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View Poll Results: what is the best rigging line for a big bluewater line ?
Stainless cable 8 23.53%
Dyneema 11 32.35%
Mono 15 44.12%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-21-2016, 08:12 AM   #31
spearq8
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Re: Best bluewater shooting line rigging ?

Guys let's stop this ... spectra has a very low melting point ... less than 150c. It melts and will ball up lines that are thin and used for spearfishing. For sailing they are using multi stranded lines with different fibers mixed in the spectra and that is why it is better to tape up the ends and is much thicker where a ball would look ridiculous and probably not be effective. Some sailing applications they also use Nylon ... and they don't heat up the ends there either. I spent quite a long time trying to make the ultimate spearfishing with several tennis racket string companies with a line that behaves like mono but is tough and resilient like spectra, but without the problems of kinking and band tangling that will increase with spectra. If you look at some of the envelopes made with a spectra mix ... those things are almost impossible to tear. You can formulate a spearfishing line that gives you all what you want, it is just that nobody has bothered to do it.

By the way my brother uses a 1.4mm spectra line from Salvimar and he crimps it. It did break on him with a dogtooth that tied up on the reef, but the break was not at the crimp. This is why I am thinking that a crimp might work with 1.7mm or 1.9mm spectra.
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Old 11-21-2016, 08:38 AM   #32
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Re: Best bluewater shooting line rigging ?

Been using Benthic lines 1.9 reels and 1.4 guns. I never have had a break or knot come undone. Shoot into rocks and wrecks a lot and got tired of changing Mono constantly. Never seem to have frayed line with the Benthic. Does not kink, unlike the white Dyneema I used to use.
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Old 11-21-2016, 08:54 AM   #33
Castronova
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Re: Best bluewater shooting line rigging ?

I like using cable in the blue. Too many sharks to risk losing the fish and the $200 shaft tip combo. Second choice would be mono which I don't mind either. I've had spectra tangle nearly 100% of the times I've tried it.

As far as tangles... I think dealing with any fish that can drown you it shouldn't matter what line you use. Always put a kill shot in the fish, or have a buddy do it, before you get to the shooting line, period.
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Old 11-21-2016, 09:32 AM   #34
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Re: Best bluewater shooting line rigging ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
Guys let's stop this ... spectra has a very low melting point ... less than 150c. It melts and will ball up lines that are thin and used for spearfishing. For sailing they are using multi stranded lines with different fibers mixed in the spectra and that is why it is better to tape up the ends and is much thicker where a ball would look ridiculous and probably not be effective. Some sailing applications they also use Nylon ... and they don't heat up the ends there either. I spent quite a long time trying to make the ultimate spearfishing with several tennis racket string companies with a line that behaves like mono but is tough and resilient like spectra, but without the problems of kinking and band tangling that will increase with spectra. If you look at some of the envelopes made with a spectra mix ... those things are almost impossible to tear. You can formulate a spearfishing line that gives you all what you want, it is just that nobody has bothered to do it.

By the way my brother uses a 1.4mm spectra line from Salvimar and he crimps it. It did break on him with a dogtooth that tied up on the reef, but the break was not at the crimp. This is why I am thinking that a crimp might work with 1.7mm or 1.9mm spectra.

In terms of breaking strength and crimps, I know you have said you have the gear to test this, so I think if you find the time, a lot of us would be very thankful if you shared your findings:-)

A few days back, I ordered a 300kg digital hanging scale and a ratchet strap (the ones you use to tie down stuff on trailers) to make a ghetto test rig and will make some comparisons between mono, tennis string and dyneema. I just don't really have any proper brand name dyneema here (mine could indeed be loaded with nylon as it is just some local, Chinese stuff).

Last edited by Diving Gecko; 11-21-2016 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 11-21-2016, 09:47 AM   #35
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Re: Best bluewater shooting line rigging ?

If it were only that simple, but there's too many variables who would have guessed that a 100lb YFT would try to get on my shoulders trying to escape an 850lb Marlin. Luckily I didn't get tangled up there or if I did I would sure be hoping I wasn't using Cable. But I have been wrapped up before and cut loose a fish and been thankful I wasn't using Cable. I had shot a nice King Mackerel. out of nowhere it turned into a Shark frenzy with several sharks chasing the King Mackerel. The king cam flying back at me to hide behind me, and a line got snagged on my weight belt and the next thing, the king is swimming fast circles around me. Nightmare situation. I cut the mono shooting line and swam free and the fish was eaten. This was a mix of sharks including a 10' tiger.

