. As you know, this kind of thing happens in every diver death and as I said before, it's really unfair to the families and friends of those who passed. These discussions could be had in a proper manner/place like you have now mentioned creating. I feel it's long overdue... Pull the trigger and create that other section and move this stuff so we can get back to paying tribute and well wishes. RiP Mike...
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03-08-2014, 10:59 AM | #9 |
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".
RIP, thoughts and prayers to his friends and families. Kehloken thanks for that write up for those of us that don't scuba.
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03-08-2014, 11:16 AM | #10 |
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".
thank you kehloken. i was trying to make sense of it all and you helped greatly
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03-08-2014, 02:21 PM | #11 |
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".
Thanks for the lesson! This story, and others makes me want to hang up the fins for good.
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03-08-2014, 02:50 PM | #12 |
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".
+1 x2
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03-08-2014, 05:58 PM | #13 | ||
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".
Thanks kehloken for your explanation of the possibilities, especially directed towards the freediver readers. I would like to expand a little on your comments just to clarify some points you made.
I am technical diving certified in various courses like Decompression Procedures, Solo Diving, Trimix, etc. but by no means am I an instructor or some kind of expert. My deep diving experience is fairly extensive in number of dives at various depths on air and on trimix. Regardless what I have done tech diving, I defer with great respect to the thoughts, comments and opinions of many other much more qualified and experienced people on this board like HeadHunter, aue-mike, jadairiii and other friends. There really is no such thing as proper tech dive training on the Internet. If tech diving (generally defined as scuba below 130 feet) is your passion, go out and get real training in course settings with classroom, pool and ocean sessions. There is no substitute for that knowledge and experience. However, we all read things on the Internet and much of it can be very accurate and useful for diving safety and improvement of diving and spearfishing techniques. With that preface said, here goes my two cents of expansion on kehloken’s comments which expands on three deep diving dangers: 1.)Carbon Dioxide Excess - Hypercapnia 2.)Nitrogen Narcosis – Rapture of the Deep 3.)Oxygen Toxicity - Hyperoxia Quote:
“Skip Breathing: In an effort to reduce air consumption, many divers hypoventilate or skip breathe. This involves extremely slow breathing. The diver exhales fully and then holds his breath "out", keeping his lungs empty for a period of time before breathing in. Hypoventilation increases the carbon dioxide level in a diver's lungs. Skip breathing can be dangerous because of the risk of hypercapnia.” Quote:
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"Spearing is the path to enlightenment." --- Lao Tzu “Live this day as if it will be your last. Remember that you will only find 'tomorrow' on the calendars of fools.” ---- Success Unlimited Author Og Mandino b.1923 - d.1996 Last edited by SpearMax; 03-09-2014 at 09:07 AM. |
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03-08-2014, 06:00 PM | #14 | |
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".
Another important thing to learn about in deep diving is how Nitrogen Narcosis affects you personally. Here is some discussion of this subject:
Quote:
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03-08-2014, 06:01 PM | #15 | ||
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".
I agree with kehloken that there is not yet enough information as to what physical or medical calamity caused Mike’s loss. Perhaps, an autopsy will determine if a heart attack, air embolism, drowning, or other cause happened, but often diver autopsies do not reveal a specific cause and the passing is listed as a drowning. His buddies made a gallant effort to try and save him by diving down after him and by seeking help from the rig personnel.
To expand on kehloken’s post below that says “air can be toxic at 220' and you can pass out” Oxygen Toxicity is the culprit here. Quote:
May Mike rest in eternal peace. Good luck and be safe in your diving, Tony |
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