Regarding melting lines. Some lines need higher temps. I melt a lot of lines in here. Some I use a Torch.

One thing I've noticed is that there is a relationship between Line Guide, Position on Muzzle, Band Diameter, Muzzle diameter, # of wraps, position of connection on shaft, which dictate the position of the Loop of the shooting line and determine the likelihood of a band tangle in the shooting line. Sometimes a gun that tangles frequently with Mono will not tangle simply by switching to a different mono which is more supple i.e. standard vs. Momoii, or by switching to a Dyneema/braid, or cable. Cable is least likely to tangle because it is heavy and the movement and loops are limited by the extra weight. A slow motion sideview of the same gun using different shooting lines is very interesting.
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Old 11-21-2016, 11:24 AM   #36
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Re: Best bluewater shooting line rigging ?

The biggest culprits I have seen so far causing tangles with the stiff dyneema is first, when the bands "grab" the shooting line and pull all the wraps up to the muzzle together at once. This can be easily avoided by using a tab that directs the shooting line from the line release away from the bands or simply by loading your bands and then making a quick check ensure that you didn't get any shooting line wedged between bands during the loading process. This obviously can also happen with any kind of shooting line but is more likely with a fiber. The 2nd thing I have seen happen is the line getting wedged down into an enclosed track during wrapping/loading. Same as first issue, can happen to any line as well.

And to clarify, the stiff line is 100% UHMWPE (Ultra-high-molecular-weight polyethylene, AKA trademarked as dyneema, spectra, etc.) with a 100% UHMWPE sleeve and the melting point is supposed to be around 140 C
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Old 11-22-2016, 07:44 AM   #37
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Re: Best bluewater shooting line rigging ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castronova View Post
I like using cable in the blue. Too many sharks to risk losing the fish and the $200 shaft tip combo. Second choice would be mono which I don't mind either. I've had spectra tangle nearly 100% of the times I've tried it.

As far as tangles... I think dealing with any fish that can drown you it shouldn't matter what line you use. Always put a kill shot in the fish, or have a buddy do it, before you get to the shooting line, period.
Ditto.
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Old 11-22-2016, 08:08 AM   #38
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Re: Best bluewater shooting line rigging ?

I prefer the 2.2mm Benthic for reels, but I always thought it would be cool to spool bluewater reels with 1.9mm and run it straight to the shaft. This would eliminate 2 connections and swivel, which I consider the points at greatest risk of failure. ...really you'd just have a knot to the shaft left to make sure was solid, and I've never had one come untied. I would never consider this for a reef setup, but if you're only planning to take a couple fish per day, the line is easily cut and retied to remove a difficult fish. You could also toggle between 1 and 2 wraps on a whim. ...maybe that's a terrible idea, I'm not sure, I haven't tried it. The biggest downside I see is that I really prefer handling the thicker reel line.
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Old 11-22-2016, 10:49 AM   #39
Triton
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Re: Best bluewater shooting line rigging ?

I haven't tried crimping the line but I'll give it a shot next time I get out (will be a while with 2 newborns at home). If anyone else tries crimps I'd love to hear how well it works
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Old 11-22-2016, 04:28 PM   #40
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Re: Best bluewater shooting line rigging ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.P View Post
I prefer the 2.2mm Benthic for reels, but I always thought it would be cool to spool bluewater reels with 1.9mm and run it straight to the shaft. This would eliminate 2 connections and swivel, which I consider the points at greatest risk of failure. ...really you'd just have a knot to the shaft left to make sure was solid, and I've never had one come untied. I would never consider this for a reef setup, but if you're only planning to take a couple fish per day, the line is easily cut and retied to remove a difficult fish. You could also toggle between 1 and 2 wraps on a whim. ...maybe that's a terrible idea, I'm not sure, I haven't tried it. The biggest downside I see is that I really prefer handling the thicker reel line.
problem i see here would be the line will get all twisted without a swivel when a fish is shot and spins the line. that can be cumbersome to deal with.
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Old 11-22-2016, 05:02 PM   #41
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Re: Best bluewater shooting line rigging ?

I actually stopped using swivels completely a few years ago, switched to a knot connection and never looked back. No major issues noted.
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Old 11-22-2016, 05:33 PM   #42
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Re: Best bluewater shooting line rigging ?

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problem i see here would be the line will get all twisted without a swivel when a fish is shot and spins the line. that can be cumbersome to deal with.
Most people I know are using a slip knot instead of a swivel anyways, and the problems aren't too bad. My thought would basically be the same...except without the connection. I do like the slip knot for reef, but in bluewater, it seems to pay to have less things that can go wrong.
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Old 12-02-2016, 03:00 AM   #43
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Re: Best bluewater shooting line rigging ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
[...]
I am also thinking that maybe it is tying a bulky knot what is causing shaft drop, I want to see if I can get away with a crimp. Maybe burning a good ball at the end and then crimping. Anyone try that?
I just tried...

I built a small test rig for testing my Chinese sourced dyneema and possibly some rubber force tests, too.
Very simple stuff. It's just an alu rectangular profile with a digital 300kg scale bolted onto one end and a ratchet strap thingmajing onto the other (pics attached below).

I also wondered about crimping Dyneema so I did one quick test on some 2mm dyneema I intend to use on a reel. It is a pretty stiff line but it has a sleeve and a core - so this might have impacted the result I got. But while it took 179kg to break the 2mm line when it was knotted, it only took 80kg for it to fail when crimped. BTW, at the 179kg test it still broke at the knot, so the line itself is probably even stronger and plenty strong for me.

For the one crimp test I did, I crimped it tight with both ends of the crimp flared and burned the end into a ball of sorts. What happened, it seems, was that the line got a whole lot thinner with the load and then it started slipping in the crimp. When the ball reached the end of the crimp, it didn't really slide through - but it did break off the line and then the rest of the line slipped through completely.

There could be a range of reasons why it failed on me so much earlier than with the knot. Maybe I needed to crimp tighter or maybe this line is too loose in its weave to start with.

Also, I read that while you can kinda get Dyneema to ball up, the melted Dyneema doesn't form a hard lump like nylon would. Maybe that has something to say, too.
Also, on the subject of whether your dyneema is mixed with nylon: If you can pull threads from the melting line, then it is not 100% pure Dyneema according to the same source.

Finally, and you guys know this I am sure, but the loop size seems to have a big impact, too. In some tests, I just tied the 2mm dyneema around a loop of 3mm dyneema that was attached to the scale. This meant that the loop in the 2mm line was tight (a small turning radius so to speak). For those test, the line broke around 100-114kg. But then I took a carabiner with an 8mm diameter (which gave a much bigger loop) and tying the same 2mm line with the same type of knot, I got the 179kg. As said, it still broke at the knot. For full disclosure, I didn't use the carabiner when testing the crimped mono, but the way it failed by slipping, I think would be the same. I will test some more though.
Also, I am not a knot master at all, I just used some simple kinda of fishing knot for now.
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Last edited by Diving Gecko; 12-02-2016 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 12-05-2016, 10:34 AM   #44
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Re: Best bluewater shooting line rigging ?

Great info, thanks! I always use a figure eight follow through knot for my dyneema, very strong and it doesn't really look to be any larger than a crimp when pulled tight.
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Old 12-05-2016, 05:53 PM   #45
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Arrow Re: Best bluewater shooting line rigging ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diving Gecko View Post
[EDIT] The Japanese link was one I have had for ages but just did a new search and Coatesman put up a video not long ago:
http://youtu.be/zpsItnFuDyI
In his video, he mentions not being able to make an EYE SPLICE in a sheathed Dyneema line. That is not true, it just takes more work.

Here is one example where the sheath is NOT used

Cant find the one with the SHEATH USED right now but will post later.

He uses a Brummel Knot. There is a version of the knot you can tie with a fixed end so it remains thin and easy to work with for anyone that thinks its intimidating.




Resources for Dyneema and other braids

http://science.howstuffworks.com/dyneema.htm

http://www.coastalwindsports.com/WhoseLine.html

Last edited by skygear; 12-28-2016 at 11:27 PM.
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